[bolger] Re: Time-out vs. 'Group-Therapy'
OK. First of all . . .
HI! Bob and Sheila.
Good to hear from you. I was just looking through some correspondence from
fifteen years ago when we were both building our Jessies and found your
letter wondering about copper sheathing for the mud berth in Paris. I still
have the photo Phil sent me of the LM#1 being hauled over the bridge prior
to launching. Well, I know you dropped the idea of the copper bottom, but
you'd be interested to know that your letter/question is what prompted me to
invent what is now System III's Copper/Epoxy permanent bottom paint which is
selling very well, so I hear.
Second, are you guys ever gonna get back to Yakima? If so please drop by
or call.
Also, as another personal, you guys finishing and launching your Jessie
(Loose Moose #1) in four and a half months is still legend around here after
all this time, AND LM#2 in six months is not only astounding, but something
we all should shoot for, if only in the next life!
LISTEN UP LISTMEMBERS!!
EVERYTHING THAT BOB SAYS IN HIS POSTING YOU CAN TAKE TO THE BANK. IN FACT,
YOU SHOULD PRINT HIS ORIGINAL MESSAGE (BELOW) OUT AND FRAME IT, OR LAMINATE
IT FOR YOUR WALLET, THINK ABOUT IT DURING SEX TO PROLONG AND PREVENT THE
INEVITABLE, OR WHATEVER, BUT PLEASE TAKE HEED!
Sorry for the emphasis and the yelling.
Don't you agree Phil?
Regards,
Chuck
***********************************
CHUCK MERRELL
MERRELL WATERCRAFT
P. O. Box 80264
Seattle, WA 98108-0264
(206) 764-1298
Email:chuck@...
Web Site:http://www.boatdesign.com
**********************************
HI! Bob and Sheila.
Good to hear from you. I was just looking through some correspondence from
fifteen years ago when we were both building our Jessies and found your
letter wondering about copper sheathing for the mud berth in Paris. I still
have the photo Phil sent me of the LM#1 being hauled over the bridge prior
to launching. Well, I know you dropped the idea of the copper bottom, but
you'd be interested to know that your letter/question is what prompted me to
invent what is now System III's Copper/Epoxy permanent bottom paint which is
selling very well, so I hear.
Second, are you guys ever gonna get back to Yakima? If so please drop by
or call.
Also, as another personal, you guys finishing and launching your Jessie
(Loose Moose #1) in four and a half months is still legend around here after
all this time, AND LM#2 in six months is not only astounding, but something
we all should shoot for, if only in the next life!
LISTEN UP LISTMEMBERS!!
EVERYTHING THAT BOB SAYS IN HIS POSTING YOU CAN TAKE TO THE BANK. IN FACT,
YOU SHOULD PRINT HIS ORIGINAL MESSAGE (BELOW) OUT AND FRAME IT, OR LAMINATE
IT FOR YOUR WALLET, THINK ABOUT IT DURING SEX TO PROLONG AND PREVENT THE
INEVITABLE, OR WHATEVER, BUT PLEASE TAKE HEED!
Sorry for the emphasis and the yelling.
Don't you agree Phil?
Regards,
Chuck
***********************************
CHUCK MERRELL
MERRELL WATERCRAFT
P. O. Box 80264
Seattle, WA 98108-0264
(206) 764-1298
Email:chuck@...
Web Site:http://www.boatdesign.com
**********************************
----- Original Message -----
From: "lm2" <lm2@...>
To: <bolger@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 5:43 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Time-out vs. 'Group-Therapy'
> This touches on something that is very important for "amateur" builders.
>
> When Sheila and I built our Jessie Cooper we had to join a boatbuilders
> coop as it was the only way we could find space in the Paris area to build
> a boat. The other nine boat builders were very interested in the design
and
> wondered how long it would take me to build it. Having already built a
> traditional cruising boat, a catamaran , a micro and countless dinghys I
> was pretty sure I could knock it out in six months...They thought the
> american guy was insane and I was subjected to all sorts of horror stories
> as to how it was impossible to build a boat in my time frame as most of
> them had been working an average of seven years on theirs...We launched
> Loose Moose 1 four and a half months later and went on a eight week cruise
> two weeks after. The boat worked and floated right side up.
