Re: Epoxy misinformation
I stand corrected. End of discussion. No more flames.
Bruce
Bruce
--- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:
> >
> >
> > Where's the "darn fine product" comment, Max?
> >
> >
> Message 13898, since you asked.
>Message 13898, since you asked.
>
> Where's the "darn fine product" comment, Max?
>
>
Come on guys lighten up, surely Max's last comment was humorous and designed
to try and cool the conversation a bit.
One of the joys of this Group is the lack of flames, so lets try and keep it
that way.
to try and cool the conversation a bit.
One of the joys of this Group is the lack of flames, so lets try and keep it
that way.
----- Original Message -----
From: <bgbeck55@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 10:34 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Epoxy misinformation
> --- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:
> > What I said (quite clearly) was that they "may have a darn fine
> > product." What I asked for for independant proof that their
> > products and systems were better than other people's/ company's
> > products and systems. I will not take their word for it.
>
>
>
> >" I would like you "define" exactly why Gougeon Brothers
> >knows everything there is to know about epoxy and no one else can
> >have an opposing view or opinion or experience.
> >
> >
> >Do you own stock in Gougeon Brothers?
> >
> >
> >Max "
>
>
> Where's the "darn fine product" comment, Max?
>
>
> > I go out on my boat for two days and come back and find all
> > sorts of comments attributed to me. Obviously I can not leave
> > you guys unsupervised.
> >
> Take the chip off your shoulder, Max. Make a boat out of it or
> something else useful.
>
> Bruce
> (not "supervised" by Max)
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
--- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:
something else useful.
Bruce
(not "supervised" by Max)
> What I said (quite clearly) was that they "may have a darn fineWhere's the "darn fine product" comment, Max?
> product." What I asked for for independant proof that their
> products and systems were better than other people's/ company's
> products and systems. I will not take their word for it.
>" I would like you "define" exactly why Gougeon Brothers
>knows everything there is to know about epoxy and no one else can
>have an opposing view or opinion or experience.
>
>
>Do you own stock in Gougeon Brothers?
>
>
>Max "
> I go out on my boat for two days and come back and find allTake the chip off your shoulder, Max. Make a boat out of it or
> sorts of comments attributed to me. Obviously I can not leave
> you guys unsupervised.
>
something else useful.
Bruce
(not "supervised" by Max)
-
product." What I asked for for independant proof that their
products and systems were better than other people's/ company's
products and systems. I will not take their word for it.
The comment was made that there was a lot of "misinformation" being
posted here and that if I "really wanted the straight dope" on
epoxy use, I had to get if from Gougeon or maybe System 3.
I thought the above comment should be supported, just as the
poster asked for other posters to support their comments.
Personally, I don't think I would ever epoxy without the cloth,
but that has nothing to do with Gougeon.
I go out on my boat for two days and come back and find all
sorts of comments attributed to me. Obviously I can not leave
you guys unsupervised.
Max
>They
> Max,
> You seem to be taking the Gougeons to task for their
> recommendations. Try asking the System Three people about paint.
> recommend only THEIR painting system. At least Gougeons testedWhat I said (quite clearly) was that they "may have a darn fine
> primers etc; for the benefit of the public.
> All these people are in the business. On the other hand, Ken
> Hankinson recommends encapsulation too. Last I looked, he wasn't in
> the business of selling his own brand of epoxy.
> Cheers!
> Bruce
product." What I asked for for independant proof that their
products and systems were better than other people's/ company's
products and systems. I will not take their word for it.
The comment was made that there was a lot of "misinformation" being
posted here and that if I "really wanted the straight dope" on
epoxy use, I had to get if from Gougeon or maybe System 3.
I thought the above comment should be supported, just as the
poster asked for other posters to support their comments.
Personally, I don't think I would ever epoxy without the cloth,
but that has nothing to do with Gougeon.
I go out on my boat for two days and come back and find all
sorts of comments attributed to me. Obviously I can not leave
you guys unsupervised.
Max
From my previous email
After laying my egg I found Mr Carnell's site and read his statement
on encapsulation. I could not find the quoted statement anywhere
there
but I assume this is where the idea came from. Unfortunately he
doesn't present any real data upon which to base his conclusion. My
feeling is if an epoxy barrier coat can prevent the migration of
water
into a fiberglass bottom then encapsulation ought to work. I believe
most of the Gougeon's boatbuilding was laminating veneers with epoxy
thus creating a superior "plywood" hull. The hulls were what might be
called "wood reinforced plastic". They were not building what we deal
with on this site. But if epoxy can protect a veneer why not a timber
or plywood?
