Re: WB SNAME Article
In letters in WoodenBoat Andy Davis hjas given the address for a web
page on the Leavitt sinking but I think that the URL is bad. Has
anyone else tried?
Regards
Andy Farquhar
page on the Leavitt sinking but I think that the URL is bad. Has
anyone else tried?
Regards
Andy Farquhar
On Fri, 4 May 2001KF4call@...wrote:
Actually, credentials of any paper sort should be considered suspect.
Drafting Dorade, or HMS Rose, or Ticonderoga, now those are credentials!
> It is good to be skeptical of a credential conferred by a governmentalYeah, my Ph.D. from the University is quite suspect!
> entity.
Actually, credentials of any paper sort should be considered suspect.
Drafting Dorade, or HMS Rose, or Ticonderoga, now those are credentials!
Don,
Right on and bingo!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan........
Right on and bingo!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan........
--- In bolger@y..., StepHydro@a... wrote:
>
> The answer to this one is easy. That guy would act as a "gatekeeper"
to make
> sure that Bolger was unsuccessful. The jealousy of the elect has no
bounds.
>
> Carron
> realist today
In a message dated 05/04/2001 10:<BR34:<BR46 PM
Eastern Daylight,wmrpage@...writes:
sure that Bolger was unsuccessful. The jealousy of the elect has no bounds.
Carron
realist today
Eastern Daylight,wmrpage@...writes:
> - suppose someThe answer to this one is easy. That guy would act as a "gatekeeper" to make
> dot.com zillionaire wanted a radical boat design and elected to commission
> Bolger (who better?) to come up with something, but also wanted the vessel
> classified for regulatory, insurance or re-sale purposes - what would stop
> such a patron from retaining a certified "PE" to check and certify the
> design for the appropriate bodies?
sure that Bolger was unsuccessful. The jealousy of the elect has no bounds.
Carron
realist today
I realize that this horse that I am beating
has probably expired but...
In my involvement in the construction industry for
more that 40 years, at least in my home state of New Mexico,
licensing
has no bearing on skills or ability. construction
codes are arbritrary and depend on state/local boards whims. Or even
the
individual inspectors personal rules.
Licenses can literally be bought by attending one day or one half day "cram"
schools
that will guarantee a license. My entire working
life has been spent in the wholesale plumbing, heating, and air
conditioning
business. To make my point consider
this. In conversation with a customer, who was about to take a test for
his general
construction license I opinioned that the test was
probably not too difficult. He disagreed. as in "thems fighting
words!"
The end result was a bet that I could pass the test
cold. I went to Santa Fe with him and we both tested for the GB98
license. That would allow us to build
anything except bridges. ( no I don't know why not bridges) Passing
grade
was 70 and I scored a 92. I'm not bragging,
it ain't rocket science. Point is, I could then have built homes, offices,
whatever,
except bridges. I had a lot of trouble with
my first boat, a flat bottom skiff, and can't imagine tackling a high rise
apartment.
James Fuller
----- Original Message -----From:wmrpage@...Sent:Friday, May 04, 2001 7:32 PMSubject:Re: [bolger] WB SNAME ArticleIn a message dated 5/4/01 12:01:14 PM Central Daylight Time,
pongo19050@...writes:I have to agree with Mr. Bolger on this one. State-imposed
professional licensing seems to do more harm than good in most
areas. In my profession, the law, it's totally meaningless and is
more of a weapon used by the bar to limit competition than any
assurance of competence.
I found Tom Jackson's article in WoodenBoat on the SNAME licensing
project to be less than enlightening. It seemed to me to be dutiful piece of
"objective" journalism which quotes and paraphrases the opinions of parties
on both sides of the issue without casting any illumination on the
consequences of the proposal's adoption.
If state adoption of the "PE" certification would mean that no one
could build a boat for sale not designed by someone so certified, the article
certainly did not make that clear (at least not to me - I know I'm slow). If
the effect is only to allow certified practitioners to advertise their
professional qualifications, and give them a competitive advantage over
non-certified practitioners in competing for design work requiring USCG,
Lloyds or ABS classifications, I'm not sure I see anything to complain about.
My impression from Jackson's article is the the USCG, in the interests
of budgetary economy (somewhat analogous to the FDA's letting drug companies
pay for their own drug trials), has decided to off-load a proportion of its
regulatory burden on to certain certified practitioners. This may or may not
be a very good idea, but it does not necessarily follow that Phil Bolger
could not continue to market plans, or that people could not continue to
build and license boats built to those plans, even for re-sale to others, or
that they would face any greater legal liability for those activities than
they do presently despite his lack of the proposed "PE" licensing in the
builders' states.
