Re: [bolger] PL Premium/Gorilla Glue
I'm not sure Bob but I suspect we are talking the same thing. Clamping
pressure is indeed needed to keep the parts together as the glue expands
with a fair amount of force. I think I paid about $12.00 for the 14 oz
bottle of Gorilla Glue and $9.00 for the equivalent type of glue from ACE
Hardware.
You don't need as much of the PL glue as epoxy so it is comparable in price
or at least close enough. I used it extensively on my Tennessee except in
high stress areas such as gluing the bulkheads in place and places where
there was minimal gluing surfaces available.
PL is just so much handier than epoxy for gluing trim, chine logs, etc.
I sincerely hope that it works as my Tennessee is a big boat and will be not
be babied along.
Jeff
pressure is indeed needed to keep the parts together as the glue expands
with a fair amount of force. I think I paid about $12.00 for the 14 oz
bottle of Gorilla Glue and $9.00 for the equivalent type of glue from ACE
Hardware.
You don't need as much of the PL glue as epoxy so it is comparable in price
or at least close enough. I used it extensively on my Tennessee except in
high stress areas such as gluing the bulkheads in place and places where
there was minimal gluing surfaces available.
PL is just so much handier than epoxy for gluing trim, chine logs, etc.
I sincerely hope that it works as my Tennessee is a big boat and will be not
be babied along.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: <cha62759@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 7:14 AM
Subject: [bolger] PL Premium/Gorilla Glue
> Hi All,
>
> This Bondo thread has me confused. What exactly is PL Premium? I see
> it discussed in context with Gorilla Glue. Is it like Gorilla Glue or
> is it a Polyurathane "construction adhesive".
>
> I use the Elmers variety of Gorilla Glue-Probond which I find very
> handy for small glue up jobs but too expensive for extensive gluing.
>
> The bubbling that's discussed sounds like polyurathane. The clamping
> is pretty important because the glue expands to fill gaps and if not
> clamped will push the parts apart.
>
> Anyway enlighten me.
>
> Bob Chamberland
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
It's a polyurethane construction adhesive that is pretty viscous and
comes in a tube that you can use in a gun like caulking. It is nowhere
near as thin as Probond Urethane glue (which I've also used and like
in cases where the fit is close). In fact, in cold weather it is
pretty tough to get out of the tube at all. It does bubble a little,
but not nearly as much as Probond Urethane. (I don't just say Probond,
as there are other kinds of Probond glue as well.)
comes in a tube that you can use in a gun like caulking. It is nowhere
near as thin as Probond Urethane glue (which I've also used and like
in cases where the fit is close). In fact, in cold weather it is
pretty tough to get out of the tube at all. It does bubble a little,
but not nearly as much as Probond Urethane. (I don't just say Probond,
as there are other kinds of Probond glue as well.)
--- In bolger@y..., cha62759@t... wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> This Bondo thread has me confused. What exactly is PL Premium? I see
> it discussed in context with Gorilla Glue. Is it like Gorilla Glue
or
> is it a Polyurathane "construction adhesive".
>
> I use the Elmers variety of Gorilla Glue-Probond which I find very
> handy for small glue up jobs but too expensive for extensive gluing.
>
> The bubbling that's discussed sounds like polyurathane. The clamping
> is pretty important because the glue expands to fill gaps and if
not
> clamped will push the parts apart.
>
> Anyway enlighten me.
>
> Bob Chamberland
Hi All,
This Bondo thread has me confused. What exactly is PL Premium? I see
it discussed in context with Gorilla Glue. Is it like Gorilla Glue or
is it a Polyurathane "construction adhesive".
I use the Elmers variety of Gorilla Glue-Probond which I find very
handy for small glue up jobs but too expensive for extensive gluing.
The bubbling that's discussed sounds like polyurathane. The clamping
is pretty important because the glue expands to fill gaps and if not
clamped will push the parts apart.
Anyway enlighten me.
Bob Chamberland
This Bondo thread has me confused. What exactly is PL Premium? I see
it discussed in context with Gorilla Glue. Is it like Gorilla Glue or
is it a Polyurathane "construction adhesive".
I use the Elmers variety of Gorilla Glue-Probond which I find very
handy for small glue up jobs but too expensive for extensive gluing.
The bubbling that's discussed sounds like polyurathane. The clamping
is pretty important because the glue expands to fill gaps and if not
clamped will push the parts apart.
Anyway enlighten me.
Bob Chamberland
I've found that the PL Premium gets pretty hard after a few weeks, and
that's in cold weather. If it's like rubber, it's pretty hard rubber.
I got the bubbling too, but only where I didn't have it trapped
between two surfaces. I didn't have a super tight fit when repairing
the leeboard holder on the Brick, but so far so good.
that's in cold weather. If it's like rubber, it's pretty hard rubber.
I got the bubbling too, but only where I didn't have it trapped
between two surfaces. I didn't have a super tight fit when repairing
the leeboard holder on the Brick, but so far so good.
--- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "Larry Barker" <lgbarker@i...> wrote:
> > Jeff,
> > I'm using PL Premium for my $200 Sailboat & am curious about
> your "tight fit
> > and clamping pressure" comment. snip Also, on a couple of joints,
> i tried to smooth-out some of the queezed-out glue, sort of
> like a fairing compaound, and it bubbled up when it dried.
>
> When dry, it has the consitiency of rubber and is about impossible
> to sand.
>
> Forget about washing it off your hands. It leaves a film that
> collects dirt, turns black, and makes you look like you had
> real bad car trouble on your way to work.
>
>
> Max
HI All,
A couple of weekends ago, I saw the first boat that I made, an OSS. I
built it about 2 years ago. I thas been stored outside wiith no cover
for most of that time. Still very usable from my inspection. I used
PL Premium on all the joints and also as a filer on half the screw
holes (I used regular wood putty on the other half). It was an
experiment that made me do it. Here is what I found. The PL Premium
is still in place, but the paint is chipping. The wood filler is
cracked and I assume that the boat will rot starting at these holes.
I used ordinary house latex on the entire boat and it has held up
pretty darn good. A little faded, but stil good. Kinda funny to see
the workmanship in that first boat compared the following boats I
have done. Even though it was not that long ago, the old saying that
practice make perfect is easy to see here.
Sorry of rambleing, but these all leads up to my question for another
experiment. Will I be able to glass over polyester resin with epoxy
resin? I used polyester on the inside of my Nymph and epoxy on the
outside with no problems, but what about polyester fillets glassed
over with glass and polyester resin and then encapsulated in a couple
of coats of epoxy? Is this overkill or will the epoxy even stick to
the polyester?
Thanks for your help.
Rich
A couple of weekends ago, I saw the first boat that I made, an OSS. I
built it about 2 years ago. I thas been stored outside wiith no cover
for most of that time. Still very usable from my inspection. I used
PL Premium on all the joints and also as a filer on half the screw
holes (I used regular wood putty on the other half). It was an
experiment that made me do it. Here is what I found. The PL Premium
is still in place, but the paint is chipping. The wood filler is
cracked and I assume that the boat will rot starting at these holes.
I used ordinary house latex on the entire boat and it has held up
pretty darn good. A little faded, but stil good. Kinda funny to see
the workmanship in that first boat compared the following boats I
have done. Even though it was not that long ago, the old saying that
practice make perfect is easy to see here.
Sorry of rambleing, but these all leads up to my question for another
experiment. Will I be able to glass over polyester resin with epoxy
resin? I used polyester on the inside of my Nymph and epoxy on the
outside with no problems, but what about polyester fillets glassed
over with glass and polyester resin and then encapsulated in a couple
of coats of epoxy? Is this overkill or will the epoxy even stick to
the polyester?
Thanks for your help.
Rich
My Tennessee is made of ACX also and my experience with PL type of glue is
that while it may fill a gap, it doesn't have strength. When the glue
interacts with the moisture in the wood, it starts foaming swelling many
times it's size. Unfortunately by itself, it's just like an expanding foam
product. I would guess that it fills with air bubbles weakening it's
strength. When clamped tight, it expands just enough to fill the tiny gaps
before setting up solid.
My bottle of Gorilla Glue recommended a "well fitting joints" with "adequate
clamping pressure". Where I clamped it tight it's very strong. If I
clamped it as I would epoxy, the joint will fail before the wood.
Tight clamping is important in my experience.
Jeff
that while it may fill a gap, it doesn't have strength. When the glue
interacts with the moisture in the wood, it starts foaming swelling many
times it's size. Unfortunately by itself, it's just like an expanding foam
product. I would guess that it fills with air bubbles weakening it's
strength. When clamped tight, it expands just enough to fill the tiny gaps
before setting up solid.
My bottle of Gorilla Glue recommended a "well fitting joints" with "adequate
clamping pressure". Where I clamped it tight it's very strong. If I
clamped it as I would epoxy, the joint will fail before the wood.
Tight clamping is important in my experience.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Barker" <lgbarker@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bondo
> Jeff,
> I'm using PL Premium for my $200 Sailboat & am curious about your "tight
fit
> and clamping pressure" comment. After getting my reading glasses & the PL
> tube I read ",,,PL Premium will bridge up to 3/8 inch." While I have no
> gaps near this size, am clamping/fastening and don't expect it to gap-fill
> like thickened epoxy, I was hoping that PL would be more forgiving than,
> say, Weldwood. Does anyone have any experience/comments?
>
> BTW this is going to be a ACX ply day sailer living on the trailer, not a
> huge investment or intended for large water, so I decided to experiment
with
> PL -- it's a lot handier than epoxy.
