Re: Biting the hand that 'feeds' you
Well said Paul.
--- In bolger@y..., "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@w...> wrote:
long message snipped for brevity.
Perhaps some of what I said was taken as more negative than I really
intended (likely my fault, not the reader's). I apologise if my tone
was too harsh.
I took Bill's message to mean that my "cheapness" and "penny
pinching" in building from the book was inappropriate and took
advantage of Mr. Bolger in some way. I thought Bill's message just
barely stopped short of calling it stealing. Again, perhaps I may be
reading it differently than he intended, but certainly "cheapness"
and "penny pinching" are derogatory terms and insinuate wrong-doing
of some sort on the part of the person who builds from the book.
This is completely out of synch with the fact that the books seem to
be written with that intention in mind (Mr. Payson's books any way, I
don't own any of Mr. Bolger's books).
So, I apologise if my tone was harsh. I honestly didn't think I was
flaming Bill. In fact I didn't think I even escalated the rhetoric
from the level it already was at in Bill's message, which I took to
be rather judgemental and accusatory. If I read too much into Bill's
message I apologise for that too.
I stand by my assertion that it is perfectly OK to build from Mr.
Payson's books. I don't see anything wrong with it.
In the end, we will probably not agree and that is OK.
Pete Staehling
intended (likely my fault, not the reader's). I apologise if my tone
was too harsh.
I took Bill's message to mean that my "cheapness" and "penny
pinching" in building from the book was inappropriate and took
advantage of Mr. Bolger in some way. I thought Bill's message just
barely stopped short of calling it stealing. Again, perhaps I may be
reading it differently than he intended, but certainly "cheapness"
and "penny pinching" are derogatory terms and insinuate wrong-doing
of some sort on the part of the person who builds from the book.
This is completely out of synch with the fact that the books seem to
be written with that intention in mind (Mr. Payson's books any way, I
don't own any of Mr. Bolger's books).
So, I apologise if my tone was harsh. I honestly didn't think I was
flaming Bill. In fact I didn't think I even escalated the rhetoric
from the level it already was at in Bill's message, which I took to
be rather judgemental and accusatory. If I read too much into Bill's
message I apologise for that too.
I stand by my assertion that it is perfectly OK to build from Mr.
Payson's books. I don't see anything wrong with it.
In the end, we will probably not agree and that is OK.
Pete Staehling
--- In bolger@y..., cha62759@t... wrote:
>
> I can understand why one would disagree with Bill Samson but I
don't
> understand the anger of the replies. I'm glad I'm not on the
highway
> with some of the respondents to this board. What's up?
>
> Bob Chamberland
Both Bolger and Payson are obviously very intelligent gentlemen with alot of
integrity, who understand human nature quite well. We all obviously have to
make a living, and as writers and designers and businessmen they must
understand that the foundation of their living is to have people building
their boats. Presumably they're receiving a royalty for your purchase of
their book, and figured out that for every, say, 10 books sold, maybe 1 boat
actually gets into the water. If you're clever enough to build from the
small drawing and info provided, their job is finished and they are paid; if
not, you can easily purchase more detailed plans from them, (and more of
their time if you need their direct support - remember that's factored into
the price of the plans too). Some folks may be thrilled to build the
simplest of designs from full plans, others may see no problem in attempting
a more complicated boat using only the book; everyone comes into this at a
different level and in a polite, honest society (which I assume all
boatbuilders belong to), the money shelled out should average out being
roughly commensurate with the amount of handholding given. Where necessary,
information can be withheld from the drawings so you are forced to buy
plans - try to figure out a Devlin boat from the drawings in his book! And
yes, I've seen Bolger write that he assumes if you bought the book, you can
build the boat (I believe it was in the writeup for Tortoise someplace,
perhaps Annie Hill's book?). So you build your boat, others see it, some
will be curious enough to ask where you got the design, perhaps another book
or even a set of plans is sold and the cycle continues. Some of Payson's
books have been around a long time and continue generating income in this
way, especially from those who buy direct from him. And let's face it, for
many of us boatbuilding is a sort of addiction - if they give you the little
stuff for the price of the book, then you get hooked and come back around
looking for 'the hard stuff' and having to buy the plans! For the larger,
more complex designs, you get far more than you pay for, and if you aren't
willing to part with your money for plans then you must know you'll pay in
other ways; so in a way I think it's self-enforcing. In the end it comes
down to what one is most comfortable with - both the builder and the
designer. If someone does ask, I'm certain Mr. Bolger can articulate it far
better than I am able to.
As for me, after seeing and rowing David Cassidy's Elegant Punt at the
Champlain messabout, I've decided to build one as a tender to my yet-unbuilt
micro. I'm sure I could build Elegant Punt for the cost of the wood - just
xerox a copy of the plans from the book in the library - but before I do
I'll send a check to Payson and buy his book, and probably buy the plans as
well. My micro drawings were purchased directly from Bolger (signed copy at
my request), and a couple questions answered graciously, quickly, via FAX.
