Re: [bolger] Self-rescuing a Windsprint
The power-to-weight ratio versus a Gypsy is very much in the Windsprint's favor. Twice the sail area for the same hull weight makes all the difference! Especially in lighter winds. As it gets windier, a well sailed Windsprint will probably still beat a Gypsy boat for boat, but there is a pretty good chance the WS will wipe out spectacularly thus gifting Gypsy the win.
-----Original Message-----
-----Original Message-----
>From: Harry James <welshman@...>
>Sent: Sep 4, 2006 11:06 PM
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [bolger] Self-rescuing a Windsprint
>
>I believe there is a member of this group from the Bay of Fundy who has
>reported on this. He said two things that I remember, first Windsprints
>are fast, second they can take a Gypsy which surprised me.
>
>HJ
>
>
Hey Joe, thanks for that link. Sure looks like a fun festival. I
think I visited this site some time ago, and will enjoy reading
through it again. Just a few points of interest soon turned up:
Windsprint line up:
http://www.woodenboatfestival.org/photos_2004/?d=24
http://www.woodenboatfestival.org/photos_2004/
Windsprints and Light Schooners raced just on a month ago this year.
(Perhaps there'll be photos later?):
http://www.woodenboatfestival.org/festival/schedule.shtml
Windsprint 2005 race (pics missing?):
http://www.swbans.org/newsletter/sept2005.htm
a "Windsprint Odessy":
http://www.swbans.org/newsletter/nov2002.htm
See Windsprint trimaran article " The Amazing Magic Carpet"-
"sailing qualities... are the most flawless of any small boat I
have sailed aboard". Sounds good:
http://www.swbans.org/newsletter/dec2003.htm
PCB approved mods on the above (pics or sketches anyone, please) -
"Tri Sprint" article :
http://www.swbans.org/newsletter/jul2003.htm
Cheers
Graeme
think I visited this site some time ago, and will enjoy reading
through it again. Just a few points of interest soon turned up:
Windsprint line up:
http://www.woodenboatfestival.org/photos_2004/?d=24
http://www.woodenboatfestival.org/photos_2004/
Windsprints and Light Schooners raced just on a month ago this year.
(Perhaps there'll be photos later?):
http://www.woodenboatfestival.org/festival/schedule.shtml
Windsprint 2005 race (pics missing?):
http://www.swbans.org/newsletter/sept2005.htm
a "Windsprint Odessy":
http://www.swbans.org/newsletter/nov2002.htm
See Windsprint trimaran article " The Amazing Magic Carpet"-
"sailing qualities... are the most flawless of any small boat I
have sailed aboard". Sounds good:
http://www.swbans.org/newsletter/dec2003.htm
PCB approved mods on the above (pics or sketches anyone, please) -
"Tri Sprint" article :
http://www.swbans.org/newsletter/jul2003.htm
Cheers
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
>
> Probably SWBANS, Small Wooden Boat Association of Nova Scotia. I
know
> they have quite a few Windsprints. It was more like a messabout
than a
> regatta, but they are like the Brits, and tend to be more organized
> than us Yanks. You will likely find Windsprints if you explore
their
> site:http://www.swbans.org/hometxt.htm
I believe there is a member of this group from the Bay of Fundy who has
reported on this. He said two things that I remember, first Windsprints
are fast, second they can take a Gypsy which surprised me.
HJ
Joe Tribulato wrote:
reported on this. He said two things that I remember, first Windsprints
are fast, second they can take a Gypsy which surprised me.
HJ
Joe Tribulato wrote:
> Probably SWBANS, Small Wooden Boat Association of Nova Scotia. I know
> they have quite a few Windsprints. It was more like a messabout than a
> regatta, but they are like the Brits, and tend to be more organized
> than us Yanks. You will likely find Windsprints if you explore their
> site:http://www.swbans.org/hometxt.htm
>
> Joe T
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...> wrote:
>
>> ...
>> BTW, a few years ago I read about a regatta in one of Canada's
>> Maritime Provinces that was attended by a half-dozen or more
>> Windsprints. Does anyone know anything about that -- is it an annual
>> occurrence? Is there a web site or anything?
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Probably SWBANS, Small Wooden Boat Association of Nova Scotia. I know
they have quite a few Windsprints. It was more like a messabout than a
regatta, but they are like the Brits, and tend to be more organized
than us Yanks. You will likely find Windsprints if you explore their
site:http://www.swbans.org/hometxt.htm
Joe T
they have quite a few Windsprints. It was more like a messabout than a
regatta, but they are like the Brits, and tend to be more organized
than us Yanks. You will likely find Windsprints if you explore their
site:http://www.swbans.org/hometxt.htm
Joe T
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...> wrote:
> ...
> BTW, a few years ago I read about a regatta in one of Canada's
> Maritime Provinces that was attended by a half-dozen or more
> Windsprints. Does anyone know anything about that -- is it an annual
> occurrence? Is there a web site or anything?
>
> Patrick
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
wrote:
inspection ports seal well enough? They stop a big amount of water
flooding a chamber quickly, but usually leak slowly. To prevent
blowing tank seams some also have a tiny hole to let the air
pressure at different temperatures equalize. I guess plenty of
sealant will help.
IIRC. I recall that it was an annual event, and that Windsprints
were described as "ubiquitous" ;^) Local business or government in
the port concerned might have more general photos on their websites
of an annual event that include snaps of Windsprints?
Cheers
Graeme
wrote:
>I think maybe I'll start with the smaller holes and ordinary boatYou're probably best to proceed this way. Do you think that
>plugs in the ends of the daggerboard well and move on to the
>inspection port if the holes are too slow.
inspection ports seal well enough? They stop a big amount of water
flooding a chamber quickly, but usually leak slowly. To prevent
blowing tank seams some also have a tiny hole to let the air
pressure at different temperatures equalize. I guess plenty of
sealant will help.
> BTW, a few years ago I read about a regatta in one of Canada'sPatrick, I've seen that too. It is on someone's personal webpage
>Maritime Provinces that was attended by a half-dozen or more
>Windsprints. Does anyone know anything about that -- is it an
>annual occurrence? Is there a web site or anything?
IIRC. I recall that it was an annual event, and that Windsprints
were described as "ubiquitous" ;^) Local business or government in
the port concerned might have more general photos on their websites
of an annual event that include snaps of Windsprints?
Cheers
Graeme
I saw a reference last night (which I forgot to book mark) where the
author built a windsprint and was getting discouraged by swamping it
to often. He attached 2 pair of screweyes athwartships to which he
could lash a pair of 2x4's (one right behind the mast and the other
roughly where the aft mold would be during construction). at the ends
of the 2x4's, in the same manner, he attached a set of essentially
small sharpies (12 ft long by about 6 inches midships) making what for
all practical purposes is a trimeran. He said is is now incredible
stable. So much so that he can stand up while fishing from it.
Personally I prefer the drainage port idea and keeping the original
windsprint lines uncorrupted. The trimeran idea is an interesting
option though in heavy weather, or, say for example I someday want to
bring my 70 year old mother out for a day of sailing and definitely
don't want to take any chances of swamping. Especially where it can
be put on or taken off demending on the wind conditions of the day
with just a few knots.
Steven
author built a windsprint and was getting discouraged by swamping it
to often. He attached 2 pair of screweyes athwartships to which he
could lash a pair of 2x4's (one right behind the mast and the other
roughly where the aft mold would be during construction). at the ends
of the 2x4's, in the same manner, he attached a set of essentially
small sharpies (12 ft long by about 6 inches midships) making what for
all practical purposes is a trimeran. He said is is now incredible
stable. So much so that he can stand up while fishing from it.
Personally I prefer the drainage port idea and keeping the original
windsprint lines uncorrupted. The trimeran idea is an interesting
option though in heavy weather, or, say for example I someday want to
bring my 70 year old mother out for a day of sailing and definitely
don't want to take any chances of swamping. Especially where it can
be put on or taken off demending on the wind conditions of the day
with just a few knots.
Steven
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...> wrote:
>
> We swamped my Windsprint on Saturday in very calm water and tried a
> canoe-style rescue. Turns out, I have plenty of flotation -- my 250
> pounds simply aren't enough to press either bow or stern down deep
> enough into the water to get the popping-out action that is needed.
So I
> guess its time to try drilling some holes. The big question is whether
> to go with a couple small holes and slow draining, or a 4" inspection
> port (like kayaks use) in the side of the daggerboard well. My
> hesitation on the latter is due to my general experience that those
> things are difficult to open and close. Problem with the former is that
> if there is any chop the boat will probably re-fill from the waves
> faster than it drains through the holes. I think maybe I'll start with
> the smaller holes and ordinary boat plugs in the ends of the
daggerboard
> well and move on to the inspection port if the holes are too slow.
>
> The clam shells are intriguing. In a boat as small as the Windsprint,
> there would be a need to protect the corks from feet while tacking.
> Actually, this is a concern with the plugs in the daggerboard well,
too.
> I often sail barefoot, and I'd hate to cut my toes on the release
> mechanism for a standard boat plug. Maybe a cork really is a better
idea.
>
> BTW, a few years ago I read about a regatta in one of Canada's Maritime
> Provinces that was attended by a half-dozen or more Windsprints. Does
> anyone know anything about that -- is it an annual occurrence? Is there
> a web site or anything?
>
> Patrick
We swamped my Windsprint on Saturday in very calm water and tried a
canoe-style rescue. Turns out, I have plenty of flotation -- my 250
pounds simply aren't enough to press either bow or stern down deep
enough into the water to get the popping-out action that is needed. So I
guess its time to try drilling some holes. The big question is whether
to go with a couple small holes and slow draining, or a 4" inspection
port (like kayaks use) in the side of the daggerboard well. My
hesitation on the latter is due to my general experience that those
things are difficult to open and close. Problem with the former is that
if there is any chop the boat will probably re-fill from the waves
faster than it drains through the holes. I think maybe I'll start with
the smaller holes and ordinary boat plugs in the ends of the daggerboard
well and move on to the inspection port if the holes are too slow.
The clam shells are intriguing. In a boat as small as the Windsprint,
there would be a need to protect the corks from feet while tacking.
Actually, this is a concern with the plugs in the daggerboard well, too.
I often sail barefoot, and I'd hate to cut my toes on the release
mechanism for a standard boat plug. Maybe a cork really is a better idea.
BTW, a few years ago I read about a regatta in one of Canada's Maritime
Provinces that was attended by a half-dozen or more Windsprints. Does
anyone know anything about that -- is it an annual occurrence? Is there
a web site or anything?
Patrick
graeme19121984 wrote:
canoe-style rescue. Turns out, I have plenty of flotation -- my 250
pounds simply aren't enough to press either bow or stern down deep
enough into the water to get the popping-out action that is needed. So I
guess its time to try drilling some holes. The big question is whether
to go with a couple small holes and slow draining, or a 4" inspection
port (like kayaks use) in the side of the daggerboard well. My
hesitation on the latter is due to my general experience that those
things are difficult to open and close. Problem with the former is that
if there is any chop the boat will probably re-fill from the waves
faster than it drains through the holes. I think maybe I'll start with
the smaller holes and ordinary boat plugs in the ends of the daggerboard
well and move on to the inspection port if the holes are too slow.
The clam shells are intriguing. In a boat as small as the Windsprint,
there would be a need to protect the corks from feet while tacking.
Actually, this is a concern with the plugs in the daggerboard well, too.
I often sail barefoot, and I'd hate to cut my toes on the release
mechanism for a standard boat plug. Maybe a cork really is a better idea.
BTW, a few years ago I read about a regatta in one of Canada's Maritime
Provinces that was attended by a half-dozen or more Windsprints. Does
anyone know anything about that -- is it an annual occurrence? Is there
a web site or anything?
Patrick
graeme19121984 wrote:
> Flap type scuppers will let a lot of water out quick, but are
> difficult to seal so that you can sit on the comfort of a dry
> bottom. A bit of water seems always to find its way inside. Apart
> from proprietry ones, I've seen plywood ones using rubber gaskets
> or "O" rings, pulled in tight by shock cord run from inside and
> clipped to a saddle on the flap to hold it shut. Old X-ray film
> sheets, or other plastic sheet, cut to shape and hinged at the top
> edge by tape, though flexible, is stiff enough to allow water out
> and then spring back over the hole to block any wash coming in.
> Close them shut for cruising by taping around the other sides. They
> always seem to leak a bit, which is not a problem to a racer, but I
> think it could be very irritating when cruising.
>
> If there is also a venturi self bailer in the bottom then nearly all
> the water is sucked out when underway (the more speed the better),
> but these of course don't work too well when going slow, and again,
> even the expensive swing-up-flush-with-the-bottom closing type with
> gasket seals will leak somewhat when not under way.
>
> In "Cold Water Sailer" PCB mentioned simply using corks to plug the
> drain holes in the bottom in order to turn the board boat with wet
> ends into a dry boat with plenty of space. Those drain holes are
> really neat the way they have a streamlined "clam-shell" cowling
> underneath to make them act as venturies when under way.
> The "clamshells" should be adaptable to cover cheap plastic screw-in
> drain fittings.
