Re: [bolger] Re: A Bolger Sailing Dory?
Putting that Ideal Series index together has addled my brain, all the
designs seem to run together... <g> The smaller Atkin flat-sided dories I
was thinkin of are power boats, the small _sailing_ dories are round-sided.
Perhaps the sailing dory idea just doesn't work well until the boats get
bigger. The boats Chapelle and Sucher call "Cape Ann" dories, sort of Bank
dories modified for sail by widening the bottoms a bit and adding a
centerboard, among other things, are a bit bigger than the usual bank dory
(almost 23' in Chappy's example and 24' for Sucher's). Apparently St.
Pierre dories can be successfully modified for sail, they start at around
27', IIRC. An Oregon boatbuilder, Bill Childs, designed and built a 19'
version of a Cape Ann dory that sailed so poorly he ended up ripping out
the centerboard trunk, her current owner uses her as a rowboat and
powerboat (she's good at those tasks). So maybe it's just a bad idea to try
making a flat-sided sailing dory much smaller than about 21'...
I forgot to mention that Abie Porpoise (22'4") and Pemaquid (20'11") have
ballast keels and inboard auxiliaries.
designs seem to run together... <g> The smaller Atkin flat-sided dories I
was thinkin of are power boats, the small _sailing_ dories are round-sided.
Perhaps the sailing dory idea just doesn't work well until the boats get
bigger. The boats Chapelle and Sucher call "Cape Ann" dories, sort of Bank
dories modified for sail by widening the bottoms a bit and adding a
centerboard, among other things, are a bit bigger than the usual bank dory
(almost 23' in Chappy's example and 24' for Sucher's). Apparently St.
Pierre dories can be successfully modified for sail, they start at around
27', IIRC. An Oregon boatbuilder, Bill Childs, designed and built a 19'
version of a Cape Ann dory that sailed so poorly he ended up ripping out
the centerboard trunk, her current owner uses her as a rowboat and
powerboat (she's good at those tasks). So maybe it's just a bad idea to try
making a flat-sided sailing dory much smaller than about 21'...
I forgot to mention that Abie Porpoise (22'4") and Pemaquid (20'11") have
ballast keels and inboard auxiliaries.
On Mon, 01 Oct 2001 18:46:24 -0700, I wrote:
> The Atkins, per and fils, have designed some smallish sailing dories. A
> couple of them can be seen here:
>
>http://www.boat-links.com/images/AbiePorpoise.gif
>
>http://www.boat-links.com/images/Pemaquid.gif
>
> They also did some smaller ones that I don't have scans for.
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
I must say I find television very educational. The minute somebody turns
it on, I go to the library and read a good book. <Groucho Marx>
At the risk of utter humiliation at the hands of the group, I'll point out a
dory-type that ought to sail reasonably well. I've drawn an 11' x4' dory
(rowing version only). It could stand a modest sail rig. So I've been
thinking of fitting it with the 59 sq. ft. leg o'mutton off of Bolger's Teal
and a Windsprint style bilge-daggerboard.
Go to Duckworks and look in the designs section if you are interested in the
rowing version. The sailing version only exists in my head at the moment,
but that is sure to change if there is interest.
Also, I'll have to disagree with Don (StepHydro) about dories being poor row
boats. Maybe the old heavy high-sided banks dories were crummy to row. But a
modern, low, light plywood dory rows pretty darn well. Lightweight Whitehall
types my row better in a chop, but the dory is quite a performer especially
considering how much less expense and complexity they have in comparison.
John Bell <><
Kennesaw, GA
http://jmbell.home.mindspring.com
mailto:jmbell@...- personal email
dory-type that ought to sail reasonably well. I've drawn an 11' x4' dory
(rowing version only). It could stand a modest sail rig. So I've been
thinking of fitting it with the 59 sq. ft. leg o'mutton off of Bolger's Teal
and a Windsprint style bilge-daggerboard.
Go to Duckworks and look in the designs section if you are interested in the
rowing version. The sailing version only exists in my head at the moment,
but that is sure to change if there is interest.