> Thanks - Larry Barker
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 7:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bondo
>
>
> > Chuck,
> > >I am thinking that 5200 or some other urethane like PL premium would
make
> a
> > >better adhesive for a non-taped boat that was not going to be
completely
> > >encapsulated
> <snip>
> > The only problem is the tight fit and clamping pressure makes using PL a
> > pain when you used to epoxy, and price compared to RAKA epoxy is really
> > about the same if not a bit higher. It is convenient though with no
> mixing
> > and sets up in 3 or 4 hours so you can get more done in a day. Clean up
> is
> > a snap with Alcohol or paint thinner.
> > Jeff Blunck
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
--- In bolger@y..., "Larry Barker" <lgbarker@i...> wrote:
The problem that I most often ran into was that the stuff
was so thick, I sometimes had difficulty getting the two
pieces of wood to come together. I have heard that if it is
warmed, it thins out and works easier.
I tried using it to glue the backing block on a butt joint
and could not get the block down against the plywood.
I would not worry about it's gap filling qualities; I would
be more concerned about getting tight-fitting joints to come together.
So far, I have not noticed anything glued with P.L. coming
about on the boat, although if some is smeared on a surface
and just wiped off, it leaves an invisible film that will later
turn yellow and very visible. Also, on a couple of joints,
i tried to smooth-out some of the queezed-out glue, sort of
like a fairing compaound, and it bubbled up when it dried.
When dry, it has the consitiency of rubber and is about impossible
to sand.
Forget about washing it off your hands. It leaves a film that
collects dirt, turns black, and makes you look like you had
real bad car trouble on your way to work.
Max
> Jeff,your "tight fit
> I'm using PL Premium for my $200 Sailboat & am curious about
> and clamping pressure" comment. After getting my reading glasses &the PL
> tube I read ",,,PL Premium will bridge up to 3/8 inch." While Ihave no
> gaps near this size, am clamping/fastening and don't expect it togap-fill
> like thickened epoxy, I was hoping that PL would be more forgivingthan,
> say, Weldwood. Does anyone have any experience/comments?I used P. L. premium construction adhesive all over my boat.
>
The problem that I most often ran into was that the stuff
was so thick, I sometimes had difficulty getting the two
pieces of wood to come together. I have heard that if it is
warmed, it thins out and works easier.
I tried using it to glue the backing block on a butt joint
and could not get the block down against the plywood.
I would not worry about it's gap filling qualities; I would
be more concerned about getting tight-fitting joints to come together.
So far, I have not noticed anything glued with P.L. coming
about on the boat, although if some is smeared on a surface
and just wiped off, it leaves an invisible film that will later
turn yellow and very visible. Also, on a couple of joints,
i tried to smooth-out some of the queezed-out glue, sort of
like a fairing compaound, and it bubbled up when it dried.
When dry, it has the consitiency of rubber and is about impossible
to sand.
Forget about washing it off your hands. It leaves a film that
collects dirt, turns black, and makes you look like you had
real bad car trouble on your way to work.
Max
Jeff,
I'm using PL Premium for my $200 Sailboat & am curious about your "tight fit
and clamping pressure" comment. After getting my reading glasses & the PL
tube I read ",,,PL Premium will bridge up to 3/8 inch." While I have no
gaps near this size, am clamping/fastening and don't expect it to gap-fill
like thickened epoxy, I was hoping that PL would be more forgiving than,
say, Weldwood. Does anyone have any experience/comments?
BTW this is going to be a ACX ply day sailer living on the trailer, not a
huge investment or intended for large water, so I decided to experiment with
PL -- it's a lot handier than epoxy.
Thanks - Larry Barker
I'm using PL Premium for my $200 Sailboat & am curious about your "tight fit
and clamping pressure" comment. After getting my reading glasses & the PL
tube I read ",,,PL Premium will bridge up to 3/8 inch." While I have no
gaps near this size, am clamping/fastening and don't expect it to gap-fill
like thickened epoxy, I was hoping that PL would be more forgiving than,
say, Weldwood. Does anyone have any experience/comments?
BTW this is going to be a ACX ply day sailer living on the trailer, not a
huge investment or intended for large water, so I decided to experiment with
PL -- it's a lot handier than epoxy.
Thanks - Larry Barker
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bondo
> Chuck,
> >I am thinking that 5200 or some other urethane like PL premium would make
a
> >better adhesive for a non-taped boat that was not going to be completely
> >encapsulated
<snip>
> The only problem is the tight fit and clamping pressure makes using PL a
> pain when you used to epoxy, and price compared to RAKA epoxy is really
> about the same if not a bit higher. It is convenient though with no
mixing
> and sets up in 3 or 4 hours so you can get more done in a day. Clean up
is
> a snap with Alcohol or paint thinner.
> Jeff Blunck
It was a standard taped seam, Richard. Raw wood was primed with liquid
epoxy, then filleted with thickened epoxy when the primer was tacky. Then
two layers of biaxial tape were laid over the fillet and wetted out. SOP
Chuck
epoxy, then filleted with thickened epoxy when the primer was tacky. Then
two layers of biaxial tape were laid over the fillet and wetted out. SOP
Chuck
>
> Can you tell us more about this? Have pictures? This is the first I
> have heard of epoxy and glass letting go of wood without tearing a
> chunk out. What kind of wood? Surface prep? Etc.
