Re: [bolger] Oldshoe

 

There is often a difference between “as drawn” and “as built”. I have no idea what the builder of the aluminum Old Shoe built. “As drawn” shows the keel about 1 ½ inches thick for its entire length, terminating in a flat surface. Slightly behind the end of the keel, there is a rudder consisting of a 1 ½ “ dowel  (rudder post) with flattened sides to accommodate ¼’ rudder sides. The sides are angled to meet at the aft end of the rudder. At the speeds involved, I doubt that there is a great deal of turbulence in this arrangement…

 

JohnT

 

From:bolger@yahoogroups..com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]
Sent:Friday, October 20, 2017 4:42 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Oldshoe

 

 

I've been giving some more thought to the rudder of the aluminium Oldshoe...

Although I haven't found a/the pictures to see the keel and rudder currently on the boat, it occurred to me that if the rudder is indeed centred behind a 7" wide keel box, it must be working in absolutely horrendous turbulence.

The workarounds I can see to this are:

a) Try using parallel rudders (one each corner of the keel) to approximately original size. This won't solve the turbulence between the rudders, but should direct it somewhat and noticeably improve the direction of the flow of water as it runs past the sides of the keel an then the rudder. Those rudders could have endplates on the bottom, but my tendency would be not to overdo it on the inside edges (i.e. in the space between the rudders) as I reckon the turbulence in that area will still be pretty brutal. However, the parallel rudders will serve to effectively direct whatever flows through in approximately the right direction (and possibly also allow space for the outboard to clear properly in reverse - although this hasn't been a problem for me since I simply use the outboard trimmed up 2 stops).

b) Use a solid rudder, approximately the fore/aft and vertical dimensions as originally designed, but wedge shaped when viewed from above, so the width at the rudder post is similar to the width of the keel. You will need some sort of rubberoid flap or blocking to reduce turbulence around the rudder post (due to its disproportional size) and it would almost certainly also benefit from a bottom plate.  The rudder only swings around 45° each side, so you don't (necessarily) need to use a 7" diameter rudder post (and the 3.5" gaps that would imply) although you will still need to allow clearance. You could make make the rudder body free flooding/draining, using relatively small flood holes to avoid it floating up.

c) Use parallel rudders clear of the sides of the box keel so they work in the flow of the water both sides of the keel. This has the advantage of clearing the turbulence at the aft end of the box keel but leaves unprotected rudders (and the question of how/where to mount them...

My inclination would be to try (a) first. Any thoughts anyone?

David

 

I've been giving some more thought to the rudder of the aluminium Oldshoe...

Although I haven't found a/the pictures to see the keel and rudder currently on the boat, it occurred to me that if the rudder is indeed centred behind a 7" wide keel box, it must be working in absolutely horrendous turbulence.

The workarounds I can see to this are:

a) Try using parallel rudders (one each corner of the keel) to approximately original size. This won't solve the turbulence between the rudders, but should direct it somewhat and noticeably improve the direction of the flow of water as it runs past the sides of the keel an then the rudder. Those rudders could have endplates on the bottom, but my tendency would be not to overdo it on the inside edges (i.e. in the space between the rudders) as I reckon the turbulence in that area will still be pretty brutal. However, the parallel rudders will serve to effectively direct whatever flows through in approximately the right direction (and possibly also allow space for the outboard to clear properly in reverse - although this hasn't been a problem for me since I simply use the outboard trimmed up 2 stops).

b) Use a solid rudder, approximately the fore/aft and vertical dimensions as originally designed, but wedge shaped when viewed from above, so the width at the rudder post is similar to the width of the keel. You will need some sort of rubberoid flap or blocking to reduce turbulence around the rudder post (due to its disproportional size) and it would almost certainly also benefit from a bottom plate.  The rudder only swings around 45° each side, so you don't (necessarily) need to use a 7" diameter rudder post (and the 3.5" gaps that would imply) although you will still need to allow clearance. You could make make the rudder body free flooding/draining, using relatively small flood holes to avoid it floating up.

c) Use parallel rudders clear of the sides of the box keel so they work in the flow of the water both sides of the keel. This has the advantage of clearing the turbulence at the aft end of the box keel but leaves unprotected rudders (and the question of how/where to mount them....

