Re: [bolger] Re: dark epoxy.
Composite aircraft are all painted white for this reason.
HJ
"Orr, Jamie" wrote:
HJ
"Orr, Jamie" wrote:
>
> Sam Devlin speaks of this problem in his book. He refers to "print
> through", where the weave of the cloth becomes visible after some time --
> right through paint and all. He attributes it to the epoxy creeping at
> higher temperatures (starting around 140 degrees, I think) and has found
> that dark colours retain significantly more of the sun's heat than light
> colours. His solution is to use white or very light colours on the
> topsides.
>
I use a hot air gun, the kind used for stripping paint. Works
wonderful.
I would guess then, that light colors are "in" for boats held
together with epoxy.
wonderful.
I would guess then, that light colors are "in" for boats held
together with epoxy.
--- In bolger@y..., "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
>
> This is far from scientific, but I use a common propane torch to
clean tools
> that get epoxy on them. I have noticed that a brief wave through
the flame
> will usually loosen the resin. Kind of scary.
>
> Chuck
This is far from scientific, but I use a common propane torch to clean tools
that get epoxy on them. I have noticed that a brief wave through the flame
will usually loosen the resin. Kind of scary.
Chuck
that get epoxy on them. I have noticed that a brief wave through the flame
will usually loosen the resin. Kind of scary.
Chuck
Greg,
Since the written word conveys no emotion, some comments can be
taken incorrectly. What is humorous to one, is sarcastic and
obnoxious to another. I think that's the root of the recent war. I'm
guilty of taking Max's comments as sarcastic and caustic. I apologize
to you and the group.
Another piece to this is a "Ford vs Chevy" element. "A" used
"Brand X" and had problems with it. He used "Brand Z" and everything
went fine. Therefore, "Brand Z" is "better" than "Brand X". "B" has
the opposite experince or used "Brand Y" and says it's "better".
Everyone has had the same experience with other items in life,(like
cars), and has an opinion as to what is "best". To the neophyte it
all gets confusing and the best advice I could give is to get a
concensus and go from there.
Me? I lean toward WEST simply because, if I run out on a Saturday
afternoon, there are three or four places I can run out and get some
more. If I got epoxy "mail order", I'd be out of luck.
Again my apologies to all.
Bruce
Since the written word conveys no emotion, some comments can be
taken incorrectly. What is humorous to one, is sarcastic and
obnoxious to another. I think that's the root of the recent war. I'm
guilty of taking Max's comments as sarcastic and caustic. I apologize
to you and the group.
Another piece to this is a "Ford vs Chevy" element. "A" used
"Brand X" and had problems with it. He used "Brand Z" and everything
went fine. Therefore, "Brand Z" is "better" than "Brand X". "B" has
the opposite experince or used "Brand Y" and says it's "better".
Everyone has had the same experience with other items in life,(like
cars), and has an opinion as to what is "best". To the neophyte it
all gets confusing and the best advice I could give is to get a
concensus and go from there.
Me? I lean toward WEST simply because, if I run out on a Saturday
afternoon, there are three or four places I can run out and get some
more. If I got epoxy "mail order", I'd be out of luck.
Again my apologies to all.
Bruce
--- In bolger@y..., ghartc@p... wrote:
> Sailors:
>
> The list is TOO LARGE for "what I said", "what you said" rapid-fire
> conversation. Once you get to a couple dozen a day, crewmen start
to
> abandon ship and I hear about it.
>
> There is a wealth of experience here; so please - post something
> useful or, at least, inspirational to the ~875 BOAT-BUILDERS taking
> their time to listen in. The less we can talk about the list
itself,
> the more we can hear about boats.
>
> I'm taking digests myself lately, so I would certainly members to
> snip away before resending.
>
> Thanks,
> MODERATOR and SHIP'S FLOGGER
I'm tired of who uses what epoxy myself, Greg , I finally got my Freedom 21 in the water and I love
it. Whats this to do with Bolger? I have always loved the Keel Daysailor and talked to PCB about a 1
off in fiberglass. He doesn't think it worthwhile. The Freedom 21 might do pretty much what I wanted
the Keel Daysailor to do. So far, so good. Now to get it on the boat lift. Clyde
ghartc@...wrote:
it. Whats this to do with Bolger? I have always loved the Keel Daysailor and talked to PCB about a 1
off in fiberglass. He doesn't think it worthwhile. The Freedom 21 might do pretty much what I wanted
the Keel Daysailor to do. So far, so good. Now to get it on the boat lift. Clyde
ghartc@...wrote:
> Sailors:
>
> The list is TOO LARGE for "what I said", "what you said" rapid-fire
> conversation. Once you get to a couple dozen a day, crewmen start to
> abandon ship and I hear about it.
