Re: PCB&F, CSB etc.
That's the case indeed. Those sold by Dynamite are "Instant boat"
plans, so one is supposed to read his books on the subject and just
build without asking any question - Dynamite does respond though,
he's very kind and supportive -. In my opinion, however, the Chebacco
should be regarded as a special case, since those plans are very
basic indeed, with no building key at all. If it wasn't for Bill
Samson's hard work, I would say that the Chebacco couldn't be defined
as an Instant Boat...
In fact, to be entitled to get support from the head office, one has
to buy the plans, including the Instant Boats ones, from them
directly.
All this is not uncommon though. For example, I know that the
official Norwalk Island Sharpies plans are sold in several places,
but I've been told that Bruce Kirby prefers not to be contacted by
builders.
Best, Pippo
plans, so one is supposed to read his books on the subject and just
build without asking any question - Dynamite does respond though,
he's very kind and supportive -. In my opinion, however, the Chebacco
should be regarded as a special case, since those plans are very
basic indeed, with no building key at all. If it wasn't for Bill
Samson's hard work, I would say that the Chebacco couldn't be defined
as an Instant Boat...
In fact, to be entitled to get support from the head office, one has
to buy the plans, including the Instant Boats ones, from them
directly.
All this is not uncommon though. For example, I know that the
official Norwalk Island Sharpies plans are sold in several places,
but I've been told that Bruce Kirby prefers not to be contacted by
builders.
Best, Pippo
--- In bolger@y..., bgbeck55@y... wrote:
> I was surprised to read that there was no support coming for
plans
> purchased from HH Payson. From his books, I gather he doesn't deal
> with design questions. ("I just build 'em, I don't design 'em" is
the
> quote, I believe.)
The "other" side of the story can be found in "Duckworks" in an
article by Bernie Wolfard. I remember Bernie saying in his Common
Sense Newsletter that he was having trouble with the IRS and, prior
to the split, was trying to sell the business. This could be what led
to the royalty problem. Bernie says that PCB's wife, Susanne
Altenburger, didn't feel that CSD didn't fit into her
plans.
I was surprised to read that there was no support coming for plans
purchased from HH Payson. From his books, I gather he doesn't deal
with design questions. ("I just build 'em, I don't design 'em" is the
quote, I believe.)
As to the plans themselves, I just received a set of "Fishcat"
plans from PCB&F in today's mail. They are far better copies than
those I received from CSB a couple of years ago.
Hopefully, PCB&F will be on-line soon. They've had a domain name
reserved for quite some time now. The fax or snail-mail access only
is clumsy at best; especially without a printed catalog. There are
the books, of course, but many designs are not in them. Who knows
what we've been missing all these years.
article by Bernie Wolfard. I remember Bernie saying in his Common
Sense Newsletter that he was having trouble with the IRS and, prior
to the split, was trying to sell the business. This could be what led
to the royalty problem. Bernie says that PCB's wife, Susanne
Altenburger, didn't feel that CSD didn't fit into her
plans.
I was surprised to read that there was no support coming for plans
purchased from HH Payson. From his books, I gather he doesn't deal
with design questions. ("I just build 'em, I don't design 'em" is the
quote, I believe.)
As to the plans themselves, I just received a set of "Fishcat"
plans from PCB&F in today's mail. They are far better copies than
those I received from CSB a couple of years ago.
Hopefully, PCB&F will be on-line soon. They've had a domain name
reserved for quite some time now. The fax or snail-mail access only
is clumsy at best; especially without a printed catalog. There are
the books, of course, but many designs are not in them. Who knows
what we've been missing all these years.
Ahhh, also, I forgot to mention that my personal "telling off" by
PCB&F regarded plans (Chebacco) purchased from Dynamite Payson and
not from CSB. The CSB querelle in my case came afterhand, due to the
fact that I used to link to CSB from my Micro web pages.
Best, Pippo
PCB&F regarded plans (Chebacco) purchased from Dynamite Payson and
not from CSB. The CSB querelle in my case came afterhand, due to the
fact that I used to link to CSB from my Micro web pages.
Best, Pippo
--- In bolger@y..., "Samson Family" <Bill.Samson@t...> wrote:
> Fellow admirers of the designs of Phil Bolger,
>
> I must say I find it disturbing that another of our number is being
told off
> by PCB&F for buying their plans from CSB. I don't think it's doing
ANY of
> them (or us) any good, and is certainly upsetting a number of
customers.
> Just think guys, who haven't we heard from recently on this list?
No prizes
> for guessing why.