Also, I'll have to disagree with Don (StepHydro) about dories being poor row
boats. Maybe the old heavy high-sided banks dories were crummy to row. But a
modern, low, light plywood dory rows pretty darn well. Lightweight Whitehall
types my row better in a chop, but the dory is quite a performer especially
considering how much less expense and complexity they have in comparison.
John Bell <><
Kennesaw, GA
http://jmbell.home.mindspring.com
mailto:jmbell@...- personal email
----- Original Message -----
From: <jhkohnen@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: A Bolger Sailing Dory?
| The Atkins, per and fils, have designed some smallish sailing dories. A
| couple of them can be seen here:
|
|http://www.boat-links.com/images/AbiePorpoise.gif
|
|http://www.boat-links.com/images/Pemaquid.gif
|
| They also did some smaller ones that I don't have scans for. Look for
| volumes in MoToR BoatinG magazine's Ideal Series. I'm plugging away at
| making an index of the plans in the series, which you can look at here
| (still very much under construction):
|
The Atkins, per and fils, have designed some smallish sailing dories. A
couple of them can be seen here:
http://www.boat-links.com/images/AbiePorpoise.gif
http://www.boat-links.com/images/Pemaquid.gif
They also did some smaller ones that I don't have scans for. Look for
volumes in MoToR BoatinG magazine's Ideal Series. I'm plugging away at
making an index of the plans in the series, which you can look at here
(still very much under construction):
http://www.boat-links.com/Ideal/index.html
couple of them can be seen here:
http://www.boat-links.com/images/AbiePorpoise.gif
http://www.boat-links.com/images/Pemaquid.gif
They also did some smaller ones that I don't have scans for. Look for
volumes in MoToR BoatinG magazine's Ideal Series. I'm plugging away at
making an index of the plans in the series, which you can look at here
(still very much under construction):
http://www.boat-links.com/Ideal/index.html
On Sun, 30 Sep 2001 20:00:58 -0000, Peter wrote:
> ...
> So, I thought of taking the lines of the Gardner "widened St. Pierre"
> dory and drawing them half size. Add a built-up, Micro-style keel.
> Arrange the rig, rudder and interior somewhat like the Herreshoff.
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
I care not for a man's religion whose dog or cat are not the better for it.
<Abraham Lincoln>
Looking at the sailing dory problem from the other side, consider
this question.
Suppose you begin with a very light dory in the Bolger style, perhaps
with even more flair to the sides. Fit sailing benches on each side
so the sailor can sit well to the side in some comfort. Add a
daggerboard and rig of carefully calculated size.
Is that boat actually going to be any trickier or more uncomfortable
to sail than a Laser, or many of the other modern boats? (Of course,
it won't be as fast due to the narrow stern.)
Peter
this question.
Suppose you begin with a very light dory in the Bolger style, perhaps
with even more flair to the sides. Fit sailing benches on each side
so the sailor can sit well to the side in some comfort. Add a
daggerboard and rig of carefully calculated size.
Is that boat actually going to be any trickier or more uncomfortable
to sail than a Laser, or many of the other modern boats? (Of course,
it won't be as fast due to the narrow stern.)
Peter
The real question is, "What do you mean by a dory?" The defining type
starts with a narrow, longitudinally planked, flat bottom, sawn frames, wide
planks, and a narrow, raking "tombstone" stern. Its straight, flaring sides
result in an obvious lack of stability for sail carrying, however. The
traditional approach to adding stability is to round out the sides in the
manner of Alpha/Beachcomber Swampscotts and Mower Massachusetts Bay racing
dories. These classes also enshrined the traditional, picturesque dory rig,
an almost equilateral, leg-of-mutton main on a plumb mast, well forward,
with a small jib. The narrow stern was preserved as a requirement of racing
rules. Inside ballast was required to keep them on their feet. These
boats are the handsomest of the dories.
Without racing rule constraints, and with freedom to explore modern
construction methods, sailing dory development has progressed in several
directions. One is to improve stability by attaching a fin keel, as in the
manner of Benford's cruising dories or Bolger's "Burgundy", all of which
retain the narrow transom or are double-ended. Another is to add power to a
shoal hull by widening the beam, particularly at the stern. With a straight
sides, you get sharpie designs like "Featherwind" and the Bolger boxes; with
multiple chines, you get "Bobcat" and "Chebacco"; with round sides, you get
designs like Bolger's "Nahant" and "Spartina". All of these can be seen as
developments of the dory toward greater sail-carrying ability. The raking
transom impairs rudder efficiency and shortens waterline length, so if the
transom need not be narrow to conform to rules, it is more efficient to
design it upright.
