Re: [bolger] Re: Cheap and Dirty - plywood choices:
On Sun, 1 Jul 2001cadbury@...wrote:
even the lumberyard guy called me up and told me "prepare to be
disappointed". I ended up buying some 1/2" MDO, which is OK, but doesn't
make my heart sing.
It's on the coasts (and Texas) that good ply can had at "sensible" prices.
Trucking costs.
> Here is Eastern Missouri . . .I ordered up some 3/8 MDO here in Eastern Kansas. It sucked so bad, that
> I would be plenty happy if I could find a source of 3/8" MDO.
> I had located ONE yard that carried it, but they have now
> gone out of business (probably because they stocked 3/8" MDO
> that nobody but boat builders wanted.
even the lumberyard guy called me up and told me "prepare to be
disappointed". I ended up buying some 1/2" MDO, which is OK, but doesn't
make my heart sing.
It's on the coasts (and Texas) that good ply can had at "sensible" prices.
Trucking costs.
--- In bolger@y..., "James Fuller" <james@p...> wrote:
place. A few places even have 1/2". No one carries anything
thinner than that, although they will be happy to order
a pallet-load of the stuff for me.
Max
> You might check with a sign painter in your area. They use the MDOfor
> signs and will probably knowThe sign painters use 3/4" MDO. I can get 3/4" MDO all over the
> of a source.
place. A few places even have 1/2". No one carries anything
thinner than that, although they will be happy to order
a pallet-load of the stuff for me.
Max
You might check with a sign painter in your area. They use the MDO for
signs and will probably know
of a source.
James Fuller
signs and will probably know
of a source.
James Fuller
----- Original Message -----
From: <cadbury@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 10:39 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Cheap and Dirty - plywood choices:
> Here is Eastern Missouri, I have found one place that stocks
> 1/4" fir marine, @ $48.50 / sheet. Don't bother asking about
> occume.
>
> I would be plenty happy if I could find a source of 3/8" MDO.
> I had located ONE yard that carried it, but they have now
> gone out of business (probably because they stocked 3/8" MDO
> that nobody but boat builders wanted.
>
> My first boat is BC pine exterior and it is looking more and more
> like my next boat will be, also.
>
> By the way, very little AC fir around here, and what there is looks
> worse than the BC pine.
>
>
> Max
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
> - no flogging dead horses
> - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
> - stay on topic and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Here is Eastern Missouri, I have found one place that stocks
1/4" fir marine, @ $48.50 / sheet. Don't bother asking about
occume.
I would be plenty happy if I could find a source of 3/8" MDO.
I had located ONE yard that carried it, but they have now
gone out of business (probably because they stocked 3/8" MDO
that nobody but boat builders wanted.
My first boat is BC pine exterior and it is looking more and more
like my next boat will be, also.
By the way, very little AC fir around here, and what there is looks
worse than the BC pine.
Max
1/4" fir marine, @ $48.50 / sheet. Don't bother asking about
occume.
I would be plenty happy if I could find a source of 3/8" MDO.
I had located ONE yard that carried it, but they have now
gone out of business (probably because they stocked 3/8" MDO
that nobody but boat builders wanted.
My first boat is BC pine exterior and it is looking more and more
like my next boat will be, also.
By the way, very little AC fir around here, and what there is looks
worse than the BC pine.
Max
Hi,
In eastern New Mexico the cost of real marine plywood,
including freight, is about $75 for 1/4" and $100 for
3/8". Freight of course is the problem. All you can find
here is exterior A/C ply and the quality varies greatly, even within the
same lift of wood. Fiberglas and epoxy
help but as Dave Carnell points out, when you cover
it with epoxy and cloth it still is not as good as marine
ply and it still costs as much.
James Fuller
In eastern New Mexico the cost of real marine plywood,
including freight, is about $75 for 1/4" and $100 for
3/8". Freight of course is the problem. All you can find
here is exterior A/C ply and the quality varies greatly, even within the
same lift of wood. Fiberglas and epoxy
help but as Dave Carnell points out, when you cover
it with epoxy and cloth it still is not as good as marine
ply and it still costs as much.
James Fuller
----- Original Message -----
From: <kwilson800@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 9:13 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Cheap and Dirty - plywood choices:
> In Minnesota, I can get 5-ply Meranti BS1088 for about $28/sheet. No
> knots, no voids, fairly heavy and strong. ACX fir is about $15-16
> for 1/4, about $20-22 for 3/8, both 3-ply. The 1/4" varies, some is
> not too bad, but the 3/8 is almost all dreadful. Lauan underlayment
> is maybe $12. No contest, particularly since I like to build glued
> lapstrake boats which pretty much require good plywood. My first few
> boats were ACX or Lauan, but I were building another Teal, I'd still
> buy the good stuff now.