Of the 4 canoes and kayaks I've built, I've designed a boat, ripped off an
existing commercial design, replicated a museum piece from a drawing in a
book, and bought plans - and I can tell you, plans are one of the best
bargains going, on many different levels. In this modern world of big
corporate amoebas swallowing up everything in sight, I feel we have to do
what we can to show our appreciation and support to the individuals
responsible for giving us our joy, otherwise we'll all be buying identical
rotomolded plastic dinghies from West Marine and the world will be a far
less interesting place.
Paul L. (stepping down off soapbox...)
integrity, who understand human nature quite well. We all obviously have to
make a living, and as writers and designers and businessmen they must
understand that the foundation of their living is to have people building
their boats. Presumably they're receiving a royalty for your purchase of
their book, and figured out that for every, say, 10 books sold, maybe 1 boat
actually gets into the water. If you're clever enough to build from the
small drawing and info provided, their job is finished and they are paid; if
not, you can easily purchase more detailed plans from them, (and more of
their time if you need their direct support - remember that's factored into
the price of the plans too). Some folks may be thrilled to build the
simplest of designs from full plans, others may see no problem in attempting
a more complicated boat using only the book; everyone comes into this at a
different level and in a polite, honest society (which I assume all
boatbuilders belong to), the money shelled out should average out being
roughly commensurate with the amount of handholding given. Where necessary,
information can be withheld from the drawings so you are forced to buy
plans - try to figure out a Devlin boat from the drawings in his book! And
yes, I've seen Bolger write that he assumes if you bought the book, you can
build the boat (I believe it was in the writeup for Tortoise someplace,
perhaps Annie Hill's book?). So you build your boat, others see it, some
will be curious enough to ask where you got the design, perhaps another book
or even a set of plans is sold and the cycle continues. Some of Payson's
books have been around a long time and continue generating income in this
way, especially from those who buy direct from him. And let's face it, for
many of us boatbuilding is a sort of addiction - if they give you the little
stuff for the price of the book, then you get hooked and come back around
looking for 'the hard stuff' and having to buy the plans! For the larger,
more complex designs, you get far more than you pay for, and if you aren't
willing to part with your money for plans then you must know you'll pay in
other ways; so in a way I think it's self-enforcing. In the end it comes
down to what one is most comfortable with - both the builder and the
designer. If someone does ask, I'm certain Mr. Bolger can articulate it far
better than I am able to.
As for me, after seeing and rowing David Cassidy's Elegant Punt at the
Champlain messabout, I've decided to build one as a tender to my yet-unbuilt
micro. I'm sure I could build Elegant Punt for the cost of the wood - just
xerox a copy of the plans from the book in the library - but before I do
I'll send a check to Payson and buy his book, and probably buy the plans as
well. My micro drawings were purchased directly from Bolger (signed copy at
my request), and a couple questions answered graciously, quickly, via FAX.
Of the 4 canoes and kayaks I've built, I've designed a boat, ripped off an
existing commercial design, replicated a museum piece from a drawing in a
book, and bought plans - and I can tell you, plans are one of the best
bargains going, on many different levels. In this modern world of big
corporate amoebas swallowing up everything in sight, I feel we have to do
what we can to show our appreciation and support to the individuals
responsible for giving us our joy, otherwise we'll all be buying identical
rotomolded plastic dinghies from West Marine and the world will be a far
less interesting place.
Paul L. (stepping down off soapbox...)
Hi All -
I've recently joined the Bolger Web and love it. I do have one
problem that I'm sure some member can streighten me out on.
Is there a Home Page with archives, design updates etc? I'd
like to add it to my Favorites or address book. If I go to Yahoo I just get
a Yahoo Page that lets me sign up and encourages me to open my own web page.
Any help would be appreciated.
Aloha - Jack Spoering - Ft. Lauderdale
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've recently joined the Bolger Web and love it. I do have one
problem that I'm sure some member can streighten me out on.
Is there a Home Page with archives, design updates etc? I'd
like to add it to my Favorites or address book. If I go to Yahoo I just get
a Yahoo Page that lets me sign up and encourages me to open my own web page.
Any help would be appreciated.
Aloha - Jack Spoering - Ft. Lauderdale
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I can understand why one would disagree with Bill Samson but I don't
understand the anger of the replies. I'm glad I'm not on the highway
with some of the respondents to this board. What's up?
Bob Chamberland
understand the anger of the replies. I'm glad I'm not on the highway
with some of the respondents to this board. What's up?
Bob Chamberland
For a variety of reasons last year, I got the fever to build a
small sailboat. Not knowing where to start, I searched the internet,
found Wooden Boats, ordered their catalog, spotted Instant Boats by
Harold Payson (whom I had never heard of) and ordered the book.
