Re: Light Schooner
> Uh, I sailed my light schooner hard and long, for manyYou seem to be the exception that proves the rule. I'll have to be
> years, and never flipped her.
less flamboyant in assuming the facts in the future, but you do seem
to agree with my overall point.
I sailed a Sailfish without flipping her for many years until a
moment of inattention, a first-time crew, and a minor puff sent me
swimming.
Peter
Peter wrote, in part:
"As far as I can tell, no one with a Light Scooner has
failed to
capsize it, and that's with an active crew. It's not a boat
for a
single-handed sailor to consider."
Uh, I sailed my light schooner hard and long, for many
years, and never flipped her. Phil wrote to me while I was
building her, pointing out that capsizing such a boat is
generally a salutary experience, one that teaches caution.
I decided I needed no such lesson, and while I have sailed
her hard, with a full crew, right on her rail at times, I
never flipped her. I once nearly broached her in a
following sea and heavy air on Lake Erie in Summer, but
that was just a stupid mistake..fortunately, I managed to
avoid a full broach. But it did constrict the old arteries
for a second or two, as I recall.
Anyone who has sailed a light schooner in sporty fashion
will tell you that you can tell at once the boat was
designed by a master. She is as sea-worthy a
protected-water boat as you can find. It's quite possible
to flip her, but only if one is being deliberately obtuse.
I do agree she is not a single-handed boat. Although I have
sailed mine by myself a few times in light airs with jib and
reefed main, and it was quite enjoyable.
Charles Andrews
SoCal
"As far as I can tell, no one with a Light Scooner has
failed to
capsize it, and that's with an active crew. It's not a boat
for a
single-handed sailor to consider."
Uh, I sailed my light schooner hard and long, for many
years, and never flipped her. Phil wrote to me while I was
building her, pointing out that capsizing such a boat is
generally a salutary experience, one that teaches caution.
I decided I needed no such lesson, and while I have sailed
her hard, with a full crew, right on her rail at times, I
never flipped her. I once nearly broached her in a
following sea and heavy air on Lake Erie in Summer, but
that was just a stupid mistake..fortunately, I managed to
avoid a full broach. But it did constrict the old arteries
for a second or two, as I recall.
Anyone who has sailed a light schooner in sporty fashion
will tell you that you can tell at once the boat was
designed by a master. She is as sea-worthy a
protected-water boat as you can find. It's quite possible
to flip her, but only if one is being deliberately obtuse.
I do agree she is not a single-handed boat. Although I have
sailed mine by myself a few times in light airs with jib and
reefed main, and it was quite enjoyable.
Charles Andrews
SoCal
BO>I always thought you could try some different things, epsecially with rigs,
BO>as long as you engineered the center of sail area to be the same as
BO>designed. Two sprit sails would work, I think, as long as you made sure the
BO>center of sail area/effort stayed in the same place. Didn't they used to do
BO>alot of this back in the twenties and thirties? Play with different rigs
BO>etc? I mean, you used to could buy many different boats as a Ketch or
BO>Sloop. Only the mast location and shape of the sails changed.
Been discussing this off-group. I think a distinction needs to be made
between generic rig and hull and specific design rig and hull,
particularly where the specific design eg LS, has been put together
using a minimum of materials all in strategically vital places.
I see a lot of point in new designs. I see a lot of point in recycling
old designs. I see a lot of point in building specific designs. i
don't see a whole lot of point in degrading an excellent specific
design.
Tim & Flying Tadpole
BO>as long as you engineered the center of sail area to be the same as
BO>designed. Two sprit sails would work, I think, as long as you made sure the
BO>center of sail area/effort stayed in the same place. Didn't they used to do
BO>alot of this back in the twenties and thirties? Play with different rigs
BO>etc? I mean, you used to could buy many different boats as a Ketch or
BO>Sloop. Only the mast location and shape of the sails changed.