>
> There is a wealth of experience here; so please - post something
> useful or, at least, inspirational to the ~875 BOAT-BUILDERS taking
> their time to listen in. The less we can talk about the list itself,
> the more we can hear about boats.
>
> I'm taking digests myself lately, so I would certainly members to
> snip away before resending.
>
> Thanks,
> MODERATOR and SHIP'S FLOGGER
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "Samson Family" <Bill.Samson@t...> wrote:
> > When I brouse this list, I do so for fun, pleasure and
> instruction. What I
> > do not like to see is an ongoing pissing contest between guys who,
> frankly,
> > should know better. Judging by other emails I've seen, I'm not
> alone in my
> > views, so would the guilty parties kindly take their insulting, nit-
> picking
> > behaviour off-line where it won't offend the rest of us?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Bill Samson
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I used Interlux 404/414 epoxy primer on my Junebug. I would agree
that it sticks well to epoxy (I used WEST) and it sands easily. But
if I were to use it again I would wear some sort of fume mask even if
I were painting outdoors. The thinner for this primer is very nasty.
Mike
that it sticks well to epoxy (I used WEST) and it sands easily. But
if I were to use it again I would wear some sort of fume mask even if
I were painting outdoors. The thinner for this primer is very nasty.
Mike
--- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
<snip>
> I have heard nothing but good things about interlux barrier
coat
> to apply over epoxy prior to painting. It is supposedly easy to
sand
> as well.
Sailors:
The list is TOO LARGE for "what I said", "what you said" rapid-fire
conversation. Once you get to a couple dozen a day, crewmen start to
abandon ship and I hear about it.
There is a wealth of experience here; so please - post something
useful or, at least, inspirational to the ~875 BOAT-BUILDERS taking
their time to listen in. The less we can talk about the list itself,
the more we can hear about boats.
I'm taking digests myself lately, so I would certainly members to
snip away before resending.
Thanks,
MODERATOR and SHIP'S FLOGGER
The list is TOO LARGE for "what I said", "what you said" rapid-fire
conversation. Once you get to a couple dozen a day, crewmen start to
abandon ship and I hear about it.
There is a wealth of experience here; so please - post something
useful or, at least, inspirational to the ~875 BOAT-BUILDERS taking
their time to listen in. The less we can talk about the list itself,
the more we can hear about boats.
I'm taking digests myself lately, so I would certainly members to
snip away before resending.
Thanks,
MODERATOR and SHIP'S FLOGGER
--- In bolger@y..., "Samson Family" <Bill.Samson@t...> wrote:
> When I brouse this list, I do so for fun, pleasure and
instruction. What I
> do not like to see is an ongoing pissing contest between guys who,
frankly,
> should know better. Judging by other emails I've seen, I'm not
alone in my
> views, so would the guilty parties kindly take their insulting, nit-
picking
> behaviour off-line where it won't offend the rest of us?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Samson
ok.
That is proof enough for me! I just ordered more WEST.
Hopefully EAST/WEST will meet happily (despite the old saying, "EAst
is East and WEst is West and never the twain shall meet")with a
proper scrubbing in between. The recommendation from Noah's was that
I scrub thoroughly with water/mild detergent with a scotchbrite pad,
then rinse thoroughly with water prior to proceeding further.
I have heard nothing but good things about interlux barrier coat
to apply over epoxy prior to painting. It is supposedly easy to sand
as well.
The excitement is building around here, It looks like I will be
hanging the rudder this weekend.
I also have found the loadrite makes a good trailer for Micro's.
The prospects of a motoring around some lake before the ice is in
looms large on the horizon.
The only reason I am online and not building, is that we are
having nasty rain at the moment, not great for glueing.
David Jost
That is proof enough for me! I just ordered more WEST.
Hopefully EAST/WEST will meet happily (despite the old saying, "EAst
is East and WEst is West and never the twain shall meet")with a
proper scrubbing in between. The recommendation from Noah's was that
I scrub thoroughly with water/mild detergent with a scotchbrite pad,
then rinse thoroughly with water prior to proceeding further.
I have heard nothing but good things about interlux barrier coat
to apply over epoxy prior to painting. It is supposedly easy to sand
as well.
The excitement is building around here, It looks like I will be
hanging the rudder this weekend.
I also have found the loadrite makes a good trailer for Micro's.
The prospects of a motoring around some lake before the ice is in
looms large on the horizon.
The only reason I am online and not building, is that we are
having nasty rain at the moment, not great for glueing.