>
> OTOH, in many places, the only way to get marine ply other than
> douglas fir is to order it. There are places with reasonable prices,
> but the shipping cost on a small order is so high that the price per
> sheet gets out of hand. And if it were a choice of building cheap or
> not building at all, well, that's a no-brainer too.
>
> Keith Wilson
>
> --- In bolger@y..., cha62759@t... wrote:
> > My question for now is what is the cost differential in using, for
> > example, 3/8" AC or 6mm good material where 6mm or 1/4" is
> specified?
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
> - no flogging dead horses
> - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
> - stay on topic and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
In Minnesota, I can get 5-ply Meranti BS1088 for about $28/sheet. No
knots, no voids, fairly heavy and strong. ACX fir is about $15-16
for 1/4, about $20-22 for 3/8, both 3-ply. The 1/4" varies, some is
not too bad, but the 3/8 is almost all dreadful. Lauan underlayment
is maybe $12. No contest, particularly since I like to build glued
lapstrake boats which pretty much require good plywood. My first few
boats were ACX or Lauan, but I were building another Teal, I'd still
buy the good stuff now.
OTOH, in many places, the only way to get marine ply other than
douglas fir is to order it. There are places with reasonable prices,
but the shipping cost on a small order is so high that the price per
sheet gets out of hand. And if it were a choice of building cheap or
not building at all, well, that's a no-brainer too.
Keith Wilson
knots, no voids, fairly heavy and strong. ACX fir is about $15-16
for 1/4, about $20-22 for 3/8, both 3-ply. The 1/4" varies, some is
not too bad, but the 3/8 is almost all dreadful. Lauan underlayment
is maybe $12. No contest, particularly since I like to build glued
lapstrake boats which pretty much require good plywood. My first few
boats were ACX or Lauan, but I were building another Teal, I'd still
buy the good stuff now.
OTOH, in many places, the only way to get marine ply other than
douglas fir is to order it. There are places with reasonable prices,
but the shipping cost on a small order is so high that the price per
sheet gets out of hand. And if it were a choice of building cheap or
not building at all, well, that's a no-brainer too.
Keith Wilson
--- In bolger@y..., cha62759@t... wrote:
> My question for now is what is the cost differential in using, for
> example, 3/8" AC or 6mm good material where 6mm or 1/4" is
specified?
I just got through trying to repair the damage to the 1/4" luan sides
I used on my Pointy Skiff. Yes, she is ten years + old, but the
damage is structural. We had a lovely crack running down the
starboard side from rail to chine and the luan is slowly
delaminating. If you can find AC use it.
Interesting to note is that the bottom is 3/8" marine ply. It is
as good as new despite serious neglect. I admit that the edges are
not as exposed as those on the sides. You get what you pay for. If
you want quick and dirty boats, use whatever. I think AC is a good
comprimise. My Diablo is 100% AC ply and is holding up fine after 10
years of use.
I will note that I just purchased 4 sheets of 3/8 marine ply for
the decking on my Micro. She is turning out to be a silver plater.
The lumberyard had tons of mahogany and 1/2" white oak! drool....
David Jost
-- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
I used on my Pointy Skiff. Yes, she is ten years + old, but the
damage is structural. We had a lovely crack running down the
starboard side from rail to chine and the luan is slowly
delaminating. If you can find AC use it.
Interesting to note is that the bottom is 3/8" marine ply. It is
as good as new despite serious neglect. I admit that the edges are
not as exposed as those on the sides. You get what you pay for. If
you want quick and dirty boats, use whatever. I think AC is a good
comprimise. My Diablo is 100% AC ply and is holding up fine after 10
years of use.
I will note that I just purchased 4 sheets of 3/8 marine ply for
the decking on my Micro. She is turning out to be a silver plater.
The lumberyard had tons of mahogany and 1/2" white oak! drool....
David Jost
-- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> I don't know about where you are, but here 1/4" AC fir can be hadfor
> $15-$20 a sheet. 1/4 marine fir is a least $35/sheet, if you canfind
> it. 1/2" AC, $20-$25/sheet; marine, $45/sheet. Exotic marine ply is
> unavailable. On a four sheet boat, the price difference between AC
> and marine fir pays for the epoxy and then some. Based on my own
> experience it yields a better boat too.
>
> I had a long and illuminating exchange with Bob Wise, builder of
It all depends on where you are and what the AC is made out
of. It can change in the same store from season to season.
