Re: [bolger] Re: Iso vs Ortho polyester
If I understand correctly, epoxy will stretch 3.5-4.5% and this is important
because the stretch ability of the resin (whichever type) must be sufficient
to cover the stretch of the substrate (usually wood in our case). Seems to
me I recall something about comparing the stretch of the goo with the stretch
of the wood, but beyond that I don't know if it is too much of an issue.
Pettit, the paint and epoxy company has recently released an epoxy
glue/filler that is designed for major flex. Anyone seen or used it?
Best regards,
Warren
In a message dated 3/13/2001 9:38:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lincolnr@...writes:
<< Also, I note Aircraft Spruce says iso is flexible. Maybe this
adversely affects the properties of a structural layup (and maybe
that's ok for most of our applications). I've used it. Seems to behave
much like ortho, except no surface wax. I wonder what the shelf life
is? >>
because the stretch ability of the resin (whichever type) must be sufficient
to cover the stretch of the substrate (usually wood in our case). Seems to
me I recall something about comparing the stretch of the goo with the stretch
of the wood, but beyond that I don't know if it is too much of an issue.
Pettit, the paint and epoxy company has recently released an epoxy
glue/filler that is designed for major flex. Anyone seen or used it?
Best regards,
Warren
In a message dated 3/13/2001 9:38:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lincolnr@...writes:
<< Also, I note Aircraft Spruce says iso is flexible. Maybe this
adversely affects the properties of a structural layup (and maybe
that's ok for most of our applications). I've used it. Seems to behave
much like ortho, except no surface wax. I wonder what the shelf life
is? >>
Hmm. Many interesting questions have arisen regarding the resin issue. I
will do some more research on this by posing the group's questions to my
boatbuilder friends on Gabriola who are the ones who first introduced the
"iso" concept to me.
The questions I have gleaned so far from group responses, plus a couple of
mine are, loosely,
1.Does it stick to wood?
2.Why is it not more widely used?
3.What about vinylester resins?
4.Is it cost effective compared to ortho?
5. Is it harder to use than ortho?
6. Are there applications where ortho resin is better to use, and iso is
contra-indicated?
If anyone has other questions, please send them along. I will put them all
to the experts at Amor Marine and get some solid answers, then report back
what I find.
It seems like the right time these days to finally take advantage of that
1950's adage, "Better Living through Chemistry"! Only it should be "Better
Boatbuilding through Chemistry". I'd like to believe that if one is willing
to risk getting on a steep learning curve with different kinds of materials
and their use, one could reap the benefits of using the materials without
too much risk. Well...it's a nice idea anyhow!
Cheers,
Alex Christie
Denman Island, BC
will do some more research on this by posing the group's questions to my
boatbuilder friends on Gabriola who are the ones who first introduced the
"iso" concept to me.
The questions I have gleaned so far from group responses, plus a couple of
mine are, loosely,
1.Does it stick to wood?
2.Why is it not more widely used?
3.What about vinylester resins?
4.Is it cost effective compared to ortho?
5. Is it harder to use than ortho?
6. Are there applications where ortho resin is better to use, and iso is
contra-indicated?
If anyone has other questions, please send them along. I will put them all
to the experts at Amor Marine and get some solid answers, then report back
what I find.
It seems like the right time these days to finally take advantage of that
1950's adage, "Better Living through Chemistry"! Only it should be "Better
Boatbuilding through Chemistry". I'd like to believe that if one is willing
to risk getting on a steep learning curve with different kinds of materials
and their use, one could reap the benefits of using the materials without
too much risk. Well...it's a nice idea anyhow!
Cheers,
Alex Christie
Denman Island, BC
--- In bolger@y..., "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@m...> wrote:
Oh well -- there goes my dream of world-domination-via-monopolistic-
isothalic-polyester-resin-empire. . . .
At $22-25 a gallon, it might be a good compromise glue/coating for
knockabout boats. I'd be curious to hear if anyone gives it a try. I
do wonder about all the specifics of adhesion and strength.
All best,
Garth
> They are, see:boat.
>http://www.mertons.com/poly03.htm
> note the price difference, which might be significant on a large
Oh well -- there goes my dream of world-domination-via-monopolistic-
isothalic-polyester-resin-empire. . . .
At $22-25 a gallon, it might be a good compromise glue/coating for
knockabout boats. I'd be curious to hear if anyone gives it a try. I
do wonder about all the specifics of adhesion and strength.