David Jost
On my Frolic, I was to impatient to wait for the epoxy to show up from RAKA
so I went out a bought a quart from Home Depot that was a 5 to 1 mix and had
a smell of formaldehyde, really nasty stuff, but was epoxy not polyester. I
did all the chines on the exterior with the stuff. Later when I covered
with glass and epoxy from RAKA everything stuck well. Now 3 years later,
still solid.
I did sand well and wipe down with acetone first. Maybe that was the key
and it had about a month to cure up too.
Jeff
so I went out a bought a quart from Home Depot that was a 5 to 1 mix and had
a smell of formaldehyde, really nasty stuff, but was epoxy not polyester. I
did all the chines on the exterior with the stuff. Later when I covered
with glass and epoxy from RAKA everything stuck well. Now 3 years later,
still solid.
I did sand well and wipe down with acetone first. Maybe that was the key
and it had about a month to cure up too.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: <cha62759@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 1:52 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Lighten up! / mixing brands?
> --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
> > Now I will open up another can of worms (that is, an epoxy can of
> > worms).
> >
> > I have been using EAST System epoxy from Noah's Boatbuilding
> > supplies in Toronto. With the exchange rate between the Canadian
> > dollar and the savings by using a WEST product knock off, I have
> been
> > very happy with the results. No blush, but as Lincoln pointed out,
> > that is probably a product of working on warm, dry days as anything
> > else. Here is the problem: I only need one more gallon of epoxy to
> > finish things off on "Firefly", and WEST is available at most marine
> > chandleries, (also another brand available at Home Despot). What
> > happens when you mix brands of epoxy one onto of another (not resins
> > with hardeners). Such as: I want to glue my mast step with WEST,
> but
> > the floor is sheathed with EAST and glass? Will a good rub down
> with
> > laquer thinner allow a good bond, or will there be a mismatch in
> > adhesion qualities?
> >
> > Does anyone have good info on this?
> >
> > David Jost
> > "going off to the Jamestown Marine web site to get the bronze
> > bolts and paint!"
>
>
I used three different epoxies on one chebacco boat -- nothing has fallen
off yet.
Jamie Orr
-----Original Message-----
From:djost@...[mailto:djost@...]
Sent: August 27, 2001 11:40 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Lighten up! / mixing brands?
Now I will open up another can of worms (that is, an epoxy can of
worms).
I have been using EAST System epoxy from Noah's Boatbuilding
supplies in Toronto. With the exchange rate between the Canadian
dollar and the savings by using a WEST product knock off, I have been
very happy with the results. No blush, but as Lincoln pointed out,
that is probably a product of working on warm, dry days as anything
else. Here is the problem: I only need one more gallon of epoxy to
finish things off on "Firefly", and WEST is available at most marine
chandleries, (also another brand available at Home Despot). What
happens when you mix brands of epoxy one onto of another (not resins
with hardeners). Such as: I want to glue my mast step with WEST, but
the floor is sheathed with EAST and glass? Will a good rub down with
laquer thinner allow a good bond, or will there be a mismatch in
adhesion qualities?
Does anyone have good info on this?
David Jost
"going off to the Jamestown Marine web site to get the bronze
bolts and paint!"
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
off yet.
Jamie Orr
-----Original Message-----
From:djost@...[mailto:djost@...]
Sent: August 27, 2001 11:40 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Lighten up! / mixing brands?
Now I will open up another can of worms (that is, an epoxy can of
worms).
I have been using EAST System epoxy from Noah's Boatbuilding
supplies in Toronto. With the exchange rate between the Canadian
dollar and the savings by using a WEST product knock off, I have been
very happy with the results. No blush, but as Lincoln pointed out,
that is probably a product of working on warm, dry days as anything
else. Here is the problem: I only need one more gallon of epoxy to
finish things off on "Firefly", and WEST is available at most marine
chandleries, (also another brand available at Home Despot). What
happens when you mix brands of epoxy one onto of another (not resins
with hardeners). Such as: I want to glue my mast step with WEST, but
the floor is sheathed with EAST and glass? Will a good rub down with
laquer thinner allow a good bond, or will there be a mismatch in
adhesion qualities?
Does anyone have good info on this?
David Jost
"going off to the Jamestown Marine web site to get the bronze
bolts and paint!"