>
> I'm reminded of how I first stumbled onto Bolger's writings a while
> ago in a public library when I happened upon "The Folding Schooner"
> while browsing the sailing shelf. I flipped through the pages
> becoming more amazed at what I saw. When I saw the details for the
> clamshells (on "Rondo" I think it was) I knew this guy was a genius,
> so elegantly, efficiently, and cheaply did his clamshells under a
> corked hole do away with very expensive proprietry self bailers. (I
> bet the corks leak less too!)
>
> I'm reminded that if your drain plugs are where water may collect in
> storage then they will lessen the chance of rot too. If you'd care
> to search over on the Michalak Yahoo group just a few weeks or so
> ago there was a lot of discussion about drain plugs, how many,
> where, and various methods of installing them.
>
Patrick,
the higher the boat will float the more the water will run out, so
you may need to trial more flotation etc. in line with John's
comments.
Flap type scuppers will let a lot of water out quick, but are
difficult to seal so that you can sit on the comfort of a dry
bottom. A bit of water seems always to find its way inside. Apart
from proprietry ones, I've seen plywood ones using rubber gaskets
or "O" rings, pulled in tight by shock cord run from inside and
clipped to a saddle on the flap to hold it shut. Old X-ray film
sheets, or other plastic sheet, cut to shape and hinged at the top
edge by tape, though flexible, is stiff enough to allow water out
and then spring back over the hole to block any wash coming in.
Close them shut for cruising by taping around the other sides. They
always seem to leak a bit, which is not a problem to a racer, but I
think it could be very irritating when cruising.
If there is also a venturi self bailer in the bottom then nearly all
the water is sucked out when underway (the more speed the better),
but these of course don't work too well when going slow, and again,
even the expensive swing-up-flush-with-the-bottom closing type with
gasket seals will leak somewhat when not under way.
In "Cold Water Sailer" PCB mentioned simply using corks to plug the
drain holes in the bottom in order to turn the board boat with wet
ends into a dry boat with plenty of space. Those drain holes are
really neat the way they have a streamlined "clam-shell" cowling
underneath to make them act as venturies when under way.
The "clamshells" should be adaptable to cover cheap plastic screw-in
drain fittings.
I'm reminded of how I first stumbled onto Bolger's writings a while
ago in a public library when I happened upon "The Folding Schooner"
while browsing the sailing shelf. I flipped through the pages
becoming more amazed at what I saw. When I saw the details for the
clamshells (on "Rondo" I think it was) I knew this guy was a genius,
so elegantly, efficiently, and cheaply did his clamshells under a
corked hole do away with very expensive proprietry self bailers. (I
bet the corks leak less too!)
I'm reminded that if your drain plugs are where water may collect in
storage then they will lessen the chance of rot too. If you'd care
to search over on the Michalak Yahoo group just a few weeks or so
ago there was a lot of discussion about drain plugs, how many,
where, and various methods of installing them.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
wrote:
the higher the boat will float the more the water will run out, so
you may need to trial more flotation etc. in line with John's
comments.
Flap type scuppers will let a lot of water out quick, but are
difficult to seal so that you can sit on the comfort of a dry
bottom. A bit of water seems always to find its way inside. Apart
from proprietry ones, I've seen plywood ones using rubber gaskets
or "O" rings, pulled in tight by shock cord run from inside and
clipped to a saddle on the flap to hold it shut. Old X-ray film
sheets, or other plastic sheet, cut to shape and hinged at the top
edge by tape, though flexible, is stiff enough to allow water out
and then spring back over the hole to block any wash coming in.
Close them shut for cruising by taping around the other sides. They
always seem to leak a bit, which is not a problem to a racer, but I
think it could be very irritating when cruising.
If there is also a venturi self bailer in the bottom then nearly all
the water is sucked out when underway (the more speed the better),
but these of course don't work too well when going slow, and again,
even the expensive swing-up-flush-with-the-bottom closing type with
gasket seals will leak somewhat when not under way.
In "Cold Water Sailer" PCB mentioned simply using corks to plug the
drain holes in the bottom in order to turn the board boat with wet
ends into a dry boat with plenty of space. Those drain holes are
really neat the way they have a streamlined "clam-shell" cowling
underneath to make them act as venturies when under way.
The "clamshells" should be adaptable to cover cheap plastic screw-in
drain fittings.
I'm reminded of how I first stumbled onto Bolger's writings a while
ago in a public library when I happened upon "The Folding Schooner"
while browsing the sailing shelf. I flipped through the pages
becoming more amazed at what I saw. When I saw the details for the
clamshells (on "Rondo" I think it was) I knew this guy was a genius,
so elegantly, efficiently, and cheaply did his clamshells under a
corked hole do away with very expensive proprietry self bailers. (I
bet the corks leak less too!)
I'm reminded that if your drain plugs are where water may collect in
storage then they will lessen the chance of rot too. If you'd care
to search over on the Michalak Yahoo group just a few weeks or so
ago there was a lot of discussion about drain plugs, how many,
where, and various methods of installing them.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
wrote:
>I guess I could just drill three or four 1" holes and put in
>ordinary plugs, but maybe I can figure out a way to put in a flap-
>type bailer to let a lot of water out quickly.
>
> Patrick
>
Brilliant, Graeme, brilliant!!! I'll try it. The daggerboard well would
be a perfect place to put the plugs, as they won't be exposed outside
the hull where they might bang into stuff. I guess I could just drill
three or four 1" holes and put in ordinary plugs, but maybe I can figure
out a way to put in a flap-type bailer to let a lot of water out quickly.
Patrick
graeme19121984 wrote:
be a perfect place to put the plugs, as they won't be exposed outside
the hull where they might bang into stuff. I guess I could just drill
three or four 1" holes and put in ordinary plugs, but maybe I can figure
out a way to put in a flap-type bailer to let a lot of water out quickly.
Patrick
graeme19121984 wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
> wrote:
>
>>> ...My problem with my Windsprint is that... ...it has only an
>>>
> inch or two of freeboard when filled with water...
>
> Drain plugs.
>
> Racing classes of dinghies have mostly long since had large scuppers
> low on the transom, and most newer performance classes today do away
> with the transom altogether, so that water may quickly drain. These
> classes usually have a flat-ish run aft without rocker. Windsprint
> doesn't have a transom, and even if it did the bottom rocker would
> still hold a lot of water lower down than the stern. Anyway, you
> probably wouldn't want the bit of water in the bottom of the boat
> that those scuppers allow.
>
> So then, drain plugs in the bottom, or low on the side. It may sound
> like a crazy idea at first to use drain plugs on a tricky to bail
> out, no-freeboard, flooded boat that is far offshore. If you think
> about it though, the stacked foam blocks in the ends will float the
> hull and rig, as Chris worked out. So the foam and the boat are
> trying to float up, and the water, if it was allowed to, would try
> to run down and out of the boat through any low exit. Let it do so, -
> by reaching in from outside as you swim alongside the flooded boat,
> and unscrewing the drain plug(s). Screw the plugs back in when
> sufficient water has drained, and the boat is floating high and dry
> enough to get back in. Finish bailing and sponging dry once back
> aboard. The inexpensive plastic type of drain plug would do. As the
> diameter is fairly small I'd expect only a few gallons to drain per
> minute, but given time it will drain lots. More plugs should speed
> things up. I'd suggest ensuring the plugs are securely attached to
> the boat by a line, and carrying some spares. Arrange the foam block
> (s) retention firmly. Have the foam held down such that it is not
> able to rise much above the floor. If the foam is able to float up
> freely above the gunnels the purpose is defeated.
>
> Chapter 5 of _Folding Schooner_ about "Cold Water Sailboard #301"
> shows PCB's idea of using pluggable drains in the wells at each end
> of a central bouyancy-chamber-raised-cockpit-deck. It should also
> work to lower the water level somewhat where a central cockpit has
> bouyancy chambers at the ends. PCB has covered everything in some
> way at one time or another!
>
> ( I was looking again at CWS as it's a boat I wanna try sometime -
> it's not Folding Schooner, but it is fast, square, and might do for
> this coming summer as a bit of a beach cruiser with a lateen rig. I
> think in later boats PCB stopped designing sweep steering following
> complaints about it, but how would CWS go in the surf (just lighter
> stuff, daggerboard mostly raised) with her sweep? Royal Australian
> Life Saving surfboats use long sweep steering.)
>
> Graeme
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
> wrote:
>
>> Chris:
>>
>> Hmm ... I have blue foam flotation fore and aft. The forward
>>
> block is
>
>> five 2"-thick layers and extends back to the forward edge of the
>>
> partner
>
>> (about 52") and the after block is six 2"-thick layers extending
>> forward to the forward edge of the after thwart....
>>
>> ....the after block is 3 or 4 inches below the sheer....
>>
>
>
>> ...I tied them in temporarily with a cord.
>> Temporary has lasted for nine or ten years, so far. With the cord,
>>
> they
>
>> lift up about an inch or an inch and a half when the boat is full
>>
> of
>
>> water, so I stand to lose that nearly much freeboard when
>>
> swamped....
>
>> ...canoe-style self rescue ....
>>
>>>
>>>
>> ... Christopher Wetherill wrote:
>>
>>> Patrick,
>>>
>>> Since Windsprint is simple in shape, it is possible to
>>>
> approximate the
>
>>> volumes by assuming a vertical sided triangle 1 foot thick.
>>>
> Windsprint
>
>>> Sheet one as published in Build The New Open Boats shows about 2
>>>
> feet of
>
>>> "buoyancy block" forward and about 1.5 foot aft. This is about
>>>
> 3 cubic
>
>>> feet, or 180 pounds of buoyancy, probably sufficient to support
>>>
> the
>
>>> weight of the rig and such, but not 240 pounds of crew
>>>
> (me). ....
>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>> ...The board boat in
>>
>>> Build The New Open Boats is a large windsurfer with a pivoted
>>>
> mast
>
>>> step. There is Archaeopterix on 128 of Bolger Boats. Both look
>>>
> pretty
>
>>> simple. I would be more inclined to build Archaeopterix. It is
>>>
> set up
>
>>> for conventional sailing and its raised seating appeals to my
>>>
> middle
>
>>> aged knees......
>>>
>
>
>>>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
> wrote:
>
>> Chris:
>>
>> I calculate that I have about 5.41 cubic feet of flotation up
>>
> front and
>
>> 3.67 aft, for a total of 9.08 cubic feet. Plus the difference
>>
> between
>
>> the volume and the weight of the plywood. In fresh water that
>>
> would be
>
>> about 566 pounds of buoyancy. So I can feel comfortable about the
>>
> boat
>
>> supporting three people while waiting for rescue....
>>
>
>
>> ... I figure I need
>> at least 5 or 6 inches of freeboard to keep it from tipping enough
>>
> to
>
>> let more water in as I am bailing. And that is if the water is
>>
> calm. If
>
>> I am in 2-foot waves, I probably need more than 6 inches. Clearly,
>>
> the
>
>> only way self-rescue can work is if it is possible to turn the
>>
> boat
>
>> upright with it only partially full of water. Which is where the
>>
> canoe
>
>> method comes in...
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Having rescued more than a few capsized dinghies, I have observed that most boats capsize in rough water. A significant problem is that waves often break over the very low freeboard of a swamped boat faster than a crew can bail. If you are going to be "self rescuing", you need enough flotation to float a swamped boat and crew upright with enough freeboard so that the crew can bail faster than the waves come on board. (And this advice ignores flooding center board cases.)
Something that I always do with a new dinghy is to capsize it in calm, warm, shallow water and see what is needed to right it and bail it out. This is not very realistic, but it does give you a chance to work things out in calm, safe conditions.
John T
Something that I always do with a new dinghy is to capsize it in calm, warm, shallow water and see what is needed to right it and bail it out. This is not very realistic, but it does give you a chance to work things out in calm, safe conditions.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: graeme19121984
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 10:13 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Folding Schooner
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
wrote:
>>...My problem with my Windsprint is that... ...it has only an
inch or two of freeboard when filled with water...
Drain plugs.
Racing classes of dinghies have mostly long since had large scuppers
low on the transom, and most newer performance classes today do away
with the transom altogether, so that water may quickly drain. These
classes usually have a flat-ish run aft without rocker. Windsprint
doesn't have a transom, and even if it did the bottom rocker would
still hold a lot of water lower down than the stern. Anyway, you
probably wouldn't want the bit of water in the bottom of the boat
that those scuppers allow.
So then, drain plugs in the bottom, or low on the side. It may sound
like a crazy idea at first to use drain plugs on a tricky to bail
out, no-freeboard, flooded boat that is far offshore. If you think
about it though, the stacked foam blocks in the ends will float the
hull and rig, as Chris worked out. So the foam and the boat are
trying to float up, and the water, if it was allowed to, would try
to run down and out of the boat through any low exit. Let it do so, -
by reaching in from outside as you swim alongside the flooded boat,
and unscrewing the drain plug(s). Screw the plugs back in when
sufficient water has drained, and the boat is floating high and dry
enough to get back in. Finish bailing and sponging dry once back
aboard. The inexpensive plastic type of drain plug would do. As the
diameter is fairly small I'd expect only a few gallons to drain per
minute, but given time it will drain lots. More plugs should speed
things up. I'd suggest ensuring the plugs are securely attached to
the boat by a line, and carrying some spares. Arrange the foam block
(s) retention firmly. Have the foam held down such that it is not
able to rise much above the floor. If the foam is able to float up
freely above the gunnels the purpose is defeated.
