Re: Surf or Gypsy - any comments?
--- In bolger@y..., John Kennedy <john.kennedy@g...> wrote:
I
can comment on centerboard VS daggerboard (or lee-board for that
matter).
In an earlier existence I sailed Snipes which have dagger boards. The
dagger board was impossible when beaching (as was the rudder). When
fully up the dagger board hung up the boom. I have recently built
"Teal". With the shallow water conditions we have right now on Grand
Traverse Bay it is necessary to row out into the bay and then rig
everything. I am abandoning the sail rig and use my Teal as a very
nice rowboat.
In an earlier posting I believe you said sailing on "Sloughs". To me
sloughs means shallow water, sand bars etc. In your situation I would
opt for a centerboard. The only complication is a larger case. It
might have to be moved forward a bit. Someone else may want to talk
to
that point. I believe that the balance of the rig at board half up
would be different with CB than with daggerboard or leeboard. A
centerboard case is no big deal with epoxy construction. On my only
centerboard case I glassed the "inside" of all panels of the case
before I assembled it. Of course a CB case takes up more interior
space; can these boats accomodate that leaving room for
passengers? Good luck S or G.
Bob Chamberland
> I've been looking at both Surf and Gypsy.Hi John, I'm not really familiar with S or G except for pictures but
>
> Can anyone offer any comments comparing one to the other, as to:
>
>(b) centre-board, lee-board or daggerboard
>
> (d) ease of building
> (e) passenger-carrying ability and comfort
>
> Many thanks.
I
can comment on centerboard VS daggerboard (or lee-board for that
matter).
In an earlier existence I sailed Snipes which have dagger boards. The
dagger board was impossible when beaching (as was the rudder). When
fully up the dagger board hung up the boom. I have recently built
"Teal". With the shallow water conditions we have right now on Grand
Traverse Bay it is necessary to row out into the bay and then rig
everything. I am abandoning the sail rig and use my Teal as a very
nice rowboat.
In an earlier posting I believe you said sailing on "Sloughs". To me
sloughs means shallow water, sand bars etc. In your situation I would
opt for a centerboard. The only complication is a larger case. It
might have to be moved forward a bit. Someone else may want to talk
to
that point. I believe that the balance of the rig at board half up
would be different with CB than with daggerboard or leeboard. A
centerboard case is no big deal with epoxy construction. On my only
centerboard case I glassed the "inside" of all panels of the case
before I assembled it. Of course a CB case takes up more interior
space; can these boats accomodate that leaving room for
passengers? Good luck S or G.
Bob Chamberland
Nothing mysterious, it's just a lot easier to get the board out when
the boat is bouncing around if there's more clearance. One of the
only times I dumped my Gypsy was running downwind in a good breeze
while trying to steer and pull up the daggerboard simultaneously so I
could beach the boat. That's why I like centerboards better. The
modification doesn't affect strength significantly, it makes that
long daggerboard a little lighter, and the cutaway section is inside
the CB trunk, so it seemed like a good idea.
the boat is bouncing around if there's more clearance. One of the
only times I dumped my Gypsy was running downwind in a good breeze
while trying to steer and pull up the daggerboard simultaneously so I
could beach the boat. That's why I like centerboards better. The
modification doesn't affect strength significantly, it makes that
long daggerboard a little lighter, and the cutaway section is inside
the CB trunk, so it seemed like a good idea.
--- In bolger@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote:
> I thought the daggerboard case is offset to the side to take care
> of this. Can you explicate in greater detail?
> One tip: cutI thought the daggerboard case of offset to the side to take care of
> off the front upper corner of the boat so that it misses the mast
> when you're pulling it up.
this. Can you explicate in greater detail?
PHV
Well, I have limited experience with Surf, but I can tell you a lot
about Gypsy, having built one as my first boat and sailed it for many
years. So, in order:
She sails wonderfully. Moderate weather helm, planes on a reach in a
fresh breeze, no significant vices. She's a bit undercanvassed for
light air, particularly with a heavy load; the other side of that is
exhilarating performance when it's blowing. No need to reef her
(although I'm 6'3" and 240#, so that may make some difference). I
think a Gypsy would be faster than Surf in almost all conditions, but
not by a lot.
Some suggestions for the rig, which will work for both boats: Luff
tension is critical for windward performance. Because there's no
halyard, the downhaul becomes more important. I'm now setting up
another boat with the same rig, and a 3-part downhaul tackle works
very well. Some folks have used laminated wishbone booms with
success - this should theoretically give better performance on
the "bad tack", but I don't have any experience myself. I used a
nice douglas fir closet pole for the sprit - worked fine. Snotter
tension varies the draft in the sail, so make it easy to get tight,
and easy to adjust as needed.
The daggerboard in the Gypsy is very efficient and not at all hard to
build, but it's rather a pain to pull up when beaching, or for
shallow water. I wish she had a pivoting centerboard. One tip: cut
off the front upper corner of the boat so that it misses the mast
when you're pulling it up. I'm not fond of leeboards; they're less
efficient for a given area because they're surface-piercing foils,
they collect every but of floating debris they you sail by, and I
think they're ugly. OTOH, they're easy to build and use, so take
your choice
Cost to build will vary some depending on what materials you use.
I'd guess that Surf will be about 75-80% of the cost of Gypsy for a
given level of quality. I used ACX fir and polyester resin (and be
very sure you understand the difference between layup and finishing
resin if you decide to use polyester), although now I think I'd use
marine plywood and epoxy, if only because of the smell. If I were to
build her again, I'd get a sheet of 3/4 plywood and use it for all
the frames, cut them down so they resemble ordinary sawn frames.