Been discussing this off-group. I think a distinction needs to be made
between generic rig and hull and specific design rig and hull,
particularly where the specific design eg LS, has been put together
using a minimum of materials all in strategically vital places.
I see a lot of point in new designs. I see a lot of point in recycling
old designs. I see a lot of point in building specific designs. i
don't see a whole lot of point in degrading an excellent specific
design.
Tim & Flying Tadpole
BO>I have long admired the Light Scooner hull. I have thot the hull would be a
BO>good start for a single handed boat. Certainly it would not be a "Bolger
BO>Light Scooner" any more, but it might be a great boat to build and sail. My
BO>own personal favorite power plant would be a pair of the 60 square foot leg
BO>o muttons found on the Brick. I'd add a third step so that you could have
BO>both masts up or only one mast up depending on the winds. In my mind, it
BO>would start looking and behaving like a Sea Pearl 21.
Reading books too might help. "Skiffs and schooners" (RD Culler) has
designs which are designed for the multimast purpose. Others exist too.
WHy not pursue them rather than subjecting the poor LS to further
indignities??
Tim & Flying Tadpole
BO>good start for a single handed boat. Certainly it would not be a "Bolger
BO>Light Scooner" any more, but it might be a great boat to build and sail. My
BO>own personal favorite power plant would be a pair of the 60 square foot leg
BO>o muttons found on the Brick. I'd add a third step so that you could have
BO>both masts up or only one mast up depending on the winds. In my mind, it
BO>would start looking and behaving like a Sea Pearl 21.
Reading books too might help. "Skiffs and schooners" (RD Culler) has
designs which are designed for the multimast purpose. Others exist too.
WHy not pursue them rather than subjecting the poor LS to further
indignities??
Tim & Flying Tadpole
BO>"I know this may be sacrilegious, but how might one modify the rig on
BO>the
BO>light schooner for single handing? Do you think it could be set up in
BO>yawl
BO>fashion like a Micro?"
BO>Isn't this exactly what that long post by PCB compained about? If you
BO>want a yawl, get a yawl.
A very short while back in this eGroup was an extended series of posts
dealing with suggestions of file (deadrise) bottoms, shifted
daggerboards and changed rigs on Light Schooners. Rather than repeat
the whole lot, can I refer you to the comment re redesigns which has
been sitting on the building tips in the Light Schooner Website since
1996 athttp://www.ace.net.au/schooner/redesign.htm
Tim & Flying Tadpole
BO>the
BO>light schooner for single handing? Do you think it could be set up in
BO>yawl
BO>fashion like a Micro?"
BO>Isn't this exactly what that long post by PCB compained about? If you
BO>want a yawl, get a yawl.
A very short while back in this eGroup was an extended series of posts
dealing with suggestions of file (deadrise) bottoms, shifted
daggerboards and changed rigs on Light Schooners. Rather than repeat
the whole lot, can I refer you to the comment re redesigns which has
been sitting on the building tips in the Light Schooner Website since
1996 athttp://www.ace.net.au/schooner/redesign.htm
Tim & Flying Tadpole
You're right about "specific" designs. My comments were geared toward a
more generic "rig switching".
Its interesting to note the love affair most of us have (me included) with
the light scooner. In reality, the single-handed scooner would fit most of
our sailing activities better, i.e, no need for crew/ballast, a sort of dry
spot of cabin, less sail area to manhandle, etc. It just doesn't look as
good as the LS. Nor would it likely plane so easily. Of course, you also
wouldn't have to figure out how to fill in that hole in the bottom where the
geyser goes :)!
Robert & Amy Lundy
St. Petersburg, fla.
robert@...
amy@...
more generic "rig switching".
Its interesting to note the love affair most of us have (me included) with
the light scooner. In reality, the single-handed scooner would fit most of
our sailing activities better, i.e, no need for crew/ballast, a sort of dry
spot of cabin, less sail area to manhandle, etc. It just doesn't look as
good as the LS. Nor would it likely plane so easily. Of course, you also
wouldn't have to figure out how to fill in that hole in the bottom where the
geyser goes :)!