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
> > Jeff:
> >
> > As far as Bondo releasing its grip from wet wood, epoxy is just as
> bad. I
> > had a leak in one of the ballast tanks of my Caprice, and several
> inches of
> > taped fillet in the bottom interior came completely loose. I was
> astounded.
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
?
It was the "laugh-in" soldier who said "very interesting."
>Opps; wrong German soldier. Schultz said "I know nothing."
> Like Sgt. Schultz would say, "Veeeeery interesting>"
>
>
> Max
It was the "laugh-in" soldier who said "very interesting."
> In my case, I am sure that it was water. You may remember that Iepoxying
> experimented by glassing one set of water ballast tanks, and simply
> the other set. Well, the experiment was educational: I now have thewater seeped
> unglassed tanks open and awaiting their 2.5 oz. lining. Where
> behind the taped fillets, the wood expanded and the whole mess camefound
> completely loose. I later did some research at the West site, and
> that this is why they came up with the "wood encapsulizationsaturation
> technique" acronym. Apparently, it is pretty well known that whenwood gets
> wet, it separates from cured epoxy. Live and learn.cloth. And, of course, the tank would not have been exposed to
>
> But the tank that had the problems was coated with epoxy, just no
sunlight which could have caused checking and associated breaks
in the epoxy coating.
This sure sounds like a good test of the epoxy alone vs. epoxy-with-
cloth argument, especially since sunlight would not have been a
factor. Both tanks were in the same boat, the same wood, exposed to
the same conditions, and with the same brand of epoxy.
The only variable not addressed is the number of coats of
epoxy the tank recieved; i.e. should more coats have been used?
Like Sgt. Schultz would say, "Veeeeery interesting>"
Max
>would make a
> I am thinking that 5200 or some other urethane like PL premium
> better adhesive for a non-taped boat that was not going to becompletely
> encapsulated.My current boat has P.L. premium nearly everywhere except
>
> Chuck
>
on the bulkheads and the keel-strip. I was planning on
using epoxy to glue the next boat together, but was not
going to epoxy saturate.
Maybe I will stick with the P.L premium. It certainly is
a lot easier to deal with (no mixing; just use the caulking
gun). I don't think the P.L. is any cheaper- went through
14 or 15 tubes, if I remember correctly.
Which means I now have way more epoxy on hand than I need.
Glad it has a long shelf life.
Max
Order some of Raka's 5 minute epoxy.
--- In bolger@y..., boatbuilding@g... wrote:
> No, I'm not gluing up my Tennesse with Bondo, but I was just
curious
> if it will stick to epoxy?
>
> I have the top deck area glassed with epoxy but trying to get it
all
> nice and smooth is a pain because of sanding a little, then waiting
> 24 hours for the next batch of epoxy to set.
>
> My question is, for the minor imperfections in the finish, could a
> one use Bondo as a fast drying filler? That sure would speed
things
> up on the fine finishing details.
>
> Would it just let go and fall off?
>
> Curious.....
>
>
> Jeff Blunck
Max, I've built quite a few boats, both taped seam and chine log.
Never had any delamination problem, either with Fiberglass Coatings
or Raka epoxy.
Be sure to stir for at least 20-30 seconds for about a half cup of
epoxy. More epoxy, more stiring. I use the big wide "pop-sicle"
sticks.
Never had any delamination problem, either with Fiberglass Coatings
or Raka epoxy.
Be sure to stir for at least 20-30 seconds for about a half cup of
epoxy. More epoxy, more stiring. I use the big wide "pop-sicle"
sticks.
--- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:
> >
> > As far as Bondo releasing its grip from wet wood, epoxy is just
as
> bad. I
> > had a leak in one of the ballast tanks of my Caprice, and several
> inches of
> > taped fillet in the bottom interior came completely loose. I was
> astounded.
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> >
> > >
> Good morning: Are you convinced it was water-soaking that
> loosened the fillet? I am asking because I have had two small
> areas in the taping on the chine on my boat that loosened up.
> I repaired one about a month ago, and currently have about 12
> inches of the other chine ground down and drying out before
> I re-tape. I am not sure what happened; the bad areas are much
> smaller than the area of tape covered by each batch of epoxy I
> mixxed, so I don't think it is a matter of a improperly-proportioned
> batch, or a badly mixed batch, as much larger areas would have been
> affected. I was careful to completely mix all material in the
> container. Both layers of tape were put down withing minutes
> of each other, and the wood was "wetted-out first; i.e. the tape
> was not put down dry. The removed areas of tape were flexable
> and smelled of un-cured epoxy. Sure seems like a mixxing problem.