Chapter 5 of _Folding Schooner_ about "Cold Water Sailboard #301"
shows PCB's idea of using pluggable drains in the wells at each end
of a central bouyancy-chamber-raised-cockpit-deck. It should also
work to lower the water level somewhat where a central cockpit has
bouyancy chambers at the ends. PCB has covered everything in some
way at one time or another!
( I was looking again at CWS as it's a boat I wanna try sometime -
it's not Folding Schooner, but it is fast, square, and might do for
this coming summer as a bit of a beach cruiser with a lateen rig. I
think in later boats PCB stopped designing sweep steering following
complaints about it, but how would CWS go in the surf (just lighter
stuff, daggerboard mostly raised) with her sweep? Royal Australian
Life Saving surfboats use long sweep steering.)
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
wrote:
>
> Chris:
>
> Hmm ... I have blue foam flotation fore and aft. The forward
block is
> five 2"-thick layers and extends back to the forward edge of the
partner
> (about 52") and the after block is six 2"-thick layers extending
> forward to the forward edge of the after thwart....
>>
> ....the after block is 3 or 4 inches below the sheer....
>>
>...I tied them in temporarily with a cord.
> Temporary has lasted for nine or ten years, so far. With the cord,
they
> lift up about an inch or an inch and a half when the boat is full
of
> water, so I stand to lose that nearly much freeboard when
swamped....
>>
>...canoe-style self rescue ....
>>
>>
>>
> ... Christopher Wetherill wrote:
> > Patrick,
> >
> > Since Windsprint is simple in shape, it is possible to
approximate the
> > volumes by assuming a vertical sided triangle 1 foot thick.
Windsprint
> > Sheet one as published in Build The New Open Boats shows about 2
feet of
> > "buoyancy block" forward and about 1.5 foot aft. This is about
3 cubic
> > feet, or 180 pounds of buoyancy, probably sufficient to support
the
> > weight of the rig and such, but not 240 pounds of crew
(me). ....
>>
>>
>...The board boat in
> > Build The New Open Boats is a large windsurfer with a pivoted
mast
> > step. There is Archaeopterix on 128 of Bolger Boats. Both look
pretty
> > simple. I would be more inclined to build Archaeopterix. It is
set up
> > for conventional sailing and its raised seating appeals to my
middle
> > aged knees......
>>
>>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
wrote:
>
> Chris:
>
> I calculate that I have about 5.41 cubic feet of flotation up
front and
> 3.67 aft, for a total of 9.08 cubic feet. Plus the difference
between
> the volume and the weight of the plywood. In fresh water that
would be
> about 566 pounds of buoyancy. So I can feel comfortable about the
boat
> supporting three people while waiting for rescue....
>>
>... I figure I need
> at least 5 or 6 inches of freeboard to keep it from tipping enough
to
> let more water in as I am bailing. And that is if the water is
calm. If
> I am in 2-foot waves, I probably need more than 6 inches. Clearly,
the
> only way self-rescue can work is if it is possible to turn the
boat
> upright with it only partially full of water. Which is where the
canoe
> method comes in...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
wrote:
Drain plugs.
Racing classes of dinghies have mostly long since had large scuppers
low on the transom, and most newer performance classes today do away
with the transom altogether, so that water may quickly drain. These
classes usually have a flat-ish run aft without rocker. Windsprint
doesn't have a transom, and even if it did the bottom rocker would
still hold a lot of water lower down than the stern. Anyway, you
probably wouldn't want the bit of water in the bottom of the boat
that those scuppers allow.
So then, drain plugs in the bottom, or low on the side. It may sound
like a crazy idea at first to use drain plugs on a tricky to bail
out, no-freeboard, flooded boat that is far offshore. If you think
about it though, the stacked foam blocks in the ends will float the
hull and rig, as Chris worked out. So the foam and the boat are
trying to float up, and the water, if it was allowed to, would try
to run down and out of the boat through any low exit. Let it do so, -
by reaching in from outside as you swim alongside the flooded boat,
and unscrewing the drain plug(s). Screw the plugs back in when
sufficient water has drained, and the boat is floating high and dry
enough to get back in. Finish bailing and sponging dry once back
aboard. The inexpensive plastic type of drain plug would do. As the
diameter is fairly small I'd expect only a few gallons to drain per
minute, but given time it will drain lots. More plugs should speed
things up. I'd suggest ensuring the plugs are securely attached to
the boat by a line, and carrying some spares. Arrange the foam block
(s) retention firmly. Have the foam held down such that it is not
able to rise much above the floor. If the foam is able to float up
freely above the gunnels the purpose is defeated.
Chapter 5 of _Folding Schooner_ about "Cold Water Sailboard #301"
shows PCB's idea of using pluggable drains in the wells at each end
of a central bouyancy-chamber-raised-cockpit-deck. It should also
work to lower the water level somewhat where a central cockpit has
bouyancy chambers at the ends. PCB has covered everything in some
way at one time or another!
( I was looking again at CWS as it's a boat I wanna try sometime -
it's not Folding Schooner, but it is fast, square, and might do for
this coming summer as a bit of a beach cruiser with a lateen rig. I
think in later boats PCB stopped designing sweep steering following
complaints about it, but how would CWS go in the surf (just lighter
stuff, daggerboard mostly raised) with her sweep? Royal Australian
Life Saving surfboats use long sweep steering.)
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
>>...My problem with my Windsprint is that... ...it has only aninch or two of freeboard when filled with water...
Drain plugs.
Racing classes of dinghies have mostly long since had large scuppers
low on the transom, and most newer performance classes today do away
with the transom altogether, so that water may quickly drain. These
classes usually have a flat-ish run aft without rocker. Windsprint
doesn't have a transom, and even if it did the bottom rocker would
still hold a lot of water lower down than the stern. Anyway, you
probably wouldn't want the bit of water in the bottom of the boat
that those scuppers allow.
So then, drain plugs in the bottom, or low on the side. It may sound
like a crazy idea at first to use drain plugs on a tricky to bail
out, no-freeboard, flooded boat that is far offshore. If you think
about it though, the stacked foam blocks in the ends will float the
hull and rig, as Chris worked out. So the foam and the boat are
trying to float up, and the water, if it was allowed to, would try
to run down and out of the boat through any low exit. Let it do so, -
by reaching in from outside as you swim alongside the flooded boat,
and unscrewing the drain plug(s). Screw the plugs back in when
sufficient water has drained, and the boat is floating high and dry
enough to get back in. Finish bailing and sponging dry once back
aboard. The inexpensive plastic type of drain plug would do. As the
diameter is fairly small I'd expect only a few gallons to drain per
minute, but given time it will drain lots. More plugs should speed
things up. I'd suggest ensuring the plugs are securely attached to
the boat by a line, and carrying some spares. Arrange the foam block
(s) retention firmly. Have the foam held down such that it is not
able to rise much above the floor. If the foam is able to float up
freely above the gunnels the purpose is defeated.
Chapter 5 of _Folding Schooner_ about "Cold Water Sailboard #301"
shows PCB's idea of using pluggable drains in the wells at each end
of a central bouyancy-chamber-raised-cockpit-deck. It should also
work to lower the water level somewhat where a central cockpit has
bouyancy chambers at the ends. PCB has covered everything in some
way at one time or another!
( I was looking again at CWS as it's a boat I wanna try sometime -
it's not Folding Schooner, but it is fast, square, and might do for
this coming summer as a bit of a beach cruiser with a lateen rig. I
think in later boats PCB stopped designing sweep steering following
complaints about it, but how would CWS go in the surf (just lighter
stuff, daggerboard mostly raised) with her sweep? Royal Australian
Life Saving surfboats use long sweep steering.)
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
wrote:
>block is
> Chris:
>
> Hmm ... I have blue foam flotation fore and aft. The forward
> five 2"-thick layers and extends back to the forward edge of thepartner
> (about 52") and the after block is six 2"-thick layers extendingthey
> forward to the forward edge of the after thwart....
>>
> ....the after block is 3 or 4 inches below the sheer....
>>
>...I tied them in temporarily with a cord.
> Temporary has lasted for nine or ten years, so far. With the cord,
> lift up about an inch or an inch and a half when the boat is fullof
> water, so I stand to lose that nearly much freeboard whenswamped....
>>approximate the
>...canoe-style self rescue ....
>>
>>
>>
> ... Christopher Wetherill wrote:
> > Patrick,
> >
> > Since Windsprint is simple in shape, it is possible to
> > volumes by assuming a vertical sided triangle 1 foot thick.Windsprint
> > Sheet one as published in Build The New Open Boats shows about 2feet of
> > "buoyancy block" forward and about 1.5 foot aft. This is about3 cubic
> > feet, or 180 pounds of buoyancy, probably sufficient to supportthe
> > weight of the rig and such, but not 240 pounds of crew(me). ....
>>mast
>>
>...The board boat in
> > Build The New Open Boats is a large windsurfer with a pivoted
> > step. There is Archaeopterix on 128 of Bolger Boats. Both lookpretty
> > simple. I would be more inclined to build Archaeopterix. It isset up
> > for conventional sailing and its raised seating appeals to mymiddle
> > aged knees......--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
>>
>>
wrote:
>front and
> Chris:
>
> I calculate that I have about 5.41 cubic feet of flotation up
> 3.67 aft, for a total of 9.08 cubic feet. Plus the differencebetween
> the volume and the weight of the plywood. In fresh water thatwould be
> about 566 pounds of buoyancy. So I can feel comfortable about theboat
> supporting three people while waiting for rescue....to
>>
>... I figure I need
> at least 5 or 6 inches of freeboard to keep it from tipping enough
> let more water in as I am bailing. And that is if the water iscalm. If
> I am in 2-foot waves, I probably need more than 6 inches. Clearly,the
> only way self-rescue can work is if it is possible to turn theboat
> upright with it only partially full of water. Which is where thecanoe
> method comes in...
Not "Waltzing Matilda" with a trailer crane, but another in this
group's photos, in the album "folding schooner Waltzing Matilda".
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/view/e372?b=4&m=s&o=0
I love the look of the Black Skimmer style lee boards. The lee board
guards might be joined by a plate to lock the hulls together?
Graeme
group's photos, in the album "folding schooner Waltzing Matilda".
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/view/e372?b=4&m=s&o=0
I love the look of the Black Skimmer style lee boards. The lee board
guards might be joined by a plate to lock the hulls together?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
> If you are caught between wanting greater strength but worrying about
> he weight when folding and unfolding, I suggest you go for the
heavier
> construction and work on the folding separately. One builder arranged
> a vertical spar attached to the trailer when in use as a crane. I
> think it would be a big help.
>
> Peter
>
Chris:
I calculate that I have about 5.41 cubic feet of flotation up front and
3.67 aft, for a total of 9.08 cubic feet. Plus the difference between
the volume and the weight of the plywood. In fresh water that would be
about 566 pounds of buoyancy. So I can feel comfortable about the boat
supporting three people while waiting for rescue.
However, spreading all that foam across the top of the boat, it really
would only fill to a depth of a couple inches, so it can only give a
couple inches of freeboard if the boat is full of water. I figure I need
at least 5 or 6 inches of freeboard to keep it from tipping enough to
let more water in as I am bailing. And that is if the water is calm. If
I am in 2-foot waves, I probably need more than 6 inches. Clearly, the
only way self-rescue can work is if it is possible to turn the boat
upright with it only partially full of water. Which is where the canoe
method comes in. I hope.
Patrick
Christopher Wetherill wrote:
I calculate that I have about 5.41 cubic feet of flotation up front and
3.67 aft, for a total of 9.08 cubic feet. Plus the difference between
the volume and the weight of the plywood. In fresh water that would be
about 566 pounds of buoyancy. So I can feel comfortable about the boat
supporting three people while waiting for rescue.
However, spreading all that foam across the top of the boat, it really
would only fill to a depth of a couple inches, so it can only give a
couple inches of freeboard if the boat is full of water. I figure I need
at least 5 or 6 inches of freeboard to keep it from tipping enough to
let more water in as I am bailing. And that is if the water is calm. If
I am in 2-foot waves, I probably need more than 6 inches. Clearly, the
only way self-rescue can work is if it is possible to turn the boat
upright with it only partially full of water. Which is where the canoe
method comes in. I hope.
Patrick
Christopher Wetherill wrote:
> Patrick,
>
> Since Windsprint is simple in shape, it is possible to approximate the
> volumes by assuming a vertical sided triangle 1 foot thick. Windsprint
> Sheet one as published in Build The New Open Boats shows about 2 feet of
> "buoyancy block" forward and about 1.5 foot aft. This is about 3 cubic
> feet, or 180 pounds of buoyancy, probably sufficient to support the
> weight of the rig and such, but not 240 pounds of crew (me).
> Personally, I would be tempted to extend this to the thwart aft and to
> the partner forward. This would be about 12 cubic feet of volume, or
> about 600 pounds of buoyancy. That would be sufficient to raise the
> gunwales a few inches and allow bailing.
>
> The original sailfish was a kit (my sister still has ours). I do not
> know if plans were ever published. We got ours from a boat rental shop
> at the Jersey Shore in about 1967. He would build boats in winter, rent
> them out for a season, and sell them in the fall. The board boat in
> Build The New Open Boats is a large windsurfer with a pivoted mast
> step. There is Archaeopterix on 128 of Bolger Boats. Both look pretty
> simple. I would be more inclined to build Archaeopterix. It is set up
> for conventional sailing and its raised seating appeals to my middle
> aged knees.