In the development of their ideas for epoxy encapsulation I believe
they were building boats not necessarily selling materials. Any
boatbuilder is not going to use more materials than is economic I
would think.
Anyway some of these arguments sound more ideological than real; a
conflict of ideas rather than any real experimentation.
The first boat I built was the center hull for a trimaran. I followed
the Gougeon's system religiously (but not faultlessly). I used
Brynzeel plywood and clear fir. Talk about goldplate! In the 10 years
I had the boat I had one patch of dryrot where the epoxy was
breached.
Otherwise after 10 years the interior was like new and the exterior
was badly in need of paint because of bungs and nicks from my wooden
dinghy.
The second boat was a Nereia pram by Herreshoff. I used a medium
grade
of plywood and white oak frames. All wood was epoxy coated. I used
epoxy as glue throughout. No glass. In the 10 years I've had this
boat there has been no dryrot but the epoxy was bunged a lot at the
corners etc and though enough water got in to discolor under the
brightwork it was easy enough to patch. Water did get in screwholes
on
the frames that were not filled but dried out and the holes were
repaired.
The third boat was a modified Bolger Hawkeye. I used all kinds of
material on this boat. Fir marine plywood, luan marine plywood, and
what I believe is Meranti plywood and even some luan floor
underlayment. This boat was completed four years ago. All of the luan
floor underlayment was in non critical applications thank goodness
because I am getting rid of all of it. The fir plywood in the
interior
of the boat and the glassed bottom are in the same condition as when
the boat was constructed. The fir plywood deck which I did not glass
is badly checked. The deck is two pieces of plywood. One has little
checking the other is really bad. The difference is the in the
contrast between summer and winter growth. The one was peeled in such
a way that there was not so much flat grain and this has not checked
as bad. There is some dry rot in timbers which I am in the process of
cutting out. All of it is from the same stick of lumber, a piece of
Home Depot "Whitewood". The bottoms of door frames are rotted, I
neglected to do an adequate job of saturating the end grain. One
hatchcover has dry rot, again from the same stick of lumber. One of
the rub rails had about 5 feet of rotted wood. This rubrail is a
lamination of 2 pieces of 1 1/2 x 3/4 material. The rot did not
penetrate through the epoxy glue into the inside laminate.
The fourth boat is my Teal. This is constructed of a medium grade of
marine plywood, fir lumber and was glued up with epoxy. No glass, no
tape, no coating, and painted with Interlux Brightside on the inside
and Petit Easypoxy on the outside. Had I thought of it I would have
tried Latex on this boat. The Teal has been down on the beach or on
sawhorses on the patio for several years now and shows no signs of
wood problems though the Petit paint fades badly and will need
maintenance coatings for this reason only.
I am starting on a Bolger Bobcat which will be built exactly as
prescribed by Mr Payson in his book "Build the Instant Catboat". I
will use WEST epoxy. I think Mr Payson calls for glass exactly where
glass is needed, tape exactly where needed etc. The only departure I
will make is that I will construct a strongback to build it on.
Anyway this is more than anyone wants to read but here it is.
Bob Chamberland
> I have seen DaveAnswer>
> > Carnell quoted as saying "epoxy without glass is not worth the
> cost".
> > As a bald statement this is boloney. I would like to get a
> reference
> > to where this is stated. My bet is that he has qualified it.
> Bob,plywood,
> Dave Carnell's statement is as follows:
>
> "ENCAPSULATION
>
> You will note that I have not mentioned epoxy encapsulation; i.e.,
> coating both sides of everything with several coats of epoxy resin.
> It has no advantages and is a waste of money and time that adds
> useless weight. It won't turn lauan underlayment into marine
> though it will make it cost nearly as much. It does not keep theHi Bruce,
> water out of the wood boat that lives in the water and a dry sailed
> boat doesn't need it."
>
> This is from the page entitled "Epoxy Know How" on his site at
>http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/.
>
After laying my egg I found Mr Carnell's site and read his statement
on encapsulation. I could not find the quoted statement anywhere
there
but I assume this is where the idea came from. Unfortunately he
doesn't present any real data upon which to base his conclusion. My
feeling is if an epoxy barrier coat can prevent the migration of
water
into a fiberglass bottom then encapsulation ought to work. I believe
most of the Gougeon's boatbuilding was laminating veneers with epoxy
thus creating a superior "plywood" hull. The hulls were what might be
called "wood reinforced plastic". They were not building what we deal
with on this site. But if epoxy can protect a veneer why not a timber
or plywood?
In the development of their ideas for epoxy encapsulation I believe
they were building boats not necessarily selling materials. Any
boatbuilder is not going to use more materials than is economic I
would think.
Anyway some of these arguments sound more ideological than real; a
conflict of ideas rather than any real experimentation.
