Re: Sailing Pirogue
..... but when folks have asked about building pirogues as sailing
craft, aren't we giving
Check out:
http://www.common-sense-boats.com/boats/Canoes_&_kayaks/pirogue.htm
Your confusion is coming from the fact that Bolger has three
different "pirogues". The one at the above URL is the largest and was
designed from the outset as being able to be sailed. It's more of a
cross between a sharpie and a sneak-box than the traditional type of
pirogue.
I do agree with you that the traditional pirogue probably isn't
the greatest choice of a sailboat. They're designed as paddled swamp-
boats. Bolger has often said that he's frustrated by those who want
to add sails to a rowing design like his Gloucester Gull.
Bruce
craft, aren't we giving
> them a bum steer?them as a good compromise between
> (Disclaimer department: I don't own a pirogue, but have considered
> the 60 hour (no typo) canoe and the sleek kayak that I do own.)Jim,
Check out:
http://www.common-sense-boats.com/boats/Canoes_&_kayaks/pirogue.htm
Your confusion is coming from the fact that Bolger has three
different "pirogues". The one at the above URL is the largest and was
designed from the outset as being able to be sailed. It's more of a
cross between a sharpie and a sneak-box than the traditional type of
pirogue.
I do agree with you that the traditional pirogue probably isn't
the greatest choice of a sailboat. They're designed as paddled swamp-
boats. Bolger has often said that he's frustrated by those who want
to add sails to a rowing design like his Gloucester Gull.
Bruce
I saw John Harris's sailing Bolger pirogue at the Chesapeake Light
Craft event this past weekend. Craig O'Donnel sails it all of the
time. He has two gaff (I think) sails of between 30 and 40 sq feet.
John's pirogue has flotation chambers in the stern and bow. It has a
leeboard and a kick up rudder. I was suprised at the amount of
rocker - Craig says it turns on a dime. It's very light and I'm sure
that Craig gunkholes around the Chesapeake in it.
As for a pirogue or canoe's sailing ability, they are more tender
than other boats - like the prams suggested. But, with an
appropriately sized sail and the proper helm balance it's pretty hard
to get in serious trouble in moderate conditions. Besides, capsizing
in warm water can be a good thing - as in Arthur Ransome's
advice "Better drowned than duffers. If not duffers won't drown."
John McPhee has written a wonderful essay "Swimming with Canoes"
where he relates a story of lessons learned in calm water and put to
use in rougher conditions, albeit not in a sailing context. I think
that it's probably good for children and other beginners to learn to
sail in a narrow little boat because it's fun and, if they do go
over,it will be a learning experience. They will certainly get more
use out of a cartopped little boat than they would out of a "safer"
but trailered design.
I personally have learned several lessons from getting wet in a
sailing canoe. I knew before ever trying to sail a canoe not to
cleat the sheet and to reef early and often. It took a good dunking
to drive these points home (I still cleat the sheet occasionally and
don't reef when I should - but I do so in warm water and at least
know the consequences first hand.)
Our litigious society seems too concerned with avoiding all potential
dangers these days. Sailing is not a completely safe activity. If
you do something stupid, you could easily die. Advocating a certain
type of boat as safe for a novice seems to me to be a bad thing.
Better to recommend a fun little boat, tell the novice that sailing
has inherent risks and set him or her free in warm water in a pfd to
learn.
I'm suprised (but relieved) that they haven't removed Mr. Ransome's
books from the shelves, as he advocates kids sailing in such
inherently dangerous small craft. Especially that Swallow with its
considerable ballast and lack of flotation. If he were writing
children's books today, the lawyers would have vetted his books down
to nothing to avoid liability. Today, the lawyers would have the
father e-mail back to his children "Better not to go sailing at all
than to be exposed to even the slightest risk. Play vidoe games."
Okay, I'm getting down off the soapbox now.
Regards
Andy Farquhar
Craft event this past weekend. Craig O'Donnel sails it all of the
time. He has two gaff (I think) sails of between 30 and 40 sq feet.
John's pirogue has flotation chambers in the stern and bow. It has a
leeboard and a kick up rudder. I was suprised at the amount of
rocker - Craig says it turns on a dime. It's very light and I'm sure
that Craig gunkholes around the Chesapeake in it.
