Re: Oregon Pine- Douglas Fir "Rant"
WARNING: A rant of the socialist, tree hugging kind follows. Those
who insist on remaining strictly on topic should choose not to read
on.
who insist on remaining strictly on topic should choose not to read
on.
--- In bolger@y..., Chris Crandall <crandall@u...> wrote:
> It's a point of view, but a pretty unhappy one. If everything is a
> commodity, why stop at humans? Why are humans so special in this
economic
> model of the world? If everything under the sun is just a crop,
then
> humans are too, unless you've a value system that says otherwise.
>
> The only answer to this is to take a moral stance of some sort.
And this
> moral stance is the foundation of politics and other value
judgments.
Humans are not special. We have not been spared from the
commercialization of our natural world. Native Americans plains
dwellers and Gaelic-speaking Scots are just two groups of people who
had to make way for more commercially efficient use of the land - one
group was replaced by cattle, the other by sheep. The Kulaks of
Russia and the aborigines of Australia also come to mind as cultures
that have been destroyed in the name of progress and economic
efficiency. Ethnic cleansing in the name of economic progress is as
old as human civilization. In the process we lose the richness of
culture with the profits going to some long dead laird or sheep
station owner.
As for politicization of this list, I always assumed that, since at
least some of this group may actually sail every now and then, we
would naturally consider ourselves to be mild conservationists. I,
for one, choose to sail in the Delaware Bay off undeveloped wetlands
rather than within sight of the oil refineries of Philadelphia or
Marcus Hook. I really don't care that the wetlands may not be the
most commercially efficient use of the land (although the commercial
fisheries are directly dependant on the health of the wetlands). I
dare say most of us want to sail, at least occasionally, in clean
water off undeveloped shores. What is it that we gain from enjoying
clean water and wilderness? I don't know, but I want my children to
enjoy it too.
I also assumed that members of this group were of a minimalist bent.
I associate excessive consumption of our resources with our plastic
speedboat or "personal watercraft" brethren.
As for old growth trees, by and large they are on public land and
belong to us. I'm sick of the lumber industry's sense of entitlement
to public land - it's not theirs. I'm also sick of corporate
America's sense of entitlement to our air and water - and you
Europeans' air and water as well (see Kyoto). They act as if they are
being deprived of some god-given right to poison us every time more
stringent regulations are promulgated. And if you speak up against
them, your a socialist or a tree hugger.
Sorry again for the rant.
Regards
Andy Farquhar
On Tue, 24 Apr 2001StepHydro@...wrote:
comes out is so many ways, it's almost impossible to say something
intelligent and have it *not* be political.
That said, I don't think that bemoaning the fact that all the wonderful
old growth trees were logged and are gone, gone, gone, is "socialism".
It ain't.
commodity, why stop at humans? Why are humans so special in this economic
model of the world? If everything under the sun is just a crop, then
humans are too, unless you've a value system that says otherwise.
The only answer to this is to take a moral stance of some sort. And this
moral stance is the foundation of politics and other value judgments.
(1) It's inevitable, because politics affects virtually everything, and
(2) Bolger includes plenty of politics in his own writings.
That said, focusing on boats is smart, but a side trip into the
consequences of seeking out primo virgin timber for play-time spars should
be fair game. Don't you think?
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
> I didn't realize that I'd politicized the list, except in response toDon--the list is politicized, and we're all doing it. It's inevitable--it
> "first strikes" like the present one. I continue to be amazed that any
> first strike with a socialist point of view is accepted. It is only
> the response from someone who values personal liberty over statism
> that draws ire.
comes out is so many ways, it's almost impossible to say something
intelligent and have it *not* be political.
That said, I don't think that bemoaning the fact that all the wonderful
old growth trees were logged and are gone, gone, gone, is "socialism".
It ain't.
> Here it is from another point of view: trees are crops, just likeIt's a point of view, but a pretty unhappy one. If everything is a
> broccoli. Each crop has its appropriate husbandry, but each will
> survive and thrive in less than perfect conditions. The idea of "old
> growth forests" is a fable, pretty well debunked in an article in
> National Geographic a decade ago, but still used to flog "the evil
> capitalists" even today.
commodity, why stop at humans? Why are humans so special in this economic
model of the world? If everything under the sun is just a crop, then
humans are too, unless you've a value system that says otherwise.
The only answer to this is to take a moral stance of some sort. And this
moral stance is the foundation of politics and other value judgments.