The first boat I built was the center hull for a trimaran. I followed
the Gougeon's system religiously (but not faultlessly). I used
Brynzeel plywood and clear fir. Talk about goldplate! In the 10 years
I had the boat I had one patch of dryrot where the epoxy was
breached.
Otherwise after 10 years the interior was like new and the exterior
was badly in need of paint because of bungs and nicks from my wooden
dinghy.
The second boat was a Nereia pram by Herreshoff. I used a medium
grade
of plywood and white oak frames. All wood was epoxy coated. I used
epoxy as glue throughout. No glass. In the 10 years I've had this
boat there has been no dryrot but the epoxy was bunged a lot at the
corners etc and though enough water got in to discolor under the
brightwork it was easy enough to patch. Water did get in screwholes
on
the frames that were not filled but dried out and the holes were
repaired.
The third boat was a modified Bolger Hawkeye. I used all kinds of
material on this boat. Fir marine plywood, luan marine plywood, and
what I believe is Meranti plywood and even some luan floor
underlayment. This boat was completed four years ago. All of the luan
floor underlayment was in non critical applications thank goodness
because I am getting rid of all of it. The fir plywood in the
interior
of the boat and the glassed bottom are in the same condition as when
the boat was constructed. The fir plywood deck which I did not glass
is badly checked. The deck is two pieces of plywood. One has little
checking the other is really bad. The difference is the in the
contrast between summer and winter growth. The one was peeled in such
a way that there was not so much flat grain and this has not checked
as bad. There is some dry rot in timbers which I am in the process of
cutting out. All of it is from the same stick of lumber, a piece of
Home Depot "Whitewood". The bottoms of door frames are rotted, I
neglected to do an adequate job of saturating the end grain. One
hatchcover has dry rot, again from the same stick of lumber. One of
the rub rails had about 5 feet of rotted wood. This rubrail is a
lamination of 2 pieces of 1 1/2 x 3/4 material. The rot did not
penetrate through the epoxy glue into the inside laminate.
The fourth boat is my Teal. This is constructed of a medium grade of
marine plywood, fir lumber and was glued up with epoxy. No glass, no
tape, no coating, and painted with Interlux Brightside on the inside
and Petit Easypoxy on the outside. Had I thought of it I would have
tried Latex on this boat. The Teal has been down on the beach or on
sawhorses on the patio for several years now and shows no signs of
wood problems though the Petit paint fades badly and will need
maintenance coatings for this reason only.
I am starting on a Bolger Bobcat which will be built exactly as
prescribed by Mr Payson in his book "Build the Instant Catboat". I
will use WEST epoxy. I think Mr Payson calls for glass exactly where
glass is needed, tape exactly where needed etc. The only departure I
will make is that I will construct a strongback to build it on.
Anyway this is more than anyone wants to read but here it is.
Bob Chamberland
I have seen Dave
Dave Carnell's statement is as follows:
"ENCAPSULATION
You will note that I have not mentioned epoxy encapsulation; i.e.,
coating both sides of everything with several coats of epoxy resin.
It has no advantages and is a waste of money and time that adds
useless weight. It won't turn lauan underlayment into marine plywood,
though it will make it cost nearly as much. It does not keep the
water out of the wood boat that lives in the water and a dry sailed
boat doesn't need it."
This is from the page entitled "Epoxy Know How" on his site at
http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/.
Max,
You seem to be taking the Gougeons to task for their
recommendations. Try asking the System Three people about paint. They
recommend only THEIR painting system. At least Gougeons tested
primers etc; for the benefit of the public.
All these people are in the business. On the other hand, Ken
Hankinson recommends encapsulation too. Last I looked, he wasn't in
the business of selling his own brand of epoxy.
Cheers!
Bruce
> Carnell quoted as saying "epoxy without glass is not worth thecost".
> As a bald statement this is boloney. I would like to get areference
> to where this is stated. My bet is that he has qualified it.Bob,
Dave Carnell's statement is as follows:
"ENCAPSULATION
You will note that I have not mentioned epoxy encapsulation; i.e.,
coating both sides of everything with several coats of epoxy resin.
It has no advantages and is a waste of money and time that adds
useless weight. It won't turn lauan underlayment into marine plywood,
though it will make it cost nearly as much. It does not keep the
water out of the wood boat that lives in the water and a dry sailed
boat doesn't need it."
This is from the page entitled "Epoxy Know How" on his site at
http://home.att.net/~DaveCarnell/.
Max,
You seem to be taking the Gougeons to task for their
recommendations. Try asking the System Three people about paint. They
recommend only THEIR painting system. At least Gougeons tested
primers etc; for the benefit of the public.