>
> This was one reason I was particularly interested in the discussion
> of brands of epoxy, but I watched Kilburn Adams and his friend
> Bill both assemble their boats using Raka epoxy, and apparently
> no problems. And the epoxy elsewhere on the boat is holding
> up fine. At this point I have no reason to believe the problem
> is with the epoxy, but more likely with something I did, but I
> don't know what that is.
>
> This definetly affected my decision to build a "chine log" boat
> next, as I don't want to get into taped seams until I am sure
> I am doing this right. With the AF4, a badly-taped seam is
> not really a structural concern; with a taped-seam boat, it
> very well can be.
>
>
> Max
Can you tell us more about this? Have pictures? This is the first I
have heard of epoxy and glass letting go of wood without tearing a
chunk out. What kind of wood? Surface prep? Etc.
have heard of epoxy and glass letting go of wood without tearing a
chunk out. What kind of wood? Surface prep? Etc.
--- In bolger@y..., "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
> Jeff:
>
> As far as Bondo releasing its grip from wet wood, epoxy is just as
bad. I
> had a leak in one of the ballast tanks of my Caprice, and several
inches of
> taped fillet in the bottom interior came completely loose. I was
astounded.
>
> Chuck
>
>
Chuck,
logs, sides, and bottom are all glued with PL premium (Gorilla Glue). I
then rounded off with a 3/4" router bit and epoxy/glass taped the external
chine area for abrasion resistance and to protect the 1" thick bottom
plywood edge.
The inside is left bare for paint only.
In fact most of my joints are PL glue. Epoxy is used for coating/glass work
and where I know there will be high stress. I did use epoxy for laminating
the two bottom plys.
I have tested some ply to ply, ply to pine, ply to white ash joints using PL
premium and every single joint failed on the ply layers or wood grain in the
pine, never the joint. The only time the joint failed is Ash to Ash but
lets face it, Ash is hard as nails and an extremely tough tight grain wood.
It barely soaks up epoxy compared to pine or fur.
The only problem is the tight fit and clamping pressure makes using PL a
pain when you used to epoxy, and price compared to RAKA epoxy is really
about the same if not a bit higher. It is convenient though with no mixing
and sets up in 3 or 4 hours so you can get more done in a day. Clean up is
a snap with Alcohol or paint thinner.
Jeff Blunck
>I am thinking that 5200 or some other urethane like PL premium would make aThis is the exact way I put the Tennessee together. The external chine
>better adhesive for a non-taped boat that was not going to be completely
>encapsulated
logs, sides, and bottom are all glued with PL premium (Gorilla Glue). I
then rounded off with a 3/4" router bit and epoxy/glass taped the external
chine area for abrasion resistance and to protect the 1" thick bottom
plywood edge.
The inside is left bare for paint only.
In fact most of my joints are PL glue. Epoxy is used for coating/glass work
and where I know there will be high stress. I did use epoxy for laminating
the two bottom plys.
I have tested some ply to ply, ply to pine, ply to white ash joints using PL
premium and every single joint failed on the ply layers or wood grain in the
pine, never the joint. The only time the joint failed is Ash to Ash but
lets face it, Ash is hard as nails and an extremely tough tight grain wood.
It barely soaks up epoxy compared to pine or fur.
The only problem is the tight fit and clamping pressure makes using PL a
pain when you used to epoxy, and price compared to RAKA epoxy is really
about the same if not a bit higher. It is convenient though with no mixing
and sets up in 3 or 4 hours so you can get more done in a day. Clean up is
a snap with Alcohol or paint thinner.
Jeff Blunck
Max:
Your case may indeed come from mixing problems, but do try a mixing stick of
some kind, as Lincoln suggested, so that you can scrape the sides and bottom
as you mix.
In my case, I am sure that it was water. You may remember that I
experimented by glassing one set of water ballast tanks, and simply epoxying
the other set. Well, the experiment was educational: I now have the
unglassed tanks open and awaiting their 2.5 oz. lining. Where water seeped
behind the taped fillets, the wood expanded and the whole mess came
completely loose. I later did some research at the West site, and found
that this is why they came up with the "wood encapsulization saturation
technique" acronym. Apparently, it is pretty well known that when wood gets
wet, it separates from cured epoxy. Live and learn.
I am thinking that 5200 or some other urethane like PL premium would make a
better adhesive for a non-taped boat that was not going to be completely
encapsulated.
Chuck
Your case may indeed come from mixing problems, but do try a mixing stick of
some kind, as Lincoln suggested, so that you can scrape the sides and bottom
as you mix.
In my case, I am sure that it was water. You may remember that I
experimented by glassing one set of water ballast tanks, and simply epoxying
the other set. Well, the experiment was educational: I now have the
unglassed tanks open and awaiting their 2.5 oz. lining. Where water seeped
behind the taped fillets, the wood expanded and the whole mess came
completely loose. I later did some research at the West site, and found
that this is why they came up with the "wood encapsulization saturation
technique" acronym. Apparently, it is pretty well known that when wood gets
wet, it separates from cured epoxy. Live and learn.
