Re: Now that there are real Micros here, a rudder question

Vance and Pippo,
Thank you for pointing me in the right direction to the files!
This is the approach that I have chosen with a couple of small
modifictions.

1. I have ordered a 14" piece of 2"X 1/4" bronze plate to be rabbeted
into the keel (full width side to side) and will tap it for (6) 3" #10
silicon bronze screws set in epoxy with release agent (wax) on the
screws.

2. I was planning on using a bronze rod inserted into the post, but I
can see that a suitable bronze bolt may be a lot simpler if set in the
epoxy bushing! I may build a test piece to see how difficult this may
be.

3. a bronze washer epoxied on the rudder will serve as a bearing
surface. I still have a can of WEST graphite so will probably coat
both surfaces with it since it is easy to redo when it wears. It also
will help with the pivot.


Many thanks for the help.
David Jost
>
> Vance
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco" <pippobianco@t...>
> wrote:
> > David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the
> dreaded
> > name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files,
David, I hope you found the file where Pippo left it.

This rudder mounting mod has bolts held in the hull and rudder
with bushings turned by lath from an old bronze drive shaft.

The fancy approach is probably not needed. The bolts could be
held by the Gougeon bros method of drilling a loose fit hole for
the threaded fastening, and epoxying the fasteners, well coated
with release agent, into the holes. The Gougeons do this with
winch mountings, so it must be plenty strong, at least with a
sideways force. The release agent allows the hardware to be
threaded in and out when need be. Without the bronze bushings
fabrication becomes simple.

Vance

--- In bolger@y..., "Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco" <pippobianco@t...>
wrote:
> David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the
dreaded
> name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files,
David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the dreaded
name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files, some time ago. Click
on "Files" (left column of this page), then click on the folder
named "CSD Newsletters" (naaaah, I said it again...) and find the one
you need. Best, Pippo


--- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
> Col,
> I have been unable to find the link. Does anyone know it?
> Davdi Jost
> > Dave,
> > There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder
> > setup by Larry BUCK in CSD's "Common Sense News" volume 12 issue
5 on
> > page 3. I don't have the link on hand but its not hard to find.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Col Mooney
> >
> >
> >
Col,
I have been unable to find the link. Does anyone know it?
Davdi Jost
> Dave,
> There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder
> setup by Larry BUCK in CSD's "Common Sense News" volume 12 issue 5 on
> page 3. I don't have the link on hand but its not hard to find.
>
> Regards,
>
> Col Mooney
>
>
>
My Oldshoe has a rudder that is very similar to Micro's. I built it
prety much according to plan except that I wrapped the hardwood
rudder stock in two layers of glass tape set in epoxy. I used white
oak for the bottom bearing and triple 1/4 ply for the top bearing.
The bottom bearing is attached to the keel using big stainless lug
screws. I coated all bearing surfaces with expoxy mixed with
powdered graphite. Also, I pretreated all of the rudder and keel ply
and framing with wood preservative and then painted with bottom paint
inside and out. The Oldshoe has endplates on the rudder. I used
white oak for these as well.

It seems plenty strong. I am planning to keep the boat in the water
and so will trailer it only once or twice a year. I let you know how
it works out. I hope to launch July 4th.

Regards

Andy Farquhar
--

Dave,
There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder
setup by Larry BUCK in CSD's "Common Sense News" volume 12 issue 5 on
page 3. I don't have the link on hand but its not hard to find.