At the store I do my building material shopping at, I
noticed the 1/2"AC was exceptional lately. It is not fir,
and it is 5 even plies with only one or two small voids per
sheet, and on one or two sheets I mistook the C for the A
side. Next fall it will probably be back to the 4 Ply void
ridden crap. It pays to look often and be prepared to leap
on the good stuff, even if you don't know what you are going
to build with it.
HJ
cha62759@...wrote:
of. It can change in the same store from season to season.
At the store I do my building material shopping at, I
noticed the 1/2"AC was exceptional lately. It is not fir,
and it is 5 even plies with only one or two small voids per
sheet, and on one or two sheets I mistook the C for the A
side. Next fall it will probably be back to the 4 Ply void
ridden crap. It pays to look often and be prepared to leap
on the good stuff, even if you don't know what you are going
to build with it.
HJ
cha62759@...wrote:
>
> A good grade of 5ply 6mm Luan Marine Ply is available here for
> $35.09 a sheet, 9mm for 44.51, 12mm for 55.47 .Fir marine ply is
> available and somewhat cheaper than the above. The quality doesn't
> compare. AC that I have seen is trash. Full of voids and patches. All
> other things equal the Luan is going to be a better boat. But maybe
> that much better is unnecessary. I'm not trying to start another hot
> thread here. My question related to using 3/8 cheap stuff or 1/4 good
> stuff for a boat where 1/4 is specified.
>
>
A good grade of 5ply 6mm Luan Marine Ply is available here for
$35.09 a sheet, 9mm for 44.51, 12mm for 55.47 .Fir marine ply is
available and somewhat cheaper than the above. The quality doesn't
compare. AC that I have seen is trash. Full of voids and patches. All
other things equal the Luan is going to be a better boat. But maybe
that much better is unnecessary. I'm not trying to start another hot
thread here. My question related to using 3/8 cheap stuff or 1/4 good
stuff for a boat where 1/4 is specified.
$35.09 a sheet, 9mm for 44.51, 12mm for 55.47 .Fir marine ply is
available and somewhat cheaper than the above. The quality doesn't
compare. AC that I have seen is trash. Full of voids and patches. All
other things equal the Luan is going to be a better boat. But maybe
that much better is unnecessary. I'm not trying to start another hot
thread here. My question related to using 3/8 cheap stuff or 1/4 good
stuff for a boat where 1/4 is specified.
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> I don't know about where you are, but here 1/4" AC fir can be had
for
> $15-$20 a sheet. 1/4 marine fir is a least $35/sheet, if you can
find
> it. YIBB,
>
> David
>
>
> >My experience tells me that using cheap materials in the short run
> >leads to more expense in the long run. There is a middle ground
> >between Brynzeel and Luan floor underlayment.> >
>
>My question for now is what is the cost differential in using, for
> >example, 3/8" AC or 6mm good material where 6mm or 1'4" is
specified?
> >It can't be all that much. The pleasure in working with good
materials
> >I would think at the very least would out weigh the savings in
using
> >inferior materials.
> >
> >Bob Chamberland
> >
> >
> >Bolger rules!!!
> >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
> >- no flogging dead horses
> >- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
> >- stay on topic and punctuate
> >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
> >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
> >MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
> 134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
> New York, New York 10001
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
> (212) 247-0296
Better as in AC w/epoxy&glass vs. marine alone = better
or
AC w/epoxy&glass vs. marine w/epoxy&glass = cheaper = better ;-)
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
or
AC w/epoxy&glass vs. marine w/epoxy&glass = cheaper = better ;-)
>AC fir is certainly cheaper than marine grade and it may be perfectlyCRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
>adequate for building an instant type boat but how does it make a
>boat "better".
>
>Mike
>
>--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
>
><snip>
>> On a four sheet boat, the price difference between AC
>> and marine fir pays for the epoxy and then some. Based on my own
>> experience it yields a better boat too.
>>
>> I had a long and illuminating exchange with Bob Wise, builder of
>the
>> Loose Moose II. He got his escape machine underway for less than
>many
>> people are paying for new cars. He also knows of a Loose Moose II
>> that went over $100K by the time she was launched. The difference?
>> Knowing what to spent money on, and when to keep the purse strings
>> tied tight.
>>
>> Some of Bolger's designs are quite deserving of the "gold platter"
>> treatment, but I don't think you'll find any of those designs in
>> "Instant Boats" or "The New Instant Boats." I think the whole idea
>is
>> boats you can build fast and cheap, use hard till there used up,
>then
>> strip the bits and pieces and build another!