It is not clear from the article whether this "off-loading" is
mandatory, or if practitioners can continue to do things as before - i.e.
submit to whatever inspection, manufacturing, etc. requirements that the USCG
(or Lloyds, or ABS, or whomever) might require in the absence of the
alternative validation process (i.e. that a suitably certified "PE" signed
off on the work that the USCG (or Lloyds, or ABS, or whomever would otherwise
perform under the "old regime") If the latter, then builders of vessels
requiring or desiring one or more of these classifications will probably find
it more cost-effective or less time-consuming (essentially the same thing on
a commercial project) to use the alternative validation process (i.e. having
a SNAME certified "PE" sign off on the work), but this would be a commercial
competitive advantage, not a bar to "non-PE" certified practitioners doing
the work. Indeed, one can imagine collaboration on this - suppose some
dot.com zillionaire wanted a radical boat design and elected to commission
Bolger (who better?) to come up with something, but also wanted the vessel
classified for regulatory, insurance or re-sale purposes - what would stop
such a patron from retaining a certified "PE" to check and certify the design
for the appropriate bodies?
I do take exception to your assertion that that state professional
licensing, in general, does more harm than good. Mandatory standards of
(putative) competence regarding plumbing, wiring, pipe-fitting, boiler
testing, boiler operation, steam-fitting and a host of other occupations do
substantially contribute to public safety (and economic efficiency). While it
is certainly true that some or all of these occupational classes are perhaps
more intent on using the licensing process to limit competition than to
promote public good, they are obliged to cast their perogatives as in the
public interest and, to some extent, find themselves obliged to so perform.
As far as school teachers are concerned, I have no knowledge regarding
the utility or otherwise of the accrediting requirements. I do think that
standards should be more, rather than less, stringent and the level of pay
and other perogatives increased to a level necessary to attract really gifted
persons to that occupation. I doubt that letting anyone who thinks they can
teach do so would necessarily give results consonant with their own high
opionons of their un-tested abilities. (Someone on this group cited a study
which purported to show that the less someone knows about a subject, the more
certain they are that they "know" it all.)
As to the law, a profession with which I have more familiarity, I
agree that accrediation is no measure of competence, but the notion that the
process keeps capable people out of the profession by limiting access is
doubtful.
Anyway, it is not clear to me why SNAME's proposal for a naval
architecture "PE" certification is a threat to Bolger, Bolgeristas,
Bolger-wannabees or would be Bolger-builders like myself. If you can persuade
me that it is, I will certainly do whatever I can to frustrate any such
nefarious proposal.
Bill in MN
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
- no flogging dead horses
- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
- stay on topic and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to theYahoo! Terms of Service.
Some states have what is referred to as a "title law" to regulate
practice of some professions. These laws regulate what practitioners can
call themselves, but not what they can do. Such a law would not keep anyone
out of boat design, but would provide an additional credential to those
consumers who thought such a credential might be meaningful. The use of a
particular title (PE or whatever) could be used to indicate that one has
taken and passed a particular test, or other wise jumped through some hoop.
Riddle: Q. what do they call the person who graduates last in his or
her medical school class? A. Doctor.
It is good to be skeptical of a credential conferred by a governmental
entity. This is because most credentials or titles that I am aware of are
not evaluated to determine their validity, that is, to find out if they
actually measure competence to practice or if they just measure "book
learning". In other words, the tests have not been tested to see if they
measure what they purport to measure.
Regards,
Warren
In a message dated 5/4/2001 10:34:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
wmrpage@...writes:
<<
project to be less than enlightening. It seemed to me to be dutiful piece of
"objective" journalism which quotes and paraphrases the opinions of parties
on both sides of the issue without casting any illumination on the
consequences of the proposal's adoption.
practice of some professions. These laws regulate what practitioners can
call themselves, but not what they can do. Such a law would not keep anyone
out of boat design, but would provide an additional credential to those
consumers who thought such a credential might be meaningful. The use of a
particular title (PE or whatever) could be used to indicate that one has
taken and passed a particular test, or other wise jumped through some hoop.
Riddle: Q. what do they call the person who graduates last in his or
her medical school class? A. Doctor.
It is good to be skeptical of a credential conferred by a governmental
entity. This is because most credentials or titles that I am aware of are
not evaluated to determine their validity, that is, to find out if they
actually measure competence to practice or if they just measure "book
learning". In other words, the tests have not been tested to see if they
measure what they purport to measure.
Regards,
Warren
In a message dated 5/4/2001 10:34:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
wmrpage@...writes:
<<
> I have to agree with Mr. Bolger on this one. State-imposedI found Tom Jackson's article in WoodenBoat on the SNAME licensing
> professional licensing seems to do more harm than good in most
> areas. In my profession, the law, it's totally meaningless and is
> more of a weapon used by the bar to limit competition than any
>
>>snip<<
project to be less than enlightening. It seemed to me to be dutiful piece of
"objective" journalism which quotes and paraphrases the opinions of parties
on both sides of the issue without casting any illumination on the
consequences of the proposal's adoption.