All these people are in the business. On the other hand, Ken
Hankinson recommends encapsulation too. Last I looked, he wasn't in
the business of selling his own brand of epoxy.
Cheers!
Bruce
--- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:
Might be worth the drive to pick some up. Or, order a sheet or two at
your local lumber place, and check it out.
BTW, looked, guess I was seeing things. Couldn't find any marks
stamped on the MDO. However, the piece that has been in the
dishwasher for the last three weeks is as good as new. No
delamination, no warping, nothing!
> ---that's
> >
> > Me? I always tape the chines, joints and exposed edges, but
> > it for a boat kept on a mooring.Hey Max.
> > DonB
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > What kind of plywood and primer/paint have you been using for
> the boat kept on a mooring? Also, is that salt water or fresh?
>
> If I epoxy coat my next boat, it will have cloth on it, although
> then I have to decide what wieght cloth. I will probably end
> up priming and painting bare plywood, just like my current boat,
> however.
>
> I wish i could find some decent 3/8" MDO around here.
>
>
> Max
Might be worth the drive to pick some up. Or, order a sheet or two at
your local lumber place, and check it out.
BTW, looked, guess I was seeing things. Couldn't find any marks
stamped on the MDO. However, the piece that has been in the
dishwasher for the last three weeks is as good as new. No
delamination, no warping, nothing!
Could you elaborate on the problems you have had with West epoxy?
Were they problems that would have occured with any epoxy? I've ready
in a couple of places where people were having problems with
blushing, and switched away from West for that reason. What
experiance do you have with this?
Were they problems that would have occured with any epoxy? I've ready
in a couple of places where people were having problems with
blushing, and switched away from West for that reason. What
experiance do you have with this?
--- In bolger@y..., dbaldnz@y... wrote:
> > glass case. I have experienced problems when using it without
> glass. Timber and ply moves with changes of temperature and
moisture
> content if the epoxy is breached, which is inevitable in the real
> world of boating.
>
---
If I epoxy coat my next boat, it will have cloth on it, although
then I have to decide what wieght cloth. I will probably end
up priming and painting bare plywood, just like my current boat,
however.
I wish i could find some decent 3/8" MDO around here.
Max
>the boat kept on a mooring? Also, is that salt water or fresh?
> Me? I always tape the chines, joints and exposed edges, but that's
> it for a boat kept on a mooring.
> DonB
>
>
>
>
> What kind of plywood and primer/paint have you been using for
If I epoxy coat my next boat, it will have cloth on it, although
then I have to decide what wieght cloth. I will probably end
up priming and painting bare plywood, just like my current boat,
however.
I wish i could find some decent 3/8" MDO around here.
Max
You have made quite a few generalisations yourself Bob. Most
comments here would come from personal experience. I used WEST since
it first came out, and it's a great product. However, epoxy
saturated timber and ply without glass is not heaven on earth, and
does not live up to their early claims, unless the boat is kept in a
glass case. I have experienced problems when using it without
glass. Timber and ply moves with changes of temperature and moisture
content if the epoxy is breached, which is inevitable in the real
world of boating.
A point to remember is that quite a few Bolger designs are lightly
built, for good reasons, and they flex, particularly decks where
stress due to heat and traffic is greatest. Epoxy is poor in
tension, and will probably crack unless glassed, which is good in
tension.
If one goes to the trouble and expense of applying epoxy, in my
opinion it doesn't make sense not to go a little further and use
glass.
Me? I always tape the chines, joints and exposed edges, but that's
it for a boat kept on a mooring.
DonB
comments here would come from personal experience. I used WEST since
it first came out, and it's a great product. However, epoxy
saturated timber and ply without glass is not heaven on earth, and
does not live up to their early claims, unless the boat is kept in a
glass case. I have experienced problems when using it without
glass. Timber and ply moves with changes of temperature and moisture
content if the epoxy is breached, which is inevitable in the real
world of boating.
A point to remember is that quite a few Bolger designs are lightly
built, for good reasons, and they flex, particularly decks where
stress due to heat and traffic is greatest. Epoxy is poor in
tension, and will probably crack unless glassed, which is good in
tension.
If one goes to the trouble and expense of applying epoxy, in my
opinion it doesn't make sense not to go a little further and use
glass.
Me? I always tape the chines, joints and exposed edges, but that's
it for a boat kept on a mooring.
DonB
--- In bolger@y..., cha62759@t... wrote:
> These threads about epoxy "sheathing" etc have been all over the
> place
> and are generally pretty loose on just exactly what is meant. Many
of
> the comments use the same terms but obviously with different
meanings.