>
> V/R
> Chris
>
> Patrick Crockett wrote:
>
>> Chris:
>>
>> I'm not sure. I remember that there is a board boat (like a sunfish) in
>> one of the Instant Boat books. (And the original Sunfish was plywood --
>> don't know if there are plans out there anywhere.) Also, I think that
>> June Bug and Teal may be small enough to man-handle back upright.
>>
>> My problem with my Windsprint is that, even with the foam flotation I
>> put in and the mast removed, it has only an inch or two of freeboard
>> when filled with water, so I cannot bail out faster than it comes back
>> in as the boat wallows in tiny waves. Which really means that I have
>> either put the flotation in the wrong place or not put in enough. So ...
>> if you are willing to sacrifice more interior space to flotation that I
>> was, the Windsprint probably can become self-rescuing. Bolger does not
>> give any indication of how much would be adequate (no mention of
>> flotation at all, as far as I can recall), so it is a trial and error
>> sort of thing. Unless you have some software that calculates
>> displacement and such.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>> Christopher Wetherill wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Patrick,
>>>
>>> I concede the point, but what is available to home build that satisfies
>>> the self rescuing criterion?
>>>
>>> Patrick Crockett wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> My 2 cents on learning to sail:
>>>>
>>>> One extremely important quality of a boat to learn on is that it be
>>>> self-rescuing. ...
>>>>
>>>> I haven't yet figured out how to self-rescue my Windsprint ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> Bolger rules!!!
>> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Chris:
Hmm ... I have blue foam flotation fore and aft. The forward block is
five 2"-thick layers and extends back to the forward edge of the partner
(about 52") and the after block is six 2"-thick layers extending
forward to the forward edge of the after thwart. I'll make other
measurements and calculate volume later. I made the forward block
thinner so that there would be a play deck for my daughter. Ten years
later, she still likes to go forward to lie down and drowse as we slip
through the waves. ("Slip" in a sort of slappy, thumpy way, of course.)
the after block is 3 or 4 inches below the sheer, which gives just
enough room to put a coiled line, a couple flotation cushions, water
bottles, sailing gloves, etc. there, out of the way of the tiller,
protected from rolling off at any angle of heel, and instantly
accessible to the helmsman. If I had more foam (what I used was debris
from a building site after a hurricane blew through some years ago) I
could add a layer up front -- my daughter is 13 now and swims a mile or
more every day so I am no longer nervous about her falling overboard.
I wasn't ready to make the blocks permanent or to build permanent
compartments around them, so I tied them in temporarily with a cord.
Temporary has lasted for nine or ten years, so far. With the cord, they
lift up about an inch or an inch and a half when the boat is full of
water, so I stand to lose that nearly much freeboard when swamped.
For the past few years I have intended to try a canoe-style self rescue
-- push the bow or stern as far down under the water as my weight
allows me to and then let the boat pop up out of the water and flop
back down half-full. I think I may have tried it once and it came out of
the water so lazily that there was no "pop" -- it just sort of eased up
and wallowed back down, full of water. Maybe because I could not push
the end down far enough to get the boat adequately vertical for the
method to work. I think I remember this, but my memory is a little
fuzzy. Can't remember whether the mast was still stepped, for example.
The last time I swamped was in a busy channel on the 4th of July and I
was too flustered and worried about all the traffic to remember to try
the method. I plan to try to get out on the water next weekend, and
I'll try it then.
Now that I'm totally middle-aged and slow, I'd just as soon give the
boat to my daughter and build something a little more stable, but I
really don't want to watch her sailing over the horizon (or around the
bend) in a boat I'm not confident she can self rescue.
Patrick
Christopher Wetherill wrote:
Hmm ... I have blue foam flotation fore and aft. The forward block is
five 2"-thick layers and extends back to the forward edge of the partner
(about 52") and the after block is six 2"-thick layers extending
forward to the forward edge of the after thwart. I'll make other
measurements and calculate volume later. I made the forward block
thinner so that there would be a play deck for my daughter. Ten years
later, she still likes to go forward to lie down and drowse as we slip
through the waves. ("Slip" in a sort of slappy, thumpy way, of course.)
the after block is 3 or 4 inches below the sheer, which gives just
enough room to put a coiled line, a couple flotation cushions, water
bottles, sailing gloves, etc. there, out of the way of the tiller,
protected from rolling off at any angle of heel, and instantly
accessible to the helmsman. If I had more foam (what I used was debris
from a building site after a hurricane blew through some years ago) I
could add a layer up front -- my daughter is 13 now and swims a mile or
more every day so I am no longer nervous about her falling overboard.
I wasn't ready to make the blocks permanent or to build permanent
compartments around them, so I tied them in temporarily with a cord.
Temporary has lasted for nine or ten years, so far. With the cord, they
lift up about an inch or an inch and a half when the boat is full of
water, so I stand to lose that nearly much freeboard when swamped.
For the past few years I have intended to try a canoe-style self rescue
-- push the bow or stern as far down under the water as my weight
allows me to and then let the boat pop up out of the water and flop
back down half-full. I think I may have tried it once and it came out of
the water so lazily that there was no "pop" -- it just sort of eased up
and wallowed back down, full of water. Maybe because I could not push
the end down far enough to get the boat adequately vertical for the
method to work. I think I remember this, but my memory is a little
fuzzy. Can't remember whether the mast was still stepped, for example.
The last time I swamped was in a busy channel on the 4th of July and I
was too flustered and worried about all the traffic to remember to try
the method. I plan to try to get out on the water next weekend, and
I'll try it then.
Now that I'm totally middle-aged and slow, I'd just as soon give the
boat to my daughter and build something a little more stable, but I
really don't want to watch her sailing over the horizon (or around the
bend) in a boat I'm not confident she can self rescue.
Patrick
Christopher Wetherill wrote:
> Patrick,
>
> Since Windsprint is simple in shape, it is possible to approximate the
> volumes by assuming a vertical sided triangle 1 foot thick. Windsprint
> Sheet one as published in Build The New Open Boats shows about 2 feet of
> "buoyancy block" forward and about 1.5 foot aft. This is about 3 cubic
> feet, or 180 pounds of buoyancy, probably sufficient to support the
> weight of the rig and such, but not 240 pounds of crew (me).
> Personally, I would be tempted to extend this to the thwart aft and to
> the partner forward. This would be about 12 cubic feet of volume, or
> about 600 pounds of buoyancy. That would be sufficient to raise the
> gunwales a few inches and allow bailing.
>
> The original sailfish was a kit (my sister still has ours). I do not
> know if plans were ever published. We got ours from a boat rental shop
> at the Jersey Shore in about 1967. He would build boats in winter, rent
> them out for a season, and sell them in the fall. The board boat in
> Build The New Open Boats is a large windsurfer with a pivoted mast
> step. There is Archaeopterix on 128 of Bolger Boats. Both look pretty
> simple. I would be more inclined to build Archaeopterix. It is set up
> for conventional sailing and its raised seating appeals to my middle
> aged knees.
>
> V/R
> Chris
>
That is a nice idea. Half the weight to deal with as well when handling.
----- Original Message -----
From: graeme19121984
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 12:52 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Folding Schooner
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mikeboatman@...> wrote:
>>
>...Would not be easy to handle a heavy board and a dagger board in
>Morten Bay would hit ground eventually.
>>
How about a board of half the weight (60±lbs) in each hull? There
could be just enough distance between them to exclude the foreboard
wash interfering with the aft board?
> I put two heavy pieces of hardwood as bilge keels on my QueenMab
>as an experiment... ... It sails well, and you can run it up on a
>ramp to get out without hurting her.... ...Maybe some very stubby
>bilge keels so trailering does not get harder....
>>
Stubby, and under FS, quite long, of 3/8" galvanised steel, say two
of 90±lbs each, attached quickly at only three fastening points in
shallow water while the boat is floating unfolded on its side;
spanning the joint and so also adding tremendous strength to the
hull similar to the Bolger Storm Petrel keel, but only 8±" deep like
under Beach Cat?
Graeme
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mikeboatman@...> wrote:
could be just enough distance between them to exclude the foreboard
wash interfering with the aft board?
of 90±lbs each, attached quickly at only three fastening points in
shallow water while the boat is floating unfolded on its side;
spanning the joint and so also adding tremendous strength to the
hull similar to the Bolger Storm Petrel keel, but only 8±" deep like
under Beach Cat?
Graeme
>>How about a board of half the weight (60±lbs) in each hull? There
>...Would not be easy to handle a heavy board and a dagger board in
>Morten Bay would hit ground eventually.
>>
could be just enough distance between them to exclude the foreboard
wash interfering with the aft board?
> I put two heavy pieces of hardwood as bilge keels on my QueenMabStubby, and under FS, quite long, of 3/8" galvanised steel, say two
>as an experiment... ... It sails well, and you can run it up on a
>ramp to get out without hurting her.... ...Maybe some very stubby
>bilge keels so trailering does not get harder....
>>
of 90±lbs each, attached quickly at only three fastening points in
shallow water while the boat is floating unfolded on its side;
spanning the joint and so also adding tremendous strength to the
hull similar to the Bolger Storm Petrel keel, but only 8±" deep like
under Beach Cat?
Graeme
Now ya tell me!
Any chance that reference could be dug up! I'm getting ready for my second shot at that casting!!!!!
Sincerely,
Gene T.
"A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
built it will not float ---- "
----- Original Message ----
From: craig o'donnell <dadadata@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 6:01:36 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Folding Schooner
Hers Schooner board was a mistake.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Any chance that reference could be dug up! I'm getting ready for my second shot at that casting!!!!!
Sincerely,
Gene T.
"A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
built it will not float ---- "
----- Original Message ----
From: craig o'donnell <dadadata@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 6:01:36 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Folding Schooner
>I think Bolger said at some more recent date that the super heavy His and
>
>G'day Mike,
>
>H H Payson says FS can be sailed by only two. I was wondering if the
>dagger ballast keel from Single Handed Schooner might not dispense
>with the necessity of a crew and make FS stiff enough to also be
>single handed?
Hers Schooner board was a mistake.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>On 8/25/06, craig o'donnellI don't ... sorry. It may simply have been that not providing a better way
><<mailto:dadadata%40friend.ly.net>dadadata@...> wrote:
>> I think Bolger said at some more recent date that the super heavy His and
>> Hers Schooner board was a mistake.
>
>I wonder where he said/wrote this, do you remember?
to manage the board was a mistake. It tickled my memory somewhere.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I looked at 'His and Her Schooner' pretty closely. I think that the back of the daggerboard could be built with teeth that woule fit a jack screw. This would allow a puny old guy like me to raise the board with little physical effort. These light schooners with daggerboards are shalow hulls with a deep, essentially fixed keel--fine for sailing in deep water, but for my sailing grounds (and casual navigation) they are not a very good fit.
John T
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Folding Schooner
G'Day Graham,
Would not be easy to handle a heavy board and a dagger board in Morten Bay would hit ground eventually. I think some ballast moulded into the hull, inside the side air tanks could be one sollution. Maybe some very stubby bilge keels so trailering does not get harder. They also could be part hidden by the inside of the air tanks.
I put two heavy pieces of hardwood as bilge keels on my QueenMab as an experiment. I was not happy getting into her. Under four knots foils matter less and I found it great. It sails well, and you can run it up on a ramp to get out without hurting her. The keels keep her steady when getting in and if she tips the other keels stops her. If you run aground reduce draft by heading to wind to level her and tack away. Call me a kangaroo short of a picnic but it works.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: graeme19121984
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 9:42 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Folding Schooner
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mikeboatman@...> wrote:
>Human ballast essential and have the command shift ballast handy.
>Not a single handed sailing boat really.
G'day Mike,
H H Payson says FS can be sailed by only two. I was wondering if the
dagger ballast keel from Single Handed Schooner might not dispense
with the necessity of a crew and make FS stiff enough to also be
single handed?
And with similar rigging and decking changes? It may change her from
PCB's fast "toy" for rivers and bays to a short open sea crossing
cruiser.
Graeme
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/427 - Release Date: 8/24/2006
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
G'Day Graham,
Would not be easy to handle a heavy board and a dagger board in Morten Bay would hit ground eventually. I think some ballast moulded into the hull, inside the side air tanks could be one sollution. Maybe some very stubby bilge keels so trailering does not get harder. They also could be part hidden by the inside of the air tanks.
I put two heavy pieces of hardwood as bilge keels on my QueenMab as an experiment. I was not happy getting into her. Under four knots foils matter less and I found it great. It sails well, and you can run it up on a ramp to get out without hurting her. The keels keep her steady when getting in and if she tips the other keels stops her. If you run aground reduce draft by heading to wind to level her and tack away. Call me a kangaroo short of a picnic but it works.
Mike
Would not be easy to handle a heavy board and a dagger board in Morten Bay would hit ground eventually. I think some ballast moulded into the hull, inside the side air tanks could be one sollution. Maybe some very stubby bilge keels so trailering does not get harder. They also could be part hidden by the inside of the air tanks.
