Re: wood flour & Rubens Nymph
OK, a few thoughts I've built two boats with Polyester resin, one
of them a Rubens Nymph, and several more with epoxy, so I feel
qualified to offer a few hints.
First, it seems that Lauan plywood varies immensely in suitability
for boatbuilding. Some seems to work fine, some delaminates
dreadfully. I'd test whatever I planned to use by boiling it for a
while, or leaving it in the dishwasher for a week, or something like
that. Almost all of it has VERY thin face veneers, and the wood of
the core is not nearly as nice as the faces. If it were my boat, I'd
use 1/4" ACX Douglas Fir, for the following reasons:
- It's almost as cheap as the Lauan
- You know it's going to be waterproof
- It's considerably stronger
- All three plies are the same thickness
- Filling knotholes isn't that much trouble use a little resin
putty.
About polyester resin: Folks will tell you it doesn't stick to wood
and will peel off. Well, the first boat I built was a Gypsy with ACX
fir and polyester. That was 11 years ago, and it's still going
strong, despite hard use and indifferent care, so it must work at
least some of the time. The real horror stories I've heard about
polyester involve some confusion between layup and finishing resin.
This is an important point, so forgive me if I tell you what you
already know.
Polyester resin doesn't cure completely when exposed to air. Layup
resin contains no wax, and hence the top few molecules of the resin
layer will stay sticky. This allows subsequent layers to bond well,
but it's the very devil to sand. Finishing resin has wax in it,
which floats to the surface as it cures, sealing it off from air and
allowing it to cure completely, although it prevents subsequent
layers from sticking unless the wax is completely removed. You can
add wax ("surfacing agent") to layup resin for the last coat, but you
can't make finishing resin work for the first layers except by
sanding very thoroughly.
IMHO, Polyester resin is fine with fir plywood if you're careful.
Humidity affects cure time a little, temperature affects it a lot
more, but the amount of MEK peroxide catalyst you put in makes a much
greater difference. Adjust the amount of catalyst as needed.
As far as filler goes, I always used fumed silica (Cabosil or =).
Wood flour is sawdust, just much finer particles. Actual sawdust is
pretty gritty and relatively hard to work. Sanding dust is finer and
would work OK if you can get enough. I've never used wheat flour,
talc or limestone, although the latter seems like it would be REALLY
hard to sand. I don't think the resin fillet adds much structural
strength to the joint; that's mostly in the glass, so I suspect the
filler isn't critical. This isn't a boat in which one would want to
cross oceans.
One tip about the Rubens Nymph (it's a great boat, BTW). I would
make the transoms and frames out of 3/4" plywood. You can cut the
frames way down since they're so much stronger, and it's MUCH easier
to put the boat together. I used drywall screws into the edges of
the 3/4" frames with no wire at all. No problem, just take the
screws out before glassing the outside. If you must stitch the
panels together, nylon cable ties are much nicer than wire.
Sorry so wordy Hope this helps.
Keith Wilson
of them a Rubens Nymph, and several more with epoxy, so I feel
qualified to offer a few hints.
First, it seems that Lauan plywood varies immensely in suitability
for boatbuilding. Some seems to work fine, some delaminates
dreadfully. I'd test whatever I planned to use by boiling it for a
while, or leaving it in the dishwasher for a week, or something like
that. Almost all of it has VERY thin face veneers, and the wood of
the core is not nearly as nice as the faces. If it were my boat, I'd
use 1/4" ACX Douglas Fir, for the following reasons:
- It's almost as cheap as the Lauan
- You know it's going to be waterproof
- It's considerably stronger
- All three plies are the same thickness
- Filling knotholes isn't that much trouble use a little resin
putty.
About polyester resin: Folks will tell you it doesn't stick to wood
and will peel off. Well, the first boat I built was a Gypsy with ACX
fir and polyester. That was 11 years ago, and it's still going
strong, despite hard use and indifferent care, so it must work at
least some of the time. The real horror stories I've heard about
polyester involve some confusion between layup and finishing resin.
This is an important point, so forgive me if I tell you what you
already know.