Reading the book, I found a chapter "Building Teal Step by Step",
complete with plans, albeit very small. Now I've been building things
out of wood all my life, from toy boats to furniture to houses, and
I took this as an obvious invitation to go ahead and build the Teal
(that was, after all, what I had been looking for), based upon what
Mr. Payson was about to tell me. And he tells everything, each step,
and gives dimensions. At no point does he say 'you really should buy
the plans', so why would I think that he did not mean for me to go
ahead and build the teal based on what he presented in his book?
I've just flipped through Instant Boats again, and unless I have
missed it, there is no place where he encourages the reader to buy
plans. There is one simple line, at the bottom of the inside back
cover, that says 'Full scale plans for the boats in this book are
available from the author.' I think that's to his credit, he
obviously is not trying to push another product onto the customer.
So I built the teal because it was something I could shove into the
back of a pickup truck (I wasn't ready yet for trailering). In doing
so, I gained a great appreciation for what Mr. Payson is offering -
and Mr. Bolger, for such a simple little elegant design, although I
still didn't know much about him yet.
The fever rekindled this year, I scanned the internet some more,
and discovered this Bolger discussion group. I also discovered the
Lake Champlain Messabout, and met some other Bolgerites. I'm now a
fan. I'm already planning to build a bigger sailboat - possibly a
Micro, thanks to the inspiration of Peter Lenihan. Will I buy the
plans? Absolutely, I'd be a fool not to, especially if I can gain Phil
Bolger's personal input when I need it. I will buy his plans, not
a cheap copy, because it's his intellectual property - but not because
I feel an obligation to support him financially (although I don't mind
doing that). He's a businessman and has made his own decisions about
how he wants to do business and how he wants to put his product on the
market. I like the product, I'll buy it. Incidentally, I just bought
Boats With An Open Mind, I love it.
I'm sorry he's been taken advantage of by one agent, but those
things happen in business, everywhere, all the time. It's the risk
one takes.
I resent the notion that I have somehow picked his pocket by
building from the book. There are thousands of self-help and how-to
books out there, sold with the understanding that the reader has payed
his dues and can use the information in the book as he sees fit
(outside of copyright infringement). I think the original model for
this is Popular Mechanics. Generations of do-it-yourselfers have
built millions of contraptions based on the articles and drawings in
that publication. The first boat I ever saw built was a kayak my
father made based on a plan in that magazine. Nobody ever suggested
that he couldn't because he was somehow cheating the publisher, author
or the designer.
The whole premise of how-to books is the promise that 'you can do
this'. So why shouldn't I? Don't want me to do it, don't try to
encourage me by publishing the book and don't take my money. I bought
the book and the sale of that promise and encouragement is one of the
ways that the publishers and authors make their living. (And I know
authors and designers make far less than the publishers.)
Just so nobody misunderstands me, I am now a big fan of Bolger and
Payson and will support them in the reasonable way of buying their
products - as my needs dictate - and by recommending them to others.
Don Craig
small sailboat. Not knowing where to start, I searched the internet,
found Wooden Boats, ordered their catalog, spotted Instant Boats by
Harold Payson (whom I had never heard of) and ordered the book.
Reading the book, I found a chapter "Building Teal Step by Step",
complete with plans, albeit very small. Now I've been building things
out of wood all my life, from toy boats to furniture to houses, and
I took this as an obvious invitation to go ahead and build the Teal
(that was, after all, what I had been looking for), based upon what
Mr. Payson was about to tell me. And he tells everything, each step,
and gives dimensions. At no point does he say 'you really should buy
the plans', so why would I think that he did not mean for me to go
ahead and build the teal based on what he presented in his book?
I've just flipped through Instant Boats again, and unless I have
missed it, there is no place where he encourages the reader to buy
plans. There is one simple line, at the bottom of the inside back
cover, that says 'Full scale plans for the boats in this book are
available from the author.' I think that's to his credit, he
obviously is not trying to push another product onto the customer.
So I built the teal because it was something I could shove into the
back of a pickup truck (I wasn't ready yet for trailering). In doing
so, I gained a great appreciation for what Mr. Payson is offering -
and Mr. Bolger, for such a simple little elegant design, although I
still didn't know much about him yet.
The fever rekindled this year, I scanned the internet some more,
and discovered this Bolger discussion group. I also discovered the
Lake Champlain Messabout, and met some other Bolgerites. I'm now a
fan. I'm already planning to build a bigger sailboat - possibly a
Micro, thanks to the inspiration of Peter Lenihan. Will I buy the
plans? Absolutely, I'd be a fool not to, especially if I can gain Phil
Bolger's personal input when I need it. I will buy his plans, not
a cheap copy, because it's his intellectual property - but not because
I feel an obligation to support him financially (although I don't mind
doing that). He's a businessman and has made his own decisions about
how he wants to do business and how he wants to put his product on the
market. I like the product, I'll buy it. Incidentally, I just bought
Boats With An Open Mind, I love it.