I put two heavy pieces of hardwood as bilge keels on my QueenMab as an experiment. I was not happy getting into her. Under four knots foils matter less and I found it great. It sails well, and you can run it up on a ramp to get out without hurting her. The keels keep her steady when getting in and if she tips the other keels stops her. If you run aground reduce draft by heading to wind to level her and tack away. Call me a kangaroo short of a picnic but it works.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: graeme19121984
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 9:42 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Folding Schooner
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mikeboatman@...> wrote:
>Human ballast essential and have the command shift ballast handy.
>Not a single handed sailing boat really.
G'day Mike,
H H Payson says FS can be sailed by only two. I was wondering if the
dagger ballast keel from Single Handed Schooner might not dispense
with the necessity of a crew and make FS stiff enough to also be
single handed?
And with similar rigging and decking changes? It may change her from
PCB's fast "toy" for rivers and bays to a short open sea crossing
cruiser.
Graeme
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On 8/25/06, craig o'donnell <dadadata@...> wrote:
Sue, you have just built one of these boats, true? What do you think
of that heavy daggerboard.
> I think Bolger said at some more recent date that the super heavy His andI wonder where he said/wrote this, do you remember?
> Hers Schooner board was a mistake.
Sue, you have just built one of these boats, true? What do you think
of that heavy daggerboard.
>I think Bolger said at some more recent date that the super heavy His and
>
>G'day Mike,
>
>H H Payson says FS can be sailed by only two. I was wondering if the
>dagger ballast keel from Single Handed Schooner might not dispense
>with the necessity of a crew and make FS stiff enough to also be
>single handed?
Hers Schooner board was a mistake.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Graeme
No picture yet of my Folding Schooner, I have just about finished the front Hull.
My ideas have changed whilst building ( Allways a bad thing ) slows it down a lot,
Now my Two part Schooner will be held together with Tie Down straps (4 of them )
these are of a local manufacture made of Stainless Steel.
2 are at deck level and 2 are inside the Hull just above the water line, to seal the
joint where the lower ones stretch from one hull to the other I have used Hoover
vacum cleaner drive belts think of these as over sized O riings,
and to register the two hulls together and keep them so , I have used rubber door
stops these are sunken into one hull and the half that is showing drop into holes
in the other hull .
In the future I may make a lifting keel for it.
I can see that it is not simple-to make it streamlined the leading edge has to be
the main pivot point this would also take the load so it would have to be very
strong and the pivot point in the hull would be a weak point also.
Alex
No picture yet of my Folding Schooner, I have just about finished the front Hull.
My ideas have changed whilst building ( Allways a bad thing ) slows it down a lot,
Now my Two part Schooner will be held together with Tie Down straps (4 of them )
these are of a local manufacture made of Stainless Steel.
2 are at deck level and 2 are inside the Hull just above the water line, to seal the
joint where the lower ones stretch from one hull to the other I have used Hoover
vacum cleaner drive belts think of these as over sized O riings,
and to register the two hulls together and keep them so , I have used rubber door
stops these are sunken into one hull and the half that is showing drop into holes
in the other hull .
In the future I may make a lifting keel for it.
I can see that it is not simple-to make it streamlined the leading edge has to be
the main pivot point this would also take the load so it would have to be very
strong and the pivot point in the hull would be a weak point also.
Alex
----- Original Message -----
From: graeme19121984
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 12:59 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Folding Schooner
Hi Alex,
are you able to post some pictures of the actual structure of how
you will join the separate hulls? Joining them like this avoids any
of the hinging concerns, but what about launch and retrieval to the
trailer?
Being genuinely separate hulls you could certainly avoid the
insurance liability problems some FS builders are faced with, as
currently under discussion over on the Instant Boats message board:
http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?
t=437&sid=a6740efb297a9d1367f88229ff011099
http://tinyurl.com/gcgeh
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Heywood" <alex.heywood@...>
wrote:
>
> At the moment I am building a folding Schooner, and have found
that when built as per plan it is very fragile,
> as it has to be as light as possible that it can be lifted to the
verticale point and then down again to fold/unfold.
> What I am doing is to build it as per normall sharpie, 1/2" bottom
and 3/8" sides and then either float the two
> parts together or fix them together on dry land and then launch
it.See Breakdown schooner in BWAOM
> alex
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Alex,
are you able to post some pictures of the actual structure of how
you will join the separate hulls? Joining them like this avoids any
of the hinging concerns, but what about launch and retrieval to the
trailer?
Being genuinely separate hulls you could certainly avoid the
insurance liability problems some FS builders are faced with, as
currently under discussion over on the Instant Boats message board:
http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?
t=437&sid=a6740efb297a9d1367f88229ff011099
http://tinyurl.com/gcgeh
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Heywood" <alex.heywood@...>
wrote:
are you able to post some pictures of the actual structure of how
you will join the separate hulls? Joining them like this avoids any
of the hinging concerns, but what about launch and retrieval to the
trailer?
Being genuinely separate hulls you could certainly avoid the
insurance liability problems some FS builders are faced with, as
currently under discussion over on the Instant Boats message board:
http://instantboats.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?
t=437&sid=a6740efb297a9d1367f88229ff011099
http://tinyurl.com/gcgeh
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Heywood" <alex.heywood@...>
wrote:
>that when built as per plan it is very fragile,
> At the moment I am building a folding Schooner, and have found
> as it has to be as light as possible that it can be lifted to theverticale point and then down again to fold/unfold.
> What I am doing is to build it as per normall sharpie, 1/2" bottomand 3/8" sides and then either float the two
> parts together or fix them together on dry land and then launchit.See Breakdown schooner in BWAOM
> alex
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" <mikeboatman@...> wrote:
H H Payson says FS can be sailed by only two. I was wondering if the
dagger ballast keel from Single Handed Schooner might not dispense
with the necessity of a crew and make FS stiff enough to also be
single handed?
And with similar rigging and decking changes? It may change her from
PCB's fast "toy" for rivers and bays to a short open sea crossing
cruiser.
Graeme
>Human ballast essential and have the command shift ballast handy.G'day Mike,
>Not a single handed sailing boat really.
H H Payson says FS can be sailed by only two. I was wondering if the
dagger ballast keel from Single Handed Schooner might not dispense
with the necessity of a crew and make FS stiff enough to also be
single handed?
And with similar rigging and decking changes? It may change her from
PCB's fast "toy" for rivers and bays to a short open sea crossing
cruiser.
Graeme
Patrick,
Since Windsprint is simple in shape, it is possible to approximate the
volumes by assuming a vertical sided triangle 1 foot thick. Windsprint
Sheet one as published in Build The New Open Boats shows about 2 feet of
"buoyancy block" forward and about 1.5 foot aft. This is about 3 cubic
feet, or 180 pounds of buoyancy, probably sufficient to support the
weight of the rig and such, but not 240 pounds of crew (me).
Personally, I would be tempted to extend this to the thwart aft and to
the partner forward. This would be about 12 cubic feet of volume, or
about 600 pounds of buoyancy. That would be sufficient to raise the
gunwales a few inches and allow bailing.
The original sailfish was a kit (my sister still has ours). I do not
know if plans were ever published. We got ours from a boat rental shop
at the Jersey Shore in about 1967. He would build boats in winter, rent
them out for a season, and sell them in the fall. The board boat in
Build The New Open Boats is a large windsurfer with a pivoted mast
step. There is Archaeopterix on 128 of Bolger Boats. Both look pretty
simple. I would be more inclined to build Archaeopterix. It is set up
for conventional sailing and its raised seating appeals to my middle
aged knees.
V/R
Chris
Patrick Crockett wrote:
Since Windsprint is simple in shape, it is possible to approximate the
volumes by assuming a vertical sided triangle 1 foot thick. Windsprint
Sheet one as published in Build The New Open Boats shows about 2 feet of
"buoyancy block" forward and about 1.5 foot aft. This is about 3 cubic
feet, or 180 pounds of buoyancy, probably sufficient to support the
weight of the rig and such, but not 240 pounds of crew (me).
Personally, I would be tempted to extend this to the thwart aft and to
the partner forward. This would be about 12 cubic feet of volume, or
about 600 pounds of buoyancy. That would be sufficient to raise the
gunwales a few inches and allow bailing.
The original sailfish was a kit (my sister still has ours). I do not
know if plans were ever published. We got ours from a boat rental shop
at the Jersey Shore in about 1967. He would build boats in winter, rent
them out for a season, and sell them in the fall. The board boat in
Build The New Open Boats is a large windsurfer with a pivoted mast
step. There is Archaeopterix on 128 of Bolger Boats. Both look pretty
simple. I would be more inclined to build Archaeopterix. It is set up
for conventional sailing and its raised seating appeals to my middle
aged knees.
V/R
Chris
Patrick Crockett wrote:
> Chris:
>
> I'm not sure. I remember that there is a board boat (like a sunfish) in
> one of the Instant Boat books. (And the original Sunfish was plywood --
> don't know if there are plans out there anywhere.) Also, I think that
> June Bug and Teal may be small enough to man-handle back upright.
>
> My problem with my Windsprint is that, even with the foam flotation I
> put in and the mast removed, it has only an inch or two of freeboard
> when filled with water, so I cannot bail out faster than it comes back
> in as the boat wallows in tiny waves. Which really means that I have
> either put the flotation in the wrong place or not put in enough. So ...
> if you are willing to sacrifice more interior space to flotation that I
> was, the Windsprint probably can become self-rescuing. Bolger does not
> give any indication of how much would be adequate (no mention of
> flotation at all, as far as I can recall), so it is a trial and error
> sort of thing. Unless you have some software that calculates
> displacement and such.
>
> Patrick
>
> Christopher Wetherill wrote:
>
>> Patrick,
>>
>> I concede the point, but what is available to home build that satisfies
>> the self rescuing criterion?
>>
>> Patrick Crockett wrote:
>>
>>
>>> My 2 cents on learning to sail:
>>>
>>> One extremely important quality of a boat to learn on is that it be
>>> self-rescuing. ...
>>>
>>> I haven't yet figured out how to self-rescue my Windsprint ...
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Here again is further proof, as if any more were needed, that beer
is indeed good for the health. Eyesight included.
Hi Peter,
yep, there are two tillers, and lots of other mods. For instance a
38kg galvanised steel centreboard in the flotation tank wall, kick-
up rudder, sleeved luffs, furling jib, slightly offset hinging such
that the bow rests neatly between the motor and rudder when folded,
and so on. I dug out the magazine articles last night and saw that I
had forgotten lots of the details mentioned there about this
particular boat.
They talk of attempting, and show a little cartoon, of a three or
four part Folding Schooner lengthened mod to be transported on two
trailers! I think I'd be rubbing my eyes too at first if I ever saw
that go by on the water! Upon realising my eye sight was fine I'd be
raising some more eye elixers high in hearty salutations! ;)
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...>
wrote:
is indeed good for the health. Eyesight included.
Hi Peter,
yep, there are two tillers, and lots of other mods. For instance a
38kg galvanised steel centreboard in the flotation tank wall, kick-
up rudder, sleeved luffs, furling jib, slightly offset hinging such
that the bow rests neatly between the motor and rudder when folded,
and so on. I dug out the magazine articles last night and saw that I
had forgotten lots of the details mentioned there about this
particular boat.
They talk of attempting, and show a little cartoon, of a three or
four part Folding Schooner lengthened mod to be transported on two
trailers! I think I'd be rubbing my eyes too at first if I ever saw
that go by on the water! Upon realising my eye sight was fine I'd be
raising some more eye elixers high in hearty salutations! ;)
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...>
wrote:
>... I gotta admit,however,that my almost industrial intake ofcold
> brewskis over the years may be finally taking its' toll on me forI
> keep seeing TWO tillers on this boat.That is,one in the expectedtell
> location on the transom and another(I think!?) just forward of the
> mainmast.....it even has a hiking stick,fertheloveogod! Please
> me I'm wrong or simply losing my mind.This is way too cool an ideatemps
> to pass up otherwise :-)
>
> Thanks again and cheers!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan,slowly getting back in the saddle(boatbuilding that
> is) after several weeks worth of vacation time-off,solar oven
> in the bowshed(too hot to work and keep ice in the cooler) and
> basically goofing off with Jean and Gaby aboard L'Anémone(ex Le
> Cabotin).....ah yesssss.......any excuse for cold beers :-)
>
Patrick,
is this still the problem after you have also used the "haul
yourself up on the bow or stern thus dipping it, then give it a
really, really big push" technique.? (Causes a wave in the cockpit
which can splash a lot of water out in one go. The gunnels then
should at least float high enough above the surrounding water to
prevent the waves slopping in. The remainder can then be
successfully bailed with a bailer/bucket while treading water
alongside until floating high enough to reboard and continue bailing
from there.)
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
wrote:
is this still the problem after you have also used the "haul
yourself up on the bow or stern thus dipping it, then give it a
really, really big push" technique.? (Causes a wave in the cockpit
which can splash a lot of water out in one go. The gunnels then
should at least float high enough above the surrounding water to
prevent the waves slopping in. The remainder can then be
successfully bailed with a bailer/bucket while treading water
alongside until floating high enough to reboard and continue bailing
from there.)
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
wrote:
> My problem with my Windsprint is that, even with the foamflotation I
> put in and the mast removed, it has only an inch or two offreeboard
> when filled with water, so I cannot bail out faster than it comesback
> in as the boat wallows in tiny waves.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> >
The two Bricks when joined in tandem are said to perform well and
carrying a lot of gear - with grout designed as a built-in cooler.