Polyester resin doesn't cure completely when exposed to air. Layup
resin contains no wax, and hence the top few molecules of the resin
layer will stay sticky. This allows subsequent layers to bond well,
but it's the very devil to sand. Finishing resin has wax in it,
which floats to the surface as it cures, sealing it off from air and
allowing it to cure completely, although it prevents subsequent
layers from sticking unless the wax is completely removed. You can
add wax ("surfacing agent") to layup resin for the last coat, but you
can't make finishing resin work for the first layers except by
sanding very thoroughly.
IMHO, Polyester resin is fine with fir plywood if you're careful.
Humidity affects cure time a little, temperature affects it a lot
more, but the amount of MEK peroxide catalyst you put in makes a much
greater difference. Adjust the amount of catalyst as needed.
As far as filler goes, I always used fumed silica (Cabosil or =).
Wood flour is sawdust, just much finer particles. Actual sawdust is
pretty gritty and relatively hard to work. Sanding dust is finer and
would work OK if you can get enough. I've never used wheat flour,
talc or limestone, although the latter seems like it would be REALLY
hard to sand. I don't think the resin fillet adds much structural
strength to the joint; that's mostly in the glass, so I suspect the
filler isn't critical. This isn't a boat in which one would want to
cross oceans.
One tip about the Rubens Nymph (it's a great boat, BTW). I would
make the transoms and frames out of 3/4" plywood. You can cut the
frames way down since they're so much stronger, and it's MUCH easier
to put the boat together. I used drywall screws into the edges of
the 3/4" frames with no wire at all. No problem, just take the
screws out before glassing the outside. If you must stitch the
panels together, nylon cable ties are much nicer than wire.
Sorry so wordy Hope this helps.
Keith Wilson
--- In bolger@y..., blueheeler0731@y... wrote:
> . . I'm all fired up about making a Rubens Nymph. . . I have
several questions:
> Michalak mentions using luan and polyester in his taped seams
> article. I will be using the same. . .Does humidity affect curing
time with polyester?. . .
> Dave Carnell mentioned mixing pulverized limestone & resin. . . Any
horror stories with sanding? . . .
> What is the differece between sawdust and wood flour?
> What is a good gague of wire to use with stich & glue? > Any advise
would be very much appreciated.
> Eli in Maine
I have used wheat flour in a pinch but it tends to float during the curing process. Number 2 silica is just as cheap and stays suspended better.
Ed Sasser aboard the Bold Eagle
Somewhere in Alaska
--- "Hannes" <h.kuehtreiber@...>
the BoatBuilding.Communityhttp://boatbuilding.com/
the Internet boatbuilding, design and repair resource
Ed Sasser aboard the Bold Eagle
Somewhere in Alaska
--- "Hannes" <h.kuehtreiber@...>
> wrote:_____________________________________________________________
>I have used Wheat Flour/polyester resin goop for my first ever
>stitch&glue canoe a couple of years ago.
>It held up fine for three years, living strapped to the coachroof of my
>boat. -til it blew away :-(
>A boatbuilder warned me that, being flour, it would decompose
>quickly. It didnt, and being completely saturated with resin, I cant
>see why.
>The difference to wood flour isnt all that big, anyway!
>
>hannes
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
>- no flogging dead horses
>- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>- stay on topic and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
the BoatBuilding.Communityhttp://boatbuilding.com/
the Internet boatbuilding, design and repair resource
I have used Wheat Flour/polyester resin goop for my first ever
stitch&glue canoe a couple of years ago.
It held up fine for three years, living strapped to the coachroof of my
boat. -til it blew away :-(
A boatbuilder warned me that, being flour, it would decompose
quickly. It didnt, and being completely saturated with resin, I cant
see why.
The difference to wood flour isnt all that big, anyway!
hannes
stitch&glue canoe a couple of years ago.
It held up fine for three years, living strapped to the coachroof of my
boat. -til it blew away :-(
A boatbuilder warned me that, being flour, it would decompose
quickly. It didnt, and being completely saturated with resin, I cant
see why.
The difference to wood flour isnt all that big, anyway!
hannes
1) Lauan good, polyester bad. For not much more than the cost of the
polyester, you can get epoxy at Raka. Epoxy sticks so good to wood
that you have to be carefull about accidental stickages. Polyester
will peel off wood without special preparation. Plus, it is very
handy to have a couple of gallons of epoxy for misc repairs and
fixes.