I'm sorry he's been taken advantage of by one agent, but those
things happen in business, everywhere, all the time. It's the risk
one takes.
I resent the notion that I have somehow picked his pocket by
building from the book. There are thousands of self-help and how-to
books out there, sold with the understanding that the reader has payed
his dues and can use the information in the book as he sees fit
(outside of copyright infringement). I think the original model for
this is Popular Mechanics. Generations of do-it-yourselfers have
built millions of contraptions based on the articles and drawings in
that publication. The first boat I ever saw built was a kayak my
father made based on a plan in that magazine. Nobody ever suggested
that he couldn't because he was somehow cheating the publisher, author
or the designer.
The whole premise of how-to books is the promise that 'you can do
this'. So why shouldn't I? Don't want me to do it, don't try to
encourage me by publishing the book and don't take my money. I bought
the book and the sale of that promise and encouragement is one of the
ways that the publishers and authors make their living. (And I know
authors and designers make far less than the publishers.)
Just so nobody misunderstands me, I am now a big fan of Bolger and
Payson and will support them in the reasonable way of buying their
products - as my needs dictate - and by recommending them to others.
Don Craig
--- In bolger@y..., willsamson@y... wrote:
> Payson himself strongly encourages purchasers of his books to buy
the
> full-size drawings, though he acknowleges that it is possible to
> build straight from the book.
>
> At the end of the day, it's cheapness that annoys me. Unlike most
> other designers, Phil has been very open and generous about
> publishing his drawings in his own books and in Payson's books. No
> doubt he receives royalties from these books, but it's not going to
> make him a rich man. Let's not repay his open-handedness by
> encouraging penny-pinching.
>
> Bill
> If they didn't want people building from plans they'd simply leaveHe does exactly that in many cases.
> out the dimension diagrams of the frames and panel expansions.
PHV
Excellent point and too bloody obvious to see.
If they didn't want people building from plans they'd simply leave
out the dimension diagrams of the frames and panel expansions. They'd
just include cartoons, diagrams and drawings, even photos of work
underway or completed boats. Still an interesting article or book,
like Devlins, and others, who make you drool but keep the pudding.
That said, I'll always buy the plans for any but the simplest of
projects. They cost less than a sheet of marine ply and prevent the
ruining of same.
I'm off to write a book on "Rustproofing With A Closed Mind" and make
my Numph air powered.
If they didn't want people building from plans they'd simply leave
out the dimension diagrams of the frames and panel expansions. They'd
just include cartoons, diagrams and drawings, even photos of work
underway or completed boats. Still an interesting article or book,
like Devlins, and others, who make you drool but keep the pudding.
That said, I'll always buy the plans for any but the simplest of
projects. They cost less than a sheet of marine ply and prevent the
ruining of same.
I'm off to write a book on "Rustproofing With A Closed Mind" and make
my Numph air powered.
> WARNING: Climbing on soapbox!is
>
> I am sick and tired of hearing this BS. Buy the plans or not, it
> your choice, but don't knock anyone who doesn't make the samechoice.
>plans
> I like Mr. Bolgers designs and will some day probably buy some
> from him. Up until now I have built from the books.
We've gone round on this argument a number of times now, and to
prevent future flare-ups maybe it could all be put to rest by one fax
to Mr. Bolger himself, saying --
"Mr. Bolger, we were all discussing the ethics of building boats
straight from your books vs. buying full-size plans. How do you feel
about it?"
Anyone want to send it?
On a completely different subject -- see the latest issue of Messing
About in Boats for a photo of Mr. Bolger from the 50s. Quite
different from the image I usually have of him.
All best,
Garth
prevent future flare-ups maybe it could all be put to rest by one fax
to Mr. Bolger himself, saying --
"Mr. Bolger, we were all discussing the ethics of building boats
straight from your books vs. buying full-size plans. How do you feel
about it?"
Anyone want to send it?
On a completely different subject -- see the latest issue of Messing
About in Boats for a photo of Mr. Bolger from the 50s. Quite
different from the image I usually have of him.
All best,
Garth
WARNING: Climbing on soapbox!
I am sick and tired of hearing this BS. Buy the plans or not, it is
your choice, but don't knock anyone who doesn't make the same choice.
I like Mr. Bolgers designs and will some day probably buy some plans
from him. Up until now I have built from the books.
I am sick and tired of hearing this BS. Buy the plans or not, it is
your choice, but don't knock anyone who doesn't make the same choice.
I like Mr. Bolgers designs and will some day probably buy some plans
from him. Up until now I have built from the books.
--- In bolger@y..., willsamson@y... wrote:
> Payson himself strongly encourages purchasers of his books to buy
> the full-size drawings,
Encourages, not requires.
Snip
> At the end of the day, it's cheapness that annoys me.