Then once you have set up camp, you can relax beside the cooler and
watch the kids racing:-)
Nels
The two Bricks when joined in tandem are said to perform well and
> sail reasonably fast. This would give some schooner handlingA tandem brick might make a good beach cruiser too - capable of
> practise in a boat that could also probably be single handed rather
> easily.
>
carrying a lot of gear - with grout designed as a built-in cooler.
Then once you have set up camp, you can relax beside the cooler and
watch the kids racing:-)
Nels
> At the moment I am building a folding Schooner, and have found thatwhen built as per plan it is very fragile...
I agree they are pretty flexible, but I'm not sure they are fragile.
Lot's have been modified one way or another.
If you are caught between wanting greater strength but worrying about
he weight when folding and unfolding, I suggest you go for the heavier
construction and work on the folding separately. One builder arranged
a vertical spar attached to the trailer when in use as a crane. I
think it would be a big help.
Peter
At the moment I am building a folding Schooner, and have found that when built as per plan it is very fragile,
as it has to be as light as possible that it can be lifted to the verticale point and then down again to fold/unfold.
What I am doing is to build it as per normall sharpie, 1/2" bottom and 3/8" sides and then either float the two
parts together or fix them together on dry land and then launch it.See Breakdown schooner in BWAOM
alex
as it has to be as light as possible that it can be lifted to the verticale point and then down again to fold/unfold.
What I am doing is to build it as per normall sharpie, 1/2" bottom and 3/8" sides and then either float the two
parts together or fix them together on dry land and then launch it.See Breakdown schooner in BWAOM
alex
----- Original Message -----
From: donschultz8275
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 5:06 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Folding Schooner
The pics I've seen of unfolding these before have involved lifting the
rear half while on the trailer. The on the side method in the water
looks really nice where wading depth is available.
Question: Could one make a short cutwater for the rear half, to make
a single mast sailer for a rookie, or for one to get out for a couple
of hours single handed? Build the twin hulls to start, but not use it
as a full schooner till the skills are learned?
I'm just thinking to build a June Bug from BWAOM and Payson's book as
a first sailboat. Such a project would also develop boat building
skills. If I build the rear hull of a folding schooner plus a
cutwater, would I have a decent learning tool?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Chris:
I'm not sure. I remember that there is a board boat (like a sunfish) in
one of the Instant Boat books. (And the original Sunfish was plywood --
don't know if there are plans out there anywhere.) Also, I think that
June Bug and Teal may be small enough to man-handle back upright.
My problem with my Windsprint is that, even with the foam flotation I
put in and the mast removed, it has only an inch or two of freeboard
when filled with water, so I cannot bail out faster than it comes back
in as the boat wallows in tiny waves. Which really means that I have
either put the flotation in the wrong place or not put in enough. So ...
if you are willing to sacrifice more interior space to flotation that I
was, the Windsprint probably can become self-rescuing. Bolger does not
give any indication of how much would be adequate (no mention of
flotation at all, as far as I can recall), so it is a trial and error
sort of thing. Unless you have some software that calculates
displacement and such.
Patrick
Christopher Wetherill wrote:
I'm not sure. I remember that there is a board boat (like a sunfish) in
one of the Instant Boat books. (And the original Sunfish was plywood --
don't know if there are plans out there anywhere.) Also, I think that
June Bug and Teal may be small enough to man-handle back upright.
My problem with my Windsprint is that, even with the foam flotation I
put in and the mast removed, it has only an inch or two of freeboard
when filled with water, so I cannot bail out faster than it comes back
in as the boat wallows in tiny waves. Which really means that I have
either put the flotation in the wrong place or not put in enough. So ...
if you are willing to sacrifice more interior space to flotation that I
was, the Windsprint probably can become self-rescuing. Bolger does not
give any indication of how much would be adequate (no mention of
flotation at all, as far as I can recall), so it is a trial and error
sort of thing. Unless you have some software that calculates
displacement and such.
Patrick
Christopher Wetherill wrote:
> Patrick,
>
> I concede the point, but what is available to home build that satisfies
> the self rescuing criterion?
>
> Patrick Crockett wrote:
>
>> My 2 cents on learning to sail:
>>
>> One extremely important quality of a boat to learn on is that it be
>> self-rescuing. ...
>>
>> I haven't yet figured out how to self-rescue my Windsprint ...
>>
Peter,
The original query referred to contemplating a June Bug as a first build
to develop skills. Micro looks a little complex for a confidence builder.
V/R
Chris
Peter Lenihan wrote:
The original query referred to contemplating a June Bug as a first build
to develop skills. Micro looks a little complex for a confidence builder.
V/R
Chris
Peter Lenihan wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Wetherill <wetherillc@...>
> wrote:
> but what is available to home build that satisfies
>
>> the self rescuing criterion?
>>
>
>
>
> ...........a MICRO perhaps.......:-)
>
> Peter Lenihan
>
>
>
>
>The pics I've seen of unfolding these before have involved lifting theSeems like a lot of work - the June Bug is a great little design. Easy to
>rear half while on the trailer. The on the side method in the water
>looks really nice where wading depth is available.
>
>Question: Could one make a short cutwater for the rear half, to make
>a single mast sailer for a rookie, or for one to get out for a couple
>of hours single handed? Build the twin hulls to start, but not use it
>as a full schooner till the skills are learned?
>
>I'm just thinking to build a June Bug from BWAOM and Payson's book as
>a first sailboat. Such a project would also develop boat building
>skills. If I build the rear hull of a folding schooner plus a
>cutwater, would I have a decent learning tool?
build and everyone who's built one raves about it.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Wetherill <wetherillc@...>
wrote:
but what is available to home build that satisfies
Peter Lenihan
wrote:
but what is available to home build that satisfies
> the self rescuing criterion?...........a MICRO perhaps.......:-)
Peter Lenihan
Bruce,
I'll dig out the AABB magazine issue and see what they wrote about
her. I can't remember offhand if anything was in the flotation
chambers. There was a lot of thought, and good planning that went into
the modifications. I don't have acccess to a scanner at present, but
when I can I'll see about posting the article(s). (In fact there may
have been two.) Perhaps someone else may be able to post it sooner.
Greg said AABB gave permission to post their material, if duly
acknowledged.
Graeme
I'll dig out the AABB magazine issue and see what they wrote about
her. I can't remember offhand if anything was in the flotation
chambers. There was a lot of thought, and good planning that went into
the modifications. I don't have acccess to a scanner at present, but
when I can I'll see about posting the article(s). (In fact there may
have been two.) Perhaps someone else may be able to post it sooner.
Greg said AABB gave permission to post their material, if duly
acknowledged.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> That side deck appears wider than a 'standard' Folding Schooner side
> deck, and it perhaps is an improvement too. I am curious if there is
> hard floatation under that side deck?
>
Hi all,
I sailed on her. It is duel controlled, one forward and one back. It can be steered from each section. It is stable enough but keep one hand on the main sheets. It has side air tanks but Moreton Bay is shallow, much of it anyway. You are never too far from land. A good sailer should not tip her. Human ballast essential and have the command shift ballast handy. Not a single handed sailing boat really.
Mike
I sailed on her. It is duel controlled, one forward and one back. It can be steered from each section. It is stable enough but keep one hand on the main sheets. It has side air tanks but Moreton Bay is shallow, much of it anyway. You are never too far from land. A good sailer should not tip her. Human ballast essential and have the command shift ballast handy. Not a single handed sailing boat really.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Wetherill
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Folding Schooner
Patrick,
I concede the point, but what is available to home build that satisfies
the self rescuing criterion?
V/R
Chris
Patrick Crockett wrote:
> My 2 cents on learning to sail:
>
> One extremely important quality of a boat to learn on is that it be
> self-rescuing. If you have to wait for help every time you go over, you
> will grow up to be a timid sailor. OTOH, if you are in a boat that can
> go over and be righted with a few minutes work, you will learn to
> recover from near-capsize situations, which will help a lot when you do
> sail boats that are not self-rescuing.
>
> I haven't yet figured out how to self-rescue my Windsprint (short of
> swimming it to shore and bailing it out there), so I don't really think
> of it as a good learner (though it is what I'm teaching my daughter to
> sail in -- with me alongside in a kayak).
>
> Patrick
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Patrick,
I concede the point, but what is available to home build that satisfies
the self rescuing criterion?
V/R
Chris
Patrick Crockett wrote:
I concede the point, but what is available to home build that satisfies
the self rescuing criterion?
V/R
Chris
Patrick Crockett wrote:
> My 2 cents on learning to sail:
>
> One extremely important quality of a boat to learn on is that it be
> self-rescuing. If you have to wait for help every time you go over, you
> will grow up to be a timid sailor. OTOH, if you are in a boat that can
> go over and be righted with a few minutes work, you will learn to
> recover from near-capsize situations, which will help a lot when you do
> sail boats that are not self-rescuing.
>
> I haven't yet figured out how to self-rescue my Windsprint (short of
> swimming it to shore and bailing it out there), so I don't really think
> of it as a good learner (though it is what I'm teaching my daughter to
> sail in -- with me alongside in a kayak).
>
> Patrick
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
Thanks for the nifty link to some swell photos of a really well
done Folding Schooner!
I gotta admit,however,that my almost industrial intake of cold
brewskis over the years may be finally taking its' toll on me for I
keep seeing TWO tillers on this boat.That is,one in the expected
location on the transom and another(I think!?) just forward of the
mainmast.....it even has a hiking stick,fertheloveogod! Please tell
me I'm wrong or simply losing my mind.This is way too cool an idea
to pass up otherwise :-)
Thanks again and cheers!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,slowly getting back in the saddle(boatbuilding that
is) after several weeks worth of vacation time-off,solar oven temps
in the bowshed(too hot to work and keep ice in the cooler) and
basically goofing off with Jean and Gaby aboard L'Anémone(ex Le
Cabotin).....ah yesssss.......any excuse for cold beers :-)
wrote:
>think
> For all you schoonerados, here's something I just chanced on. I
> this is the modified one (to boards, side decks, hinge and lockingRQYS
> mechanism) that was launched in Brisbane(looks like the ramp near
> at Manly harbour) two years ago:Graeme,
>
>http://community.webshots.com/album/548246269VtgyuF
Thanks for the nifty link to some swell photos of a really well
done Folding Schooner!
I gotta admit,however,that my almost industrial intake of cold
brewskis over the years may be finally taking its' toll on me for I
keep seeing TWO tillers on this boat.That is,one in the expected
location on the transom and another(I think!?) just forward of the
mainmast.....it even has a hiking stick,fertheloveogod! Please tell
me I'm wrong or simply losing my mind.This is way too cool an idea
to pass up otherwise :-)
Thanks again and cheers!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,slowly getting back in the saddle(boatbuilding that
is) after several weeks worth of vacation time-off,solar oven temps
in the bowshed(too hot to work and keep ice in the cooler) and
basically goofing off with Jean and Gaby aboard L'Anémone(ex Le
Cabotin).....ah yesssss.......any excuse for cold beers :-)
Don - boatbuilding, sailing, and schooner experience?
As you would most likely more often sail a Folding Schooner with at
least one other crew, even if you develop the ability to sail
singlehanded, why not at first build two boats that can be sailed
independently as well as joined together? Build two Bricks and join
them with Grout, the Brick connector. The Brick plan is in BWAOM,
but you would have to obtain Grout plans from PCB&F (I think the
Grout plan is supplied with a Brick plan for an additional fee).
Brick 'n Grout should be a good project for developing boatbuilding
skills. Build it cheaply, just enough to last a year or two, until
you and your crew are ready for FS.
The two Bricks when joined in tandem are said to perform well and
sail reasonably fast. This would give some schooner handling
practise in a boat that could also probably be single handed rather
easily.
However, what is really good about the arrangement is that if your
potential crew for a future Folding Schooner also need to develop
sailing skills, then they will be able to easily solo crew (or
skipper, if you like) independently in their own boat - a Brick. The
best way to learn how to sail, and to gain an understanding of
sailing boat performance responses is by having to do all that is
required to make the boat perform while solo. Then, later, on multi-
crewed performance boats, such as FS, every crew member will know
intuitevly what they need to do from moment to moment to work in
best with what the rest of the crew are doing. This works out a lot
better than a capable skipper yelling incomprehendable orders to
crew who should have already perfomed some task as the boat under
performs, gets stuck in irons, or capsizes. Bricks are not that
fast, but are good sailers and should be excellent for initial sail
training. Two caveats though are: 1) that the stability of Brick
which on the one hand would give a timid beginner confidence also
means that the consequences of mistakes are not immediately made
apparent by capsize, and so develop bad habits; 2) that a capsized
Brick would hold lots of water and be difficult to self rescue and
so might scare some, and put them off sailing (simple bouyancy tanks
should fix this).
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "donschultz8275" <donschultz@...>
wrote:
As you would most likely more often sail a Folding Schooner with at
least one other crew, even if you develop the ability to sail
singlehanded, why not at first build two boats that can be sailed
independently as well as joined together? Build two Bricks and join
them with Grout, the Brick connector. The Brick plan is in BWAOM,
but you would have to obtain Grout plans from PCB&F (I think the
Grout plan is supplied with a Brick plan for an additional fee).