2) Make sure your lauan is in good shape, and boil some for a couple
of hours to make sure the glue is waterproof.
3) Stay away from the limestone unless you are making armour. I used
it as a rock proof coating on the bottom of mine, but it is REALLY
hard to sand. And it sags unless you get it real thick. Use wood
flour, or wheat flour. Wood flour will cure into something hard
enough to cut yourself on, with wheat flour a close second. You can
make wood flour with sawdust and a good blender.
3) Don't use copper, or stainless, or any wire you leave in. Use
cheap steal wire, baling will work.
Tie the boat together, put thicked epoxy between the wires, let sit
till epoxy cures. Remove wire, fill and sand. Epoxy spot welding!
polyester, you can get epoxy at Raka. Epoxy sticks so good to wood
that you have to be carefull about accidental stickages. Polyester
will peel off wood without special preparation. Plus, it is very
handy to have a couple of gallons of epoxy for misc repairs and
fixes.
2) Make sure your lauan is in good shape, and boil some for a couple
of hours to make sure the glue is waterproof.
3) Stay away from the limestone unless you are making armour. I used
it as a rock proof coating on the bottom of mine, but it is REALLY
hard to sand. And it sags unless you get it real thick. Use wood
flour, or wheat flour. Wood flour will cure into something hard
enough to cut yourself on, with wheat flour a close second. You can
make wood flour with sawdust and a good blender.
3) Don't use copper, or stainless, or any wire you leave in. Use
cheap steal wire, baling will work.
Tie the boat together, put thicked epoxy between the wires, let sit
till epoxy cures. Remove wire, fill and sand. Epoxy spot welding!
--- In bolger@y..., "Michael" <sailsmanmike@w...> wrote:
> For stainless steel wire try www.wicksaircraft.com. They also
handle a
> variety of other materials.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <blueheeler0731@y...>
> To: <bolger@y...>
> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:01 PM
> Subject: [bolger] wood flour?
>
>
> > I've never built a boat before and have had the dream of doing so
> > since I was 5. This bolger group is a Godsend. Anyway,I'm all
fired
> > up about making a Rubens Nymph. I'm driving my coworkers crazy at
> > this point. I have several questions:
> > Michalak mentions using luan and polyester in his taped seams
> > article. I will be using the same.Are there any web sites that
> > describe proportions? Does humidity affect curing time with
polyester?
> > Dave Carnell mentioned mixing pulverized limestone & resin - to
make
> > a vert tough fillet. Any horror stories with sanding? The idea of
> > having a structural rib / fillet sounds like a good one.
> > What is the differece between sawdust and wood flour? Moisture
> > content? Particle size?
> > What is a good gague of wire to use with stich & glue? I bought
some
> > copper wire - and it's pretty flimsy. Baling wire is 11 - 16 I
think,
> > yet rusts if you look at it too hard. Should I just strip some
> > electrical wire? I haven't found stainless steel aircraft lock
wire.
> > What is it?
> > Any advise would be very much appreciated.
> > Eli in Maine
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
> > - no flogging dead horses
> > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
> > - stay on topic and punctuate
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
I have no personal experience. I thought about mixing a little up
and putting ir into the dishwasher for a month to see how it holds
up. My little bit of experience tells me that any powdered substance
will do since it will be encapsulated in the epoxy, but the final
properties of the epoxy will be slightly altered. I think this is at
least partly explained in the Raka Epoxy manual at:
http://www.raka.com/epoxyman.htm
Roger S
and putting ir into the dishwasher for a month to see how it holds
up. My little bit of experience tells me that any powdered substance
will do since it will be encapsulated in the epoxy, but the final
properties of the epoxy will be slightly altered. I think this is at
least partly explained in the Raka Epoxy manual at:
http://www.raka.com/epoxyman.htm
Roger S
--- In bolger@y..., BeanJrb@a... wrote:
> Wheat Flour? Does this really work? I had a little initial
trouble finding
> wood flour for my gypsy and my eagerness to start building caused
me to go
> with milled fibers and glass powder type filler (cabosil I think).
Stinky
> messy stuff. I'd love to here more about wheat flour (or barley,
or corn
> meal) as fillers. If it's a proven alternative I call dibs on "Sea
Biscuit"
> as the name of my next project.