>>
><snip>
>>
>> YIBB,
>>
>> David
>>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
>- no flogging dead horses
>- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>- stay on topic and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
AC fir is certainly cheaper than marine grade and it may be perfectly
adequate for building an instant type boat but how does it make a
boat "better".
Mike
adequate for building an instant type boat but how does it make a
boat "better".
Mike
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
<snip>
> On a four sheet boat, the price difference between AC
> and marine fir pays for the epoxy and then some. Based on my own
> experience it yields a better boat too.
>
> I had a long and illuminating exchange with Bob Wise, builder of
the
> Loose Moose II. He got his escape machine underway for less than
many
> people are paying for new cars. He also knows of a Loose Moose II
> that went over $100K by the time she was launched. The difference?
> Knowing what to spent money on, and when to keep the purse strings
> tied tight.
>
> Some of Bolger's designs are quite deserving of the "gold platter"
> treatment, but I don't think you'll find any of those designs in
> "Instant Boats" or "The New Instant Boats." I think the whole idea
is
> boats you can build fast and cheap, use hard till there used up,
then
> strip the bits and pieces and build another!
>
<snip>
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
I don't know about where you are, but here 1/4" AC fir can be had for
$15-$20 a sheet. 1/4 marine fir is a least $35/sheet, if you can find
it. 1/2" AC, $20-$25/sheet; marine, $45/sheet. Exotic marine ply is
unavailable. On a four sheet boat, the price difference between AC
and marine fir pays for the epoxy and then some. Based on my own
experience it yields a better boat too.
I had a long and illuminating exchange with Bob Wise, builder of the
Loose Moose II. He got his escape machine underway for less than many
people are paying for new cars. He also knows of a Loose Moose II
that went over $100K by the time she was launched. The difference?
Knowing what to spent money on, and when to keep the purse strings
tied tight.
Some of Bolger's designs are quite deserving of the "gold platter"
treatment, but I don't think you'll find any of those designs in
"Instant Boats" or "The New Instant Boats." I think the whole idea is
boats you can build fast and cheap, use hard till there used up, then
strip the bits and pieces and build another!
That said, some of the members of this list do amazing work, and I
have nothing but admiration for your (you know who your are,)
craftsmanship.
YIBB,
David
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
$15-$20 a sheet. 1/4 marine fir is a least $35/sheet, if you can find
it. 1/2" AC, $20-$25/sheet; marine, $45/sheet. Exotic marine ply is
unavailable. On a four sheet boat, the price difference between AC
and marine fir pays for the epoxy and then some. Based on my own
experience it yields a better boat too.
I had a long and illuminating exchange with Bob Wise, builder of the
Loose Moose II. He got his escape machine underway for less than many
people are paying for new cars. He also knows of a Loose Moose II
that went over $100K by the time she was launched. The difference?
Knowing what to spent money on, and when to keep the purse strings
tied tight.
Some of Bolger's designs are quite deserving of the "gold platter"
treatment, but I don't think you'll find any of those designs in
"Instant Boats" or "The New Instant Boats." I think the whole idea is
boats you can build fast and cheap, use hard till there used up, then
strip the bits and pieces and build another!
That said, some of the members of this list do amazing work, and I
have nothing but admiration for your (you know who your are,)
craftsmanship.
YIBB,
David
>My experience tells me that using cheap materials in the short runCRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
>leads to more expense in the long run. There is a middle ground
>between Brynzeel and Luan floor underlayment.
>
>My question for now is what is the cost differential in using, for
>example, 3/8" AC or 6mm good material where 6mm or 1'4" is specified?
>It can't be all that much. The pleasure in working with good materials
>I would think at the very least would out weigh the savings in using
>inferior materials.
>
>Bob Chamberland
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
>- no flogging dead horses
>- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
>- stay on topic and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
My experience tells me that using cheap materials in the short run
leads to more expense in the long run. There is a middle ground
between Brynzeel and Luan floor underlayment.
My question for now is what is the cost differential in using, for
example, 3/8" AC or 6mm good material where 6mm or 1'4" is specified?
It can't be all that much. The pleasure in working with good materials
I would think at the very least would out weigh the savings in using
inferior materials.
Bob Chamberland
leads to more expense in the long run. There is a middle ground
between Brynzeel and Luan floor underlayment.
My question for now is what is the cost differential in using, for
example, 3/8" AC or 6mm good material where 6mm or 1'4" is specified?
It can't be all that much. The pleasure in working with good materials
I would think at the very least would out weigh the savings in using
inferior materials.
Bob Chamberland