The original dory rig has two advantages: it is simple to bundle up and step
without stays or main halyard, and the high boom prevents tripping when
heeled. Disadvantages are an inefficient shape, weight of the long boom to
leeward, impossibility of reefing, need to rig some sort of lacing to permit
lowering if stays and halyards are wanted, and the absence of room for a
boom vang. The minimum modification is toward a simple, modern sloop
geometry, as in "Nahant" and "Featherwind".
Bolger has designed many sailing boats with dory ancestry, but preservation
of the distinctive dory characteristics would be sacrificing efficiency for
aesthetics, something he is reluctant to do.
Peter Belenky
starts with a narrow, longitudinally planked, flat bottom, sawn frames, wide
planks, and a narrow, raking "tombstone" stern. Its straight, flaring sides
result in an obvious lack of stability for sail carrying, however. The
traditional approach to adding stability is to round out the sides in the
manner of Alpha/Beachcomber Swampscotts and Mower Massachusetts Bay racing
dories. These classes also enshrined the traditional, picturesque dory rig,
an almost equilateral, leg-of-mutton main on a plumb mast, well forward,
with a small jib. The narrow stern was preserved as a requirement of racing
rules. Inside ballast was required to keep them on their feet. These
boats are the handsomest of the dories.
Without racing rule constraints, and with freedom to explore modern
construction methods, sailing dory development has progressed in several
directions. One is to improve stability by attaching a fin keel, as in the
manner of Benford's cruising dories or Bolger's "Burgundy", all of which
retain the narrow transom or are double-ended. Another is to add power to a
shoal hull by widening the beam, particularly at the stern. With a straight
sides, you get sharpie designs like "Featherwind" and the Bolger boxes; with
multiple chines, you get "Bobcat" and "Chebacco"; with round sides, you get
designs like Bolger's "Nahant" and "Spartina". All of these can be seen as
developments of the dory toward greater sail-carrying ability. The raking
transom impairs rudder efficiency and shortens waterline length, so if the
transom need not be narrow to conform to rules, it is more efficient to
design it upright.
The original dory rig has two advantages: it is simple to bundle up and step
without stays or main halyard, and the high boom prevents tripping when
heeled. Disadvantages are an inefficient shape, weight of the long boom to
leeward, impossibility of reefing, need to rig some sort of lacing to permit
lowering if stays and halyards are wanted, and the absence of room for a
boom vang. The minimum modification is toward a simple, modern sloop
geometry, as in "Nahant" and "Featherwind".
Bolger has designed many sailing boats with dory ancestry, but preservation
of the distinctive dory characteristics would be sacrificing efficiency for
aesthetics, something he is reluctant to do.
Peter Belenky
Dories can be made into good sailboats, but then they're really no
longer dories. The sailing Swampscott dories and the Alphas are a
long way from the original dory shape. The ultimate development of a
sailing dory is the Alden Indian class, or the Town Class, see
http://www.doryclub.org/townclass/tcphoto.htm
for the Townie, and
http://www2.mailordercentral.com/wbstore/prodinfo.asp?number=400-
005&variation=&aitem=1&mitem=23
for a drawing of the Indian Class.
These are very nice boats, and they're built like a dory with
lapstrake sides, sawn frames, longitudinally-planked bottom, but the
hull shape is rather different, much wider, particularly aft, to get
stability under sail. Semi-dories and dory skiffs are better
sailboats - the Cartopper, in fact, is like a simplified dory skiff.
This applies to the smaller sizes - the larger ones with keels like
the Hill's Badger or the ballasted St. Pierre boats (the Thousand
Dollar Yacht) are a different matter.
Keith Wilson
longer dories. The sailing Swampscott dories and the Alphas are a
long way from the original dory shape. The ultimate development of a
sailing dory is the Alden Indian class, or the Town Class, see
http://www.doryclub.org/townclass/tcphoto.htm
for the Townie, and
http://www2.mailordercentral.com/wbstore/prodinfo.asp?number=400-
005&variation=&aitem=1&mitem=23
for a drawing of the Indian Class.