>
> The result is either meaningless or misinformation. I have seen
Dave
> Carnell quoted as saying "epoxy without glass is not worth the
cost".
> As a bald statement this is boloney. I would like to get a
reference
> to where this is stated. My bet is that he has qualified it. After
> all
> you don't necessarily need glass when you glue with epoxy, you
don't
> necessarily need glass to coat plywood or other lumber. You use
glass
> when you need glass. For abrasion resistence or for impact
resistence.
> Or on the weather side of fir plywood You use tape for tape joints
etc
> etc. Anyone that glasses both sides of an epoxy coated deck for
> example is wasting a lot of money yet there are plenty of good
reasons
> to epoxy under the deck and use glass sheathing on the weather side
> of the deck.
> The whole point of using epoxy as a coating is to seal the lumber
to
> stabilize the moisture content so you have to coat all surfaces for
> that benefit but you don't need glass on all surfaces.
>
> I would recommend that anyone who really wants the straight dope on
> using epoxies get a copy of "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat
> Construction". I'm sure System 3 has a similar manual. If
statements
> like the above are made they should be qualified and it sure would
> help if terms were defined.
>
> Bob Chamberland
--- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:
straight dope" and I also consider it a "good source" of information
about epoxy. W.E.S.T. is a system that I think works and I think the
best source of information about how to go about using the system
remains the Gougeons. The Gougeons in their book lay no claims to
infalliblity, they recognize that the whole process of epoxy
construction is evolving and they admit that they would like to sell
their products. Their system is based on their formulations but
there's no reason other formulations won't work as long as they
follow
the system. If you don't follow the W.E.S.T. system you are using
some
other system and that's fine with me.
Secondly I'm not talking about "proper" terms. I'm talking about a
common meaning of the expressions we use.
Lastly I'm not looking for a fight with you or any one else. As I've
said before I'm looking for good information and that means in
language that can be understood.
Bob Chamberland
> --- In bolger@y..., cha62759@t... wrote:epoxy
> > --- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:
> > > Gougeon Brothers book is a good source of information about
> > construction. You will note that I have pointed out System 3 andthat
> > others as having similar manuals.
>
>
>
> Before, you said Gougeon and maybe System Three had "the straight
> Dope," infering that other sources did not. Now, you are saying
> they are "good sources"... You are being as imprecise withSorry for my imprecision Max. I consider the Gougeon's book "the
> words as those you were critizing. I want to read what these guys
> have to say, whether or not they agree with the sellers
> of epoxy, and whether or not they use the "proper" terms.
>
>
>
> Max
straight dope" and I also consider it a "good source" of information
about epoxy. W.E.S.T. is a system that I think works and I think the
best source of information about how to go about using the system
remains the Gougeons. The Gougeons in their book lay no claims to
infalliblity, they recognize that the whole process of epoxy
construction is evolving and they admit that they would like to sell
their products. Their system is based on their formulations but
there's no reason other formulations won't work as long as they
follow
the system. If you don't follow the W.E.S.T. system you are using
some
other system and that's fine with me.
Secondly I'm not talking about "proper" terms. I'm talking about a
common meaning of the expressions we use.
Lastly I'm not looking for a fight with you or any one else. As I've
said before I'm looking for good information and that means in
language that can be understood.
Bob Chamberland
--- In bolger@y..., Michael Neverdosky <michaeln@c...> wrote:
of years.
Gougeon has also been working on MARKETING for lots of years,
and they have a product they would like to sell. It may be
a darn fine product, too, but that doesn't mean they are the
sole source of knowledge or product, or that they don't screw
up occasionally.
Max
> You might want to read up on the research and testing that theBrothers
> have done over the years, and they have been doing it for LOTS ofyears.
>Firestone has been doing research and testing on tires for LOTS
of years.
Gougeon has also been working on MARKETING for lots of years,
and they have a product they would like to sell. It may be
a darn fine product, too, but that doesn't mean they are the
sole source of knowledge or product, or that they don't screw
up occasionally.
Max
--- In bolger@y..., cha62759@t... wrote:
Dope," infering that other sources did not. Now, you are saying that
they are "good sources"... You are being as imprecise with
words as those you were critizing. I want to read what these guys
have to say, whether or not they agree with the sellers
of epoxy, and whether or not they use the "proper" terms.
Max
> --- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:Before, you said Gougeon and maybe System Three had "the straight
> > Gougeon Brothers book is a good source of information about epoxy
> construction. You will note that I have pointed out System 3 and
> others as having similar manuals.
Dope," infering that other sources did not. Now, you are saying that
they are "good sources"... You are being as imprecise with
words as those you were critizing. I want to read what these guys
have to say, whether or not they agree with the sellers
of epoxy, and whether or not they use the "proper" terms.