Brick 'n Grout should be a good project for developing boatbuilding
skills. Build it cheaply, just enough to last a year or two, until
you and your crew are ready for FS.
The two Bricks when joined in tandem are said to perform well and
sail reasonably fast. This would give some schooner handling
practise in a boat that could also probably be single handed rather
easily.
However, what is really good about the arrangement is that if your
potential crew for a future Folding Schooner also need to develop
sailing skills, then they will be able to easily solo crew (or
skipper, if you like) independently in their own boat - a Brick. The
best way to learn how to sail, and to gain an understanding of
sailing boat performance responses is by having to do all that is
required to make the boat perform while solo. Then, later, on multi-
crewed performance boats, such as FS, every crew member will know
intuitevly what they need to do from moment to moment to work in
best with what the rest of the crew are doing. This works out a lot
better than a capable skipper yelling incomprehendable orders to
crew who should have already perfomed some task as the boat under
performs, gets stuck in irons, or capsizes. Bricks are not that
fast, but are good sailers and should be excellent for initial sail
training. Two caveats though are: 1) that the stability of Brick
which on the one hand would give a timid beginner confidence also
means that the consequences of mistakes are not immediately made
apparent by capsize, and so develop bad habits; 2) that a capsized
Brick would hold lots of water and be difficult to self rescue and
so might scare some, and put them off sailing (simple bouyancy tanks
should fix this).
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "donschultz8275" <donschultz@...>
wrote:
>the
> The pics I've seen of unfolding these before have involved lifting
> rear half while on the trailer. The on the side method in thewater
> looks really nice where wading depth is available.make
>
> Question: Could one make a short cutwater for the rear half, to
> a single mast sailer for a rookie, or for one to get out for acouple
> of hours single handed? Build the twin hulls to start, but notuse it
> as a full schooner till the skills are learned?as
>
> I'm just thinking to build a June Bug from BWAOM and Payson's book
> a first sailboat. Such a project would also develop boat building
> skills. If I build the rear hull of a folding schooner plus a
> cutwater, would I have a decent learning tool?
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...>
wrote:
wrote:
>be
> My 2 cents on learning to sail:
>
> One extremely important quality of a boat to learn on is that it
> self-rescuing. If you have to wait for help every time you goover, you
> will grow up to be a timid sailor. OTOH, if you are in a boat thatcan
> go over and be righted with a few minutes work, you will learn toyou do
> recover from near-capsize situations, which will help a lot when
> sail boats that are not self-rescuing.of
>
> I haven't yet figured out how to self-rescue my Windsprint (short
> swimming it to shore and bailing it out there), so I don't reallythink
> of it as a good learner (though it is what I'm teaching mydaughter to
> sail in -- with me alongside in a kayak).easily
>
> Patrick
>
> Christopher Wetherill wrote:
> > From Bolger Boats page 208: "She's not a sensible choice for a
> > singlehander in the first place, though one man can sail her
> > enough by leaving off the jib, which doesn't contribute much forwith reefed
> > windward work in any case. In strong winds she handles well
> > mainsail and full foresail." I think, however that Mr. Bolgerwas
> > assuming a certain amount of experience in this hypotheticalcase.
> >capsized.
> > Later in the same paragraph he discusses the behavior when
> > The fact that this is an issue for discussion implies that thesituation
> > is likely to arise. My personal opinion is that novices shouldlearn on
> > boats that are less likely to tip over and capable of sailingsailfish. It
> > satisfactorily with one sail. I learned the basics in a
> > was, of course very tippy, but could not swamp. I was also 9,so
> > agility was not an issue. Teal, Zephyr, Surf, and Windsprintall seem
> > to be good candidates. Both from the standpoint of the issuesabove and
> > the similarity of building technique to the folding schooner.a couple
> >
> > V/R
> > Chris
> >
> > Bruce Hallman wrote:
> >
> >>> a single mast sailer for a rookie, or for one to get out for
> >>> of hours single handed? Build the twin hulls to start, butnot use it
> >>> as a full schooner till the skills are learned?mainsail up?
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Doesn't the book say she can be singlehanded with just the
> >>flogging dead horses
> >>
> >> Bolger rules!!!
> >> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> >> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
> >> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,Fred' posts
> >> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snipaway
> >> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
> >> Yahoo! Groups Linksflogging dead horses
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snipaway
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
My 2 cents on learning to sail:
One extremely important quality of a boat to learn on is that it be
self-rescuing. If you have to wait for help every time you go over, you
will grow up to be a timid sailor. OTOH, if you are in a boat that can
go over and be righted with a few minutes work, you will learn to
recover from near-capsize situations, which will help a lot when you do
sail boats that are not self-rescuing.
I haven't yet figured out how to self-rescue my Windsprint (short of
swimming it to shore and bailing it out there), so I don't really think
of it as a good learner (though it is what I'm teaching my daughter to
sail in -- with me alongside in a kayak).
Patrick
Christopher Wetherill wrote:
One extremely important quality of a boat to learn on is that it be
self-rescuing. If you have to wait for help every time you go over, you
will grow up to be a timid sailor. OTOH, if you are in a boat that can
go over and be righted with a few minutes work, you will learn to
recover from near-capsize situations, which will help a lot when you do
sail boats that are not self-rescuing.
I haven't yet figured out how to self-rescue my Windsprint (short of
swimming it to shore and bailing it out there), so I don't really think
of it as a good learner (though it is what I'm teaching my daughter to
sail in -- with me alongside in a kayak).
Patrick
Christopher Wetherill wrote:
> From Bolger Boats page 208: "She's not a sensible choice for a
> singlehander in the first place, though one man can sail her easily
> enough by leaving off the jib, which doesn't contribute much for
> windward work in any case. In strong winds she handles well with reefed
> mainsail and full foresail." I think, however that Mr. Bolger was
> assuming a certain amount of experience in this hypothetical case.
>
> Later in the same paragraph he discusses the behavior when capsized.
> The fact that this is an issue for discussion implies that the situation
> is likely to arise. My personal opinion is that novices should learn on
> boats that are less likely to tip over and capable of sailing
> satisfactorily with one sail. I learned the basics in a sailfish. It
> was, of course very tippy, but could not swamp. I was also 9, so
> agility was not an issue. Teal, Zephyr, Surf, and Windsprint all seem
> to be good candidates. Both from the standpoint of the issues above and
> the similarity of building technique to the folding schooner.
>
> V/R
> Chris
>
> Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
>>> a single mast sailer for a rookie, or for one to get out for a couple
>>> of hours single handed? Build the twin hulls to start, but not use it
>>> as a full schooner till the skills are learned?
>>>
>>>
>> Doesn't the book say she can be singlehanded with just the mainsail up?
>>
>>
>> Bolger rules!!!
>> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
From Bolger Boats page 208: "She's not a sensible choice for a
singlehander in the first place, though one man can sail her easily
enough by leaving off the jib, which doesn't contribute much for
windward work in any case. In strong winds she handles well with reefed
mainsail and full foresail." I think, however that Mr. Bolger was
assuming a certain amount of experience in this hypothetical case.
Later in the same paragraph he discusses the behavior when capsized.
The fact that this is an issue for discussion implies that the situation
is likely to arise. My personal opinion is that novices should learn on
boats that are less likely to tip over and capable of sailing
satisfactorily with one sail. I learned the basics in a sailfish. It
was, of course very tippy, but could not swamp. I was also 9, so
agility was not an issue. Teal, Zephyr, Surf, and Windsprint all seem
to be good candidates. Both from the standpoint of the issues above and
the similarity of building technique to the folding schooner.
V/R
Chris
Bruce Hallman wrote:
singlehander in the first place, though one man can sail her easily
enough by leaving off the jib, which doesn't contribute much for
windward work in any case. In strong winds she handles well with reefed
mainsail and full foresail." I think, however that Mr. Bolger was
assuming a certain amount of experience in this hypothetical case.
Later in the same paragraph he discusses the behavior when capsized.
The fact that this is an issue for discussion implies that the situation
is likely to arise. My personal opinion is that novices should learn on
boats that are less likely to tip over and capable of sailing
satisfactorily with one sail. I learned the basics in a sailfish. It
was, of course very tippy, but could not swamp. I was also 9, so
agility was not an issue. Teal, Zephyr, Surf, and Windsprint all seem
to be good candidates. Both from the standpoint of the issues above and
the similarity of building technique to the folding schooner.
V/R
Chris
Bruce Hallman wrote:
>> a single mast sailer for a rookie, or for one to get out for a couple
>> of hours single handed? Build the twin hulls to start, but not use it
>> as a full schooner till the skills are learned?
>>
>
> Doesn't the book say she can be singlehanded with just the mainsail up?
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> a single mast sailer for a rookie, or for one to get out for a coupleDoesn't the book say she can be singlehanded with just the mainsail up?
> of hours single handed? Build the twin hulls to start, but not use it
> as a full schooner till the skills are learned?
The pics I've seen of unfolding these before have involved lifting the
rear half while on the trailer. The on the side method in the water
looks really nice where wading depth is available.
Question: Could one make a short cutwater for the rear half, to make
a single mast sailer for a rookie, or for one to get out for a couple
of hours single handed? Build the twin hulls to start, but not use it
as a full schooner till the skills are learned?
I'm just thinking to build a June Bug from BWAOM and Payson's book as
a first sailboat. Such a project would also develop boat building
skills. If I build the rear hull of a folding schooner plus a
cutwater, would I have a decent learning tool?
rear half while on the trailer. The on the side method in the water
looks really nice where wading depth is available.
Question: Could one make a short cutwater for the rear half, to make
a single mast sailer for a rookie, or for one to get out for a couple
of hours single handed? Build the twin hulls to start, but not use it
as a full schooner till the skills are learned?
I'm just thinking to build a June Bug from BWAOM and Payson's book as
a first sailboat. Such a project would also develop boat building
skills. If I build the rear hull of a folding schooner plus a
cutwater, would I have a decent learning tool?
That side deck appears wider than a 'standard' Folding Schooner side
deck, and it perhaps is an improvement too. I am curious if there is
hard floatation under that side deck?
deck, and it perhaps is an improvement too. I am curious if there is
hard floatation under that side deck?
For all you schoonerados, here's something I just chanced on. I think
this is the modified one (to boards, side decks, hinge and locking
mechanism) that was launched in Brisbane(looks like the ramp near RQYS
at Manly harbour) two years ago:
http://community.webshots.com/album/548246269VtgyuF
Reportedly only beaten by trimarans in bay racing IIRC. I saw it one
day on the river in light conditions with 4-5 crew go through a fleet
of moderately yardsticked dinghies as if they were trawling.
Easy one person trailer launch while still folded - fold out on side
in water (floats high on side deck) - and later, fold up in water -
retrieve that way to trailer (this may require help I think).
Graeme
this is the modified one (to boards, side decks, hinge and locking
mechanism) that was launched in Brisbane(looks like the ramp near RQYS
at Manly harbour) two years ago:
http://community.webshots.com/album/548246269VtgyuF
Reportedly only beaten by trimarans in bay racing IIRC. I saw it one
day on the river in light conditions with 4-5 crew go through a fleet
of moderately yardsticked dinghies as if they were trawling.
Easy one person trailer launch while still folded - fold out on side
in water (floats high on side deck) - and later, fold up in water -
retrieve that way to trailer (this may require help I think).
Graeme
Chuck L.,
I have been following your schooner since last year. I'm the guy who
lives just south of Philadelphia, about a mile from the Delaware
River. Most of my sailing is done at the Jersey shore at Beach
Haven, Long beach Island, NJ and at Blue Marsh Lake outside of
Reading. Lately, our Traditional Small Craft chapter has been
holding it's annual Messabout at Union Lake in Millville, NJ. Had a
great time last year giving rides to a lot of people. I rarely go
out on the Delaware, mainly because of limited access and also
because of the strong current when the tides change. I have been
sailing the schooner for 22 years (sail number 17, but I never put it
on the boat). Have you resolved the bilgeboard problem?
Keep us posted.
Rich Sharp
I have been following your schooner since last year. I'm the guy who
lives just south of Philadelphia, about a mile from the Delaware
River. Most of my sailing is done at the Jersey shore at Beach
Haven, Long beach Island, NJ and at Blue Marsh Lake outside of
Reading. Lately, our Traditional Small Craft chapter has been
holding it's annual Messabout at Union Lake in Millville, NJ. Had a
great time last year giving rides to a lot of people. I rarely go
out on the Delaware, mainly because of limited access and also
because of the strong current when the tides change. I have been
sailing the schooner for 22 years (sail number 17, but I never put it
on the boat). Have you resolved the bilgeboard problem?
Keep us posted.
Rich Sharp
We have used 1 and 1/2" square for the stiffeners on the forward hull.
We are planning on using 2x4s on the aft hull just for the clearance
issue. They are clearly not needed for strength. The 1 and 1/2 square
stock is very stiff over the 25" length.My oldest son thinks this
combination will actually look better than 2 x 4s on both decks. Family
boat building brings out the distinctinve aesthetic of each
personality. It does look like Bolger drew 2x4s on the section on the
plan which is taken through the aft hull. With the pins centered they
have good clearance over the deck.