These are very nice boats, and they're built like a dory with
lapstrake sides, sawn frames, longitudinally-planked bottom, but the
hull shape is rather different, much wider, particularly aft, to get
stability under sail. Semi-dories and dory skiffs are better
sailboats - the Cartopper, in fact, is like a simplified dory skiff.
This applies to the smaller sizes - the larger ones with keels like
the Hill's Badger or the ballasted St. Pierre boats (the Thousand
Dollar Yacht) are a different matter.
Keith Wilson
--- In bolger@y..., PseudoDion3@a... wrote:
> Why would I want a sailing Dory? . . .
> The question is whether these work boats can be
> transformed to function as pleasure craft primarily. The sharpie
> designs, which I also find beautiful and attractive, have been
> successfully converted. Why not a Dory?
>
Dennis,
From his published statements over the years, one gets the distinct
feeling that Mr. Bolger thinks that sailing dories are a really
stupid idea. I rather suspect that he would not design one, except
under duress.
Glen-L offers "Alpha-2", an 18' plywood adaptation of the Swampscot
dory. I think Ken Hankinson has drawn a St. Pierre dory with a keel,
rig and cuddy cabin. Jay Benford has a whole line of cruising dories,
from 26' to 37.5'. The most famous of these is Pete and Annie Hill's
Badger, a 34' Chinese lug schooner. Bolger had some dour things to
say about this design, as I recall. Of course, he doesn't like
Chinese lug rigs, either.
My point is that he probably just designed one sailing dory, way back
when he was young and hungry. I believe it was an adaptation of his
Light Dory, and that he didn't think it was a good idea--even then,
porky
From his published statements over the years, one gets the distinct
feeling that Mr. Bolger thinks that sailing dories are a really
stupid idea. I rather suspect that he would not design one, except
under duress.
Glen-L offers "Alpha-2", an 18' plywood adaptation of the Swampscot
dory. I think Ken Hankinson has drawn a St. Pierre dory with a keel,
rig and cuddy cabin. Jay Benford has a whole line of cruising dories,
from 26' to 37.5'. The most famous of these is Pete and Annie Hill's
Badger, a 34' Chinese lug schooner. Bolger had some dour things to
say about this design, as I recall. Of course, he doesn't like
Chinese lug rigs, either.
My point is that he probably just designed one sailing dory, way back
when he was young and hungry. I believe it was an adaptation of his
Light Dory, and that he didn't think it was a good idea--even then,
porky
--- In bolger@y..., PseudoDion3@a... wrote:
> I think that we are all well aware of the fine rowing dories that
> have been created by Mr. Bolger. However, does anyone know if he
> designed any dories that are intended primarily for sail?
>
>
> Dennis Marshall
Why would I want a sailing Dory? That, Peter, is a good question. At
the moment, I can't say I want one so strongly that I would build
one. However, they are attractive boats. Even with all of their
supposed vices, they have quite a heritage which says that they can't
be all bad. The developments by Mower, the beauty of the
Beachcomber/Alpha all have their roots in that humble and perhaps
much maligned design. The question is whether these work boats can be
transformed to function as pleasure craft primarily. The sharpie
designs, which I also find beautiful and attractive, have been
successfully converted. Why not a Dory?
Dennis Marshall
the moment, I can't say I want one so strongly that I would build
one. However, they are attractive boats. Even with all of their
supposed vices, they have quite a heritage which says that they can't
be all bad. The developments by Mower, the beauty of the
Beachcomber/Alpha all have their roots in that humble and perhaps
much maligned design. The question is whether these work boats can be
transformed to function as pleasure craft primarily. The sharpie
designs, which I also find beautiful and attractive, have been
successfully converted. Why not a Dory?
Dennis Marshall
--- In bolger@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote:
>
> PCB's views on sailing dories have been put on paper in several
> places, including the chapter on Nahant in Small Boats, and the
> chapter on Jesse Cooper in 30-Odd Boats.