Max
--- In bolger@y..., richard@s... wrote:
> Ah. Aren't they the owners of the company that sells therediculously
> overpriced "West System" epoxy?might
>
> Is it any wonder they recommend you dip the entire boat in thier
> stuff?
>
> Personaly, I'm using MDO. I'm only going to epoxy where I put glass.
> I'm only going to glass the hull, and any interior places water
> set.on
>
> FG bloats have similiar issues. The manufactures coat wood parts
> with "gel coat" to make them look pretty and sell. No glass. Wood
> checks. Water gets in. Wood rots.
>
> --- In bolger@y..., cha62759@t... wrote:
> > I would recommend that anyone who really wants the straight dope
> > using epoxies get a copy of "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat
> > Construction". I'm sure System 3 has a similar manual. If
> statements
> > like the above are made they should be qualified and it sure would
> > help if terms were defined.
> >
> > Bob Chamberland
--- In bolger@y..., richard@s... wrote:
I'm not telling anyone to buy any particular epoxy. I am not
recommending that you did your entire boat in "their stuff". The book
by the Gougeons and any other manual say by System 3 are references by
people who know their product and how to use it (or possibly overuse
it). Again it's like reading the directions first before you start. I
had no comment about fiberglass boats so your comment is irrelevent to
me.
Bob Chamberland
> Ah. Aren't they the owners of the company that sells therediculously
> overpriced "West System" epoxy?might
>
> Is it any wonder they recommend you dip the entire boat in thier
> stuff?
>
> Personaly, I'm using MDO. I'm only going to epoxy where I put glass.
> I'm only going to glass the hull, and any interior places water
> set.Hello Richard,
>
> FG bloats have similiar issues. The manufactures coat wood parts
> with "gel coat" to make them look pretty and sell. No glass. Wood
> checks. Water gets in. Wood rots.
>
I'm not telling anyone to buy any particular epoxy. I am not
recommending that you did your entire boat in "their stuff". The book
by the Gougeons and any other manual say by System 3 are references by
people who know their product and how to use it (or possibly overuse
it). Again it's like reading the directions first before you start. I
had no comment about fiberglass boats so your comment is irrelevent to
me.
Bob Chamberland
--- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:
others as having similar manuals. It's a lot easier and more efficient
to "read the directions" when you are dealing with systems. When you
understand the system then experiment. I don't object to other views,
opinions or experience. The major point of my spiel was that we all
use the same meanings for the words we use if we are to be understood
accurately. For example "sheathing" implies fiberglass cloth yet some
respondents use the word instead of "coating" which does not imply
using cloth.
No I don't own stock in WEST.
Bob Chamberland
> Gougeon Brothers book is a good source of information about epoxyconstruction. You will note that I have pointed out System 3 and
others as having similar manuals. It's a lot easier and more efficient
to "read the directions" when you are dealing with systems. When you
understand the system then experiment. I don't object to other views,
opinions or experience. The major point of my spiel was that we all
use the same meanings for the words we use if we are to be understood
accurately. For example "sheathing" implies fiberglass cloth yet some
respondents use the word instead of "coating" which does not imply
using cloth.
No I don't own stock in WEST.
Bob Chamberland
>
> I would like you "define" exactly why Gougeon Brothers
> knows everything there is to know about epoxy and no one else can
> have an opposing view or opinion or experience.
>
>
> Do you own stock in Gougeon Brothers?
>
>
> Max
You might want to read up on the research and testing that the Brothers
have done over the years, and they have been doing it for LOTS of years.
They also suggest that you make samples and do tests of the systems and
methods that you plan to use so you know what is going on.
West System products are high priced but they are also of very
consistent
high quality. I use West when I need material for a small job and don't
have the time to do a bunch of testing. West epoxy works every time and
I know what the handling will be.
For large projects I often use less expensive epoxy but I find it very
important to do a number of tests so I know what to expect before I
start making real parts. Large projects are ones that use more than
5 gallons of epoxy.
There are LOTS of different epoxies that each have advantages and
disadvantages.
For example, System Three epoxy (a 2:1 mix) can be recoated without
special
surface prep anytime within 72 hours, but is not quite as strong or
chemical
resistant as West (and other 5:1 mixes).
The G Brothers are not perfect and do not have every answer but they
have
done more for and with epoxy than anyone on this list as far as I can
tell.
Hey, it is just a boat, build it and have fun!
michael
cadbury@...wrote:
have done over the years, and they have been doing it for LOTS of years.
They also suggest that you make samples and do tests of the systems and
methods that you plan to use so you know what is going on.