>>
In a message dated 5/4/01 12:01:14 PM Central Daylight Time,
pongo19050@... writes:
pongo19050@... writes:
I have to agree with Mr. Bolger on this one. State-imposed
professional licensing seems to do more harm than good in most
areas. In my profession, the law, it's totally meaningless and is
more of a weapon used by the bar to limit competition than any
assurance of competence.
I found Tom Jackson's article in WoodenBoat on the SNAME licensing
project to be less than enlightening. It seemed to me to be dutiful piece of
"objective" journalism which quotes and paraphrases the opinions of parties
on both sides of the issue without casting any illumination on the
consequences of the proposal's adoption.
If state adoption of the "PE" certification would mean that no one
could build a boat for sale not designed by someone so certified, the article
certainly did not make that clear (at least not to me - I know I'm slow). If
the effect is only to allow certified practitioners to advertise their
professional qualifications, and give them a competitive advantage over
non-certified practitioners in competing for design work requiring USCG,
Lloyds or ABS classifications, I'm not sure I see anything to complain about.
My impression from Jackson's article is the the USCG, in the interests
of budgetary economy (somewhat analogous to the FDA's letting drug companies
pay for their own drug trials), has decided to off-load a proportion of its
regulatory burden on to certain certified practitioners. This may or may not
be a very good idea, but it does not necessarily follow that Phil Bolger
could not continue to market plans, or that people could not continue to
build and license boats built to those plans, even for re-sale to others, or
that they would face any greater legal liability for those activities than
they do presently despite his lack of the proposed "PE" licensing in the
builders' states.
It is not clear from the article whether this "off-loading" is
mandatory, or if practitioners can continue to do things as before - i.e.
submit to whatever inspection, manufacturing, etc. requirements that the USCG
(or Lloyds, or ABS, or whomever) might require in the absence of the
alternative validation process (i.e. that a suitably certified "PE" signed
off on the work that the USCG (or Lloyds, or ABS, or whomever would otherwise
perform under the "old regime") If the latter, then builders of vessels
requiring or desiring one or more of these classifications will probably find
it more cost-effective or less time-consuming (essentially the same thing on
a commercial project) to use the alternative validation process (i.e. having
a SNAME certified "PE" sign off on the work), but this would be a commercial
competitive advantage, not a bar to "non-PE" certified practitioners doing
the work. Indeed, one can imagine collaboration on this - suppose some
dot.com zillionaire wanted a radical boat design and elected to commission
Bolger (who better?) to come up with something, but also wanted the vessel
classified for regulatory, insurance or re-sale purposes - what would stop
such a patron from retaining a certified "PE" to check and certify the design
for the appropriate bodies?
I do take exception to your assertion that that state professional
licensing, in general, does more harm than good. Mandatory standards of
(putative) competence regarding plumbing, wiring, pipe-fitting, boiler
testing, boiler operation, steam-fitting and a host of other occupations do
substantially contribute to public safety (and economic efficiency). While it
is certainly true that some or all of these occupational classes are perhaps
more intent on using the licensing process to limit competition than to
promote public good, they are obliged to cast their perogatives as in the
public interest and, to some extent, find themselves obliged to so perform.
As far as school teachers are concerned, I have no knowledge regarding
the utility or otherwise of the accrediting requirements. I do think that
standards should be more, rather than less, stringent and the level of pay
and other perogatives increased to a level necessary to attract really gifted
persons to that occupation. I doubt that letting anyone who thinks they can
teach do so would necessarily give results consonant with their own high
opionons of their un-tested abilities. (Someone on this group cited a study
which purported to show that the less someone knows about a subject, the more
certain they are that they "know" it all.)
As to the law, a profession with which I have more familiarity, I
agree that accrediation is no measure of competence, but the notion that the
process keeps capable people out of the profession by limiting access is
doubtful.
Anyway, it is not clear to me why SNAME's proposal for a naval
architecture "PE" certification is a threat to Bolger, Bolgeristas,
Bolger-wannabees or would be Bolger-builders like myself. If you can persuade
me that it is, I will certainly do whatever I can to frustrate any such
nefarious proposal.
Bill in MN
As you are aware, licensing (registration) is meant to provide for
protection of the "public health and safety" and some say welfare.
Also licensing exams are supposed to test to insure MIMINUM
competency. My own feeling is that states like licensing because it
restricts out of staters from practising though many have reciprocity
arrangements. Professionals for all the cant about protection of the
public are most interested in preventing others from practicing their
trade. My impression of the comments in the article is that it is the
big boat guys versus the little boat guys and the little boat guys
are going to lose because they are not organized. Of course the
unintended consequence is that great designers like Bolger, Paine,
Newick etc will be frozen out. As to the law I for one am glad for
the bar exams. If law were unregulated we would have 380,000,000
lawyers ready to take us to court rather than1,000,000 or whatever
the number is now.