>
> I was looking at the latter one day, especially on the adaptation
of
> the John Gardner-designed St. Pierre dory when I had an idea. I
was
> struck by the similarity in functional concept between this keel
dory
> and the Herreshoff 12 1/2 Doughdish. In both cases, a hull with
very
> little form stability but a lot of overhang fore, aft, and to the
> sides. In both cases, a heavy keel.
>
> So, I thought of taking the lines of the Gardner "widened St.
Pierre"
> dory and drawing them half size. Add a built-up, Micro-style keel.
> Arrange the rig, rudder and interior somewhat like the Herreshoff.
>
> Well, I understand that Mr. Bolger has produced finished plans for
> his "Plywood 12 /12," so it's not necessary. But, it would have
> worked.
>
> The real question is, Why do you want a sailing dory?
>
> Peter
Peter -
I love this string - I suguest you read "The Thousand Dollar
Yacht" by Anthony Bailey and you'll realize why anyone would want a sailing
dory or check out John Gardners "The Dory Book" page 173 for a view of a
beautiful St. Pierre sailing dory.
Then again it's all "hoarses for coarses". You just have to
love them.
Aloha - Jack Spoering
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I love this string - I suguest you read "The Thousand Dollar
Yacht" by Anthony Bailey and you'll realize why anyone would want a sailing
dory or check out John Gardners "The Dory Book" page 173 for a view of a
beautiful St. Pierre sailing dory.
Then again it's all "hoarses for coarses". You just have to
love them.
Aloha - Jack Spoering
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
PCB's views on sailing dories have been put on paper in several
places, including the chapter on Nahant in Small Boats, and the
chapter on Jesse Cooper in 30-Odd Boats.
I was looking at the latter one day, especially on the adaptation of
the John Gardner-designed St. Pierre dory when I had an idea. I was
struck by the similarity in functional concept between this keel dory
and the Herreshoff 12 1/2 Doughdish. In both cases, a hull with very
little form stability but a lot of overhang fore, aft, and to the
sides. In both cases, a heavy keel.
So, I thought of taking the lines of the Gardner "widened St. Pierre"
dory and drawing them half size. Add a built-up, Micro-style keel.
Arrange the rig, rudder and interior somewhat like the Herreshoff.
Well, I understand that Mr. Bolger has produced finished plans for
his "Plywood 12 /12," so it's not necessary. But, it would have
worked.
The real question is, Why do you want a sailing dory?
Peter
places, including the chapter on Nahant in Small Boats, and the
chapter on Jesse Cooper in 30-Odd Boats.
I was looking at the latter one day, especially on the adaptation of
the John Gardner-designed St. Pierre dory when I had an idea. I was
struck by the similarity in functional concept between this keel dory
and the Herreshoff 12 1/2 Doughdish. In both cases, a hull with very
little form stability but a lot of overhang fore, aft, and to the
sides. In both cases, a heavy keel.
So, I thought of taking the lines of the Gardner "widened St. Pierre"
dory and drawing them half size. Add a built-up, Micro-style keel.
Arrange the rig, rudder and interior somewhat like the Herreshoff.
Well, I understand that Mr. Bolger has produced finished plans for
his "Plywood 12 /12," so it's not necessary. But, it would have
worked.
The real question is, Why do you want a sailing dory?
Peter
Hi
Sugguest you get a copy (used book - no longer in print) of "The
Thousand Dollar Yacht" by Bailey. Well worth whatever you have to pay.
Jack Spoering - Ft Lauderdale, Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sugguest you get a copy (used book - no longer in print) of "The
Thousand Dollar Yacht" by Bailey. Well worth whatever you have to pay.
Jack Spoering - Ft Lauderdale, Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Steve, thanks for calling that little gem to mind. I had been reading
and studying Gardner's "Building Classic Small Craft" and admiring
the modified Swampscott and the Chamberlain Gunning Skiff which is
rather Dory Like. I guess that I was hoping that the 40 yrs since his
disappointing dory designing experience he might have applied some of
his experience and insights into a sailing Dory design that I had not
heard about. Keeping up with his prolific output is rather difficult.
While I know that he has contributed to MAIB on design over the
years, I am rather new to the field and have missed much. Can one get
copies of his design articles from MAIB? Inquiries mailed to the
editor have not been answered.