>
> After four years of living on LM1 we had become so cramped that a new boat
> was needed and we had Phil draw up LM2. We looked into building at our old
> coop but as no one had yet finished their boat we had to build elsewhere.
> Loose Moose 2 was built in two three month slices ( silly building a boat
> in winter) and I worked on it just like a job ( eight hours a day, six
days
> a week and Sheila put in a few hours on the weekends) My building log
tells
> me we putjust over 1400 hours into the construction of LM2.
>
> Anyway as they say it is not enough to win someone has to lose and the
> point of all this is that the guys who did not complete their boat ( who
> are all still working on them as we speak) all made the same
> mistakes...1.Changing the Plans...it seems to me if you want a stitch and
> glue boat one should search out a plan of just such a boat and build
> it...not adapt...as their are many plans out there and the unforseen
> problems that making "little" changes cause are way out of proportion to
> any gains received 2. Loss of confidence...every boat person has opinions
> and are more than willing to share them and even I find it hard not to
> listen sometimes but to finish your boat you have to ignore everyone but
> your designer,(after all thats why you pay them the big bucks) if you have
> concerns talk to the designer. Boatbuilding by boatyard vote is bozoland.
> 3.Yacht syndrome...this is a serious sickness trying to make your boat
into
> a shrine instead of a ...BOAT. It will double or triple the cost of a boat
> while making it harder to keep up down the line and will do nothing for
> resale value...if you want to invest buy goverment bonds or some such.
>
> Right now we are still recovering from the loss of Loose Moose 2 and we
> will most likely find a fixer upper for our next boat as we are both very
> busy in our respective careers ...though I would much prefer to build but
> at the moment I have to consider the cost/time element (ie dont have much
> of either) So if anybody happens to know of any great deals on a fixer
> upper sail or power boats on the east coast we are motivated.
>
> Hoping everyone has a great holiday
> Bob Wise
> St Thomas
>
> PS ...Shameless plug department...Sheila has a yacht charter buisness now
> and she has one of Phils aluminum schooner's (Coral Sea) a Palmer Johnson
> for charter so if anyone wants a break from the boatbuilding grind on a
> classic yacht you may want to check out her site
>http://www.paradiseconnections.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> You can today at X.com - and we'll give you $20 to try it! Sign
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>
This touches on something that is very important for "amateur" builders.
When Sheila and I built our Jessie Cooper we had to join a boatbuilders
coop as it was the only way we could find space in the Paris area to build
a boat. The other nine boat builders were very interested in the design and
wondered how long it would take me to build it. Having already built a
traditional cruising boat, a catamaran , a micro and countless dinghys I
was pretty sure I could knock it out in six months...They thought the
american guy was insane and I was subjected to all sorts of horror stories
as to how it was impossible to build a boat in my time frame as most of
them had been working an average of seven years on theirs...We launched
Loose Moose 1 four and a half months later and went on a eight week cruise
two weeks after. The boat worked and floated right side up.
After four years of living on LM1 we had become so cramped that a new boat
was needed and we had Phil draw up LM2. We looked into building at our old
coop but as no one had yet finished their boat we had to build elsewhere.
Loose Moose 2 was built in two three month slices ( silly building a boat
in winter) and I worked on it just like a job ( eight hours a day, six days
a week and Sheila put in a few hours on the weekends) My building log tells
me we putjust over 1400 hours into the construction of LM2.
Anyway as they say it is not enough to win someone has to lose and the
point of all this is that the guys who did not complete their boat ( who
are all still working on them as we speak) all made the same
mistakes...1.Changing the Plans...it seems to me if you want a stitch and
glue boat one should search out a plan of just such a boat and build
it...not adapt...as their are many plans out there and the unforseen
problems that making "little" changes cause are way out of proportion to
any gains received 2. Loss of confidence...every boat person has opinions
and are more than willing to share them and even I find it hard not to
listen sometimes but to finish your boat you have to ignore everyone but
your designer,(after all thats why you pay them the big bucks) if you have
concerns talk to the designer. Boatbuilding by boatyard vote is bozoland.
3.Yacht syndrome...this is a serious sickness trying to make your boat into
a shrine instead of a ...BOAT. It will double or triple the cost of a boat
while making it harder to keep up down the line and will do nothing for
resale value...if you want to invest buy goverment bonds or some such.