All best,
Garth
They are, see:
http://www.mertons.com/poly03.htm
note the price difference, which might be significant on a large boat.
Also, you can get it from Aircraft Spruce, but it's more expensive.
What about vinyl ester?
Also, I note Aircraft Spruce says iso is flexible. Maybe this
adversely affects the properties of a structural layup (and maybe
that's ok for most of our applications). I've used it. Seems to behave
much like ortho, except no surface wax. I wonder what the shelf life
is?
http://www.mertons.com/poly03.htm
note the price difference, which might be significant on a large boat.
Also, you can get it from Aircraft Spruce, but it's more expensive.
What about vinyl ester?
Also, I note Aircraft Spruce says iso is flexible. Maybe this
adversely affects the properties of a structural layup (and maybe
that's ok for most of our applications). I've used it. Seems to behave
much like ortho, except no surface wax. I wonder what the shelf life
is?
--- In bolger@y..., garth@b... wrote:
> I'm mystified about this. If Iso is so great, why isn't anyone
> retailing it in gallon jugs to us home boatbuilders? And why is
Ortho
> so widely available when it sounds so inferior?
>
> Generally, when there's the teeniest gap in the supply-demand
fabric,
> some enterprising soul jumps in and makes some money off of it --
> serving us all well in the process. So, either 1) there's something
> that isn't as great as it all sounds about Iso, or 2) one of us
> should buy a big drum of it and some gallon jugs, start marketing
it,
> and make a fortune.
>
> Small-time capitalist that I am,
> Garth
I'm mystified about this. If Iso is so great, why isn't anyone
retailing it in gallon jugs to us home boatbuilders? And why is Ortho
so widely available when it sounds so inferior?
Generally, when there's the teeniest gap in the supply-demand fabric,
some enterprising soul jumps in and makes some money off of it --
serving us all well in the process. So, either 1) there's something
that isn't as great as it all sounds about Iso, or 2) one of us
should buy a big drum of it and some gallon jugs, start marketing it,
and make a fortune.
Small-time capitalist that I am,
Garth
retailing it in gallon jugs to us home boatbuilders? And why is Ortho
so widely available when it sounds so inferior?
Generally, when there's the teeniest gap in the supply-demand fabric,
some enterprising soul jumps in and makes some money off of it --
serving us all well in the process. So, either 1) there's something
that isn't as great as it all sounds about Iso, or 2) one of us
should buy a big drum of it and some gallon jugs, start marketing it,
and make a fortune.
Small-time capitalist that I am,
Garth
A quick search on Altavista and Yahoo search
engines inputting "Isothalic Resin" yielded interesting results. I noted
that the resin is very popular with surfboard builders, chemical storage tank
builders, and high quality yacht builders, as well as sculptors making
fiberglass statues for themeparks.
The users of isothalic resin cite these advantages over
orthothalic resin:
Chemical resistance
More flexibility
UV resistance (fading and chalking)
Longevity
Resistance to osmotic penetration
Resistance to heat
I know that H. Payson has used and advocated polyester
resins in his boats, but I wonder if he has spoken at all of the
difference between the different types of resin, and what he may have to say
about Isothalic?
Regards,
Alex Christie
Denman Island, BC
" Master boatbuilder . . . Yacht-Designer wife . . . NOT off-the-shelf .
. . industrial . . . by the barrel (55 gal Drum)"
I think those are the KEY words. The boatbuilding industry has known
about the difference between polyester formulations for years. They also
know the difference between 'hand lay-up' and 'chopper gun spraying' as
manufacturing techniques. It's ALL about MONEY.
The 'production boat' builder is going to cut down his overhead as much
as possible within the 'corporate philosophy of quality'. The CUSTOM
builder & Designer is going to do everything he can to ENHANCE their
reputation for QUALITY and performance. 'Pricing' is almost secondary -
if you can't afford it, why are you going to a custom shop? If you can
afford it - you WANT the BEST.
. . industrial . . . by the barrel (55 gal Drum)"
I think those are the KEY words. The boatbuilding industry has known
about the difference between polyester formulations for years. They also
know the difference between 'hand lay-up' and 'chopper gun spraying' as
manufacturing techniques. It's ALL about MONEY.
The 'production boat' builder is going to cut down his overhead as much
as possible within the 'corporate philosophy of quality'. The CUSTOM
builder & Designer is going to do everything he can to ENHANCE their
reputation for QUALITY and performance. 'Pricing' is almost secondary -
if you can't afford it, why are you going to a custom shop? If you can
afford it - you WANT the BEST.