Robert & Amy Lundy
St. Petersburg, fla.
robert@...
amy@...
> -----Original Message-----
> From:tjfatchen@...[mailto:tjfatchen@...]
> Sent: 22 December, 1999 6:36 AM
> To:bolger@egroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Light Schooner
>
>
> BO>I always thought you could try some different things,
> epsecially with rigs,
> BO>as long as you engineered the center of sail area to be the same as
> BO>designed. Two sprit sails would work, I think, as long as you
> made sure the
> BO>center of sail area/effort stayed in the same place. Didn't
> they used to do
> BO>alot of this back in the twenties and thirties? Play with
> different rigs
> BO>etc? I mean, you used to could buy many different boats as a Ketch or
> BO>Sloop. Only the mast location and shape of the sails changed.
>
> Been discussing this off-group. I think a distinction needs to be made
> between generic rig and hull and specific design rig and hull,
> particularly where the specific design eg LS, has been put together
> using a minimum of materials all in strategically vital places.
>
> I see a lot of point in new designs. I see a lot of point in recycling
> old designs. I see a lot of point in building specific designs. i
> don't see a whole lot of point in degrading an excellent specific
> design.
>
> Tim & Flying Tadpole
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
I always thought you could try some different things, epsecially with rigs,
as long as you engineered the center of sail area to be the same as
designed. Two sprit sails would work, I think, as long as you made sure the
center of sail area/effort stayed in the same place. Didn't they used to do
alot of this back in the twenties and thirties? Play with different rigs
etc? I mean, you used to could buy many different boats as a Ketch or
Sloop. Only the mast location and shape of the sails changed.
Jim Michalak has been doing some essays each month on these topics. Good
reading if you can understand geometry and trig.
Robert & Amy Lundy
St. Petersburg, fla.
robert@...
amy@...
as long as you engineered the center of sail area to be the same as
designed. Two sprit sails would work, I think, as long as you made sure the
center of sail area/effort stayed in the same place. Didn't they used to do
alot of this back in the twenties and thirties? Play with different rigs
etc? I mean, you used to could buy many different boats as a Ketch or
Sloop. Only the mast location and shape of the sails changed.
Jim Michalak has been doing some essays each month on these topics. Good
reading if you can understand geometry and trig.
Robert & Amy Lundy
St. Petersburg, fla.
robert@...
amy@...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: T Webber [mailto:tbertw@...]
> Sent: 21 December, 1999 1:54 PM
> To:bolger@...
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Light Schooner
>
>
> At 08:13 AM 12/21/1999 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> >"I know this may be sacrilegious, but how might one modify the rig on
> >the
> >light schooner for single handing? Do you think it could be set up in
> >yawl
> >fashion like a Micro?"
> >
>
> I think that it is a great idea to "think out loud" on this list. The
> comments that are received from others with different opinions on our
> concepts is a good way to improve our knowledge about the "how and why" of
> certain designs.
>
> I have long admired the Light Scooner hull. I have thot the hull
> would be a
> good start for a single handed boat. Certainly it would not be a "Bolger
> Light Scooner" any more, but it might be a great boat to build
> and sail. My
> own personal favorite power plant would be a pair of the 60
> square foot leg
> o muttons found on the Brick. I'd add a third step so that you could have
> both masts up or only one mast up depending on the winds. In my mind, it
> would start looking and behaving like a Sea Pearl 21.
>
> The major point here is that if you modify or mix and match from several
> different plans and designers, you are responsible for the results. Enjoy
> the process! Be prepared for it not to work as well as you thot it would!
>
> There are several programs out there that will allow you to enter
> the shape
> of the hull and gather the "engineering" data. An engineer friend of mine
> developed an Excel spreadsheet to determine the sail loading at various
> wind speeds. That is compared to the "righting moment" of the hull from
> Carlson's Hull program. This is not a substitute for the "boat on the
> lake", but it gives insight into the possible effects the mix and match
> process.