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
You ask for "good info on this". I can only tell you my latest
experience. I recently bought an old Cape Dory Typhoon. In repairing
the bottom of the hull I sanded off the bottom paint and found that
somewhere along the way someone had sanded through the gel coat and
then recoated with epoxy (brand unknown). I did my repairs with West
epoxy and fillers, coated that with Interlux barrier coat and finished
with Interlux bottom paint. There was no immediate problem and I'll
find out for sure when I haul my Typhoon in October. Interlux doesn't
publish any caveats about not using their barrier coat over other
products nor do the WEST people that I know of. Both have very clear
instructions on obtaining the best results. They always warn about
removing any amine blush: I scrub with soap and water then sand than
make my application. With hindsight I assume that there is amine blush
on everything. WEST I know about, and I've read that with System 3 you
have 3 days when you can recoat without worry. The implication is that
after 3 days you have some amine blush. I've used Interlux barriercoat
over WEST epoxy on several boats and have had no problem. I'm not sure
if lacquer thinner is the thing to use for clean up. What does the
EAST can say? Most manufacturers that I've experienced specify some
proprietary solvent and sometimes in fine print will say acetone for
cleaning up. Some extra strength acetone can disolve epoxy or
polyester.
Bob Chamberland
> Now I will open up another can of worms (that is, an epoxy can ofbeen
> worms).
>
> I have been using EAST System epoxy from Noah's Boatbuilding
> supplies in Toronto. With the exchange rate between the Canadian
> dollar and the savings by using a WEST product knock off, I have
> very happy with the results. No blush, but as Lincoln pointed out,but
> that is probably a product of working on warm, dry days as anything
> else. Here is the problem: I only need one more gallon of epoxy to
> finish things off on "Firefly", and WEST is available at most marine
> chandleries, (also another brand available at Home Despot). What
> happens when you mix brands of epoxy one onto of another (not resins
> with hardeners). Such as: I want to glue my mast step with WEST,
> the floor is sheathed with EAST and glass? Will a good rub downwith
> laquer thinner allow a good bond, or will there be a mismatch inHi David,
> adhesion qualities?
>
> Does anyone have good info on this?
>
> David Jost
> "going off to the Jamestown Marine web site to get the bronze
> bolts and paint!"
You ask for "good info on this". I can only tell you my latest
experience. I recently bought an old Cape Dory Typhoon. In repairing
the bottom of the hull I sanded off the bottom paint and found that
somewhere along the way someone had sanded through the gel coat and
then recoated with epoxy (brand unknown). I did my repairs with West
epoxy and fillers, coated that with Interlux barrier coat and finished
with Interlux bottom paint. There was no immediate problem and I'll
find out for sure when I haul my Typhoon in October. Interlux doesn't
publish any caveats about not using their barrier coat over other
products nor do the WEST people that I know of. Both have very clear
instructions on obtaining the best results. They always warn about
removing any amine blush: I scrub with soap and water then sand than
make my application. With hindsight I assume that there is amine blush
on everything. WEST I know about, and I've read that with System 3 you
have 3 days when you can recoat without worry. The implication is that
after 3 days you have some amine blush. I've used Interlux barriercoat
over WEST epoxy on several boats and have had no problem. I'm not sure
if lacquer thinner is the thing to use for clean up. What does the
EAST can say? Most manufacturers that I've experienced specify some
proprietary solvent and sometimes in fine print will say acetone for
cleaning up. Some extra strength acetone can disolve epoxy or
polyester.
Bob Chamberland
Now I will open up another can of worms (that is, an epoxy can of
worms).
I have been using EAST System epoxy from Noah's Boatbuilding
supplies in Toronto. With the exchange rate between the Canadian
dollar and the savings by using a WEST product knock off, I have been
very happy with the results. No blush, but as Lincoln pointed out,
that is probably a product of working on warm, dry days as anything
else. Here is the problem: I only need one more gallon of epoxy to
finish things off on "Firefly", and WEST is available at most marine
chandleries, (also another brand available at Home Despot). What
happens when you mix brands of epoxy one onto of another (not resins
with hardeners). Such as: I want to glue my mast step with WEST, but
the floor is sheathed with EAST and glass? Will a good rub down with
laquer thinner allow a good bond, or will there be a mismatch in
adhesion qualities?
Does anyone have good info on this?
David Jost
"going off to the Jamestown Marine web site to get the bronze
bolts and paint!"
worms).
I have been using EAST System epoxy from Noah's Boatbuilding
supplies in Toronto. With the exchange rate between the Canadian
dollar and the savings by using a WEST product knock off, I have been
very happy with the results. No blush, but as Lincoln pointed out,
that is probably a product of working on warm, dry days as anything
else. Here is the problem: I only need one more gallon of epoxy to
finish things off on "Firefly", and WEST is available at most marine
chandleries, (also another brand available at Home Despot). What
happens when you mix brands of epoxy one onto of another (not resins
with hardeners). Such as: I want to glue my mast step with WEST, but
the floor is sheathed with EAST and glass? Will a good rub down with
laquer thinner allow a good bond, or will there be a mismatch in
adhesion qualities?
Does anyone have good info on this?