Regards,

Col Mooney



- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
> Peter,
>
> thanks for the prompt reply, we obviously have rain of biblical
> proportions here now, that is why I am here and not under "Firefly".
> I have used G+P on other boats with underslung rudders and
have
> just hung one of them upside down to lock the assembly in the
> vertical plane. since this is not a removeable rudder, this is not
a
> problem. You just unscrew the pintles from the blade to remove the
> rudder and blade.
> the rudder will be at least 3/4" further aft due to the g+P
> clearance needed so the hole may not be that big a deal. This may
> create too much turbulence between the rudder and keel. I had
> forgotten about the piece at the top! that would need to be worked
> on as well or eliminated, I am not so sure I want to do that. In
all
> of my dreams about tiller arrangements, that piece is there helping
> to support the tiller as I am leaning on it.
> I guess I will try Bolger's arrangement and just soak
> everything in epoxy to eliminate as much of the rot problem as is
> possible. There are enough sources of white oak around that I am
> sure I can get a real nice piece to carve out for this function. I
> don't think that fir is suitable (strenght issues) and plywood may
be
> difficult to fasten to the keel as it would be edge fastened.
>
> > new arc;so long as the hole is opened further aft there is no
> problem
> > since this is above the static waterline and only floods the
> > free-flooding well.Going forward will breach the watertight
> integrity
> > so essential to us little guys.You may also wish to consider how
> you
> > will deal with the hole in the top bracket(the piece attached to
> the
> > cocpit deck,just bellow the tiller clamp on the plans),unless you
> > intend on eliminating this piece altogther.
> > Sounds like alot of fun David!Anyway,that is my take on
> > your situation.Hopefully,some good ideas will be forthcoming soon
> from
> > those better experienced with gudgeons and pintles.
> > And fear not,the day a national crisis arrives, me,the pesky
> crew
> > and the boat are going to slip away under the cover of darkness
and
> > sneak across the border into the land of the free!Yup....Ontario
> here
> > we come!
> > Continued success!
> > Sincerely,
> > Peter Lenihan,glad to have a personal ark in case this rainfall
> takes
> > on biblical proportions,from the shores of the
> St.Lawrence.........
> >
> > --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
> > > this is exciting to have yet another Micro in the group. Here
is
> my
> > > question of the day to all Micro builders past and present.
> > >
> > > Has anyone used standard pintle and gudgeons to hang their
> rudder?
> > I
> > > have zero confidence in the wooden cleats through a hole in the
> > > rudder bottom and then screwed onto the keel. That seems too
> > > susceptible to breakage from either trailer transit, or rot. I
> know
> > > that Peter did a first class job with his rudder, and is
probably
> > the
> > > most durable Micro rudder in existance. (I suspect the
Canadian
> > Navy
> > > may commission his ship in the event of a National crisis).
> > > What would be the effect of using standard gudgeons and
> pintles
> > > and reshaping the hole in the bottom through which the rudder
> passes
> > > in order to accomodate the oval arc it will travel in? I hope
to
> > > mount my rudder next weekend, family willing.
> > >
> > > David Jost
> > > Boston, MA
Hello John,
I apologize for not being more specific in stating which"John".My
lazy thinking just presumed we all would recognize you by boat name
alone since you were the first to post a lovely picture of your MICRO
in the files section of the group and also as the builder of a Bolger
ANTISPRAY of which you wrote about in previous postings.
And speaking about ANTISPRAY,how goes your wonderful live-a-board
project?Any pictures?
Thanks for taking the time to clarify your MICRO rudder
installation.I am sure David(Jost) and others in rudder quandary will
appreciate both it and its proven longevity!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan


--- In bolger@y..., jmcdan@h... wrote:
>
>
> I'm the "John" (don't bother, after 53 years, I've heard ALL
> the "John" jokes) referred to in the following:
>
> > In fact Johns Micro BANTY(see files)
> > used this set up and he once wrote about its success.
>
> A little clarification is in order. BANTY's upper rudder bearing
> arrangement is virtually identical to the plans.
>
> Following experience with another MICRO built per plans, I oversized
> both the rudder stock and lower rudder bearing. The rudder stock is
> 2.5 inch diameter white oak. The lower rudder bearing is white oak
> also and is constructed from 2" stock. The upper rudder bear is 3/4
> inch white oak.
>
> BANTY's rudder is still going strong after 10 years of trailer
> sailing.
>
> John McDaniel
Thanks John and Greg,

I would love to see some pictures of the rudder arrangements. Do
either of you have a polaroid camera and a scanner?
I can't quite picture how the gate hinge would work. It would
still seem to me to require a little modification of the hole in the
bottom abaft frame D, and a modification to the upper bearing since
the rudder will now turn in a small arc as opposed to rotating around
its axis.
The heavy duty white oak idea is interesting to me since we have
plenty of it around, this would probably be best for a trailer
boat. My boat will spend most of its life at a mooring in salt water
so I am real concerned about marine borers and other nasties.
To answer Greg's concern as to how the rudder would spin around
the central axis with the steel plate idea, the plate would extend
aft past the keel for at least 2" so that the hole drilled in the
plate would line up with the pin extending from the center of the
rudder. The assemble could then be locked down with a lock nut or
nut/cotter pin arrangement.