Bob Chamberland
protection of the "public health and safety" and some say welfare.
Also licensing exams are supposed to test to insure MIMINUM
competency. My own feeling is that states like licensing because it
restricts out of staters from practising though many have reciprocity
arrangements. Professionals for all the cant about protection of the
public are most interested in preventing others from practicing their
trade. My impression of the comments in the article is that it is the
big boat guys versus the little boat guys and the little boat guys
are going to lose because they are not organized. Of course the
unintended consequence is that great designers like Bolger, Paine,
Newick etc will be frozen out. As to the law I for one am glad for
the bar exams. If law were unregulated we would have 380,000,000
lawyers ready to take us to court rather than1,000,000 or whatever
the number is now.
Bob Chamberland
--- In bolger@y..., pongo19050@y... wrote:
> The latest WB has an article concerning legislation which is being
> pushed in the states' legislatures on testing and professional
> licensing of naval architects and marine engineers. The
legislation
The latest WB has an article concerning legislation which is being
pushed in the states' legislatures on testing and professional
licensing of naval architects and marine engineers. The legislation
is championed by the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers
(SNAME)and opposed vehemently by Mr. Bolger and less vehemently by
others.
I have to agree with Mr. Bolger on this one. State-imposed
professional licensing seems to do more harm than good in most
areas. In my profession, the law, it's totally meaningless and is
more of a weapon used by the bar to limit competition than any
assurance of competence. Attorney wannabes are subjected to an
increasingly irrelevant rites of passage in order to actually
practice law. It starts with the LSAT, a standardized test that has
nothing to do with law or much else that I can see. Law school
itself is largely irrelevant; I learned mostly about long-dead
principles of English common law. The bar exam is comprised of
a "multistate" exam in which potential lawyers are tested on
multistate law, which is a fictional amalgamation of archaic common
law and a sort of lowest common denominator state law. I worked full-
time with lawyers while attending law school and learned a lot more
at work than at school.
The teaching certification process also seems wrongheaded.
Certification has given us our wonderful public school system. I
imagine Socrates, Plato and Aristotle walking into my local school
board administrative offices to apply for a teaching job and being
turned away because they hadn't earned any credits in the Psychology
of education(although their penchant for young boys may have landed
them in hot water today). And think of the teachers we all had that
were certified in spite of being totally incompetent. I don't want
to denigrate the good teachers out there - and there are a lot of
them - it's to their credit that they waded through the bureaucratic
**** to become teachers.
On the other hand, I want my surgeon or cardiologist to be licensed
and board certified and insured out the wazoo.
Enough rant. Did anyone else read the article? Is this another
indication of Mr. Bolger's liberterian leanings? Will this
legislation have any effect on the builders of small boats?
Regards
Andy Farquhar
pushed in the states' legislatures on testing and professional
licensing of naval architects and marine engineers. The legislation
is championed by the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers
(SNAME)and opposed vehemently by Mr. Bolger and less vehemently by
others.
I have to agree with Mr. Bolger on this one. State-imposed
professional licensing seems to do more harm than good in most
areas. In my profession, the law, it's totally meaningless and is
more of a weapon used by the bar to limit competition than any
assurance of competence. Attorney wannabes are subjected to an
increasingly irrelevant rites of passage in order to actually
practice law. It starts with the LSAT, a standardized test that has
nothing to do with law or much else that I can see. Law school
itself is largely irrelevant; I learned mostly about long-dead
principles of English common law. The bar exam is comprised of
a "multistate" exam in which potential lawyers are tested on
multistate law, which is a fictional amalgamation of archaic common
law and a sort of lowest common denominator state law. I worked full-
time with lawyers while attending law school and learned a lot more
at work than at school.
The teaching certification process also seems wrongheaded.
Certification has given us our wonderful public school system. I
imagine Socrates, Plato and Aristotle walking into my local school
board administrative offices to apply for a teaching job and being
turned away because they hadn't earned any credits in the Psychology
of education(although their penchant for young boys may have landed
them in hot water today). And think of the teachers we all had that
were certified in spite of being totally incompetent. I don't want
to denigrate the good teachers out there - and there are a lot of
them - it's to their credit that they waded through the bureaucratic
**** to become teachers.
On the other hand, I want my surgeon or cardiologist to be licensed
and board certified and insured out the wazoo.
Enough rant. Did anyone else read the article? Is this another
indication of Mr. Bolger's liberterian leanings? Will this
legislation have any effect on the builders of small boats?
Regards
Andy Farquhar