As for a pirogue or canoe's sailing ability, they are more tender
than other boats - like the prams suggested. But, with an
appropriately sized sail and the proper helm balance it's pretty hard
to get in serious trouble in moderate conditions. Besides, capsizing
in warm water can be a good thing - as in Arthur Ransome's
advice "Better drowned than duffers. If not duffers won't drown."
John McPhee has written a wonderful essay "Swimming with Canoes"
where he relates a story of lessons learned in calm water and put to
use in rougher conditions, albeit not in a sailing context. I think
that it's probably good for children and other beginners to learn to
sail in a narrow little boat because it's fun and, if they do go
over,it will be a learning experience. They will certainly get more
use out of a cartopped little boat than they would out of a "safer"
but trailered design.
I personally have learned several lessons from getting wet in a
sailing canoe. I knew before ever trying to sail a canoe not to
cleat the sheet and to reef early and often. It took a good dunking
to drive these points home (I still cleat the sheet occasionally and
don't reef when I should - but I do so in warm water and at least
know the consequences first hand.)
Our litigious society seems too concerned with avoiding all potential
dangers these days. Sailing is not a completely safe activity. If
you do something stupid, you could easily die. Advocating a certain
type of boat as safe for a novice seems to me to be a bad thing.
Better to recommend a fun little boat, tell the novice that sailing
has inherent risks and set him or her free in warm water in a pfd to
learn.
I'm suprised (but relieved) that they haven't removed Mr. Ransome's
books from the shelves, as he advocates kids sailing in such
inherently dangerous small craft. Especially that Swallow with its
considerable ballast and lack of flotation. If he were writing
children's books today, the lawyers would have vetted his books down
to nothing to avoid liability. Today, the lawyers would have the
father e-mail back to his children "Better not to go sailing at all
than to be exposed to even the slightest risk. Play vidoe games."
Okay, I'm getting down off the soapbox now.
Regards
Andy Farquhar
Before I hear the hiss of flamethrowers warming in cyberspace, let me be very clear about this: I
personally think that the boat you 1) use and 2) have fun with is the best boat for you. I'll admit
that when I saw the netsite where someone put a sail on a bass jonboat, I agreed that that looked
like fun..... but when folks have asked about building pirogues as sailing craft, aren't we giving
them a bum steer?
(Disclaimer department: I don't own a pirogue, but have considered them as a good compromise between
the 60 hour (no typo) canoe and the sleek kayak that I do own.) As a sailing craft, isn't a pirogue
a poor choice? I know it is fun to add a sail to the boat you already have, but isn't this likely to
get a first time sailor in quick, wet, trouble? Wouldn't a boat like a piccup pram (or variation) -
even an 8 foot pram be a lot more fun to sail? I picture the poor pirogue owner going home with an S
shaped back because there is no way to shift you weight comfortably to alter the ballast. Am I off
base here?
Again, I can sure understand adding a sail to the boat you own, but doesn't it say it all that many
pirogue pilots add pontoons when they add a sail - and a row/sail design could be found that is a
little more sailor friendly?
Just a question of friendly inquiry, fellas. Whadda ya think?
Jim
(pleasantly contemplating my pre-barbecued list status)
personally think that the boat you 1) use and 2) have fun with is the best boat for you. I'll admit
that when I saw the netsite where someone put a sail on a bass jonboat, I agreed that that looked
like fun..... but when folks have asked about building pirogues as sailing craft, aren't we giving
them a bum steer?
(Disclaimer department: I don't own a pirogue, but have considered them as a good compromise between
the 60 hour (no typo) canoe and the sleek kayak that I do own.) As a sailing craft, isn't a pirogue
a poor choice? I know it is fun to add a sail to the boat you already have, but isn't this likely to
get a first time sailor in quick, wet, trouble? Wouldn't a boat like a piccup pram (or variation) -
even an 8 foot pram be a lot more fun to sail? I picture the poor pirogue owner going home with an S
shaped back because there is no way to shift you weight comfortably to alter the ballast. Am I off
base here?
Again, I can sure understand adding a sail to the boat you own, but doesn't it say it all that many
pirogue pilots add pontoons when they add a sail - and a row/sail design could be found that is a
little more sailor friendly?
Just a question of friendly inquiry, fellas. Whadda ya think?
Jim
(pleasantly contemplating my pre-barbecued list status)