Right now we are still recovering from the loss of Loose Moose 2 and we
will most likely find a fixer upper for our next boat as we are both very
busy in our respective careers ...though I would much prefer to build but
at the moment I have to consider the cost/time element (ie dont have much
of either) So if anybody happens to know of any great deals on a fixer
upper sail or power boats on the east coast we are motivated.
Hoping everyone has a great holiday
Bob Wise
St Thomas
PS ...Shameless plug department...Sheila has a yacht charter buisness now
and she has one of Phils aluminum schooner's (Coral Sea) a Palmer Johnson
for charter so if anyone wants a break from the boatbuilding grind on a
classic yacht you may want to check out her site
http://www.paradiseconnections.com
When Sheila and I built our Jessie Cooper we had to join a boatbuilders
coop as it was the only way we could find space in the Paris area to build
a boat. The other nine boat builders were very interested in the design and
wondered how long it would take me to build it. Having already built a
traditional cruising boat, a catamaran , a micro and countless dinghys I
was pretty sure I could knock it out in six months...They thought the
american guy was insane and I was subjected to all sorts of horror stories
as to how it was impossible to build a boat in my time frame as most of
them had been working an average of seven years on theirs...We launched
Loose Moose 1 four and a half months later and went on a eight week cruise
two weeks after. The boat worked and floated right side up.
After four years of living on LM1 we had become so cramped that a new boat
was needed and we had Phil draw up LM2. We looked into building at our old
coop but as no one had yet finished their boat we had to build elsewhere.
Loose Moose 2 was built in two three month slices ( silly building a boat
in winter) and I worked on it just like a job ( eight hours a day, six days
a week and Sheila put in a few hours on the weekends) My building log tells
me we putjust over 1400 hours into the construction of LM2.
Anyway as they say it is not enough to win someone has to lose and the
point of all this is that the guys who did not complete their boat ( who
are all still working on them as we speak) all made the same
mistakes...1.Changing the Plans...it seems to me if you want a stitch and
glue boat one should search out a plan of just such a boat and build
it...not adapt...as their are many plans out there and the unforseen
problems that making "little" changes cause are way out of proportion to
any gains received 2. Loss of confidence...every boat person has opinions
and are more than willing to share them and even I find it hard not to
listen sometimes but to finish your boat you have to ignore everyone but
your designer,(after all thats why you pay them the big bucks) if you have
concerns talk to the designer. Boatbuilding by boatyard vote is bozoland.
3.Yacht syndrome...this is a serious sickness trying to make your boat into
a shrine instead of a ...BOAT. It will double or triple the cost of a boat
while making it harder to keep up down the line and will do nothing for
resale value...if you want to invest buy goverment bonds or some such.
Right now we are still recovering from the loss of Loose Moose 2 and we
will most likely find a fixer upper for our next boat as we are both very
busy in our respective careers ...though I would much prefer to build but
at the moment I have to consider the cost/time element (ie dont have much
of either) So if anybody happens to know of any great deals on a fixer
upper sail or power boats on the east coast we are motivated.
Hoping everyone has a great holiday
Bob Wise
St Thomas
PS ...Shameless plug department...Sheila has a yacht charter buisness now
and she has one of Phils aluminum schooner's (Coral Sea) a Palmer Johnson
for charter so if anyone wants a break from the boatbuilding grind on a
classic yacht you may want to check out her site
http://www.paradiseconnections.com
> Several years ago one 22' CHAMPLAIN 10HP outboard cruiser wasIs this an outgrowth of your sharpshooter (30 - odd boats)? I ask because I
> 'reassessed' so many times by the hesitant and doubtful owner ....
built and used your Tennessee, and found it a great boa,t but a little large
for the two of us, and would like to build something a bit handier to hand
my 10 hp. Honda on.
Chuck Leinweber
Duckworks Magazine
http://www.hilconet.com/~dworksmg
Of course this is all quite unpleasant, particularly if comes after all
that reality-check and sober stuff.
But offering the Leo episode - it seems he wanted an answer - was both
meant to be corrective and instructive.
Corrective: People do their thing, as we do ours. If the spheres get
dragged together by Leo's unilateral public pronoucements, we plain
don't want to get a zillion requests for the junk-rigged version of the
AS-29 - which we would likely never produce, Leo or no Leo.
Instructive: Discussing ins and outs of boat-building must include
being aware of approaches like Leo's.