David Jost
"in need of an ark"



> Following experience with another MICRO built per plans, I
oversized
> both the rudder stock and lower rudder bearing. The rudder stock is
> 2.5 inch diameter white oak. The lower rudder bearing is white oak
> also and is constructed from 2" stock. The upper rudder bear is
3/4
> inch white oak.
>
> BANTY's rudder is still going strong after 10 years of trailer
> sailing.
>
> John McDaniel
I'm the "John" (don't bother, after 53 years, I've heard ALL
the "John" jokes) referred to in the following:

> In fact Johns Micro BANTY(see files)
> used this set up and he once wrote about its success.

A little clarification is in order. BANTY's upper rudder bearing
arrangement is virtually identical to the plans.

Following experience with another MICRO built per plans, I oversized
both the rudder stock and lower rudder bearing. The rudder stock is
2.5 inch diameter white oak. The lower rudder bearing is white oak
also and is constructed from 2" stock. The upper rudder bear is 3/4
inch white oak.

BANTY's rudder is still going strong after 10 years of trailer
sailing.

John McDaniel
I don't see how the shaft could turn on centerline with this arrangement.

Anyway, I used an ordinary, heavy-duty, steel gate pivot, which like about
a 5/8" x 4" lag screw with a knobby end and vertical pin, galvanised. Hard
to describe, but you've seen them before...

Gregg

At 01:49 PM 6/2/01 -0000, you wrote:
>this is exciting to have yet another Micro in the group. Here is my
>question of the day to all Micro builders past and present.
>
>Has anyone used standard pintle and gudgeons to hang their rudder? I
>have zero confidence in the wooden cleats through a hole in the
>rudder bottom and then screwed onto the keel. That seems too
>susceptible to breakage from either trailer transit, or rot. I know
>that Peter did a first class job with his rudder, and is probably the
>most durable Micro rudder in existance. (I suspect the Canadian Navy
>may commission his ship in the event of a National crisis).
> What would be the effect of using standard gudgeons and pintles
>and reshaping the hole in the bottom through which the rudder passes
>in order to accomodate the oval arc it will travel in? I hope to
>mount my rudder next weekend, family willing.
>
>David Jost
> Boston, MA
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
>- no flogging dead horses
>- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>- stay on topic and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
--- In bolger@y..., ellengaest@b... wrote:
I have in my possession about 24 3/8" bronze rods that we have used
as plant stakes in the garden for about 50 years! doh!

If I can find a 12" piece of bronze 1/4" bronze plate to match, that
is the way to go. I had thought about this before and had laminated
up a 3/4" piece of marine ply but abandoned the thought when I
realized that the piece would be the first to hit some immobile
submerged object. The answer is obviously to cut a rabbet into the
keel into which this piece (now bronze) will sit. a couple of
washers and a locknut and we are ready to rumble.

Now to find a source for a small amount of 1/4" plate.

Thanks Peter, you have confirmed my suspicions about this
technique. I am going to glass the keel tommorrow afternoon, I just
won't get too fussy over the last 12" of keel base.