David Jost
"going off to the Jamestown Marine web site to get the bronze
bolts and paint!"
Polyester is supposed to be MORE heat resistant than epoxy. The normal
sort of epoxy gets soft at something like 130F to 140F. Friends have
had epoxy model airplanes warp in the heat, and I know when I've
promoted curing with heat that sometimes what seems quite soft while
hot seems cured when it cools off.
I've measured the inside of a car on a sunny day at 140F when it was
80 or 90 outside, and I seem to recall figures showing that dark
colored surfaces outside can reach the same sort of temperature.
I know people who make airplanes take this very seriously; some planes
are restricted from performing aerobatics on sunny days with the
temperature above a certain point. Ever notice all those white
homebuilts and sailplanes?
System 3, or is it Raka, says not to make dark colored decks with the
regular epoxy.
Plastic is an unfortunate category, as it contains so many different
things. The temperature varies all over the place. Some plastics can
be used in hot engines, others sag if you just look at them funny. FOr
instance, I recall it takes maybe 100 degrees higher temp to bend
Lexan than it does Plexiglass. But if I recall correctly, epoxy is
"thermosetting", not thermoforming. Still, it's vulnerable to heat.
Some epoxies can be made more heat resistant by post curing at a high
temperature. Others won't even cure properly if you don't cook them.
sort of epoxy gets soft at something like 130F to 140F. Friends have
had epoxy model airplanes warp in the heat, and I know when I've
promoted curing with heat that sometimes what seems quite soft while
hot seems cured when it cools off.
I've measured the inside of a car on a sunny day at 140F when it was
80 or 90 outside, and I seem to recall figures showing that dark
colored surfaces outside can reach the same sort of temperature.
I know people who make airplanes take this very seriously; some planes
are restricted from performing aerobatics on sunny days with the
temperature above a certain point. Ever notice all those white
homebuilts and sailplanes?
System 3, or is it Raka, says not to make dark colored decks with the
regular epoxy.
Plastic is an unfortunate category, as it contains so many different
things. The temperature varies all over the place. Some plastics can
be used in hot engines, others sag if you just look at them funny. FOr
instance, I recall it takes maybe 100 degrees higher temp to bend
Lexan than it does Plexiglass. But if I recall correctly, epoxy is
"thermosetting", not thermoforming. Still, it's vulnerable to heat.
Some epoxies can be made more heat resistant by post curing at a high
temperature. Others won't even cure properly if you don't cook them.
--- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> No real experience, I know on a canoe I helped build years ago, we
used
> epoxy with glass over bare mahogany and it would get real hot
sitting in the
> sun, I don't think you could dent it with a thumb nail but felt
different,
> soft kind of, and if you think of it, epoxy is plastic more or less.
> Plastic will soften in heat. I can't tell you if structurally it
would be a
> problem.
>
> I've also seen laminated decks of foam core with polyester & cloth
look like
> rumble bars in high heat and sun. Painted white and all. You could
feel be
> mushy when walking on it.
>
> Jeff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <richard@s...>
> To: <bolger@y...>
> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 9:24 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: dark epoxy.
>
>
> > --- In bolger@y..., staehpj1@h... wrote:
> >
> > > > deck that aren't light, it will soften the epoxy.
> > >
> > > Is this a real problem that anyone has actually experienced? Or
is
> > > it just something that you suspect might happen? How bad is
> > > the "softening" and in what ways will it affect the boat?
> > >
> > This is a very interesting question. Anybody done any testing?
Have
> > any experiance with this?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
like
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
Sam Devlin speaks of this problem in his book. He refers to "print
through", where the weave of the cloth becomes visible after some time --
right through paint and all. He attributes it to the epoxy creeping at
higher temperatures (starting around 140 degrees, I think) and has found
that dark colours retain significantly more of the sun's heat than light
colours. His solution is to use white or very light colours on the
topsides.
Working from memory here, but I think he also said that epoxies with less
hardener in proportion to resin resisted heat better -- that is, a 5:1 mix
would stand up better than a 2:1 mix. That would indicate that WEST would
stand up better than System 3 or MAS, however I see by their advertising
that Devlin has been using MAS for at least a couple of years now.
My chebacco was built with 2:1 epoxy, and has green topsides and tan decks.
I live just a bit north of Puget Sound where Devlin builds, and I've had no
problem with my finish (so far). However, the boat lives under a tarp in a
relatively shady spot when not in use, so maybe that's misleading.
Maybe someone living in Florida or some other warm place could comment?
Jamie Orr
-----Original Message-----
From:richard@...[mailto:richard@...]