> We on this list mostly get along when it comes to boats. We all knowTwo issues to this:
> the bounds of discussion on that topic. Bringing in divisive personal
> political ideology does not do us honor.
(1) It's inevitable, because politics affects virtually everything, and
(2) Bolger includes plenty of politics in his own writings.
That said, focusing on boats is smart, but a side trip into the
consequences of seeking out primo virgin timber for play-time spars should
be fair game. Don't you think?
>Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
> Boats, boats, boats.
>
> Cheers/Carron
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
> - no flogging dead horses
> - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
> - stay on topic and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
In a message dated 04/24/2001 9:<BR52:<BR21 PM
Eastern Daylight ,phillip_lea@...writes:> Trees are boats before the
work begins! What article are
You'll have to do the research yourself :-) I read the article in a Dr's
office and thought hmmmm.
As I remember, satellite mapping was used to uncover traces of past forests.
The patterns of growth showed that the life of a particular bio(something or
other) was on the order of 300 years, with some few lasting 5 or 600 years
and the odd one much longer. The conclusion was that "nature" (hoping for a
neutral word :-) diversified not only over species, but over time and
location, constantly shifting the resources.
Please don't take me to task if I missed the numbers by a few decades when
you find the study. I'm just trying to convey the idea.
Cheers/Carron
Eastern Daylight ,phillip_lea@...writes:> Trees are boats before the
work begins! What article are
> you talking about? "Old growth forests a fable" this is newsPhillip,
> to me. Please expound or provide reference.
You'll have to do the research yourself :-) I read the article in a Dr's
office and thought hmmmm.
As I remember, satellite mapping was used to uncover traces of past forests.
The patterns of growth showed that the life of a particular bio(something or
other) was on the order of 300 years, with some few lasting 5 or 600 years
and the odd one much longer. The conclusion was that "nature" (hoping for a
neutral word :-) diversified not only over species, but over time and
location, constantly shifting the resources.
Please don't take me to task if I missed the numbers by a few decades when
you find the study. I'm just trying to convey the idea.
Cheers/Carron
Trees are boats before the work begins! What article are
you talking about? "Old growth forests a fable" this is news
to me. Please expound or provide reference.
Phil Lea
Russellville, Arkansas -- Where our pines and oaks date no
later than 1942.
you talking about? "Old growth forests a fable" this is news
to me. Please expound or provide reference.
Phil Lea
Russellville, Arkansas -- Where our pines and oaks date no
later than 1942.
--- In bolger@y..., StepHydro@a... wrote:
[snip]
> The idea of "old growth forests"
> is a fable, pretty well debunked in an article in National
> Geographic a decade ago, but
> still used to flog "the evil capitalists" even today.
[snip]
> Cheers/Carron
Chris,
I didn't realize that I'd politicized the list, except in response to "first
strikes" like the present one. I continue to be amazed that any first strike
with a socialist point of view is accepted. It is only the response from
someone who values personal liberty over statism that draws ire.
Here it is from another point of view: trees are crops, just like broccoli.
Each crop has its appropriate husbandry, but each will survive and thrive in
less than perfect conditions. The idea of "old growth forests" is a fable,
pretty well debunked in an article in National Geographic a decade ago, but
still used to flog "the evil capitalists" even today.
We on this list mostly get along when it comes to boats. We all know the
bounds of discussion on that topic. Bringing in divisive personal political
ideology does not do us honor.
Boats, boats, boats.
Cheers/Carron
I didn't realize that I'd politicized the list, except in response to "first
strikes" like the present one. I continue to be amazed that any first strike
with a socialist point of view is accepted. It is only the response from
someone who values personal liberty over statism that draws ire.
Here it is from another point of view: trees are crops, just like broccoli.
Each crop has its appropriate husbandry, but each will survive and thrive in
less than perfect conditions. The idea of "old growth forests" is a fable,
pretty well debunked in an article in National Geographic a decade ago, but
still used to flog "the evil capitalists" even today.
We on this list mostly get along when it comes to boats. We all know the
bounds of discussion on that topic. Bringing in divisive personal political
ideology does not do us honor.
Boats, boats, boats.
Cheers/Carron
On Tue, 24 Apr 2001StepHydro@...wrote:
It's germane to boatbuilding (where have all the old trees gone?).
It's interesting.
And, where it was going was pretty obvious, and the delete key works
so well. It was even labeled "rant" in the header--pretty good practice.
> Now, does someone from the other side get equal time? I can'tIt's never stopped you, Don.