We've seen custom-designs that were to be built for $225.000 bounce to
$600+ K and we'd still not want to be aboard because she's gotten
seriously unsound in terms of compromized stability, reduced buoyancy
and built-in fire-hazards. Intended as a retirement part-time
liveaboard last-big-boat project, a year later she was 'donated' away
by her owner as a tax-write-off... having wasted our time and nerves in
a big way, watching the proceedings and trying to save the boat's
integrity every which way.
Several years ago one 22' CHAMPLAIN 10HP outboard cruiser was
'reassessed' so many times by the hesitant and doubtful owner (mostly
attributes which worked perfectly fine on sisterships elsewhere) and
promptly modified this way and that during construction, that she's
still not in the water while other have just finished their second
season already. Some of the modifications were supposed to save
time...
Building larger boats UNmodified can be taxing enough, and we have a
bag full of cases across the whole spectrum of possible outcomes all
the way to the truly tragic ends. Hence our hesitation about
encouraging 'fixes' on the shopfloor as a matter of perhaps just
temporary 'changes of mind' or (understandable) urges to 'improve'
things. Again, if the design does not work after all as designed - has
certainly happened with our work - then it's time for dramatic changes,
with or without our input; although we'd try to make good if at all
possible.
As a case-study eager to be public, Leo won't hurt himself, as stated
earlier. But this example implies the need for careful consideration as
to the multiplicity of consequences BEFORE anything beyond the plans
gets bought. On larger projects the proverbial 'cascading
consequences' can put the coherence and thus the whole purpose of the
project in doubt.
Finally, the used boat market is full of boats, long since paid off by
someone else, ready for a second life as an experimental live-aboard,
but not requiring nearly as much time and money. To find out how a
junk schooner/ketch would work is not a secret, and nothing new about
the rig will be known after the first shakedown cruise. Whether it is
good for the design is another thing. So why then pick an AS-29 if
major attributes such as rig and lateral plane geometries are not to
taste?
that reality-check and sober stuff.
But offering the Leo episode - it seems he wanted an answer - was both
meant to be corrective and instructive.
Corrective: People do their thing, as we do ours. If the spheres get
dragged together by Leo's unilateral public pronoucements, we plain
don't want to get a zillion requests for the junk-rigged version of the
AS-29 - which we would likely never produce, Leo or no Leo.
Instructive: Discussing ins and outs of boat-building must include
being aware of approaches like Leo's.
We've seen custom-designs that were to be built for $225.000 bounce to
$600+ K and we'd still not want to be aboard because she's gotten
seriously unsound in terms of compromized stability, reduced buoyancy
and built-in fire-hazards. Intended as a retirement part-time
liveaboard last-big-boat project, a year later she was 'donated' away
by her owner as a tax-write-off... having wasted our time and nerves in
a big way, watching the proceedings and trying to save the boat's
integrity every which way.
Several years ago one 22' CHAMPLAIN 10HP outboard cruiser was
'reassessed' so many times by the hesitant and doubtful owner (mostly
attributes which worked perfectly fine on sisterships elsewhere) and
promptly modified this way and that during construction, that she's
still not in the water while other have just finished their second
season already. Some of the modifications were supposed to save
time...
Building larger boats UNmodified can be taxing enough, and we have a
bag full of cases across the whole spectrum of possible outcomes all
the way to the truly tragic ends. Hence our hesitation about
encouraging 'fixes' on the shopfloor as a matter of perhaps just
temporary 'changes of mind' or (understandable) urges to 'improve'
things. Again, if the design does not work after all as designed - has
certainly happened with our work - then it's time for dramatic changes,
with or without our input; although we'd try to make good if at all
possible.
As a case-study eager to be public, Leo won't hurt himself, as stated
earlier. But this example implies the need for careful consideration as
to the multiplicity of consequences BEFORE anything beyond the plans
gets bought. On larger projects the proverbial 'cascading
consequences' can put the coherence and thus the whole purpose of the
project in doubt.
Finally, the used boat market is full of boats, long since paid off by
someone else, ready for a second life as an experimental live-aboard,
but not requiring nearly as much time and money. To find out how a
junk schooner/ketch would work is not a secret, and nothing new about
the rig will be known after the first shakedown cruise. Whether it is
good for the design is another thing. So why then pick an AS-29 if
major attributes such as rig and lateral plane geometries are not to
taste?