West System products are high priced but they are also of very
consistent
high quality. I use West when I need material for a small job and don't
have the time to do a bunch of testing. West epoxy works every time and
I know what the handling will be.
For large projects I often use less expensive epoxy but I find it very
important to do a number of tests so I know what to expect before I
start making real parts. Large projects are ones that use more than
5 gallons of epoxy.
There are LOTS of different epoxies that each have advantages and
disadvantages.
For example, System Three epoxy (a 2:1 mix) can be recoated without
special
surface prep anytime within 72 hours, but is not quite as strong or
chemical
resistant as West (and other 5:1 mixes).
The G Brothers are not perfect and do not have every answer but they
have
done more for and with epoxy than anyone on this list as far as I can
tell.
Hey, it is just a boat, build it and have fun!
michael
cadbury@...wrote:
>
> --- In bolger@y..., cha62759@t... wrote:
> > I would recommend that anyone who really wants the straight dope on
> > using epoxies get a copy of "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat
> > Construction". I'm sure System 3 has a similar manual. If
> statements
> > like the above are made they should be qualified and it sure would
> > help if terms were defined.
> >
> > Bob Chamberland
>
> I would like you "define" exactly why Gougeon Brothers
> knows everything there is to know about epoxy and no one else can
> have an opposing view or opinion or experience.
>
> Do you own stock in Gougeon Brothers?
>
> Max
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
It has markings, I'll try to remember to look at them tonight.
Only some small, 1/4" voids visible on the side. Ply is very light.
Looks like a good fir ply, 5 ply.
Only some small, 1/4" voids visible on the side. Ply is very light.
Looks like a good fir ply, 5 ply.
--- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:
> Hey Richard, does your MDO have any markings, and how good does
> the actual wood look? The wood on my two sample sheets of MDO
> looks just like ordinary AC Fir exterior. Lots'o'knots, and a
> fair number of voids evident along the edges.
>
>
> Max
--- In bolger@y..., richard@s... wrote:
know the "correct" way to build boats should check out
www.yachtsurvey.com You will never look at another
Sea Ray the same way.
>By the way, anyone who things that production boat builders
> FG bloats have similiar issues. The manufactures coat wood parts
> with "gel coat" to make them look pretty and sell. No glass. Wood
> checks. Water gets in. Wood rots.
>
>
know the "correct" way to build boats should check out
www.yachtsurvey.com You will never look at another
Sea Ray the same way.
--- In bolger@y..., richard@s... wrote:
how I see it.
stuff I can find in 3/8" is APA stamped BC exterior. No mill
indicated, and the lumber guy could not tell me where this
stuff came from. At 34 bucks a sheet, I am probably ahead
buying ordinary BC pine and glassing it. I ain't gonna spend the
money on epoxy without also having the cloth.
Hey Richard, does your MDO have any markings, and how good does
the actual wood look? The wood on my two sample sheets of MDO
looks just like ordinary AC Fir exterior. Lots'o'knots, and a
fair number of voids evident along the edges.
Max
> Ah. Aren't they the owners of the company that sells therediculously
> overpriced "West System" epoxy?Like asking Gary Condit for marriage advice, at least that's
>
> Is it any wonder they recommend you dip the entire boat in thier
> stuff?
>
how I see it.
> Personaly, I'm using MDO. I'm only going to epoxy where I putglass.
> I'm only going to glass the hull, and any interior places watermight
> set.I wish I could find a local source for good quality MDO. The only
>
stuff I can find in 3/8" is APA stamped BC exterior. No mill
indicated, and the lumber guy could not tell me where this
stuff came from. At 34 bucks a sheet, I am probably ahead
buying ordinary BC pine and glassing it. I ain't gonna spend the
money on epoxy without also having the cloth.
Hey Richard, does your MDO have any markings, and how good does
the actual wood look? The wood on my two sample sheets of MDO
looks just like ordinary AC Fir exterior. Lots'o'knots, and a
fair number of voids evident along the edges.
Max
Ah. Aren't they the owners of the company that sells the rediculously
overpriced "West System" epoxy?
Is it any wonder they recommend you dip the entire boat in thier
stuff?
Personaly, I'm using MDO. I'm only going to epoxy where I put glass.
I'm only going to glass the hull, and any interior places water might
set.
FG bloats have similiar issues. The manufactures coat wood parts
with "gel coat" to make them look pretty and sell. No glass. Wood
checks. Water gets in. Wood rots.
overpriced "West System" epoxy?
Is it any wonder they recommend you dip the entire boat in thier
stuff?
Personaly, I'm using MDO. I'm only going to epoxy where I put glass.
I'm only going to glass the hull, and any interior places water might
set.
