Re: [bolger] Re: Alternate rig for Light Schooner?
In a message dated 06/20/2001 1:<BR25:<BR41 PM
Eastern Daylight ,stephen@...writes:
thing, but is frequently necessary for leeboard boats.
The H&H *can* have greatest breadth wherever the designer thought it best
because it has a daggerboard (centerboard, keel, etc.).
If you can make a periauger or other rig with the centers in the right place,
the LS would be a great boat for it. Think of a Sea Pearl :-)
Cheers/carron
Eastern Daylight ,stephen@...writes:
> In comparing the hull to other instant boats (Surf, Windsprint, etc.)Greatest breadth of beam at or near amidships is *not* necessarily a good
> I've noticed that the H&H Schooner has her widest beam aft of
> midships. Any advantage to that, other than adding extra bouyancy
> aft for the sailor and the proposed outboard?
thing, but is frequently necessary for leeboard boats.
The H&H *can* have greatest breadth wherever the designer thought it best
because it has a daggerboard (centerboard, keel, etc.).
If you can make a periauger or other rig with the centers in the right place,
the LS would be a great boat for it. Think of a Sea Pearl :-)
Cheers/carron
> One concern I have about the H&H Schooner is moving that heavyI agree this takes a lot of the fun out of it.
> dagger-keel (150 lbs, as I recall).
> I've noticed that the H&H Schooner has her widest beam aft ofDon't know. The fore/aft position of the rig may also be a factor.
> midships. Any advantage to that, other than adding extra bouyancy
> aft for the sailor and the proposed outboard?
PHV
Peter: I've looked at the H&H Schooner, and it's certainly an
option, though what I have in mind is not necessary a schooner so
much as a two-masted boat with a salty-looking rig that can be safely
single-handed, but would also be comfortable sailing with at least
1 crew.
One concern I have about the H&H Schooner is moving that heavy
dagger-keel (150 lbs, as I recall). In BWAOM, Bolger talks
about two people carrying it from the car to the boat, but that
presumes two pairs of hands. Perhaps it could be modified to stay
slotted, but in the up position, while on the trailer?
In comparing the hull to other instant boats (Surf, Windsprint, etc.)
I've noticed that the H&H Schooner has her widest beam aft of
midships. Any advantage to that, other than adding extra bouyancy
aft for the sailor and the proposed outboard?
Stephen
option, though what I have in mind is not necessary a schooner so
much as a two-masted boat with a salty-looking rig that can be safely
single-handed, but would also be comfortable sailing with at least
1 crew.
One concern I have about the H&H Schooner is moving that heavy
dagger-keel (150 lbs, as I recall). In BWAOM, Bolger talks
about two people carrying it from the car to the boat, but that
presumes two pairs of hands. Perhaps it could be modified to stay
slotted, but in the up position, while on the trailer?
In comparing the hull to other instant boats (Surf, Windsprint, etc.)
I've noticed that the H&H Schooner has her widest beam aft of
midships. Any advantage to that, other than adding extra bouyancy
aft for the sailor and the proposed outboard?
Stephen
--- In bolger@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote:
> > from everything I've read, single-handing LS is out of the
question.
>
> As food for thought, consider the His'n'Her Schooner, aka Single-
handed Schooner. It is a statement about what the designer thinks
would be required to make a boat of this general size and type
suitable for the solo sailor. The question of stability is addressed
by a daggerkeel of considerable weight. The double-ended shape is
less troubled by being sailed at a large angle of heel. I'd want a
cover on the midship's cargo hold that held the water back at least a
little.
In gusty winds, safety in a boat like the LS relies on having hand
at every sheet to free the sheets in an instant. 2 hands vs. 3
sheets + 1 tiller = risk.
>
> Peter
>Greg: Thanks for your comments. Your scooner is beautiful, and theIt's amazing to me how nicely balance the rig is around that board!
>pictures are inspiring.
>
>After looking at the photos and the lines again, I noticed something
>I hadn't really focussed on before. Bolger has carefully placed LS's
>daggerboard in a bridgedeck amidships between two open cockpits.
>Thus, moving the board to compensate for changes in the rig would be
>more complicated than in some of Bolger's other boats.
However, I think you could do a lot of messing around with the rig
without moving it.
On Bolger's suggestion, I sail under fore alone when I don't want all
that extra canvas (and strings). She handles nicely, with no
excessive preasure needed on the tiller to keep her from falling off.
Of course, if you let go of the tiller completely, she'll fall off in
a split second, and the fore alone is still more than enough to take
her over!
I think if you build the hull and foils to plan, you'll be able to
mess about with the rig for a long, long time before you need to
start thinking about moving the dagger board. Just add or subtract
canvas from either side of the mast as needed ;-) I've got a big old
jib I'm thinking of trying as a staysail in place of the fore with
what I think is called a fisherman's topsail flying between the main
and the fore mast!