Happy sailing,
David Jost

> locknut just tight enough to remove any vertical movement of the
> rudder.Oh yes,do not forget to drill a half dozen holes,in the flat
> bar,sized to take say a number 10 or 12 screw.This is what will
secure
> the plate to the bottom of your keel.Hopefully,there is enough
solid
> wood there to permit this in your case.And do try to keep the
exposed
> threads of the above mentioned rod epoxy free while you are driving
it
> home in its hole.
> Anyway,just a thought in case you still want to try
a"beefer"set
> up for your rudder.Either way,let us know your final choice so we
> won't have to go diving under FIREFLY at the LAKE CHAMPLAIN BOLGER
> MESSABOUT to find out the answer ;-)
> Sincerely,
> Peter Lenihan,wishing he had the tools and know how to send
drawings
> through cyber space instead of words to confuse innocent
builders,on
> the shores of the rainy,+12C.,St.Lawrence..........
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
> > Peter,
> >
> > thanks for the prompt reply, we obviously have rain of
biblical
> > proportions here now, that is why I am here and not
under "Firefly".
> > I have used G+P on other boats with underslung rudders and
have
> > just hung one of them upside down to lock the assembly in the
> > vertical plane. since this is not a removeable rudder, this is
not
> a
> > problem. You just unscrew the pintles from the blade to remove
the
> > rudder and blade.
> > the rudder will be at least 3/4" further aft due to the g+P
> > clearance needed so the hole may not be that big a deal. This
may
> > create too much turbulence between the rudder and keel.
David,
In my daftiness,it never occured to me that you could indeed
simply reverse or hang upside down one of the pintles!Great!!
As to the resulting gap;how about using a piece of tire inner
tube,spit length wise,to create a soft flexible shield thus preventing
the rudder from ventilating?
Or how about this:get yourself a lenght of s/s threaded rod about 3/8
to 1/2 inches in diameter by about a foot long.Drill a slightly
smaller diameter hole up into the base of your rudder stock,make a
slury of epoxy and drive the rod into this hole leaving about an inch
to an inch and a half exposed.Then,find yourself a short lenght of s/s
flat bar of about 1/4" X width of your keel X 12".After cutting out
about a 10" by 1/4" rabbit in the aft end of the base of the keel into
which will sit this piece of flat bar,carefully drill a hole slightly
larger then your size of rod through it.Make sure this hole is
properly centered/aligned so as to allow your rudder to hang perfectly
vertical.A couple of nylon washers between this bottom plate and your
rudder will see things turning smoothly.Snug up from the bottom with a
locknut just tight enough to remove any vertical movement of the
rudder.Oh yes,do not forget to drill a half dozen holes,in the flat
bar,sized to take say a number 10 or 12 screw.This is what will secure
the plate to the bottom of your keel.Hopefully,there is enough solid
wood there to permit this in your case.And do try to keep the exposed
threads of the above mentioned rod epoxy free while you are driving it
home in its hole.
Anyway,just a thought in case you still want to try a"beefer"set
up for your rudder.Either way,let us know your final choice so we
won't have to go diving under FIREFLY at the LAKE CHAMPLAIN BOLGER
MESSABOUT to find out the answer ;-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,wishing he had the tools and know how to send drawings
through cyber space instead of words to confuse innocent builders,on
the shores of the rainy,+12C.,St.Lawrence..........


--- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
> Peter,
>
> thanks for the prompt reply, we obviously have rain of biblical
> proportions here now, that is why I am here and not under "Firefly".
> I have used G+P on other boats with underslung rudders and have
> just hung one of them upside down to lock the assembly in the
> vertical plane. since this is not a removeable rudder, this is not
a
> problem. You just unscrew the pintles from the blade to remove the
> rudder and blade.
> the rudder will be at least 3/4" further aft due to the g+P
> clearance needed so the hole may not be that big a deal. This may
> create too much turbulence between the rudder and keel.
Peter,

thanks for the prompt reply, we obviously have rain of biblical
proportions here now, that is why I am here and not under "Firefly".
I have used G+P on other boats with underslung rudders and have
just hung one of them upside down to lock the assembly in the
vertical plane. since this is not a removeable rudder, this is not a
problem. You just unscrew the pintles from the blade to remove the
rudder and blade.
the rudder will be at least 3/4" further aft due to the g+P
clearance needed so the hole may not be that big a deal. This may
create too much turbulence between the rudder and keel. I had
forgotten about the piece at the top! that would need to be worked
on as well or eliminated, I am not so sure I want to do that. In all
of my dreams about tiller arrangements, that piece is there helping
to support the tiller as I am leaning on it.
I guess I will try Bolger's arrangement and just soak
everything in epoxy to eliminate as much of the rot problem as is
possible. There are enough sources of white oak around that I am
sure I can get a real nice piece to carve out for this function. I
don't think that fir is suitable (strenght issues) and plywood may be
difficult to fasten to the keel as it would be edge fastened.