If cheapness annoys you, then you should hate Bolgers designs. I
mean come on, making the frames in the Nymph in two pieces just to
get it built with two sheets. How cheap can you get? Bolger strives
to get the absolute most out of the number of sheets of ply in all of
his small designs. I can't think of how he could be any more frugal.
Note that this doesn't bother me, since I think that frugality is a
virtue and part of the reason I admire his designs.
> Unlike most
> other designers, Phil has been very open and generous about
> publishing his drawings in his own books and in Payson's books. No
> doubt he receives royalties from these books, but it's not going to
> make him a rich man. Let's not repay his open-handedness by
> encouraging penny-pinching.
Since he offered the plans up in the book and specifically allows the
plans to be used to build a boat, it is perfectly OK to build from
them. HE made a business decision to offer the plans this way. HE
collects royalties from the books. If it wasn't for the books, I bet
the majority of us would have never heard of Phil or Dynamite. I
know I wouldn't have.
Did he make enough this way? He must think so since he didn't quit
after the first book. Maybe he made "enough money", and maybe he
just wanted to see more of his boats built. But one way or the other
he did it the way he did because it benefited him in some way,
financially or otherwise.
Is it wise to buy the plans? Probably, at least on the more complex
boats. Is there anything wrong with building from the book?
Absolutely not!
I think that if you want to support Bolger and Payson that is
great. Heck, send them each a check just to say thanks if you
want. I on the other hand will not.
Those of us who build from the book aren't short changing Phil or
Dynamite. We are using a book (that they were paid for) in the
manner in which it was advertised and intended. If they are being
shortchanged they did it to themselves and I am sure that they are
smart enough to not do that.
Pete Staehling
BTW: On the smallest and simplest designs I don't see where you would
benefit from any further plans than what is in the books. On the
more complex designs I would not even consider building from the book
and would buy the plans.
This thread has been confusing to me from the start. If the plans
weren't meant to be used, why are they in the book? They were placed
there to be used...it's as simple as that. You want better ones...then
buy them.
Cliff
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/mmmkkk/
(Last of the Red Hot DJs)
weren't meant to be used, why are they in the book? They were placed
there to be used...it's as simple as that. You want better ones...then
buy them.
Cliff
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/mmmkkk/
(Last of the Red Hot DJs)
Payson himself strongly encourages purchasers of his books to buy the
full-size drawings, though he acknowleges that it is possible to
build straight from the book. Payson is therefore on Phil's side -
I'd have thought that was obvious.
Does anyone else think I was 'implying' that Payson was short-
changing Bolger?
In this case, I believe that building straight from the book, while
possible, is doing nobody any favours - but that's going over old
ground again.
At the end of the day, it's cheapness that annoys me. Unlike most
other designers, Phil has been very open and generous about
publishing his drawings in his own books and in Payson's books. No
doubt he receives royalties from these books, but it's not going to
make him a rich man. Let's not repay his open-handedness by
encouraging penny-pinching.
Bill
full-size drawings, though he acknowleges that it is possible to
build straight from the book. Payson is therefore on Phil's side -
I'd have thought that was obvious.
Does anyone else think I was 'implying' that Payson was short-
changing Bolger?
In this case, I believe that building straight from the book, while
possible, is doing nobody any favours - but that's going over old
ground again.
At the end of the day, it's cheapness that annoys me. Unlike most
other designers, Phil has been very open and generous about
publishing his drawings in his own books and in Payson's books. No
doubt he receives royalties from these books, but it's not going to
make him a rich man. Let's not repay his open-handedness by
encouraging penny-pinching.
Bill
--- In bolger@y..., roger99a@h... wrote:
> Jeffbob wrote:
> "How feasible is it to build from the plans in Payson's book(s)?"
>
> Bill Samson replied:
> "On a serious note, Phil Bolger has given all of us a lot of
pleasure
> and it
> seems to me to be wrong to try and get around paying him his due
for
> a set
> of drawings. If everybody did that he wouldn't have stayed in
> business and
> we'd never have had the joy of studying his work and building from
his
> designs. As many of us know, Phil has told us how he was
> systematically
> short-changed over the years by one agent for his designs - Let's
not
> add to
> the injustice."
>
> What this reply implies to me is that building from the book would
> add to the injustices already perpetrated upon PCB. Would you read
> this differently?
>
> Roger S
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "Samson Family" <Bill.Samson@t...> wrote:
> > >You seem to imply that Phil Bolger recieves or recieved no
> > >compensation for his participation in Payson's Instant Boat
books.
> >
> > If you'd care to read, again, what I wrote, I said (and implied)
no
> such
> > thing! In case you are ignorant of the fact, Dynamite (for whom
I
> have the
> > highest regard, and from whom I buy plans) is one of MANY agents
> selling
> > Bolger plans.