YIBB,
David
CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
Greg: Thanks for your comments. Your scooner is beautiful, and the
pictures are inspiring.
After looking at the photos and the lines again, I noticed something
I hadn't really focussed on before. Bolger has carefully placed LS's
daggerboard in a bridgedeck amidships between two open cockpits.
Thus, moving the board to compensate for changes in the rig would be
more complicated than in some of Bolger's other boats.
pictures are inspiring.
After looking at the photos and the lines again, I noticed something
I hadn't really focussed on before. Bolger has carefully placed LS's
daggerboard in a bridgedeck amidships between two open cockpits.
Thus, moving the board to compensate for changes in the rig would be
more complicated than in some of Bolger's other boats.
--- In bolger@y..., GHC <ghartc@p...> wrote:
> Stephen(?):
>
> I would think the Light Schooner would be a good platform for
experimenting with sail rigs.
>
> You're right, it's not so good for singlehanding in a breeze, but I
don't see the rig improving that much. The gaffs already have a
pretty low center of effort; it's just a big, overcanvassed skiff.
Mine probably weighs 400 pounds, with about 300 sq.ft., something's
(somebody's!) got to hold it up. But, the present rig is also pretty
adaptable; we've sailed under jib and main, and my main has a
good-sized reef, which ought to be enough to get her under control
for singlehanding.
>
> I would pay a lot more attention to rescue - I added a lot more
floatation to give you a better chance of righting and bailing. (See
my scooner link on carlsondesign.com).
>
> However, if you had a rigging plan that would allow jiffy reefing
or quicker easing, it might be useful.
>
> Gregg Carlson
>In gusty winds, safety in a boat like the LS relies on having hand atI think if you solo the LS under jib, fore, and main it's only a
>every sheet to free the sheets in an instant. 2 hands vs. 3 sheets +
>1 tiller = risk.
matter of time before you go over. But as every Laser sailor know,
just because a boat goes over easy, doen't mean it ain't a good
single handed boat!
In the case of the LS, Greg's right on the money: recovery is the key
to having fun with her solo. I've yet to be able to keep her upside
down; those big wood masts want to bring her back up to 90 degrees,
and she's easy to right from there. So, plenty of floatation so you
can bail her out even with whitecaps breaking over the weather rail,
make sure your foils aren't going to slide out and float away, where
enough neoprene for the conditions, and make sure you don't throw
your bailing bucket over the side.
Also, early indications hint that the boat is *very* controllable
with the jib and main made off as long as your ready to let the for
run free. I just rigged the main through a stolen hobie cam cleat and
sailed with the tiller in one hand and the fore sheet in the other
(jib made off as usual.)
Over all I had much, much more control of the boat. Conditions were
10-12 (more than enough to send her over) and I never felt I was
anywhere near the point of no return. With the main hard, she rounds
up crisply when the fore is slacked, taking wind off the entire rig.
Once I got dial in, I was actually heading off a little with the
tiller to compensate for the slacked fore and just cruising right
along.
Though it didn't happen, I can easily imaging a similar strategy
might backfire off the wind. I could see her plowing along and then
slacking the fore on a gust only to have her round up slightly and
then broach. Further investigation is called for ;-)
Lastly, she's best with full complement. I got out with four crewmen
to yell at. One hand for the tiller and one to cup around my mouth
while I barked orders. It was grand!
YIBB,
David
CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
>Also, in puffy weather, pull the daggerboard up about halfway.No no no, bad idea.
The board doesn't have to be up very far before it gets in the way of
the fore boom.
Take it from one who found out the hard way ;-)
-D
CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
> from everything I've read, single-handing LS is out of thequestion.
As food for thought, consider the His'n'Her Schooner, aka Single-
handed Schooner. It is a statement about what the designer thinks
would be required to make a boat of this general size and type
suitable for the solo sailor. The question of stability is addressed
by a daggerkeel of considerable weight. The double-ended shape is
less troubled by being sailed at a large angle of heel. I'd want a
cover on the midship's cargo hold that held the water back at least a
little.
In gusty winds, safety in a boat like the LS relies on having hand at
every sheet to free the sheets in an instant. 2 hands vs. 3 sheets +
1 tiller = risk.
Peter
You could probably singlehand the schooner if lead all the sheets
back to the tiller. You keep your hand on the forsail sheet, and
close to the main sheet. In a puff, head up to feather all sails. If
that isn't enough, slack the forsail, which should round you up.
Also, in puffy weather, pull the daggerboard up about halfway.
Saw a picture of someone with a light schooner that had a tall,
stayed, cutter rig. I imagine he had all kinds of problems keeping it
upright, with the higer cg and ce.
back to the tiller. You keep your hand on the forsail sheet, and
close to the main sheet. In a puff, head up to feather all sails. If
that isn't enough, slack the forsail, which should round you up.
Also, in puffy weather, pull the daggerboard up about halfway.