>
>
> John Bean
> Drying off after a rainy row around the Poquonnock River
>
>
> 812 Pendleton Hill Road
> North Stonington, CT 06359
> (860) 599-1070
> Beanjrb@a...
Wheat Flour? Does this really work? I had a little initial trouble finding
wood flour for my gypsy and my eagerness to start building caused me to go
with milled fibers and glass powder type filler (cabosil I think). Stinky
messy stuff. I'd love to here more about wheat flour (or barley, or corn
meal) as fillers. If it's a proven alternative I call dibs on "Sea Biscuit"
as the name of my next project.
John Bean
Drying off after a rainy row around the Poquonnock River
812 Pendleton Hill Road
North Stonington, CT 06359
(860) 599-1070
Beanjrb@...
wood flour for my gypsy and my eagerness to start building caused me to go
with milled fibers and glass powder type filler (cabosil I think). Stinky
messy stuff. I'd love to here more about wheat flour (or barley, or corn
meal) as fillers. If it's a proven alternative I call dibs on "Sea Biscuit"
as the name of my next project.
John Bean
Drying off after a rainy row around the Poquonnock River
812 Pendleton Hill Road
North Stonington, CT 06359
(860) 599-1070
Beanjrb@...
I can tell you about sawdust and woodflour. Woodflour is as fine a
wheat flour (which some say you can use) and mixes into a very smooth
peanut buttery paste. Sawdust is too big and make a rough unusable
mess, even if you run it through a screen.
I used plastic zip ties to tie my boat together and since they are
soft, you can sand/cut them right out without any problem. Also, you
don't need pliers and they are rustproof and easy on the hands.
Roger S
wheat flour (which some say you can use) and mixes into a very smooth
peanut buttery paste. Sawdust is too big and make a rough unusable
mess, even if you run it through a screen.
I used plastic zip ties to tie my boat together and since they are
soft, you can sand/cut them right out without any problem. Also, you
don't need pliers and they are rustproof and easy on the hands.
Roger S
--- In bolger@y..., "Michael" <sailsmanmike@w...> wrote:
> For stainless steel wire try www.wicksaircraft.com. They also
handle a
> variety of other materials.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <blueheeler0731@y...>
> To: <bolger@y...>
> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:01 PM
> Subject: [bolger] wood flour?
>
>
> > I've never built a boat before and have had the dream of doing so
> > since I was 5. This bolger group is a Godsend. Anyway,I'm all
fired
> > up about making a Rubens Nymph. I'm driving my coworkers crazy at
> > this point. I have several questions:
> > Michalak mentions using luan and polyester in his taped seams
> > article. I will be using the same.Are there any web sites that
> > describe proportions? Does humidity affect curing time with
polyester?
> > Dave Carnell mentioned mixing pulverized limestone & resin - to
make
> > a vert tough fillet. Any horror stories with sanding? The idea of
> > having a structural rib / fillet sounds like a good one.
> > What is the differece between sawdust and wood flour? Moisture
> > content? Particle size?
> > What is a good gague of wire to use with stich & glue? I bought
some
> > copper wire - and it's pretty flimsy. Baling wire is 11 - 16 I
think,
> > yet rusts if you look at it too hard. Should I just strip some
> > electrical wire? I haven't found stainless steel aircraft lock
wire.
> > What is it?
> > Any advise would be very much appreciated.
> > Eli in Maine
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
> > - no flogging dead horses
> > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
> > - stay on topic and punctuate
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
For stainless steel wire try www.wicksaircraft.com. They also handle a
variety of other materials.
variety of other materials.
----- Original Message -----
From: <blueheeler0731@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:01 PM
Subject: [bolger] wood flour?
> I've never built a boat before and have had the dream of doing so
> since I was 5. This bolger group is a Godsend. Anyway,I'm all fired
> up about making a Rubens Nymph. I'm driving my coworkers crazy at
> this point. I have several questions:
> Michalak mentions using luan and polyester in his taped seams
> article. I will be using the same.Are there any web sites that
> describe proportions? Does humidity affect curing time with polyester?
> Dave Carnell mentioned mixing pulverized limestone & resin - to make
> a vert tough fillet. Any horror stories with sanding? The idea of
> having a structural rib / fillet sounds like a good one.