> >
> > I'm not naming names here, because I have no first-hand evidence
of
> the
> > dispute, but if you'd care to scan the archives you'll find out
> what I'm
> > talking about. It's also well documented in back-numbers of
> Messing About
> > in Boats. Phil is a good friend of mine, and I accept his word
> that one
> > agent for his designs was not paying him his royalties.
> >
> > I will simply reiterate that Phil Bolger and Friends will only
> enter into
> > correspondence with builders ( and 'hold their hands' ) if they
> have bought
> > their plans direct from them. " . . . we're still spending much
> time we can
> > ill spare servicing [the offending party's] customers. It is
> tailing off to
> > some extent and we hope the lasting consequences won't be
severe".
> I hope
> > Phil doesn't mind me quoting from recent correspondence with me.
> >
> > Phil has done more than anybody in history to bring boatbuilding
> within the
> > reach of not-very-talented woodworkers like myself. We all owe
him
> a great
> > debt of gratitude. Personally, I resent any attempt to deny him
> his due.
> >
> > Anybody else feel this way?
> >
> > Bill Samson
Hi Bill,
I would imagine that there are many books on many subjects that an
individual might use to replicate a project highlighted in one of
those books.And then,there are books designed specifically to allow
the reader to build directly from them,such as the "How to
build(design name here)".In these books,it is often stated that one
could build using only the information provided in the
book.However,the author(s) usually recommend purchasing the full sized
plans to facilitate things.Finally,there are those wonderfully
detailed and drafted full sized plans which you can take to bed,to
work,to the coffee shop,boat shop,place of worship,local pub and drool
over endlessly while one builds the boat piecemeal in ones head.With
any kind of luck,a boat may one day be built from!Once the object of
ones dreams has been launched,those same plans can then be
framed/laminated and subsequently hung,at eye level, directly across
from ones favorite seat.
Like a good book,they can become a source of endless pleasure.A
testament to ones past efforts and dreams.And yes,they are the real
number,direct from your favorite designers own board.
When compared to the final all up costs of your dream boat,the
price of plans seems almost ridiculously low.Add to that the bounty of
pleasure the end product will provide to the intrepid builder and
damned it all,you have yourself about the best bang for the buck
going!
So,in brief Bill,I do whole heartedly agree that good and proper
due should be paid to the designer.Not to lessen the challenge of
building straight from a book but rather for all the above mentioned
reasons.
Just in case anyone gets too tight on this issue,I will confess
that having real full sized plans in my hands makes me feel like I
actually know what the hell I am doing :-D...........
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,sorting through a ton of pictures and writing up my
experience attending the 1st Annual Lake Champlain Bolger
Messabout,while fending off my Pesky Crew who insists on going
boating,again and again,from the twilight shores of the
St.Lawrence........
I would imagine that there are many books on many subjects that an
individual might use to replicate a project highlighted in one of
those books.And then,there are books designed specifically to allow
the reader to build directly from them,such as the "How to
build(design name here)".In these books,it is often stated that one
could build using only the information provided in the
book.However,the author(s) usually recommend purchasing the full sized
plans to facilitate things.Finally,there are those wonderfully
detailed and drafted full sized plans which you can take to bed,to
work,to the coffee shop,boat shop,place of worship,local pub and drool
over endlessly while one builds the boat piecemeal in ones head.With
any kind of luck,a boat may one day be built from!Once the object of
ones dreams has been launched,those same plans can then be
framed/laminated and subsequently hung,at eye level, directly across
from ones favorite seat.
Like a good book,they can become a source of endless pleasure.A
testament to ones past efforts and dreams.And yes,they are the real
number,direct from your favorite designers own board.
When compared to the final all up costs of your dream boat,the
price of plans seems almost ridiculously low.Add to that the bounty of
pleasure the end product will provide to the intrepid builder and
damned it all,you have yourself about the best bang for the buck
going!
So,in brief Bill,I do whole heartedly agree that good and proper
due should be paid to the designer.Not to lessen the challenge of
building straight from a book but rather for all the above mentioned
reasons.
Just in case anyone gets too tight on this issue,I will confess
that having real full sized plans in my hands makes me feel like I
actually know what the hell I am doing :-D...........
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,sorting through a ton of pictures and writing up my
experience attending the 1st Annual Lake Champlain Bolger
Messabout,while fending off my Pesky Crew who insists on going
boating,again and again,from the twilight shores of the
St.Lawrence........
--- In bolger@y..., "Samson Family" <Bill.Samson@t...> wrote:
> >You seem to imply that Phil Bolger recieves or recieved no
> >compensation for his participation in Payson's Instant Boat books.
>
> If you'd care to read, again, what I wrote, I said (and implied) no
such
> thing! In case you are ignorant of the fact, Dynamite (for whom I
have the
> highest regard, and from whom I buy plans) is one of MANY agents
selling
> Bolger plans.