>
> I do wish that these two organisations would settle their
differences (in or
> out of court - whatever it takes) and not take it out on people who
have
> bought plans in good faith.
>
> Bill Samson
Here I am, thanks, Bill.
I don't want to enter the CSB-CSD vs PCB&F saga, even if I definitely
have my own opinion on this question which you and a few other
fellows know.
I'd like to add a point here though. In my opinion, the bad mood of
PCB&F against CSB is only one side, which I would deem of relatively
small importance, of the problem. The real issue, at least for me, is
their behaviour. I have many "yankee" colleagues and friends, with
whom this light-hearted southern Italian never had any problem. Maybe
it's El Nino, or the greenhouse effect...
Best, Pippo
I don't want to enter the CSB-CSD vs PCB&F saga, even if I definitely
have my own opinion on this question which you and a few other
fellows know.
I'd like to add a point here though. In my opinion, the bad mood of
PCB&F against CSB is only one side, which I would deem of relatively
small importance, of the problem. The real issue, at least for me, is
their behaviour. I have many "yankee" colleagues and friends, with
whom this light-hearted southern Italian never had any problem. Maybe
it's El Nino, or the greenhouse effect...
Best, Pippo
--- In bolger@y..., "Samson Family" <Bill.Samson@t...> wrote:
> Fellow admirers of the designs of Phil Bolger,
>
> I must say I find it disturbing that another of our number is being
told off
> by PCB&F for buying their plans from CSB. I don't think it's doing
ANY of
> them (or us) any good, and is certainly upsetting a number of
customers.
> Just think guys, who haven't we heard from recently on this list?
No prizes
> for guessing why.
>
> I do wish that these two organisations would settle their
differences (in or
> out of court - whatever it takes) and not take it out on people who
have
> bought plans in good faith.
>
> Bill Samson
Fellow admirers of the designs of Phil Bolger,
I must say I find it disturbing that another of our number is being told off
by PCB&F for buying their plans from CSB. I don't think it's doing ANY of
them (or us) any good, and is certainly upsetting a number of customers.
Just think guys, who haven't we heard from recently on this list? No prizes
for guessing why.
I do wish that these two organisations would settle their differences (in or
out of court - whatever it takes) and not take it out on people who have
bought plans in good faith.
Bill Samson
I must say I find it disturbing that another of our number is being told off
by PCB&F for buying their plans from CSB. I don't think it's doing ANY of
them (or us) any good, and is certainly upsetting a number of customers.
Just think guys, who haven't we heard from recently on this list? No prizes
for guessing why.
I do wish that these two organisations would settle their differences (in or
out of court - whatever it takes) and not take it out on people who have
bought plans in good faith.
Bill Samson
I don't think that PCB&F was necessarily telling people off for
buying plans from CSB. Rather, they were merely trying to protect
their rights. My bet is that they have a license agreement with CSB
or its predecessor and that they feel that the agreement has been
breached. They are merely putting people on notice that CSB is no
longer authorized to sell their plans. I agree that PCB&F probably
have no recourse against good faith purchasers of plans from CSB.
More importantly, it's just not worth collecting royalties from these
people. It's probably not worth even pursuing CSB in the courts.
Once lawyers are hired things get expensive quickly. The only ones
to benefit in the end would probably be the lawyers (they're such
scum - I know because I'm one). I have no idea if PCB&F's position
in this matter is valid, not knowing anying about the licensing
agreement or the course of dealing between PCB&F, CSB, and CSD.
That said, it does seem like rather poor public relations. I know
that Mr. Bolger is a yankee - I'm half yankee myself - and people
from outside of New England can frequently mistake the native
directness for rudeness. If you read the preface to 100 Sailing
Rigs, I think you get a glimpse of the New England style. You will
see in that book that Mr. Bolger supplies a list of modifiers to be
sprinkled in the text as necessary. Perhaps the modifiers to his
letter to CSB plan purchasers are coming under seperate cover and
will include phrases such as: "I regret to inform you."
I have always wondered why PCB&F doesn't have more of a web presence
- my bet is that they are just too busy. I bought plans a year and a
half ago from CSB for an Oldshoe. At the time I did not know of this
controversy. I purchased from CSB because of the convenience of
ordering on line. If PCB&F had a website, I would have ordered from
them.
Members of this forum should be aware of this problem and should know
that PCB&F will not support plans bought from CSB. If you run into
difficulties or have questions after you have started to build it
would certainly be best to have PCB&F plans so that you can
correspond with them for clarification.