My inclination would be to try (a) first. Any thoughts anyone?

David

On October 20, 2017 1:42:00 PM PDT, David wrote:
>I've been giving some more thought to the rudder of the aluminium
>Oldshoe...
>
>Although I haven't found a/the pictures to see the keel and rudder
>currently on the boat, it occurred to me that if the rudder is indeed
>centred behind a 7" wide keel box, it must be working in absolutely
>horrendous turbulence.
> ...


>My inclination would be to try (a) first. Any thoughts anyone?
>
>David

--
John <jkohnen@...>
A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought. (Lord Peter Wimsey)
Sent from some sort of mobile device.

On 10/13/2017 6:03 AM, Buddy wrote:
> ...
> On my new to me Old Shoe, it looks like the original keel is about 1.5
> ft by 1.5 feet. Which was probably woefully undersized because it is
> also sitting behind a fixed keel that is 7 inches wide. So what has been
> bolted to that is an aluminum plate that ends up making the rudder more
> like 3ft long by 1.5 ft tall. And if I need to even more rudder
> authority I can just bolt on another plate that makes the rudder as long
> as I need it to be....
>
> Which brings up a few questions. What is it about a horizontal bottom
> plate that makes the rudder more effective?  And what kind of dimensions
> are we talking about here? Easy enough to add to this particular rig.
> ...
--
--
John (jkohnen@...)
When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire
kind people. (Abraham Joshua Heschel)

On 10/12/2017 6:51 AM, COD wrote:
>
>
> The rudder should be shaped like an inverted T under the stern. Maybe
> your builder went for a bigger rudder.
> ...
> The Oldshoe makes a lot of leeway upwind or reaching in a good breeze.
> Not enough keel. John H used to rely on his small outboard when he had
> to get home.
> ...
> As far as the centerboard, I really don't know, but maybe someone here
> could chime in. An alternative could be a pair of bilge keels along the
> bottom, since the Oldshoe doesn't really sit upright when beached. That
> would do it. > ...

--
John (jkohnen@...)
One cat just leads to another. (Ernest Hemingway)

 

The rudder should be shaped like an inverted T under the stern. Maybe your builder went for a bigger rudder.

(I'd probably end up adding a "barn door" style if I had an Oldshoe). See classic catboat design.

The Oldshoe makes a lot of leeway upwind or reaching in a good breeze. Not enough keel. John H used to rely on his small outboard when he had to get home.

I remember an especially exciting time in the lower Chester River in Maryland - notoriously rough because the tide runs out around a wide 180 degree turn that happens to face a long stretch of open water - any north, northwest, or west wind manages to blow into your face there.

As far as the centerboard, I really don't know, but maybe someone here could chime in. An alternative could be a pair of bilge keels along the bottom, since the Oldshoe doesn't really sit upright when beached. That would do it.

No design is perfect, alas.

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 18:15:04 -0700, gurnemanz wrote:

> How tough was she to build? Do you recall the time investment?

--
John (jkohnen@...)
A paranoid is a man who knows a little of what's going on. (William
Burroughs)

I too have genuinely enjoyed my Oldshoe.

The kids have learned to sail in her. I have taken my Father in law (who can hardly walk) as well as very small kids sailing with never significant worry or risk. Unless you really intentionally abuse her, she takes care of her crew.
David

On Tue, 01 Apr 2014 05:33:52 -0700, c.ruzer wrote:

>
>
> Recent
>http://dory-man.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/old-shoe.html
> and again
>https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/conversations/messages/69274
>https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/photos/albums/1239860332
>https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/conversations/messages/69795
>https://plus.google.com/photos/112780657062216969446/albums/5521742038200408817?banner=pwa
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=X0syAzoD1nc
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDy1j5ANtyo
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfj8i-GM6TE
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS7PTZCe-V8
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-rvu9seWXI

--
John (jkohnen@...)
Boats, like whiskey, are all good. (R. D. "Pete" Culler)

Recent

http://dory-man.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/old-shoe.html

and again

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/conversations/messages/69274