I like the proposed rules for the Folding Schooner Class that came with
the plans to wit that anyone protesting a boat for being too lightly
built is entitled to kick it with bare toes in a place of his/her
choice. Damage to boat to be born by the owner. Damage to toes to be
born by the protestor.
It is great to hear from an in use Folding Schooner. We walk as yet by
faith and not by sight.It gives us hope.
Peace,
Leander
"richard sharp" <rbshar-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=913
We are planning on using 2x4s on the aft hull just for the clearance
issue. They are clearly not needed for strength. The 1 and 1/2 square
stock is very stiff over the 25" length.My oldest son thinks this
combination will actually look better than 2 x 4s on both decks. Family
boat building brings out the distinctinve aesthetic of each
personality. It does look like Bolger drew 2x4s on the section on the
plan which is taken through the aft hull. With the pins centered they
have good clearance over the deck.
I like the proposed rules for the Folding Schooner Class that came with
the plans to wit that anyone protesting a boat for being too lightly
built is entitled to kick it with bare toes in a place of his/her
choice. Damage to boat to be born by the owner. Damage to toes to be
born by the protestor.
It is great to hear from an in use Folding Schooner. We walk as yet by
faith and not by sight.It gives us hope.
Peace,
Leander
"richard sharp" <rbshar-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=913
> Interesting reading about deck stiffeners. I used available 1-3/8"edges
> square stock because I had only a circular saw to work with. The pins
> for the halyards went in okay, but the halyards jam under the pins.
> Those stiffeners look fine on top of the deck, just round off the
> a little. Mine are only screwed in from underneath and they have beenthe
> fine for these 22 years.
>
> The thought of a cabin leaves me cold. That fwd space of the aft hull
> is the best place for your friends to sit when you take them sailing.
> And it would be in the way for getting around when setting up or even
> for communicating with the fwd crew. NEVER add unneccessary weight to
> this boat! Even my 4HP outboard begs for an extra crew fwd to hold
> bow in the water! And speaking about the motor well, you'll be ableto
> make out how it goes together when you get that far. My only additionthat
> was a piece of 2x3 glued to the inside of the transom to give it
> thickness to clamp the motor to.
>
> My decks went on a little haphazardly, but like they say, stand back a
> few feet and they look great! When the decks went on the aft hull,
> thats when the hull really stiffened up. I was afraid for a while
> the whole back end would wobble when we sailed. Phil Bolger did a
> great job designing the Folding Schooner. Be careful if you add or
> subtract!
>
Interesting reading about deck stiffeners. I used available 1-3/8"
square stock because I had only a circular saw to work with. The pins
for the halyards went in okay, but the halyards jam under the pins.
Those stiffeners look fine on top of the deck, just round off the edges
a little. Mine are only screwed in from underneath and they have been
fine for these 22 years.
The thought of a cabin leaves me cold. That fwd space of the aft hull
is the best place for your friends to sit when you take them sailing.
And it would be in the way for getting around when setting up or even
for communicating with the fwd crew. NEVER add unneccessary weight to
this boat! Even my 4HP outboard begs for an extra crew fwd to hold the
bow in the water! And speaking about the motor well, you'll be able to
make out how it goes together when you get that far. My only addition
was a piece of 2x3 glued to the inside of the transom to give it
thickness to clamp the motor to.
My decks went on a little haphazardly, but like they say, stand back a
few feet and they look great! When the decks went on the aft hull,
thats when the hull really stiffened up. I was afraid for a while that
the whole back end would wobble when we sailed. Phil Bolger did a
great job designing the Folding Schooner. Be careful if you add or
subtract!
square stock because I had only a circular saw to work with. The pins
for the halyards went in okay, but the halyards jam under the pins.
Those stiffeners look fine on top of the deck, just round off the edges
a little. Mine are only screwed in from underneath and they have been
fine for these 22 years.
The thought of a cabin leaves me cold. That fwd space of the aft hull
is the best place for your friends to sit when you take them sailing.
And it would be in the way for getting around when setting up or even
for communicating with the fwd crew. NEVER add unneccessary weight to
this boat! Even my 4HP outboard begs for an extra crew fwd to hold the
bow in the water! And speaking about the motor well, you'll be able to
make out how it goes together when you get that far. My only addition
was a piece of 2x3 glued to the inside of the transom to give it
thickness to clamp the motor to.
My decks went on a little haphazardly, but like they say, stand back a
few feet and they look great! When the decks went on the aft hull,
thats when the hull really stiffened up. I was afraid for a while that
the whole back end would wobble when we sailed. Phil Bolger did a
great job designing the Folding Schooner. Be careful if you add or
subtract!
The boat comfortably holds six to eight adults or any mix of adults and
kids. I have a neighbor who likes to jam himself into the forward
small bow area in front of the foremast where I keep the anchor; helps
keep the bow down too. At one time we had a crew of four and "rescued"
three stranded clammers and three bushel baskets of clams.
I first saw the schooner advertised in RUDDER magazine in 1973? and
sent for the plans. As a boy, I had the opportunity to walk the decks
of a beached three-masted schooner that was a gift shop in Beach Haven,
New Jersey. That is why I chose the schooner. I had learned to sail
on a Sailfish. I built a model with all the parts and decided to do
the real thing. I was a draftsman at Sun Ship Shipbuilding & Drydock
at the time and had little money, so it took me three years.
The boat is 31' long, 3'-8 beam on the bottom and about 5' beam at the
gunwales. She is an open boat, just a daysailer. Very stable, so you
can walk around in her. Mike, it is funny the reactions you get when
we fold/unfold her at the ramp. Some places we go, you find
enthusiasm, and some places most people don't care. On the water, we
always get kind remarks and a lot of boats come over for a look. The
boat can be sailed onto the beach except for the limitation of the
rudder which is not a kick-up.
Twenty two years sailing this boat has been fun. The more I sail it,
the more fun it becomes. If anything, I sometimes wish I had a smaller
boat so I did not have to round up a "crew". Bigger boat, bigger
headaches! The maintenance involves painting some every year,
varnishing once in a while. After all this time, I have only replaced
a few snap hooks and two sheets. Everything else is original except
the rudder (long story) and the bilge boards (due to warping).
Rich Sharp
kids. I have a neighbor who likes to jam himself into the forward
small bow area in front of the foremast where I keep the anchor; helps
keep the bow down too. At one time we had a crew of four and "rescued"
three stranded clammers and three bushel baskets of clams.
I first saw the schooner advertised in RUDDER magazine in 1973? and
sent for the plans. As a boy, I had the opportunity to walk the decks
of a beached three-masted schooner that was a gift shop in Beach Haven,
New Jersey. That is why I chose the schooner. I had learned to sail
on a Sailfish. I built a model with all the parts and decided to do
the real thing. I was a draftsman at Sun Ship Shipbuilding & Drydock
at the time and had little money, so it took me three years.
The boat is 31' long, 3'-8 beam on the bottom and about 5' beam at the
gunwales. She is an open boat, just a daysailer. Very stable, so you
can walk around in her. Mike, it is funny the reactions you get when
we fold/unfold her at the ramp. Some places we go, you find
enthusiasm, and some places most people don't care. On the water, we
always get kind remarks and a lot of boats come over for a look. The
boat can be sailed onto the beach except for the limitation of the
rudder which is not a kick-up.
Twenty two years sailing this boat has been fun. The more I sail it,
the more fun it becomes. If anything, I sometimes wish I had a smaller
boat so I did not have to round up a "crew". Bigger boat, bigger
headaches! The maintenance involves painting some every year,
varnishing once in a while. After all this time, I have only replaced
a few snap hooks and two sheets. Everything else is original except
the rudder (long story) and the bilge boards (due to warping).
Rich Sharp
Leander,
In addition to Chucks links to Michalak here's the source of white
polytarp material. They also have a very nice tutorial on their site.
http://members.aol.com/polysail/HTML/index.htm
However, they do seem to recommend (or used to) a "roach" that is a convex
instead of a concave line to the leach of the sail. Don't do it, it will
flog on you. Also, they like full perimeter bolt rope. Many think that
creates turbulence at the leach. Michilak uses fiberglass tape sewn in. A
guy in canada cuts the poly with a sharp soldering iron. I think that's
best for small sails with little stress. My compromise is to seal the leach
with fiberglass reinforced carpet tape, but no bolt rope. It seems resistant
to stretch, but time will tell. Again, a lot depends on size and stresses.
Craig O'donnel also has some good info on his site on poly sails. Here's
the link.
http://www.friend.ly.net/user-homepages/d/dadadata/oddsails.html
Really cruise Jim Michilak's site. He has lots of info there, for lug
sails and sharpie sprits etc. His current newsletter (address on my links
page) is about making lug sails with darts. Very helpful. This is current,
and may not be on the archive site.
Good luck.
Cheers,
David
harding2@...wrote:
Simplicity Boats (mirror sites - if one doesn't work...)
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/
http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/
Here's my latest boat:
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/featherwind.html
Quasi esoteric musical instruments
unicornstrings.com
In addition to Chucks links to Michalak here's the source of white
polytarp material. They also have a very nice tutorial on their site.
http://members.aol.com/polysail/HTML/index.htm
However, they do seem to recommend (or used to) a "roach" that is a convex
instead of a concave line to the leach of the sail. Don't do it, it will
flog on you. Also, they like full perimeter bolt rope. Many think that
creates turbulence at the leach. Michilak uses fiberglass tape sewn in. A
guy in canada cuts the poly with a sharp soldering iron. I think that's
best for small sails with little stress. My compromise is to seal the leach
with fiberglass reinforced carpet tape, but no bolt rope. It seems resistant
to stretch, but time will tell. Again, a lot depends on size and stresses.
Craig O'donnel also has some good info on his site on poly sails. Here's
the link.
http://www.friend.ly.net/user-homepages/d/dadadata/oddsails.html
Really cruise Jim Michilak's site. He has lots of info there, for lug
sails and sharpie sprits etc. His current newsletter (address on my links
page) is about making lug sails with darts. Very helpful. This is current,
and may not be on the archive site.
Good luck.
Cheers,
David
harding2@...wrote:
> What is a radial dart and where can I get more info on making Polytarp--
> sails?
> Thanks for the quick response.
> Leander
>
>harding-@...wrote:
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=122
> > I use polytarp sails exclusivly.
> >
> > They work fine. Use the grey polytarp, and use radial darts for
> shaping and
> > not the "edgecut" method.
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Just Tell Us What You Want...
> Respond.com - Shopping the World for You!
>http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/738
>
> eGroups.com home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
>http://www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications
Simplicity Boats (mirror sites - if one doesn't work...)
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/
http://members.xoom.com/simpleboats/
Here's my latest boat:
http://members.tripod.com/simplicityboats/featherwind.html
Quasi esoteric musical instruments
unicornstrings.com
Leander:
Here is the Michalak "way back archives" link with the polytarp listings -
just scroll on down to the polytarp area:
http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/michalak/alphabetical.htm#P
Chuck
Here is the Michalak "way back archives" link with the polytarp listings -
just scroll on down to the polytarp area:
http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/michalak/alphabetical.htm#P
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: <harding2@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 4:37 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Folding Schooner
> What is a radial dart and where can I get more info on making Polytarp
> sails?
> Thanks for the quick response.
> Leander
>
>
>harding-@...wrote:
> original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=122
> > I use polytarp sails exclusivly.
> >
> > They work fine. Use the grey polytarp, and use radial darts for
> shaping and
> > not the "edgecut" method.
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Just Tell Us What You Want...
> Respond.com - Shopping the World for You!
>http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/738
>
>
> eGroups.com home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
>http://www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
>
>
What is a radial dart and where can I get more info on making Polytarp
sails?
Thanks for the quick response.
Leander
harding-@...wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=122
sails?
Thanks for the quick response.
Leander
harding-@...wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=122
> I use polytarp sails exclusivly.shaping and
>
> They work fine. Use the grey polytarp, and use radial darts for
> not the "edgecut" method.
>
>
Just found out about this site. My three boys and I are gearing up to
build a folding schooner and would love to hear from anyone who has
this boat or has built one. We have built a Gypsy, sailing version and
a six hour canoe. Just sold our beloved Sea Pearl so that we can have
the fun of building again. We are thinking of trying Polytarp sails
and would like to hear of any experience with that.
Peace,
Leander Harding
build a folding schooner and would love to hear from anyone who has
this boat or has built one. We have built a Gypsy, sailing version and
a six hour canoe. Just sold our beloved Sea Pearl so that we can have
the fun of building again. We are thinking of trying Polytarp sails
and would like to hear of any experience with that.
Peace,
Leander Harding
I use polytarp sails exclusivly.
They work fine. Use the grey polytarp, and use radial darts for shaping and
not the "edgecut" method.
harding2@...wrote:
They work fine. Use the grey polytarp, and use radial darts for shaping and
not the "edgecut" method.
harding2@...wrote:
> Just found out about this site. My three boys and I are gearing up to
> build a folding schooner and would love to hear from anyone who has
> this boat or has built one. We have built a Gypsy, sailing version and
> a six hour canoe. Just sold our beloved Sea Pearl so that we can have
> the fun of building again. We are thinking of trying Polytarp sails
> and would like to hear of any experience with that.
> Peace,
> Leander Harding
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Just Tell Us What You Want...
> Respond.com - Shopping the World for You!
>http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/738
>
> eGroups.com home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
>http://www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications