Re: [bolger] Re: Why not a Dory?
Pacific City dories used to be much more dory-like. Harry V. Sucher took
the lines of a "modern 20' Oregon surf dory" he found at Depoe Bay in 1958,
it's a bit wider (top and bottom) than a bank dory, with quite a bit more
rocker, but is doube-ended on the bottom with a tombstone transom. Kinda
like a small St. Pierre dory. A friend of mine has an even older version in
his yard that's double-ended, with no transom at all. What happened is that
powerful outboards got cheaper and the boats started spreading out aft and
became planing boats that look a lot like skiffs. The old boats ran at
displacement speed and look like they were seaworthy enough to ride out
some nasty weather, the new style boats' strategy is to outrun the weather
and ride out the storms safely sitting on their trailer while their crews
sit in a nice warm tavern and listen to the wind howl. Sounds good to me.
<g> With the more accurate weather prediction we have today the strategy
works fine, and the faster new boats can fish farther offshore (the dories
are day fishermen, they have to get to the fishing grounds and back in the
same day).
The Oregon dories weren't designed for the Columbia River bar, they
developed for fishing off the beach, mostly at Pacific City (SW of
Tillamook). They've been used all up and down the coast though, the
new-style boats are often used as day fishing boats out of real harbors,
never being launched off a beach.
the lines of a "modern 20' Oregon surf dory" he found at Depoe Bay in 1958,
it's a bit wider (top and bottom) than a bank dory, with quite a bit more
rocker, but is doube-ended on the bottom with a tombstone transom. Kinda
like a small St. Pierre dory. A friend of mine has an even older version in
his yard that's double-ended, with no transom at all. What happened is that
powerful outboards got cheaper and the boats started spreading out aft and
became planing boats that look a lot like skiffs. The old boats ran at
displacement speed and look like they were seaworthy enough to ride out
some nasty weather, the new style boats' strategy is to outrun the weather
and ride out the storms safely sitting on their trailer while their crews
sit in a nice warm tavern and listen to the wind howl. Sounds good to me.
<g> With the more accurate weather prediction we have today the strategy
works fine, and the faster new boats can fish farther offshore (the dories
are day fishermen, they have to get to the fishing grounds and back in the
same day).
The Oregon dories weren't designed for the Columbia River bar, they
developed for fishing off the beach, mostly at Pacific City (SW of
Tillamook). They've been used all up and down the coast though, the
new-style boats are often used as day fishing boats out of real harbors,
never being launched off a beach.
On Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:56:03 -0600, Jeff wrote:
> With all this knowledge about Dories, I ask a question. I know the Pacific
> Dory is build with a flat run and generally a straight run aft. What is the
> advantage other than shallow draft? It seems that it would get pushed
> around severely in a following sea but yet they where designed to be used at
> the mouth of the Columbia where some of the roughest seas in the USA can be
> found. They use it to train the Coast Guard! They are obviously very
> seaworthy boats to Salmon fish 10 to 12 miles out, but what makes them that
> way.
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety. <Benjamin Franklin>
They go into the breaking sea/surf very well at slow speeds as long as
the bottom is strong enough when they fall off a wave top. . I never
ran down wind in real weather, but it tracked absolutely straight in
25kts and 6-8 ft swells with whitecaps. You don't go at displacement
speeds, you surf or run off the top into the next swell.
HJ
Jeff Blunck wrote:
the bottom is strong enough when they fall off a wave top. . I never
ran down wind in real weather, but it tracked absolutely straight in
25kts and 6-8 ft swells with whitecaps. You don't go at displacement
speeds, you surf or run off the top into the next swell.
HJ
Jeff Blunck wrote:
>
> With all this knowledge about Dories, I ask a question. I know the Pacific
> Dory is build with a flat run and generally a straight run aft. What is the
> advantage other than shallow draft? It seems that it would get pushed
> around severely in a following sea but yet they where designed to be used at
> the mouth of the Columbia where some of the roughest seas in the USA can be
> found. They use it to train the Coast Guard! They are obviously very
> seaworthy boats to Salmon fish 10 to 12 miles out, but what makes them that
> way.
>
> Or is it just accepted for it's fallacies and used because it's shallow
> draft and can carry a large load.