Dennis Marshall -- wistfully settling in to grade student papers
because the beautiful sunny day here in Grand Rapids is positively
calm!
and studying Gardner's "Building Classic Small Craft" and admiring
the modified Swampscott and the Chamberlain Gunning Skiff which is
rather Dory Like. I guess that I was hoping that the 40 yrs since his
disappointing dory designing experience he might have applied some of
his experience and insights into a sailing Dory design that I had not
heard about. Keeping up with his prolific output is rather difficult.
While I know that he has contributed to MAIB on design over the
years, I am rather new to the field and have missed much. Can one get
copies of his design articles from MAIB? Inquiries mailed to the
editor have not been answered.
Dennis Marshall -- wistfully settling in to grade student papers
because the beautiful sunny day here in Grand Rapids is positively
calm!
--- In bolger@y..., stephen@p... wrote:
> Dennis: I've not seen it, but he apparently did design a sailing
> dory long ago, in the range of 15-16 feet. He mentions it in his
> writeup on Featherwind in Small Boats, and concludes that
Featherwind
> is the boat he should have designed instead. Here's what he says
> about the dory.
>
> "Around 1961 I let myself be talked into designing a sailing dory
> about this size. Even then I knew better, but a boatbuilder who
was
> putting out rowing dories from a model of mine had a massive file
of
> correspondence demanding a sailing version . . . I widened the
bottom
> and reduced the rake of the stern , filled out the curve of the
ends
> in plan view, and worked in a heavy steel centerboard, all with a
> view to giving the tender and tippy dory some power to carry sail.
> When I came to try the boat, knowing what to expect of her, I
thought
> she was pretty good; she felt lively and went where she looked, and
> she could be kept on her feet if you paid close attention."
>
> Steve Paskey
> Washington, DC
>
> --- In bolger@y..., PseudoDion3@a... wrote:
> > I think that we are all well aware of the fine rowing dories that
> > have been created by Mr. Bolger. However, does anyone know if he
> > designed any dories that are intended primarily for sail?
> >
> >
> > Dennis Marshall
Dennis: I've not seen it, but he apparently did design a sailing
dory long ago, in the range of 15-16 feet. He mentions it in his
writeup on Featherwind in Small Boats, and concludes that Featherwind
is the boat he should have designed instead. Here's what he says
about the dory.
"Around 1961 I let myself be talked into designing a sailing dory
about this size. Even then I knew better, but a boatbuilder who was
putting out rowing dories from a model of mine had a massive file of
correspondence demanding a sailing version . . . I widened the bottom
and reduced the rake of the stern , filled out the curve of the ends
in plan view, and worked in a heavy steel centerboard, all with a
view to giving the tender and tippy dory some power to carry sail.
When I came to try the boat, knowing what to expect of her, I thought
she was pretty good; she felt lively and went where she looked, and
she could be kept on her feet if you paid close attention."
Steve Paskey
Washington, DC
dory long ago, in the range of 15-16 feet. He mentions it in his
writeup on Featherwind in Small Boats, and concludes that Featherwind
is the boat he should have designed instead. Here's what he says
about the dory.
"Around 1961 I let myself be talked into designing a sailing dory
about this size. Even then I knew better, but a boatbuilder who was
putting out rowing dories from a model of mine had a massive file of
correspondence demanding a sailing version . . . I widened the bottom
and reduced the rake of the stern , filled out the curve of the ends
in plan view, and worked in a heavy steel centerboard, all with a
view to giving the tender and tippy dory some power to carry sail.
When I came to try the boat, knowing what to expect of her, I thought
she was pretty good; she felt lively and went where she looked, and
she could be kept on her feet if you paid close attention."
Steve Paskey
Washington, DC
--- In bolger@y..., PseudoDion3@a... wrote:
> I think that we are all well aware of the fine rowing dories that
> have been created by Mr. Bolger. However, does anyone know if he
> designed any dories that are intended primarily for sail?
>
>
> Dennis Marshall
I think that we are all well aware of the fine rowing dories that
have been created by Mr. Bolger. However, does anyone know if he
designed any dories that are intended primarily for sail?
Dennis Marshall
have been created by Mr. Bolger. However, does anyone know if he
designed any dories that are intended primarily for sail?
Dennis Marshall