>
> Enjoy your dreams!!!
>
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
At 08:13 AM 12/21/1999 -0800, you wrote:
comments that are received from others with different opinions on our
concepts is a good way to improve our knowledge about the "how and why" of
certain designs.
I have long admired the Light Scooner hull. I have thot the hull would be a
good start for a single handed boat. Certainly it would not be a "Bolger
Light Scooner" any more, but it might be a great boat to build and sail. My
own personal favorite power plant would be a pair of the 60 square foot leg
o muttons found on the Brick. I'd add a third step so that you could have
both masts up or only one mast up depending on the winds. In my mind, it
would start looking and behaving like a Sea Pearl 21.
The major point here is that if you modify or mix and match from several
different plans and designers, you are responsible for the results. Enjoy
the process! Be prepared for it not to work as well as you thot it would!
There are several programs out there that will allow you to enter the shape
of the hull and gather the "engineering" data. An engineer friend of mine
developed an Excel spreadsheet to determine the sail loading at various
wind speeds. That is compared to the "righting moment" of the hull from
Carlson's Hull program. This is not a substitute for the "boat on the
lake", but it gives insight into the possible effects the mix and match
process.
Enjoy your dreams!!!
Tim
>I think that it is a great idea to "think out loud" on this list. The
>"I know this may be sacrilegious, but how might one modify the rig on
>the
>light schooner for single handing? Do you think it could be set up in
>yawl
>fashion like a Micro?"
>
comments that are received from others with different opinions on our
concepts is a good way to improve our knowledge about the "how and why" of
certain designs.
I have long admired the Light Scooner hull. I have thot the hull would be a
good start for a single handed boat. Certainly it would not be a "Bolger
Light Scooner" any more, but it might be a great boat to build and sail. My
own personal favorite power plant would be a pair of the 60 square foot leg
o muttons found on the Brick. I'd add a third step so that you could have
both masts up or only one mast up depending on the winds. In my mind, it
would start looking and behaving like a Sea Pearl 21.
The major point here is that if you modify or mix and match from several
different plans and designers, you are responsible for the results. Enjoy
the process! Be prepared for it not to work as well as you thot it would!
There are several programs out there that will allow you to enter the shape
of the hull and gather the "engineering" data. An engineer friend of mine
developed an Excel spreadsheet to determine the sail loading at various
wind speeds. That is compared to the "righting moment" of the hull from
Carlson's Hull program. This is not a substitute for the "boat on the
lake", but it gives insight into the possible effects the mix and match
process.
Enjoy your dreams!!!
Tim
"I know this may be sacrilegious, but how might one modify the rig on
the
light schooner for single handing? Do you think it could be set up in
yawl
fashion like a Micro?"
Isn't this exactly what that long post by PCB compained about? If you
want a yawl, get a yawl. A yawl-rigged schooner is not a schooner. A
yawl rig on a Light Schooner hull would sail . . . well, I have no idea
how it would sail, but it probably wouldn't sail like a Light Schooner.
Ah, human nature. We choose a Bolger boat because we like his work and
then we want to change it. Oh, well, if you think you are a better boat
designer than he is, go for it. But don't call it a Bolger boat.
As he wrote, there are lots of boats out there, and lots of designs.
Pick one that fits you.
the
light schooner for single handing? Do you think it could be set up in
yawl
fashion like a Micro?"
Isn't this exactly what that long post by PCB compained about? If you
want a yawl, get a yawl. A yawl-rigged schooner is not a schooner. A
yawl rig on a Light Schooner hull would sail . . . well, I have no idea
how it would sail, but it probably wouldn't sail like a Light Schooner.
Ah, human nature. We choose a Bolger boat because we like his work and
then we want to change it. Oh, well, if you think you are a better boat
designer than he is, go for it. But don't call it a Bolger boat.
As he wrote, there are lots of boats out there, and lots of designs.
Pick one that fits you.