Sent: August 27, 2001 8:24 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: dark epoxy.
through", where the weave of the cloth becomes visible after some time --
right through paint and all. He attributes it to the epoxy creeping at
higher temperatures (starting around 140 degrees, I think) and has found
that dark colours retain significantly more of the sun's heat than light
colours. His solution is to use white or very light colours on the
topsides.
Working from memory here, but I think he also said that epoxies with less
hardener in proportion to resin resisted heat better -- that is, a 5:1 mix
would stand up better than a 2:1 mix. That would indicate that WEST would
stand up better than System 3 or MAS, however I see by their advertising
that Devlin has been using MAS for at least a couple of years now.
My chebacco was built with 2:1 epoxy, and has green topsides and tan decks.
I live just a bit north of Puget Sound where Devlin builds, and I've had no
problem with my finish (so far). However, the boat lives under a tarp in a
relatively shady spot when not in use, so maybe that's misleading.
Maybe someone living in Florida or some other warm place could comment?
Jamie Orr
-----Original Message-----
From:richard@...[mailto:richard@...]
Sent: August 27, 2001 8:24 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: dark epoxy.
--- In bolger@y..., staehpj1@h... wrote:
> > deck that aren't light, it will soften the epoxy.
>
> Is this a real problem that anyone has actually experienced? Or is
> it just something that you suspect might happen? How bad is
> the "softening" and in what ways will it affect the boat?
>
This is a very interesting question. Anybody done any testing? Have
any experiance with this?
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
No real experience, I know on a canoe I helped build years ago, we used
epoxy with glass over bare mahogany and it would get real hot sitting in the
sun, I don't think you could dent it with a thumb nail but felt different,
soft kind of, and if you think of it, epoxy is plastic more or less.
Plastic will soften in heat. I can't tell you if structurally it would be a
problem.
I've also seen laminated decks of foam core with polyester & cloth look like
rumble bars in high heat and sun. Painted white and all. You could feel be
mushy when walking on it.
Jeff
epoxy with glass over bare mahogany and it would get real hot sitting in the
sun, I don't think you could dent it with a thumb nail but felt different,
soft kind of, and if you think of it, epoxy is plastic more or less.
Plastic will soften in heat. I can't tell you if structurally it would be a
problem.
I've also seen laminated decks of foam core with polyester & cloth look like
rumble bars in high heat and sun. Painted white and all. You could feel be
mushy when walking on it.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: <richard@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 9:24 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: dark epoxy.
> --- In bolger@y..., staehpj1@h... wrote:
>
> > > deck that aren't light, it will soften the epoxy.
> >
> > Is this a real problem that anyone has actually experienced? Or is
> > it just something that you suspect might happen? How bad is
> > the "softening" and in what ways will it affect the boat?
> >
> This is a very interesting question. Anybody done any testing? Have
> any experiance with this?
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
--- In bolger@y..., staehpj1@h... wrote:
any experiance with this?
> > deck that aren't light, it will soften the epoxy.This is a very interesting question. Anybody done any testing? Have
>
> Is this a real problem that anyone has actually experienced? Or is
> it just something that you suspect might happen? How bad is
> the "softening" and in what ways will it affect the boat?
>
any experiance with this?
--- In bolger@y..., richard@s... wrote:
as long as I can build in my garage without putting a
bunch of stuff into storage. Plus, I have some old
1920's and '30s outboards with lots of polished bronze
castings that would look good sitting on the transom.
Have already recieved my order of bronze ringed nails
from Jamestown and the epoxy is coming from Raka.
I think I will just go with the BC pine as on my current
boat, and probably will not epoxy/glass anything except
the chines and other exposed edge grain. Latex primer
and gloss latex paint. Sail will be polytarp and it
will be a lug (Norm's boat has the option of a gaff.)
If I had your sail-trimming ability, I might try the
gaff. Maybe on the next one.
The "keel laying" should happen in about 3 weeks, and
completion to be in time for next June's Midwest messabout.
All the above assumes that my wife will give me permission.
Max
> Whatcha building Max?Looks like its Norm's boat. I liked that AF2, but 18 ft is
>
>
as long as I can build in my garage without putting a
bunch of stuff into storage. Plus, I have some old
1920's and '30s outboards with lots of polished bronze
castings that would look good sitting on the transom.
Have already recieved my order of bronze ringed nails
from Jamestown and the epoxy is coming from Raka.
I think I will just go with the BC pine as on my current
boat, and probably will not epoxy/glass anything except
the chines and other exposed edge grain. Latex primer
and gloss latex paint. Sail will be polytarp and it
will be a lug (Norm's boat has the option of a gaff.)
If I had your sail-trimming ability, I might try the
gaff. Maybe on the next one.