> understand why some folks feel that these lists are fair victims for
> *their* political view. Carron
It's germane to boatbuilding (where have all the old trees gone?).
It's interesting.
And, where it was going was pretty obvious, and the delete key works
so well. It was even labeled "rant" in the header--pretty good practice.
Now, does someone from the other side get equal time?
I can't understand why some folks feel that these lists are fair victims for
*their* political view.
Carron
I can't understand why some folks feel that these lists are fair victims for
*their* political view.
Carron
Exactly right.
Most of the Old Growth 300-500 year old Douglas fir in Oregon
on public lands (BLM and "National Forests") is gone except
for a few "Wilderness Areas" Best guess is only about 2-5%
of "Old Growth' left in Oregon,(Including Wilderness) and the Big
Logging Companies have left the State, or are logging second and
third growth trees. After taking 95% of the "Public Lands" trees, the
logging companies are still crying that there should be a "Balance"
between Preservation and Logging, and most of our US Congresspeople
have always sided with the Big Logging companies. Some of you may
remember our Senator Packwood, who became notorious for his sexual
escapades, and finally had to resign from the US Senate, but was
better know here in Oregon as Senator Plywood. He never saw an "Old
Growth" tree except in the terms of a political contribution.
There are still "Tree Huggers" (I use that in a good way) that
are still willing to stand in the way of logging equipment, and go
to jail to try to protect the remaining Big Trees Here.
There is one stand of "Old Growth" just east of Portland Oregon,
in a sensative drinking water watershed,that even the Logging Company
does not want to cut, and has been so far protected by "Young
People" "Tree Sitting" to stop the cutting, but the US Forest Service
insists it "Must Be Cut". Figure that one out.
All the "Old Growth" on Private lands is being exported, because the
prices are 2-3 time greater there.
I to have grown up in the Northwest, and my father, in fact, managed
a "Pole Plant" in Albany Oregon that was owned by a Big Company
headquartered in Chicago that closed in 1975 because all the "Poles"
125'plus,"Old Growth" poles, on public lands, became too scarce, and
therefore too expensive for the company to make any money. And I am a
wooden furniture builder by trade.
It takes 200-400 years for a tree to grow to the size that the
original GP, LP, Weyerhouser, Crown Z, companies came here to cut,
and they are all gone.
I live in Molalla, Oregon. Crown Z built a private road from their
timber holdings on the upper Molalla River, to the Willamette River
so they could drive their tripple tailer 10' wide bunk trucks to
dump them into the Willamette to send these 5-8 foot diameter trees
to their paper plant to be "Chipped" and made into paper.
Road was right behind our home at the time, and I would just watch
them go by, just like trains, one after another.
They are all gone now, No "Old Growth" on the Molalla, and Crown
closed it's Lumber mill, which actually cut some of those trees into
clear VG fir lumber, about 15 years ago, putting about 1/4 of the
population of Molalla out of work.
Sorry about the "Off Topic" rant, but I am now 52 years old (Too
old and too banged up to sit in a tree), but I have seen it happen
in my lifetime, and it saddens me.
My wife is Executive Director of Molalla RiverWatch
(http://molallariverwatch.org/index.html),
that is a small, local group, of mostly long time residents of
the area that is actually working closly with the Local BLM folks
to try and rehabilitate the devastion of the Upper Molalla River
valley. They are doing a great job, but 500 years is a long time to
try to fix.
It seems the only way things are going to made right is by people
that care.
Anybody that would like to become a memeber or Molalla RiverWatch
Can do so from their website. I rant and rave, but she does the
real work, and it would be a great surprize to her if somebody
out there in "Bolgerland" could spring for the $15 to become a member
http://molallariverwatch.org/volunteer-form.html
Probaly the best $15 you ever spent.
Not for you, but for your Great Grandchilden. What do we tell them?
Some folks still have the energy to try to make things better.
Anybody that would like more info and history can contact me at
pateson@...
Pat
Most of the Old Growth 300-500 year old Douglas fir in Oregon
on public lands (BLM and "National Forests") is gone except
for a few "Wilderness Areas" Best guess is only about 2-5%
of "Old Growth' left in Oregon,(Including Wilderness) and the Big
Logging Companies have left the State, or are logging second and
third growth trees. After taking 95% of the "Public Lands" trees, the
logging companies are still crying that there should be a "Balance"
between Preservation and Logging, and most of our US Congresspeople
have always sided with the Big Logging companies. Some of you may
remember our Senator Packwood, who became notorious for his sexual
escapades, and finally had to resign from the US Senate, but was
better know here in Oregon as Senator Plywood. He never saw an "Old
Growth" tree except in the terms of a political contribution.