>
> I'm not naming names here, because I have no first-hand evidence of
the
> dispute, but if you'd care to scan the archives you'll find out what
I'm
> talking about. It's also well documented in back-numbers of Messing
About
> in Boats. Phil is a good friend of mine, and I accept his word that
one
> agent for his designs was not paying him his royalties.
>
> I will simply reiterate that Phil Bolger and Friends will only enter
into
> correspondence with builders ( and 'hold their hands' ) if they have
bought
> their plans direct from them. " . . . we're still spending much
time we can
> ill spare servicing [the offending party's] customers. It is
tailing off to
> some extent and we hope the lasting consequences won't be severe".
I hope
> Phil doesn't mind me quoting from recent correspondence with me.
>
> Phil has done more than anybody in history to bring boatbuilding
within the
> reach of not-very-talented woodworkers like myself. We all owe him
a great
> debt of gratitude. Personally, I resent any attempt to deny him his
due.
>
> Anybody else feel this way?
>
> Bill Samson
Jeffbob wrote:
"How feasible is it to build from the plans in Payson's book(s)?"
Bill Samson replied:
"On a serious note, Phil Bolger has given all of us a lot of pleasure
and it
seems to me to be wrong to try and get around paying him his due for
a set
of drawings. If everybody did that he wouldn't have stayed in
business and
we'd never have had the joy of studying his work and building from his
designs. As many of us know, Phil has told us how he was
systematically
short-changed over the years by one agent for his designs - Let's not
add to
the injustice."
What this reply implies to me is that building from the book would
add to the injustices already perpetrated upon PCB. Would you read
this differently?
Roger S
"How feasible is it to build from the plans in Payson's book(s)?"
Bill Samson replied:
"On a serious note, Phil Bolger has given all of us a lot of pleasure
and it
seems to me to be wrong to try and get around paying him his due for
a set
of drawings. If everybody did that he wouldn't have stayed in
business and
we'd never have had the joy of studying his work and building from his
designs. As many of us know, Phil has told us how he was
systematically
short-changed over the years by one agent for his designs - Let's not
add to
the injustice."
What this reply implies to me is that building from the book would
add to the injustices already perpetrated upon PCB. Would you read
this differently?
Roger S
--- In bolger@y..., "Samson Family" <Bill.Samson@t...> wrote:
> >You seem to imply that Phil Bolger recieves or recieved no
> >compensation for his participation in Payson's Instant Boat books.
>
> If you'd care to read, again, what I wrote, I said (and implied) no
such
> thing! In case you are ignorant of the fact, Dynamite (for whom I
have the
> highest regard, and from whom I buy plans) is one of MANY agents
selling
> Bolger plans.
>
> I'm not naming names here, because I have no first-hand evidence of
the
> dispute, but if you'd care to scan the archives you'll find out
what I'm
> talking about. It's also well documented in back-numbers of
Messing About
> in Boats. Phil is a good friend of mine, and I accept his word
that one
> agent for his designs was not paying him his royalties.
>
> I will simply reiterate that Phil Bolger and Friends will only
enter into
> correspondence with builders ( and 'hold their hands' ) if they
have bought
> their plans direct from them. " . . . we're still spending much
time we can
> ill spare servicing [the offending party's] customers. It is
tailing off to
> some extent and we hope the lasting consequences won't be severe".
I hope
> Phil doesn't mind me quoting from recent correspondence with me.
>
> Phil has done more than anybody in history to bring boatbuilding
within the
> reach of not-very-talented woodworkers like myself. We all owe him
a great
> debt of gratitude. Personally, I resent any attempt to deny him
his due.
>
> Anybody else feel this way?
>
> Bill Samson
I agree with you all, it's far better to buy from the source. I
simply meant to say that the source included the books. I enjoy may
faxed conversations with Phil and have found Dynamite a pleasure to
talk with.
As a businessman, I know that both authors accept and encourage
building from the books. Personally, I'd love to publish a best
seller on rustproofing, that's where my boat building money comes
from. The increased exposure would really help sales. Building
directly from the book is really only feasable for the smaller,
simpler designs. The full scale plans and key are a nessesity for
more intracate plans. I doubt I'd ever finish my Micro if I was
working from Boats With An Open Mind.
I'm sure that a successful launch of a Nymph or Elegant Punt often
leads to the purchase of plans for a more ambitious project. It
worked that way for me. If I ever get to Gloucester I'll ask the
wizard. Bruce Hector
simply meant to say that the source included the books. I enjoy may
faxed conversations with Phil and have found Dynamite a pleasure to
talk with.
As a businessman, I know that both authors accept and encourage
building from the books. Personally, I'd love to publish a best
seller on rustproofing, that's where my boat building money comes
from. The increased exposure would really help sales. Building
directly from the book is really only feasable for the smaller,
simpler designs. The full scale plans and key are a nessesity for
more intracate plans. I doubt I'd ever finish my Micro if I was
working from Boats With An Open Mind.