The "keel laying" should happen in about 3 weeks, and
completion to be in time for next June's Midwest messabout.
All the above assumes that my wife will give me permission.
Max
--- In bolger@y..., "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@m...> wrote:
it just something that you suspect might happen? How bad is
the "softening" and in what ways will it affect the boat?
BTW: I have used both RAKA and West and found them to both work as
advertised. I have had some issues with slow or erratic curing with
West, but that was with a can that had been around for quite a few
years, so age was probably the problem.
Pete Staehling
> Something I might want to explore in the future is a more heat(i.e.
> resistant epoxy, but that seems to limit my control of the cure
> adjust fast or slow depending on temperature), at least in the mostIs this a real problem that anyone has actually experienced? Or is
> heat resistant case. I think in a lot of cases if we use colors on
> deck that aren't light, it will soften the epoxy.
it just something that you suspect might happen? How bad is
the "softening" and in what ways will it affect the boat?
BTW: I have used both RAKA and West and found them to both work as
advertised. I have had some issues with slow or erratic curing with
West, but that was with a can that had been around for quite a few
years, so age was probably the problem.
Pete Staehling
I've used Raka for Frolic2 and now my Tennessee. I find it easy to work
with, thin enough to absorb nice, and very little if any blush. (which may
just a feature of our dry weather and low humidity) So far I've had no
problems and very economical.
Jeff
with, thin enough to absorb nice, and very little if any blush. (which may
just a feature of our dry weather and low humidity) So far I've had no
problems and very economical.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: <cadbury@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 6:52 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Lighten up!
> --- In bolger@y..., staehpj1@h... wrote:
> > Did I miss something?
> >
> > Which thread(s) are you referring to? The epoxy one? I haven't
> seen
> > anything that was very out of line, in my opinion at least. I mean
> > it is ok to disagree right?
> >
> > We do need to be civil to each other, but disagreeing is perfectly
> > acceptable.
> >
> > Pete Staehling
> >
> > PS: I'll apologise in advance if I missed something that was truly
> > offensive.
> >
>
> Well, I'm having fun. although there are a few here how take
> this all too seriously.
>
> I ordered 3 gallons of Raka epoxy Friday morning, which is the brand
> I have used before. If someone has independent proof that I would
> be better off spending lots more money on Gougeon, I would love to
> hear it. But quoting Gougeon literature is not "proof," and for
> everyone who has used Gougeon and had good results, there is someone
> who has used Raka and had equally good results. Same for bad
> experiences. If this "proof" exists, I will change brands.
> Otherwise, I am going to save the money. As of yet, no one
> has offered any proof that one brand of epoxy is any "better"
> than another.
>
> As far as the discussion on epoxy saturation, the only coment I
> made on that subject was that, on my next boat, IF I coat it with
> epoxy, I will also use cloth. That was all I said on that subject.
>
> Now I have Gougeon-lovers after me (but not offering any "proof")
> and the epoxy-encapsulation proponets chasing me (and I wasn't
> even involved in that!)
>
> I wouldn't be so paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get me.
>
>
> Max
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Whatcha building Max?
--- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:
>
> I ordered 3 gallons of Raka epoxy Friday morning, which is the brand
> I have used before. If someone has independent proof that I would
> be better off spending lots more money on Gougeon, I would love to
> hear it. But quoting Gougeon literature is not "proof," and for
> everyone who has used Gougeon and had good results, there is someone
> who has used Raka and had equally good results. Same for bad
> experiences. If this "proof" exists, I will change brands.
> Otherwise, I am going to save the money. As of yet, no one
> has offered any proof that one brand of epoxy is any "better"
> than another.
>
> As far as the discussion on epoxy saturation, the only coment I
> made on that subject was that, on my next boat, IF I coat it with
> epoxy, I will also use cloth. That was all I said on that subject.
>
> Now I have Gougeon-lovers after me (but not offering any "proof")
> and the epoxy-encapsulation proponets chasing me (and I wasn't
> even involved in that!)
>
> I wouldn't be so paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get me.
>
>
> Max
I've used Raka, and it does blush, though I seem to recall they also
offer a no blush version for more bux. Raka seems to behave just as
it's supposed to. In my experience the temperature and humidity at
time of application are what determine blushing. Epoxy put on when
it's a bit cool out ends up with a layer of slime on it (easily washed
off). On hot dry days, no slime.
Something I might want to explore in the future is a more heat
resistant epoxy, but that seems to limit my control of the cure (i.e.
adjust fast or slow depending on temperature), at least in the most
heat resistant case. I think in a lot of cases if we use colors on
deck that aren't light, it will soften the epoxy.