> new arc;so long as the hole is opened further aft there is no
problem
> since this is above the static waterline and only floods the
> free-flooding well.Going forward will breach the watertight
integrity
> so essential to us little guys.You may also wish to consider how
you
> will deal with the hole in the top bracket(the piece attached to
the
> cocpit deck,just bellow the tiller clamp on the plans),unless you
> intend on eliminating this piece altogther.
> Sounds like alot of fun David!Anyway,that is my take on
> your situation.Hopefully,some good ideas will be forthcoming soon
from
> those better experienced with gudgeons and pintles.
> And fear not,the day a national crisis arrives, me,the pesky
crew
> and the boat are going to slip away under the cover of darkness and
> sneak across the border into the land of the free!Yup....Ontario
here
> we come!
> Continued success!
> Sincerely,
> Peter Lenihan,glad to have a personal ark in case this rainfall
takes
> on biblical proportions,from the shores of the
St.Lawrence.........
>
> --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
> > this is exciting to have yet another Micro in the group. Here is
my
> > question of the day to all Micro builders past and present.
> >
> > Has anyone used standard pintle and gudgeons to hang their
rudder?
> I
> > have zero confidence in the wooden cleats through a hole in the
> > rudder bottom and then screwed onto the keel. That seems too
> > susceptible to breakage from either trailer transit, or rot. I
know
> > that Peter did a first class job with his rudder, and is probably
> the
> > most durable Micro rudder in existance. (I suspect the Canadian
> Navy
> > may commission his ship in the event of a National crisis).
> > What would be the effect of using standard gudgeons and
pintles
> > and reshaping the hole in the bottom through which the rudder
passes
> > in order to accomodate the oval arc it will travel in? I hope to
> > mount my rudder next weekend, family willing.
> >
> > David Jost
> > Boston, MA
Goodmorning David,
I have read very few reports about the rudder arrangement
suggested by Phil ever failing.In fact Johns Micro BANTY(see files)
used this set up and he once wrote about its success.
Your desire to go the gudgeon and pintle route does appear to pose
one wee problem,namely;vertical rudder drift.The reason I say this has
to do with the method of the G&P installation which requires the
rudder to be raised a couple of inches before the gudgeon can either
clear the pintle for removal or placement.The clearance between the
top of the rudder and the bottom of the boat is not enough to allow
this amount of travel and I believe that to help protect the rudder
from accidental bottom hits,it should remain shallower then the keel
deadwood ahead of it.If you modify your rudder to allow enough
clearance on the top of the blade,you may at the same time reduce some
of the"end-plate" effect created by having the rudder swing through an
arc close to the hull bottom(my blade goes from a scant 3/8" clearance
all the way to zero when hard over).Also,if you go the G&P route,you
must have some way of ensuring the rudder does not get lifted off the
pintles accidentally or else someone will have to dive overboard to
re-install it.Furthermore,if no method is used to hold the rudder
down,then I suspect that its slightly positive buoyancy will see it
forever floating upwards against the hull bottom and in time wearing
either a nice groove in the bottom,a worn out top edge to your rudder
or both.This in turn will lead to all sorts of grief from
de-lamination to hemorrhoids.
As to the re-shaping of the hole in the bottom to accomodate the
new arc;so long as the hole is opened further aft there is no problem
since this is above the static waterline and only floods the
free-flooding well.Going forward will breach the watertight integrity
so essential to us little guys.You may also wish to consider how you
will deal with the hole in the top bracket(the piece attached to the
cocpit deck,just bellow the tiller clamp on the plans),unless you
intend on eliminating this piece altogther.
Sounds like alot of fun David!Anyway,that is my take on
your situation.Hopefully,some good ideas will be forthcoming soon from
those better experienced with gudgeons and pintles.
And fear not,the day a national crisis arrives, me,the pesky crew
and the boat are going to slip away under the cover of darkness and
sneak across the border into the land of the free!Yup....Ontario here
we come!
Continued success!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,glad to have a personal ark in case this rainfall takes
on biblical proportions,from the shores of the St.Lawrence.........

--- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
> this is exciting to have yet another Micro in the group. Here is my
> question of the day to all Micro builders past and present.
>
> Has anyone used standard pintle and gudgeons to hang their rudder?
I
> have zero confidence in the wooden cleats through a hole in the
> rudder bottom and then screwed onto the keel. That seems too
> susceptible to breakage from either trailer transit, or rot. I know
> that Peter did a first class job with his rudder, and is probably
the
> most durable Micro rudder in existance. (I suspect the Canadian
Navy
> may commission his ship in the event of a National crisis).
> What would be the effect of using standard gudgeons and pintles
> and reshaping the hole in the bottom through which the rudder passes
> in order to accomodate the oval arc it will travel in? I hope to
> mount my rudder next weekend, family willing.
>
> David Jost
> Boston, MA
this is exciting to have yet another Micro in the group. Here is my
question of the day to all Micro builders past and present.

Has anyone used standard pintle and gudgeons to hang their rudder? I
have zero confidence in the wooden cleats through a hole in the
rudder bottom and then screwed onto the keel. That seems too
susceptible to breakage from either trailer transit, or rot. I know
that Peter did a first class job with his rudder, and is probably the
most durable Micro rudder in existance. (I suspect the Canadian Navy
may commission his ship in the event of a National crisis).
What would be the effect of using standard gudgeons and pintles
and reshaping the hole in the bottom through which the rudder passes
in order to accomodate the oval arc it will travel in? I hope to
mount my rudder next weekend, family willing.

David Jost
Boston, MA