I am thinking that 5200 or some other urethane like PL premium would make a
better adhesive for a non-taped boat that was not going to be completely
encapsulated.
Chuck
> Did not use any filler. Your comment on the plastic knife caught
> my attention, because I have been using plastic spoons, and was
> thinking that maybe these spoons might have had a residue of
> silicon-based mold release agent or something similiar on them.
>
>
> The removed sections of tape were quite flexable, although the
> weave of the cloth appeared filled. I ground back into solid
> material on each side of the bad spots, and everything is stuck
> tight there. Since the left-over resin in the mixxing container
> usually turns hard as glass after several days, I would have
> assumed that a removed section of tape, two layers thick, would
> be relatively stiff.
>
> Will try wood stirring sticks on the next stuff.
>
>
> Max
>
>
Lincoln:
I have had the same experience with polyurethane - I think it was because
the stuff sets up so fast, and you get in a hurry. We solved our problem
with a jiffy mixer and a drill.
Chuck
I have had the same experience with polyurethane - I think it was because
the stuff sets up so fast, and you get in a hurry. We solved our problem
with a jiffy mixer and a drill.
Chuck
> When I used to work at a company that made oceanographic buoys, we
> made urethane strain reliefs. We had mixing problems. No matter how
> hard we tried to mix it perfectly, sometimes we'd end up with uncured
> areas that would have to be cut out and replaced. We went to prepacked
> mixer nozzle cartridges and the problem went away. Not sure if this is
> relevant.
>
--- In bolger@y..., "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@m...> wrote:
my attention, because I have been using plastic spoons, and was
thinking that maybe these spoons might have had a residue of
silicon-based mold release agent or something similiar on them.
Anyway, I had been warned to mix completely and thoroughly, and did
same.
weave of the cloth appeared filled. I ground back into solid
material on each side of the bad spots, and everything is stuck
tight there. Since the left-over resin in the mixxing container
usually turns hard as glass after several days, I would have
assumed that a removed section of tape, two layers thick, would
be relatively stiff.
Will try wood stirring sticks on the next stuff.
Max
> Are you sure there was no contamination on the wood? Seemsunlikely,
> but possible.Nothing that was obvious
>or
> How long do you mix, and do you scrape the bottom and sides of the
> container? It may be that part of the batch was mixed well, and a
> small part wasn't. When I mix epoxy, I usually make up about 3 oz.,
> maybe 4.5oz in one of those graduated mixing cups you can get fromof
> either Glen-L or Clark Craft (I forget which). I mix for a minimum
> two minutes with a plastic knife, BEFORE i put in any filler.Did not use any filler. Your comment on the plastic knife caught
my attention, because I have been using plastic spoons, and was
thinking that maybe these spoons might have had a residue of
silicon-based mold release agent or something similiar on them.
Anyway, I had been warned to mix completely and thoroughly, and did
same.
> I also wonder if you had a little tension on the tape, which, if onThe removed sections of tape were quite flexable, although the
> the inside of the hull, would keep it out of contact with the wood
> underneath. Or was this on the chine? Unsupported tape can seem a
> little flexible.
weave of the cloth appeared filled. I ground back into solid
material on each side of the bad spots, and everything is stuck
tight there. Since the left-over resin in the mixxing container
usually turns hard as glass after several days, I would have
assumed that a removed section of tape, two layers thick, would
be relatively stiff.
Will try wood stirring sticks on the next stuff.
Max
Are you sure there was no contamination on the wood? Seems unlikely,
but possible.
How long do you mix, and do you scrape the bottom and sides of the
container? It may be that part of the batch was mixed well, and a
small part wasn't. When I mix epoxy, I usually make up about 3 oz., or
maybe 4.5oz in one of those graduated mixing cups you can get from
either Glen-L or Clark Craft (I forget which). I mix for a minimum of
two minutes with a plastic knife, BEFORE i put in any filler. I have
seen epoxy where the filler was added before mixing was complete have
only a partial cure, fortunately not on my own project. I use Raka
epoxy and it has always cured thoroughly, but other brands have too.
When I used to work at a company that made oceanographic buoys, we
made urethane strain reliefs. We had mixing problems. No matter how
hard we tried to mix it perfectly, sometimes we'd end up with uncured
areas that would have to be cut out and replaced. We went to prepacked
mixer nozzle cartridges and the problem went away. Not sure if this is
relevant.
I also wonder if you had a little tension on the tape, which, if on
the inside of the hull, would keep it out of contact with the wood
underneath. Or was this on the chine? Unsupported tape can seem a
little flexible.
but possible.
How long do you mix, and do you scrape the bottom and sides of the
container? It may be that part of the batch was mixed well, and a
small part wasn't. When I mix epoxy, I usually make up about 3 oz., or
maybe 4.5oz in one of those graduated mixing cups you can get from
either Glen-L or Clark Craft (I forget which). I mix for a minimum of
two minutes with a plastic knife, BEFORE i put in any filler. I have
seen epoxy where the filler was added before mixing was complete have
only a partial cure, fortunately not on my own project. I use Raka
epoxy and it has always cured thoroughly, but other brands have too.