I've mucked around with some other brands of epoxy, and they all seem
similar, but I haven't used WEST yet. An exception is the System 3
Phase Two, which is weird stuff but seems to work as advertised. I
haven't carefully tested it's properties yet, though.
offer a no blush version for more bux. Raka seems to behave just as
it's supposed to. In my experience the temperature and humidity at
time of application are what determine blushing. Epoxy put on when
it's a bit cool out ends up with a layer of slime on it (easily washed
off). On hot dry days, no slime.
Something I might want to explore in the future is a more heat
resistant epoxy, but that seems to limit my control of the cure (i.e.
adjust fast or slow depending on temperature), at least in the most
heat resistant case. I think in a lot of cases if we use colors on
deck that aren't light, it will soften the epoxy.
I've mucked around with some other brands of epoxy, and they all seem
similar, but I haven't used WEST yet. An exception is the System 3
Phase Two, which is weird stuff but seems to work as advertised. I
haven't carefully tested it's properties yet, though.
--- In bolger@y..., "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
> > I ordered 3 gallons of Raka epoxy Friday morning, which is the
brand
> > I have used before. If someone has independent proof that I would
> > be better off spending lots more money on Gougeon, I would love to
> > hear it.
> >
> Good morning, Max:
>
> I have used West, System Three, and Raka. The West was the only one
that
> ever blushed. Larry, at Raka, gives good service, and I can find no
fault
> in his product. I have built three boats with them.
>
> Chuck
> I ordered 3 gallons of Raka epoxy Friday morning, which is the brandGood morning, Max:
> I have used before. If someone has independent proof that I would
> be better off spending lots more money on Gougeon, I would love to
> hear it.
>
I have used West, System Three, and Raka. The West was the only one that
ever blushed. Larry, at Raka, gives good service, and I can find no fault
in his product. I have built three boats with them.
Chuck
--- In bolger@y..., staehpj1@h... wrote:
this all too seriously.
I ordered 3 gallons of Raka epoxy Friday morning, which is the brand
I have used before. If someone has independent proof that I would
be better off spending lots more money on Gougeon, I would love to
hear it. But quoting Gougeon literature is not "proof," and for
everyone who has used Gougeon and had good results, there is someone
who has used Raka and had equally good results. Same for bad
experiences. If this "proof" exists, I will change brands.
Otherwise, I am going to save the money. As of yet, no one
has offered any proof that one brand of epoxy is any "better"
than another.
As far as the discussion on epoxy saturation, the only coment I
made on that subject was that, on my next boat, IF I coat it with
epoxy, I will also use cloth. That was all I said on that subject.
Now I have Gougeon-lovers after me (but not offering any "proof")
and the epoxy-encapsulation proponets chasing me (and I wasn't
even involved in that!)
I wouldn't be so paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get me.
Max
> Did I miss something?seen
>
> Which thread(s) are you referring to? The epoxy one? I haven't
> anything that was very out of line, in my opinion at least. I meanWell, I'm having fun. although there are a few here how take
> it is ok to disagree right?
>
> We do need to be civil to each other, but disagreeing is perfectly
> acceptable.
>
> Pete Staehling
>
> PS: I'll apologise in advance if I missed something that was truly
> offensive.
>
this all too seriously.
I ordered 3 gallons of Raka epoxy Friday morning, which is the brand
I have used before. If someone has independent proof that I would
be better off spending lots more money on Gougeon, I would love to
hear it. But quoting Gougeon literature is not "proof," and for
everyone who has used Gougeon and had good results, there is someone
who has used Raka and had equally good results. Same for bad
experiences. If this "proof" exists, I will change brands.
Otherwise, I am going to save the money. As of yet, no one
has offered any proof that one brand of epoxy is any "better"
than another.
As far as the discussion on epoxy saturation, the only coment I
made on that subject was that, on my next boat, IF I coat it with
epoxy, I will also use cloth. That was all I said on that subject.
Now I have Gougeon-lovers after me (but not offering any "proof")
and the epoxy-encapsulation proponets chasing me (and I wasn't
even involved in that!)
I wouldn't be so paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get me.
Max
When I brouse this list, I do so for fun, pleasure and instruction. What I
do not like to see is an ongoing pissing contest between guys who, frankly,
should know better. Judging by other emails I've seen, I'm not alone in my
views, so would the guilty parties kindly take their insulting, nit-picking
behaviour off-line where it won't offend the rest of us?
Thanks,
Bill Samson
do not like to see is an ongoing pissing contest between guys who, frankly,
should know better. Judging by other emails I've seen, I'm not alone in my
views, so would the guilty parties kindly take their insulting, nit-picking
behaviour off-line where it won't offend the rest of us?
Thanks,
Bill Samson