It'd be easier to build because you can edge-fasten into the thicker
plywood, and would leave more room in the boat.
Surf is simpler to build, but it's a simpler hull shape; three panels
instead of five, and glue-and-screw construction instead of taped-
seam. There is a lot more work with unpleasant sticky goop involved
with Gypsy. OTOH, the fully-sheathed hull is stronger and more
durable. IMHO, Gypsy is a MUCH better-looking boat; very striking on
the water. She's the example I use when arguing with traditionalists
who say that taped-seam plywood boats are ugly.
Passenger-carrying ability is probably about equal; both are small
boats and are happiest with one or two people on board. I've had
four adults in the Gypsy, but only in smooth water, and it's awfully
crowded. The Gypsy's hull shape will tolerate an overload better.
Comfort depends on how you arrange seating. As drawn, the Gypsy has
a definite edge, with the good rowing thwart and side benches for
sailing. OTOH, you could build similar amenities into Surf. Gypsy
has more room, definitely. For rowing, Gypsy is wonderful with one
person. It's just about impossible to trim her properly for rowing
with two.
One final point - Gypsy desperately needs a skeg for rowing, at least
if you ever want to go in a straight line. Cartopper, a similar but
later design has on you can use as a model.
Anyway, I hope this will be helpful, if a bit long-winded. I like
the Gypsy very much.
Keith Wilson
about Gypsy, having built one as my first boat and sailed it for many
years. So, in order:
She sails wonderfully. Moderate weather helm, planes on a reach in a
fresh breeze, no significant vices. She's a bit undercanvassed for
light air, particularly with a heavy load; the other side of that is
exhilarating performance when it's blowing. No need to reef her
(although I'm 6'3" and 240#, so that may make some difference). I
think a Gypsy would be faster than Surf in almost all conditions, but
not by a lot.
Some suggestions for the rig, which will work for both boats: Luff
tension is critical for windward performance. Because there's no
halyard, the downhaul becomes more important. I'm now setting up
another boat with the same rig, and a 3-part downhaul tackle works
very well. Some folks have used laminated wishbone booms with
success - this should theoretically give better performance on
the "bad tack", but I don't have any experience myself. I used a
nice douglas fir closet pole for the sprit - worked fine. Snotter
tension varies the draft in the sail, so make it easy to get tight,
and easy to adjust as needed.
The daggerboard in the Gypsy is very efficient and not at all hard to
build, but it's rather a pain to pull up when beaching, or for
shallow water. I wish she had a pivoting centerboard. One tip: cut
off the front upper corner of the boat so that it misses the mast
when you're pulling it up. I'm not fond of leeboards; they're less
efficient for a given area because they're surface-piercing foils,
they collect every but of floating debris they you sail by, and I
think they're ugly. OTOH, they're easy to build and use, so take
your choice
Cost to build will vary some depending on what materials you use.
I'd guess that Surf will be about 75-80% of the cost of Gypsy for a
given level of quality. I used ACX fir and polyester resin (and be
very sure you understand the difference between layup and finishing
resin if you decide to use polyester), although now I think I'd use
marine plywood and epoxy, if only because of the smell. If I were to
build her again, I'd get a sheet of 3/4 plywood and use it for all
the frames, cut them down so they resemble ordinary sawn frames.
It'd be easier to build because you can edge-fasten into the thicker
plywood, and would leave more room in the boat.
Surf is simpler to build, but it's a simpler hull shape; three panels
instead of five, and glue-and-screw construction instead of taped-
seam. There is a lot more work with unpleasant sticky goop involved
with Gypsy. OTOH, the fully-sheathed hull is stronger and more
durable. IMHO, Gypsy is a MUCH better-looking boat; very striking on
the water. She's the example I use when arguing with traditionalists
who say that taped-seam plywood boats are ugly.
Passenger-carrying ability is probably about equal; both are small
boats and are happiest with one or two people on board. I've had
four adults in the Gypsy, but only in smooth water, and it's awfully
crowded. The Gypsy's hull shape will tolerate an overload better.
Comfort depends on how you arrange seating. As drawn, the Gypsy has
a definite edge, with the good rowing thwart and side benches for
sailing. OTOH, you could build similar amenities into Surf. Gypsy
has more room, definitely. For rowing, Gypsy is wonderful with one
person. It's just about impossible to trim her properly for rowing
with two.
One final point - Gypsy desperately needs a skeg for rowing, at least
if you ever want to go in a straight line. Cartopper, a similar but
later design has on you can use as a model.
Anyway, I hope this will be helpful, if a bit long-winded. I like
the Gypsy very much.
Keith Wilson
--- In bolger@y..., John Kennedy <john.kennedy@g...> wrote:
> I've been looking at both Surf and Gypsy.
> Can anyone offer any comments comparing one to the other, as to:
>
> (a) sailing ability
> (b) centre-board, lee-board or daggerboard
> (c) cost to build
> (d) ease of building
> (e) passenger-carrying ability and comfort
I've been looking at both Surf and Gypsy.
Can anyone offer any comments comparing one to the other, as to:
(a) sailing ability
(b) centre-board, lee-board or daggerboard
(c) cost to build
(d) ease of building
(e) passenger-carrying ability and comfort
Many thanks.
Can anyone offer any comments comparing one to the other, as to:
(a) sailing ability
(b) centre-board, lee-board or daggerboard
(c) cost to build
(d) ease of building
(e) passenger-carrying ability and comfort
Many thanks.