When I used to work at a company that made oceanographic buoys, we
made urethane strain reliefs. We had mixing problems. No matter how
hard we tried to mix it perfectly, sometimes we'd end up with uncured
areas that would have to be cut out and replaced. We went to prepacked
mixer nozzle cartridges and the problem went away. Not sure if this is
relevant.
I also wonder if you had a little tension on the tape, which, if on
the inside of the hull, would keep it out of contact with the wood
underneath. Or was this on the chine? Unsupported tape can seem a
little flexible.
--- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:
>snip I am not sure what happened; the bad areas are much
> smaller than the area of tape covered by each batch of epoxy I
> mixxed, so I don't think it is a matter of a improperly-proportioned
> batch, or a badly mixed batch, as much larger areas would have been
> affected. I was careful to completely mix all material in the
> container. Both layers of tape were put down withing minutes
> of each other, and the wood was "wetted-out first; i.e. the tape
> was not put down dry. The removed areas of tape were flexable
> and smelled of un-cured epoxy. Sure seems like a mixxing problem.
> snip
>bad. I
> As far as Bondo releasing its grip from wet wood, epoxy is just as
> had a leak in one of the ballast tanks of my Caprice, and severalinches of
> taped fillet in the bottom interior came completely loose. I wasastounded.
>Good morning: Are you convinced it was water-soaking that
> Chuck
>
>
> >
loosened the fillet? I am asking because I have had two small
areas in the taping on the chine on my boat that loosened up.
I repaired one about a month ago, and currently have about 12
inches of the other chine ground down and drying out before
I re-tape. I am not sure what happened; the bad areas are much
smaller than the area of tape covered by each batch of epoxy I
mixxed, so I don't think it is a matter of a improperly-proportioned
batch, or a badly mixed batch, as much larger areas would have been
affected. I was careful to completely mix all material in the
container. Both layers of tape were put down withing minutes
of each other, and the wood was "wetted-out first; i.e. the tape
was not put down dry. The removed areas of tape were flexable
and smelled of un-cured epoxy. Sure seems like a mixxing problem.
This was one reason I was particularly interested in the discussion
of brands of epoxy, but I watched Kilburn Adams and his friend
Bill both assemble their boats using Raka epoxy, and apparently
no problems. And the epoxy elsewhere on the boat is holding
up fine. At this point I have no reason to believe the problem
is with the epoxy, but more likely with something I did, but I
don't know what that is.
This definetly affected my decision to build a "chine log" boat
next, as I don't want to get into taped seams until I am sure
I am doing this right. With the AF4, a badly-taped seam is
not really a structural concern; with a taped-seam boat, it
very well can be.
Max
I have used a material called Marine Tex, but only on polyester. Since
Marine Tex itself seems to be an epoxy, I should think it would work
well. But I don't know if it's possible to get it cheap. I've only
seen small amounts for too many bucks. I don't remember how fast it
cures, impression is in a few hours.
Marine Tex itself seems to be an epoxy, I should think it would work
well. But I don't know if it's possible to get it cheap. I've only
seen small amounts for too many bucks. I don't remember how fast it
cures, impression is in a few hours.
--- In bolger@y..., "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
> Jeff:
>
> I have used Bondo on epoxy with success. I have to say, however
that I have
> used it only sparingly, when fairing taped butt joints. Even then,
I sanded
> it down so that no continuous area of Bondo larger than a quarter
remained,
> and I put a couple of coats of epoxy over the whole mess.
>
> I think that if you are going to glass over the Bondo, it is not a
problem.
>
> As far as Bondo releasing its grip from wet wood, epoxy is just as
bad. I
> had a leak in one of the ballast tanks of my Caprice, and several
inches of
> taped fillet in the bottom interior came completely loose. I was
astounded.
>
> Chuck
>
>
> >
> > No, I'm not gluing up my Tennesse with Bondo, but I was just
curious
> > if it will stick to epoxy?
> >
> > I have the top deck area glassed with epoxy but trying to get it
all
> > nice and smooth is a pain because of sanding a little, then
waiting
> > 24 hours for the next batch of epoxy to set.
> >
> > My question is, for the minor imperfections in the finish, could a
> > one use Bondo as a fast drying filler? That sure would speed
things
> > up on the fine finishing details.
> >
> > Would it just let go and fall off?
> >
> > Curious.....
> >
> >
> > Jeff Blunck
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
like
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
Jeff:
I have used Bondo on epoxy with success. I have to say, however that I have
used it only sparingly, when fairing taped butt joints. Even then, I sanded
it down so that no continuous area of Bondo larger than a quarter remained,
and I put a couple of coats of epoxy over the whole mess.