I'm sure that a successful launch of a Nymph or Elegant Punt often
leads to the purchase of plans for a more ambitious project. It
worked that way for me. If I ever get to Gloucester I'll ask the
wizard. Bruce Hector
On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Samson Family wrote:
rather northerly, the other rather southerly. Different plans, generally,
perhaps only one overlapping.
> I accept his word that one agent for his designs was not paying himActually, we know it's at least two, both west of the Mississippi, one
> his royalties.
rather northerly, the other rather southerly. Different plans, generally,
perhaps only one overlapping.
> Phil has done more than anybody in history to bring boatbuildingCertainly I do.
> within the reach of not-very-talented woodworkers like myself. We all
> owe him a great debt of gratitude. Personally, I resent any attempt
> to deny him his due. Anybody else feel this way?
Your right in that we have hashed this out repeatedly with the group.
I've also gotten letters from PB&F stating that Mr. Payson was the only
legitimate seller of his plans and that if I wanted, I could get them from
Mr. Payson as well as himself.
I've bought plans from both and have found them both to be very helpful and
eager to satisfy the do-it-yourself builders. Unfortunately early on I
purchased plans from an "alternate" source and got poorly copied plans and
short changed Mr. Bolger in the process.
I know better now. As with Jim Michalak, they work hard to introduce and
make boat building easy and fun for us backyard builders. Copying or
getting plans any other way seems counter productive to everyone's goals.
You can build directly out of a book but once you've built from a full set
of plans, trying to read them from a book is a pain. They really are worth
the little extra to purchase.
Jeff
I've also gotten letters from PB&F stating that Mr. Payson was the only
legitimate seller of his plans and that if I wanted, I could get them from
Mr. Payson as well as himself.
I've bought plans from both and have found them both to be very helpful and
eager to satisfy the do-it-yourself builders. Unfortunately early on I
purchased plans from an "alternate" source and got poorly copied plans and
short changed Mr. Bolger in the process.
I know better now. As with Jim Michalak, they work hard to introduce and
make boat building easy and fun for us backyard builders. Copying or
getting plans any other way seems counter productive to everyone's goals.
You can build directly out of a book but once you've built from a full set
of plans, trying to read them from a book is a pain. They really are worth
the little extra to purchase.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Samson Family" <Bill.Samson@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Digest Number 614
> >You seem to imply that Phil Bolger recieves or recieved no
> >compensation for his participation in Payson's Instant Boat books.
>
> If you'd care to read, again, what I wrote, I said (and implied) no such
> thing! In case you are ignorant of the fact, Dynamite (for whom I have
the
> highest regard, and from whom I buy plans) is one of MANY agents selling
> Bolger plans.
>
> I'm not naming names here, because I have no first-hand evidence of the
> dispute, but if you'd care to scan the archives you'll find out what I'm
> talking about. It's also well documented in back-numbers of Messing About
> in Boats. Phil is a good friend of mine, and I accept his word that one
> agent for his designs was not paying him his royalties.
>
> I will simply reiterate that Phil Bolger and Friends will only enter into
> correspondence with builders ( and 'hold their hands' ) if they have bough
t
> their plans direct from them. " . . . we're still spending much time we
can
> ill spare servicing [the offending party's] customers. It is tailing off
to
> some extent and we hope the lasting consequences won't be severe". I hope
> Phil doesn't mind me quoting from recent correspondence with me.
>
> Phil has done more than anybody in history to bring boatbuilding within
the
> reach of not-very-talented woodworkers like myself. We all owe him a
great
> debt of gratitude. Personally, I resent any attempt to deny him his due.
>
> Anybody else feel this way?
>
> Bill Samson
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>You seem to imply that Phil Bolger recieves or recieved noIf you'd care to read, again, what I wrote, I said (and implied) no such
>compensation for his participation in Payson's Instant Boat books.
thing! In case you are ignorant of the fact, Dynamite (for whom I have the
highest regard, and from whom I buy plans) is one of MANY agents selling
Bolger plans.
I'm not naming names here, because I have no first-hand evidence of the
dispute, but if you'd care to scan the archives you'll find out what I'm
talking about. It's also well documented in back-numbers of Messing About
in Boats. Phil is a good friend of mine, and I accept his word that one
agent for his designs was not paying him his royalties.
I will simply reiterate that Phil Bolger and Friends will only enter into
correspondence with builders ( and 'hold their hands' ) if they have bought
their plans direct from them. " . . . we're still spending much time we can
ill spare servicing [the offending party's] customers. It is tailing off to
some extent and we hope the lasting consequences won't be severe". I hope
Phil doesn't mind me quoting from recent correspondence with me.
Phil has done more than anybody in history to bring boatbuilding within the
reach of not-very-talented woodworkers like myself. We all owe him a great
debt of gratitude. Personally, I resent any attempt to deny him his due.
Anybody else feel this way?
Bill Samson