Saw a picture of someone with a light schooner that had a tall,
stayed, cutter rig. I imagine he had all kinds of problems keeping it
upright, with the higer cg and ce.
--- In bolger@y..., stephen@p... wrote:
> Has anyone built, seen, or thought about building a "Light
Schooner"
> with a different rig?
>
> I've been thinking about this for several months after seeing lines
> and photos of Pete Culler's "Sharptowne Barge." She's a long,
narrow
> flat-bottomed skiff about the same size as the LS, but the rig
Culler
> drew for her is a jib-headed ketch, with a tall four-sided
spritsail
> forward and a Chesapeake-style leg-o-mutton aft. And I've been
> wondering how a rig like this might do on the LS hull.
>
> Of course, this is heresy (so burn me at the stake) and she'd no
> longer be a "schooner," but here's the thing: from everything I've
> read, single-handing LS is out of the question. Culler's
> book "Skiffs and Schooners," on the other hand, has photos of the
> Sharptowne Barge being sailed singlehanded.
Stephen(?):
I would think the Light Schooner would be a good platform for experimenting
with sail rigs.
You're right, it's not so good for singlehanding in a breeze, but I don't
see the rig improving that much. The gaffs already have a pretty low
center of effort; it's just a big, overcanvassed skiff. Mine probably
weighs 400 pounds, with about 300 sq.ft., something's (somebody's!) got to
hold it up. But, the present rig is also pretty adaptable; we've sailed
under jib and main, and my main has a good-sized reef, which ought to be
enough to get her under control for singlehanding.
I would pay a lot more attention to rescue - I added a lot more floatation
to give you a better chance of righting and bailing. (See my scooner link
on carlsondesign.com).
However, if you had a rigging plan that would allow jiffy reefing or
quicker easing, it might be useful.
Gregg Carlson
At 09:08 PM 6/18/2001 -0000, you wrote:
I would think the Light Schooner would be a good platform for experimenting
with sail rigs.
You're right, it's not so good for singlehanding in a breeze, but I don't
see the rig improving that much. The gaffs already have a pretty low
center of effort; it's just a big, overcanvassed skiff. Mine probably
weighs 400 pounds, with about 300 sq.ft., something's (somebody's!) got to
hold it up. But, the present rig is also pretty adaptable; we've sailed
under jib and main, and my main has a good-sized reef, which ought to be
enough to get her under control for singlehanding.
I would pay a lot more attention to rescue - I added a lot more floatation
to give you a better chance of righting and bailing. (See my scooner link
on carlsondesign.com).
However, if you had a rigging plan that would allow jiffy reefing or
quicker easing, it might be useful.
Gregg Carlson
At 09:08 PM 6/18/2001 -0000, you wrote:
>Has anyone built, seen, or thought about building a "Light Schooner"01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>with a different rig?
>
>I've been thinking about this for several months after seeing lines
>and photos of Pete Culler's "Sharptowne Barge." She's a long, narrow
>flat-bottomed skiff about the same size as the LS, but the rig Culler
>drew for her is a jib-headed ketch, with a tall four-sided spritsail
>forward and a Chesapeake-style leg-o-mutton aft. And I've been
>wondering how a rig like this might do on the LS hull.
>
>Of course, this is heresy (so burn me at the stake) and she'd no
>longer be a "schooner," but here's the thing: from everything I've
>read, single-handing LS is out of the question. Culler's
>book "Skiffs and Schooners," on the other hand, has photos of the
>Sharptowne Barge being sailed singlehanded.
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
>- no flogging dead horses
>- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>- stay on topic and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Has anyone built, seen, or thought about building a "Light Schooner"
with a different rig?
I've been thinking about this for several months after seeing lines
and photos of Pete Culler's "Sharptowne Barge." She's a long, narrow
flat-bottomed skiff about the same size as the LS, but the rig Culler
drew for her is a jib-headed ketch, with a tall four-sided spritsail
forward and a Chesapeake-style leg-o-mutton aft. And I've been
wondering how a rig like this might do on the LS hull.
Of course, this is heresy (so burn me at the stake) and she'd no
longer be a "schooner," but here's the thing: from everything I've
read, single-handing LS is out of the question. Culler's
book "Skiffs and Schooners," on the other hand, has photos of the
Sharptowne Barge being sailed singlehanded.
with a different rig?
I've been thinking about this for several months after seeing lines
and photos of Pete Culler's "Sharptowne Barge." She's a long, narrow
flat-bottomed skiff about the same size as the LS, but the rig Culler
drew for her is a jib-headed ketch, with a tall four-sided spritsail
forward and a Chesapeake-style leg-o-mutton aft. And I've been
wondering how a rig like this might do on the LS hull.
Of course, this is heresy (so burn me at the stake) and she'd no
longer be a "schooner," but here's the thing: from everything I've
read, single-handing LS is out of the question. Culler's
book "Skiffs and Schooners," on the other hand, has photos of the
Sharptowne Barge being sailed singlehanded.