FG bloats have similiar issues. The manufactures coat wood parts
with "gel coat" to make them look pretty and sell. No glass. Wood
checks. Water gets in. Wood rots.
--- In bolger@y..., cha62759@t... wrote:
> I would recommend that anyone who really wants the straight dope on
> using epoxies get a copy of "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat
> Construction". I'm sure System 3 has a similar manual. If
statements
> like the above are made they should be qualified and it sure would
> help if terms were defined.
>
> Bob Chamberland
I think how to use epoxy is far from a precise science. Because the types
of materials used by us "amateurs" varies as much as our choice in plans and
designers. Type of use plays a large part also, let alone our budgets.
I've read from West Systems, RAKA, Gougeon Brothers, Payson, etc. Even the
pros are somewhat different on what they recommend. Let's not forget that
the Retailers want to sell product so recommend the best use of epoxy and
I'm sure it is the best, but is it necessary at all times?
After all if we where all experts, we wouldn't have started this thread,
since we would have known the answer already.
Please take our comments as an attempt to educate and be educated at the
same time.
Jeff
of materials used by us "amateurs" varies as much as our choice in plans and
designers. Type of use plays a large part also, let alone our budgets.
I've read from West Systems, RAKA, Gougeon Brothers, Payson, etc. Even the
pros are somewhat different on what they recommend. Let's not forget that
the Retailers want to sell product so recommend the best use of epoxy and
I'm sure it is the best, but is it necessary at all times?
After all if we where all experts, we wouldn't have started this thread,
since we would have known the answer already.
Please take our comments as an attempt to educate and be educated at the
same time.
Jeff
--- In bolger@y..., cha62759@t... wrote:
knows everything there is to know about epoxy and no one else can
have an opposing view or opinion or experience.
Do you own stock in Gougeon Brothers?
Max
> I would recommend that anyone who really wants the straight dope onstatements
> using epoxies get a copy of "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat
> Construction". I'm sure System 3 has a similar manual. If
> like the above are made they should be qualified and it sure wouldI would like you "define" exactly why Gougeon Brothers
> help if terms were defined.
>
> Bob Chamberland
knows everything there is to know about epoxy and no one else can
have an opposing view or opinion or experience.
Do you own stock in Gougeon Brothers?
Max
These threads about epoxy "sheathing" etc have been all over the
place
and are generally pretty loose on just exactly what is meant. Many of
the comments use the same terms but obviously with different meanings.
The result is either meaningless or misinformation. I have seen Dave
Carnell quoted as saying "epoxy without glass is not worth the cost".
As a bald statement this is boloney. I would like to get a reference
to where this is stated. My bet is that he has qualified it. After
all
you don't necessarily need glass when you glue with epoxy, you don't
necessarily need glass to coat plywood or other lumber. You use glass
when you need glass. For abrasion resistence or for impact resistence.
Or on the weather side of fir plywood You use tape for tape joints etc
etc. Anyone that glasses both sides of an epoxy coated deck for
example is wasting a lot of money yet there are plenty of good reasons
to epoxy under the deck and use glass sheathing on the weather side
of the deck.
The whole point of using epoxy as a coating is to seal the lumber to
stabilize the moisture content so you have to coat all surfaces for
that benefit but you don't need glass on all surfaces.
I would recommend that anyone who really wants the straight dope on
using epoxies get a copy of "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat
Construction". I'm sure System 3 has a similar manual. If statements
like the above are made they should be qualified and it sure would
help if terms were defined.
Bob Chamberland
place
and are generally pretty loose on just exactly what is meant. Many of
the comments use the same terms but obviously with different meanings.
The result is either meaningless or misinformation. I have seen Dave
Carnell quoted as saying "epoxy without glass is not worth the cost".
As a bald statement this is boloney. I would like to get a reference
to where this is stated. My bet is that he has qualified it. After
all
you don't necessarily need glass when you glue with epoxy, you don't
necessarily need glass to coat plywood or other lumber. You use glass
when you need glass. For abrasion resistence or for impact resistence.
Or on the weather side of fir plywood You use tape for tape joints etc
etc. Anyone that glasses both sides of an epoxy coated deck for
example is wasting a lot of money yet there are plenty of good reasons
to epoxy under the deck and use glass sheathing on the weather side
of the deck.
The whole point of using epoxy as a coating is to seal the lumber to
stabilize the moisture content so you have to coat all surfaces for
that benefit but you don't need glass on all surfaces.
I would recommend that anyone who really wants the straight dope on
using epoxies get a copy of "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat
Construction". I'm sure System 3 has a similar manual. If statements
like the above are made they should be qualified and it sure would
help if terms were defined.
Bob Chamberland