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=X0syAzoD1nc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDy1j5ANtyo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfj8i-GM6TE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS7PTZCe-V8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-rvu9seWXI

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe T" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
>
> Dennis, can you say where she went? Someone in that area might want to keep a lookout for her. I know I would like to see her if she is in my area, Monterrey Bay.
>
> Joe T
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dennislancaster789" <dennislancaster789@> wrote:
> >
> > Just a heads up that my Oldshoe sold today... happy and sad at the same time, but she went to a good home.
> >
> > Fairwinds,
> >
> > Dennis Lancaster
> > Bellingham, WA
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dennislancaster789" <dennislancaster789@...> wrote:
>
> Just a heads up that my Oldshoe sold today... happy and sad at the same time, but she went to a good home.
>
> Fairwinds,
>
> Dennis Lancaster
> Bellingham, WA
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
>Lots of good photos and files.
>> Dennis

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "col8.7own" <col8.7own@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@> wrote:
> >Tks Joe, what is bolger6? I thought I was logged into the bolger
> group.
>
> Dennis
> > Dennis
> >
> > See photos in Bolger 6 here:
> >http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/efcb
> >
> > The green one I built in 1988. Sold last summer to Rosalie in
> Seattle.
> > Google will get you a few good links.
> >
> > Joe T

>Tks Joe, what is bolger6? I thought I was logged into the bolger

> Dennis
>
> See photos in Bolger 6 here:
>http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/efcb
>
> The green one I built in 1988. Sold last summer to Rosalie in

> Google will get you a few good links.
>
> Joe T
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "col8.7own" <col8.7own@> wrote:
> >
> > Good evening folks,
> >
> > I'm new to this list and am seeking information about Bolger's

> > day sailor. I am down sizing from my Columbia 8.7 and am

> > easy to single-hand, day sailor to carry me into my retirement.
> > I'm finding it difficult to get very much information on this

> > There is more on the Micro (which I find that I like just as

> > but the Oldshoe is a bit of mystery.
> > Can anyone who has built one of these boats tell me about the

> > and the boat?
> > Thanking you in advance.
> > Best regards and fairwinds,
> >
> > Dennis
> > Bellingham, Washington
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "col8.7own" <col8.7own@...> wrote:
>
> Good evening folks,
>
> I'm new to this list and am seeking information about Bolger's Oldshoe
> day sailor. I am down sizing from my Columbia 8.7 and am seeking a
> easy to single-hand, day sailor to carry me into my retirement.
> I'm finding it difficult to get very much information on this boat.
> There is more on the Micro (which I find that I like just as well),
> but the Oldshoe is a bit of mystery.
> Can anyone who has built one of these boats tell me about the build
> and the boat?
> Thanking you in advance.
> Best regards and fairwinds,
>
> Dennis
> Bellingham, Washington
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "bigboa44" <brosen1953@o...> wrote:

Barry,
There is/was a Yahoo group specific to the OLDSHOE that may be worth
checking out if it does indeed still exists.
Beyond that,I know nothing about the OLDSHOE other then to suggest a
MICRO,Queen of the fleet, for your sailing area.You won't miss not
having a comfortable cabin to take your pleasures in :-)

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan,builder and ex-owner of the Micro LESTAT,whose eyes
sometimes leak when looking over"old" pictures of her and wonder if
she is being good to her new owner,way out there in the middle of
Canada..............






> I am thinking about building an oldshoe for use on Long Island Sound
> and I was wondering if anyone could provide information on the
> following:
>
> 1. How well does the boat sail in light winds?
>
> 2. What is the approximate building costs?
>
> 3. Are there any alternatives to casting the lead keel myself (e.g.,
> buying a keel, filling with other materials like concrete or lead
> shot, etc.)?
>
> I appreciate your help
> Thanks.
> Barry
>

> Always wear a respirator rated for chemical fumes when melting lead!

----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hallman
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Oldshoe


> 3. Are there any alternatives to casting the lead keel myself
> Barry

Before you give up on building the boat 'per plans', with
a cast lead keel ballast; try melting some lead just
to see how easy it is to do.

For my Micro, I built a fire using BBQ charcoal
under a used steel 5 gallon paint can propped up
on some bricks. I then dipped the lead out using
a home made ladle [a can nailed to a stick],
and poured it into a mold. The shape wasn't
perfect, but the lead casting was trimmed
easily with my Skilsaw.

http://image08.webshots.com/8/0/6/44/121100644qadyRL_fs.jpg

I spent more time worrying about it than
actually doing it.


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- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 3. Are there any alternatives to casting the lead keel myself
> Barry

> 3. Are there any alternatives to casting the lead keel myself
> Barry

--- Inbolger@egroups.com, KF4call@a... wrote:
> >I was considering the Oldshoe to build. Anyone was experience
with
> >this design?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Niels
> >
> Niels,
> There is a group for "Oldshoe builders, owners and
daydreamers" on the
> egroups system. There are about 40 members. Right now the group
is quiet,
> but my guess is that if you were to join and ask a few questions,
you might
> stir up some interest and generate some postings(even though it is
the
> holiday season)
> There are also a number of older writings in the "files"
section
> containing reviews of the design (and the finished boat) as well
as
> building tips. This would include some selections by very
knowledgable
> owners who write in a compelling and informative way. I'll be
happy to
> answer any specific questions you may have.
>
>
> I chose Oldshoe because of the apparent safety of the design.
Also, it
> seems suitable for camping/beach cruising for one or two. The
construction
> is plywood on frame. I am using exterior b-c pine for mine. The
design
> calls for a lead keel. Some of the group members have speculated
that the
> lead shape may be available from folks who build x-ray departments
for
> hospitals, thus circumventing the need to work with molten lead,
if that is
> an issue. Otherwise construction does not appear to be too
difficult and the
> design does not appear to call for any specialty tools. However, I
am still
> at a very early stage in the construction of mine.
> Best regards, Warren

> I was considering the Oldshoe to build. Anyone was experience with
> this design?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Niels

>I was considering the Oldshoe to build. Anyone was experience with
>this design?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Niels
>

--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Vince Chew" <vachew@f...> wrote:
> Niels,
>
> There is a news group for the Oldshoe. Have you seen it?
>http://www.egroups.com/group/Oldshoe
>
> Vince Chew
>
> --- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Niels Wade" <sailzafu@n...> wrote:
> > I was considering the Oldshoe to build. Anyone was experience
with
> > this design?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Niels

--- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Niels Wade" <sailzafu@n...> wrote:
> I was considering the Oldshoe to build. Anyone was experience with
> this design?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Niels

> Hi all, I've just discovered this group but I'm not sure if I qualify

> membership as I don't own a bolger boat, only one of his books.
> I tried searching the messages for mention of Oldshoe and got no

> anyone have any experience or thoughts about it? All contributions

> appreciated.
> John Paul
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

>Oldshoe.txt in the vault just comes up as nonsense characters for me.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>CNET Gamecenter
>Get tips and cheats
>http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1883
>
>
>-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
>--http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=bolger&m=1
>
>
>

>8 years ago in Annapolis and restored. Cruised Northern Chesapeake for
>several years, now trailered across-country to Tacoma WA with plans for
>weekending in Puget Sound. Will discuss my designs for mast-tabernacle (has
>made raising the mainmast much easier), mast and boom crutches for
>trailering, and multi-part leeboard-hoisting tackle with any interested
>owners. >>

>X-eGroups-Return:WGilham@...
>Delivered-To:listsaver-egroups-bolger-owner@egroups.com
>From:WGilham@...
>Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 04:04:07 EST
>Subject: New member of Group: Black Skimmer owner
>To:bolger-owner@egroups.com
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>Just joining: my boat is a Bolger Black Skimmer, rescued from neglect about
>8 years ago in Annapolis and restored. Cruised Northern Chesapeake for
>several years, now trailered across-country to Tacoma WA with plans for
>weekending in Puget Sound. Will discuss my designs for mast-tabernacle (has
>made raising the mainmast much easier), mast and boom crutches for
>trailering, and multi-part leeboard-hoisting tackle with any interested
>owners.
>