Regards
Andy Farquhar
Self-loathing in the soon-to-be snow covered Delaware Valley.
buying plans from CSB. Rather, they were merely trying to protect
their rights. My bet is that they have a license agreement with CSB
or its predecessor and that they feel that the agreement has been
breached. They are merely putting people on notice that CSB is no
longer authorized to sell their plans. I agree that PCB&F probably
have no recourse against good faith purchasers of plans from CSB.
More importantly, it's just not worth collecting royalties from these
people. It's probably not worth even pursuing CSB in the courts.
Once lawyers are hired things get expensive quickly. The only ones
to benefit in the end would probably be the lawyers (they're such
scum - I know because I'm one). I have no idea if PCB&F's position
in this matter is valid, not knowing anying about the licensing
agreement or the course of dealing between PCB&F, CSB, and CSD.
That said, it does seem like rather poor public relations. I know
that Mr. Bolger is a yankee - I'm half yankee myself - and people
from outside of New England can frequently mistake the native
directness for rudeness. If you read the preface to 100 Sailing
Rigs, I think you get a glimpse of the New England style. You will
see in that book that Mr. Bolger supplies a list of modifiers to be
sprinkled in the text as necessary. Perhaps the modifiers to his
letter to CSB plan purchasers are coming under seperate cover and
will include phrases such as: "I regret to inform you."
I have always wondered why PCB&F doesn't have more of a web presence
- my bet is that they are just too busy. I bought plans a year and a
half ago from CSB for an Oldshoe. At the time I did not know of this
controversy. I purchased from CSB because of the convenience of
ordering on line. If PCB&F had a website, I would have ordered from
them.
Members of this forum should be aware of this problem and should know
that PCB&F will not support plans bought from CSB. If you run into
difficulties or have questions after you have started to build it
would certainly be best to have PCB&F plans so that you can
correspond with them for clarification.
Regards
Andy Farquhar
Self-loathing in the soon-to-be snow covered Delaware Valley.
Bill,
I concur with your viewpoint. I do not really know much about
this other than the Bolger relationship with CSB was severed a while
ago and there was a kind of cryptic article in MAIB discussing the
issue.
I find it disturbing that one party would be accused of not
paying royalties, and not seek to rectify the issue. If the
allegations are not true, then that issue would also appear to have
a need for resolution.
We all know that there is no real money to be made in this end
of the business (pin money at best). Therefore, logic would dictate
that the issue be resolved rather than a continuation of the current
stalemate. While it would probably not be cost effective for either
party to hire lawyers to battle the process out, with both the losing
and winning sides taking quite a hit in legal fees. It is probably
the perception to the outside viewer that is doing considerable
damage to both parties.
It is probably not cost effective to have plans sold by external
sources in the first place since the cost of printing, shipping, and
invoicing probably outweigh the profit from such plans, or at the
very least diminish profits to the point of limited returns. If
this is the real issue, then let it be done at that point and
continue forward. There is no need for both parties to be continuing
with the current course.
Enough with our litiginous society. Be part of the solution, not
part of the problem.
David Jost
" Church, then on to splicing and epoxying!"
I concur with your viewpoint. I do not really know much about
this other than the Bolger relationship with CSB was severed a while
ago and there was a kind of cryptic article in MAIB discussing the
issue.
I find it disturbing that one party would be accused of not
paying royalties, and not seek to rectify the issue. If the
allegations are not true, then that issue would also appear to have
a need for resolution.
We all know that there is no real money to be made in this end
of the business (pin money at best). Therefore, logic would dictate
that the issue be resolved rather than a continuation of the current
stalemate. While it would probably not be cost effective for either
party to hire lawyers to battle the process out, with both the losing
and winning sides taking quite a hit in legal fees. It is probably
the perception to the outside viewer that is doing considerable
damage to both parties.
It is probably not cost effective to have plans sold by external
sources in the first place since the cost of printing, shipping, and
invoicing probably outweigh the profit from such plans, or at the
very least diminish profits to the point of limited returns. If
this is the real issue, then let it be done at that point and
continue forward. There is no need for both parties to be continuing
with the current course.
Enough with our litiginous society. Be part of the solution, not
part of the problem.
David Jost
" Church, then on to splicing and epoxying!"
> Fellow admirers of the designs of Phil Bolger,told off
>
> I must say I find it disturbing that another of our number is being
> by PCB&F for buying their plans from CSB. I don't think it's doingANY of
> them (or us) any good, and is certainly upsetting a number ofcustomers.
>
> Bill Samson