> What is the differece between sawdust and wood flour? Moisture
> content? Particle size?
> What is a good gague of wire to use with stich & glue? I bought some
> copper wire - and it's pretty flimsy. Baling wire is 11 - 16 I think,
> yet rusts if you look at it too hard. Should I just strip some
> electrical wire? I haven't found stainless steel aircraft lock wire.
> What is it?
> Any advise would be very much appreciated.
> Eli in Maine
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
> - no flogging dead horses
> - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
> - stay on topic and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Eli:
If you are going to use polyester, why not just use Bondo for fillets? That
will save you having to scare up wood flour, which needs to be fine, like
wheat flour (which, by the way, will work too). If using Bondo, smooth it
with a scraper, just after it starts to harden.
I happen to like baling wire. It is about the right size, it is annealed,
and it is easy to find. Just use it before it gets rusty.
Chuck
If you are going to use polyester, why not just use Bondo for fillets? That
will save you having to scare up wood flour, which needs to be fine, like
wheat flour (which, by the way, will work too). If using Bondo, smooth it
with a scraper, just after it starts to harden.
I happen to like baling wire. It is about the right size, it is annealed,
and it is easy to find. Just use it before it gets rusty.
Chuck
>
> I've never built a boat before and have had the dream of doing so
> since I was 5. This bolger group is a Godsend. Anyway,I'm all fired
> up about making a Rubens Nymph. I'm driving my coworkers crazy at
> this point. I have several questions:
> Michalak mentions using luan and polyester in his taped seams
> article. I will be using the same.Are there any web sites that
> describe proportions? Does humidity affect curing time with polyester?
> Dave Carnell mentioned mixing pulverized limestone & resin - to make
> a vert tough fillet. Any horror stories with sanding? The idea of
> having a structural rib / fillet sounds like a good one.
> What is the differece between sawdust and wood flour? Moisture
> content? Particle size?
> What is a good gague of wire to use with stich & glue? I bought some
> copper wire - and it's pretty flimsy. Baling wire is 11 - 16 I think,
> yet rusts if you look at it too hard. Should I just strip some
> electrical wire? I haven't found stainless steel aircraft lock wire.
> What is it?
> Any advise would be very much appreciated.
> Eli in Maine
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
> - no flogging dead horses
> - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
> - stay on topic and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
I've never built a boat before and have had the dream of doing so
since I was 5. This bolger group is a Godsend. Anyway,I'm all fired
up about making a Rubens Nymph. I'm driving my coworkers crazy at
this point. I have several questions:
Michalak mentions using luan and polyester in his taped seams
article. I will be using the same.Are there any web sites that
describe proportions? Does humidity affect curing time with polyester?
Dave Carnell mentioned mixing pulverized limestone & resin - to make
a vert tough fillet. Any horror stories with sanding? The idea of
having a structural rib / fillet sounds like a good one.
What is the differece between sawdust and wood flour? Moisture
content? Particle size?
What is a good gague of wire to use with stich & glue? I bought some
copper wire - and it's pretty flimsy. Baling wire is 11 - 16 I think,
yet rusts if you look at it too hard. Should I just strip some
electrical wire? I haven't found stainless steel aircraft lock wire.
What is it?
Any advise would be very much appreciated.
Eli in Maine
since I was 5. This bolger group is a Godsend. Anyway,I'm all fired
up about making a Rubens Nymph. I'm driving my coworkers crazy at
this point. I have several questions:
Michalak mentions using luan and polyester in his taped seams
article. I will be using the same.Are there any web sites that
describe proportions? Does humidity affect curing time with polyester?
Dave Carnell mentioned mixing pulverized limestone & resin - to make
a vert tough fillet. Any horror stories with sanding? The idea of
having a structural rib / fillet sounds like a good one.
What is the differece between sawdust and wood flour? Moisture
content? Particle size?
What is a good gague of wire to use with stich & glue? I bought some
copper wire - and it's pretty flimsy. Baling wire is 11 - 16 I think,
yet rusts if you look at it too hard. Should I just strip some
electrical wire? I haven't found stainless steel aircraft lock wire.
What is it?
Any advise would be very much appreciated.
Eli in Maine