There are still "Tree Huggers" (I use that in a good way) that
are still willing to stand in the way of logging equipment, and go
to jail to try to protect the remaining Big Trees Here.
There is one stand of "Old Growth" just east of Portland Oregon,
in a sensative drinking water watershed,that even the Logging Company
does not want to cut, and has been so far protected by "Young
People" "Tree Sitting" to stop the cutting, but the US Forest Service
insists it "Must Be Cut". Figure that one out.
All the "Old Growth" on Private lands is being exported, because the
prices are 2-3 time greater there.
I to have grown up in the Northwest, and my father, in fact, managed
a "Pole Plant" in Albany Oregon that was owned by a Big Company
headquartered in Chicago that closed in 1975 because all the "Poles"
125'plus,"Old Growth" poles, on public lands, became too scarce, and
therefore too expensive for the company to make any money. And I am a
wooden furniture builder by trade.
It takes 200-400 years for a tree to grow to the size that the
original GP, LP, Weyerhouser, Crown Z, companies came here to cut,
and they are all gone.
I live in Molalla, Oregon. Crown Z built a private road from their
timber holdings on the upper Molalla River, to the Willamette River
so they could drive their tripple tailer 10' wide bunk trucks to
dump them into the Willamette to send these 5-8 foot diameter trees
to their paper plant to be "Chipped" and made into paper.
Road was right behind our home at the time, and I would just watch
them go by, just like trains, one after another.
They are all gone now, No "Old Growth" on the Molalla, and Crown
closed it's Lumber mill, which actually cut some of those trees into
clear VG fir lumber, about 15 years ago, putting about 1/4 of the
population of Molalla out of work.
Sorry about the "Off Topic" rant, but I am now 52 years old (Too
old and too banged up to sit in a tree), but I have seen it happen
in my lifetime, and it saddens me.
My wife is Executive Director of Molalla RiverWatch
(http://molallariverwatch.org/index.html),
that is a small, local group, of mostly long time residents of
the area that is actually working closly with the Local BLM folks
to try and rehabilitate the devastion of the Upper Molalla River
valley. They are doing a great job, but 500 years is a long time to
try to fix.
It seems the only way things are going to made right is by people
that care.
Anybody that would like to become a memeber or Molalla RiverWatch
Can do so from their website. I rant and rave, but she does the
real work, and it would be a great surprize to her if somebody
out there in "Bolgerland" could spring for the $15 to become a member
http://molallariverwatch.org/volunteer-form.html
Probaly the best $15 you ever spent.
Not for you, but for your Great Grandchilden. What do we tell them?
Some folks still have the energy to try to make things better.
Anybody that would like more info and history can contact me at
pateson@...
Pat
--- In bolger@e..., Chris Crandall <crandall@u...> wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Apr 2001 wattleweedooseeds@b... wrote:
> > Built my first mast a couple of days ago . 15'6" of smooth ,round
> > laminated oregon.
>
> To all Americans who might think that our friend from Oz took a
bunch of
> slabs of the State of Oregon, and glued them into a mast, "oregon"
means
> "Oregon Pine" which people in Oregon (and the rest of the USA and
Canada)
> call "Douglas Fir".
>
> Virtually none of the DF on the market comes from Oregon--if it's
> beautiful and knot-free, it probably came from British Columbia,
Canada.
> If it's crummy looking, it might have come from any of the western
USA.
>
>
> Chris (born, raised, educated in Washington State, which logs more
Douglas
> Fir than "Oregon" to the south, and currently residing in
Vancouver, BC).
On Sat, 21 Apr 2001wattleweedooseeds@...wrote:
slabs of the State of Oregon, and glued them into a mast, "oregon" means
"Oregon Pine" which people in Oregon (and the rest of the USA and Canada)
call "Douglas Fir".
Virtually none of the DF on the market comes from Oregon--if it's
beautiful and knot-free, it probably came from British Columbia, Canada.
If it's crummy looking, it might have come from any of the western USA.
Chris (born, raised, educated in Washington State, which logs more Douglas
Fir than "Oregon" to the south, and currently residing in Vancouver, BC).
> Built my first mast a couple of days ago . 15'6" of smooth ,roundTo all Americans who might think that our friend from Oz took a bunch of
> laminated oregon.
slabs of the State of Oregon, and glued them into a mast, "oregon" means
"Oregon Pine" which people in Oregon (and the rest of the USA and Canada)
call "Douglas Fir".
Virtually none of the DF on the market comes from Oregon--if it's
beautiful and knot-free, it probably came from British Columbia, Canada.
If it's crummy looking, it might have come from any of the western USA.
Chris (born, raised, educated in Washington State, which logs more Douglas
Fir than "Oregon" to the south, and currently residing in Vancouver, BC).
Sounds like fun. Somewhere in the back of my memory banks I have this
idea that there is a "rule of thumb" about how far apart the hulls should be
for a given length. The idea being that the bow wave of one should not
interfere with the opposite hull until it reaches a certain point aft. Don't
remember where I saw this and don't even know if it is correct, or just
something I heard, or even what the result would be of having them "too"
close together. Anyone else have a feeling on the 5 ft. width?
Regards,
Warren
idea that there is a "rule of thumb" about how far apart the hulls should be
for a given length. The idea being that the bow wave of one should not
interfere with the opposite hull until it reaches a certain point aft. Don't
remember where I saw this and don't even know if it is correct, or just
something I heard, or even what the result would be of having them "too"
close together. Anyone else have a feeling on the 5 ft. width?
Regards,
Warren
>what do I spy about to
>be bulldozed? 2 of 14'fibreglass cat hulls. "help, help" theycried to
>me in that special voice that only a boatie can hear. Aquick chat
>with the tippie and off we go home with our 'new' boat. free, my
>favourite price. Since my shed is overstocked with old sails and
>masts it shouldnt take long to build something. Weve an idea for a
>narrow cat 5' wide, (fits in my mates roof rack) with a
>shortmast ,
In a message dated 04/21/2001 8:<BR12:<BR45 AM
Eastern Daylight ,wattleweedooseeds@...writes:
:-) / carron
Eastern Daylight ,wattleweedooseeds@...writes:
> still no rainRain??? In Kalgoorlie??? Isn't that where they use beer to make bricks???
> cheers for now , Paul day , kalgoorlie
:-) / carron
What a strange day. I went to my yard to put yhe new june bug on the
trailer to take it out next day, but the trailer is full of rubbish.
So off to the tip I go. I get to the tip and what do I spy about to
be bulldozed? 2 of 14'fibreglass cat hulls. "help, help" theycried to
me in that special voice that only a boatie can hear. Aquick chat
with the tippie and off we go home with our 'new' boat. free, my
favourite price. Since my shed is overstocked with old sails and
masts it shouldnt take long to build something. Weve an idea for a
narrow cat 5' wide, (fits in my mates roof rack) with a
shortmast ,15' this will fit hislandyacht sail add an old jib, new
rudders, and a solid trampoline to take a rowing seat. Add rowlocks
oars and an outboard mount.Then he'll be able to come sailing with me
and the kids but not be in the way. I get the feeling that a fleet is
growing around me just like when I started building landyachts.
The last 3 months photos have been snt off for printing so piccies
soon , still no rain.
Built my first mast a couple of days ago . 15'6" of smooth ,round
laminated oregon. A beautiful thing to behold. Incredibly easy from
start to finish. still no rain
cheers for now , Paul day , kalgoorlie
trailer to take it out next day, but the trailer is full of rubbish.
So off to the tip I go. I get to the tip and what do I spy about to
be bulldozed? 2 of 14'fibreglass cat hulls. "help, help" theycried to
me in that special voice that only a boatie can hear. Aquick chat
with the tippie and off we go home with our 'new' boat. free, my
favourite price. Since my shed is overstocked with old sails and
masts it shouldnt take long to build something. Weve an idea for a
narrow cat 5' wide, (fits in my mates roof rack) with a
shortmast ,15' this will fit hislandyacht sail add an old jib, new
rudders, and a solid trampoline to take a rowing seat. Add rowlocks
oars and an outboard mount.Then he'll be able to come sailing with me
and the kids but not be in the way. I get the feeling that a fleet is
growing around me just like when I started building landyachts.
The last 3 months photos have been snt off for printing so piccies
soon , still no rain.
Built my first mast a couple of days ago . 15'6" of smooth ,round
laminated oregon. A beautiful thing to behold. Incredibly easy from
start to finish. still no rain
cheers for now , Paul day , kalgoorlie