I think that if you are going to glass over the Bondo, it is not a problem.
As far as Bondo releasing its grip from wet wood, epoxy is just as bad. I
had a leak in one of the ballast tanks of my Caprice, and several inches of
taped fillet in the bottom interior came completely loose. I was astounded.
Chuck
I have used Bondo on epoxy with success. I have to say, however that I have
used it only sparingly, when fairing taped butt joints. Even then, I sanded
it down so that no continuous area of Bondo larger than a quarter remained,
and I put a couple of coats of epoxy over the whole mess.
I think that if you are going to glass over the Bondo, it is not a problem.
As far as Bondo releasing its grip from wet wood, epoxy is just as bad. I
had a leak in one of the ballast tanks of my Caprice, and several inches of
taped fillet in the bottom interior came completely loose. I was astounded.
Chuck
>
> No, I'm not gluing up my Tennesse with Bondo, but I was just curious
> if it will stick to epoxy?
>
> I have the top deck area glassed with epoxy but trying to get it all
> nice and smooth is a pain because of sanding a little, then waiting
> 24 hours for the next batch of epoxy to set.
>
> My question is, for the minor imperfections in the finish, could a
> one use Bondo as a fast drying filler? That sure would speed things
> up on the fine finishing details.
>
> Would it just let go and fall off?
>
> Curious.....
>
>
> Jeff Blunck
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Jeff,
Experience has taught me that you can't get Bondo to stick to epoxy
reliably. I think it's because Bondo is a polyester compound and
poly won't stick to epoxy, not sure about that, but it doesn't work
well.
I've used Bondo directly over wood to fill minor imperfections, screw
holes etc. My attempts to use it to fair large areas or underwater
areas have been unsucessful. One drawback to Bondo is that it
shrinks quite a bit as it cures. When filling deep holes you'll have
to leave a lump above the surface to sand down or go back and re-fill.
Ray
Experience has taught me that you can't get Bondo to stick to epoxy
reliably. I think it's because Bondo is a polyester compound and
poly won't stick to epoxy, not sure about that, but it doesn't work
well.
I've used Bondo directly over wood to fill minor imperfections, screw
holes etc. My attempts to use it to fair large areas or underwater
areas have been unsucessful. One drawback to Bondo is that it
shrinks quite a bit as it cures. When filling deep holes you'll have
to leave a lump above the surface to sand down or go back and re-fill.
Ray
--- In bolger@y..., boatbuilding@g... wrote:
> No, I'm not gluing up my Tennesse with Bondo, but I was just
curious
> if it will stick to epoxy?
...
> Would it just let go and fall off?
>
Jeff,
Cape Cod Frostys (the world's smallest racing dinghy) were built
of luan ply and bondo. I can speak from experience that Bondo does
not hold well over a long period of time in exposure to water. It
will disolve and break apart eventually, usually when your boat is in
the lead.
I am sure that the bond with Epoxy will not be much better.
David Jost
"this brings back some really cold, cold, memories"
Cape Cod Frostys (the world's smallest racing dinghy) were built
of luan ply and bondo. I can speak from experience that Bondo does
not hold well over a long period of time in exposure to water. It
will disolve and break apart eventually, usually when your boat is in
the lead.
I am sure that the bond with Epoxy will not be much better.
David Jost
"this brings back some really cold, cold, memories"
No, I'm not gluing up my Tennesse with Bondo, but I was just curious
if it will stick to epoxy?
I have the top deck area glassed with epoxy but trying to get it all
nice and smooth is a pain because of sanding a little, then waiting
24 hours for the next batch of epoxy to set.
My question is, for the minor imperfections in the finish, could a
one use Bondo as a fast drying filler? That sure would speed things
up on the fine finishing details.
Would it just let go and fall off?
Curious.....
Jeff Blunck
if it will stick to epoxy?
I have the top deck area glassed with epoxy but trying to get it all
nice and smooth is a pain because of sanding a little, then waiting
24 hours for the next batch of epoxy to set.
My question is, for the minor imperfections in the finish, could a
one use Bondo as a fast drying filler? That sure would speed things
up on the fine finishing details.
Would it just let go and fall off?
Curious.....
Jeff Blunck
I have been using a filler in place of Bondo called Evercoat Formula
27 for a while. It supposedly is not as prone to water-induced
"Bondo blowout" and yet smells the same. I still call the new stuff
Bondo. If I mix West epoxy with microballons, I call the resulting
mixture Bondo -although it doesn't achieve the odor of real Bondo.
I do have an unatural attraction to all things polyester - probably
my 70s upbringing.
Regards
Andy Farquhar
27 for a while. It supposedly is not as prone to water-induced
"Bondo blowout" and yet smells the same. I still call the new stuff
Bondo. If I mix West epoxy with microballons, I call the resulting
mixture Bondo -although it doesn't achieve the odor of real Bondo.
I do have an unatural attraction to all things polyester - probably
my 70s upbringing.
Regards
Andy Farquhar