>
> I like dories personally, kind of nostalgic looking.
>
> Jeff
>
>
With all this knowledge about Dories, I ask a question. I know the Pacific
Dory is build with a flat run and generally a straight run aft. What is the
advantage other than shallow draft? It seems that it would get pushed
around severely in a following sea but yet they where designed to be used at
the mouth of the Columbia where some of the roughest seas in the USA can be
found. They use it to train the Coast Guard! They are obviously very
seaworthy boats to Salmon fish 10 to 12 miles out, but what makes them that
way.
Or is it just accepted for it's fallacies and used because it's shallow
draft and can carry a large load.
I like dories personally, kind of nostalgic looking.
Jeff
Dory is build with a flat run and generally a straight run aft. What is the
advantage other than shallow draft? It seems that it would get pushed
around severely in a following sea but yet they where designed to be used at
the mouth of the Columbia where some of the roughest seas in the USA can be
found. They use it to train the Coast Guard! They are obviously very
seaworthy boats to Salmon fish 10 to 12 miles out, but what makes them that
way.
Or is it just accepted for it's fallacies and used because it's shallow
draft and can carry a large load.
I like dories personally, kind of nostalgic looking.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: <stephen@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 2:45 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Why not a Dory?
> Exactly. The boats Gardner calls a "semi-dory" have a bottom that's
> squared off at the base of the transom, whereas the boats he calls a
> "dory skiff" come to a point at the base of the transom. (Joel
> White's Shellback dinghy is a dory skiff.)
>
> By the way, Bolger has designed a boat with a sail that looks much
> like a double-ended surf dory: Sweet Pea. Dynamite can call it
> anything he wants, but PCB himself referred to it as a surf dory in
> BWOM.
>
> Steve Paskey
>
> --- In bolger@y..., kwilson800@a... wrote:
> > According to John Gardner, who probably ought to know, a semi-dory
> is a boat that looks like a normal round-sided dory with the back
> third sawed off and a new wider transom installed. A dory skiff,
> OTOH, looks like the same dory with only the back 20% sawed off.
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Exactly. The boats Gardner calls a "semi-dory" have a bottom that's
squared off at the base of the transom, whereas the boats he calls a
"dory skiff" come to a point at the base of the transom. (Joel
White's Shellback dinghy is a dory skiff.)
By the way, Bolger has designed a boat with a sail that looks much
like a double-ended surf dory: Sweet Pea. Dynamite can call it
anything he wants, but PCB himself referred to it as a surf dory in
BWOM.
Steve Paskey
squared off at the base of the transom, whereas the boats he calls a
"dory skiff" come to a point at the base of the transom. (Joel
White's Shellback dinghy is a dory skiff.)
By the way, Bolger has designed a boat with a sail that looks much
like a double-ended surf dory: Sweet Pea. Dynamite can call it
anything he wants, but PCB himself referred to it as a surf dory in
BWOM.
Steve Paskey
--- In bolger@y..., kwilson800@a... wrote:
> According to John Gardner, who probably ought to know, a semi-dory
is a boat that looks like a normal round-sided dory with the back
third sawed off and a new wider transom installed. A dory skiff,
OTOH, looks like the same dory with only the back 20% sawed off.
According to John Gardner, who probably ought to know, a semi-dory is
a boat that looks like a normal round-sided dory with the back third
sawed off and a new wider transom installed. A dory skiff, OTOH,
looks like the same dory with only the back 20% sawed off. Power
semi-dories often have completely flat bottoms. If Cartopper is a
dory skiff adapted to taped-seam construction, then Diablo is a semi-
dory simplified the same way. Gardner's "Dory Book" has a great
discussion of the evolution of the dory as a response to the
availability of wide machine-sawn boards and inexpensive iron
fasteners.
a boat that looks like a normal round-sided dory with the back third
sawed off and a new wider transom installed. A dory skiff, OTOH,
looks like the same dory with only the back 20% sawed off. Power
semi-dories often have completely flat bottoms. If Cartopper is a
dory skiff adapted to taped-seam construction, then Diablo is a semi-
dory simplified the same way. Gardner's "Dory Book" has a great
discussion of the evolution of the dory as a response to the
availability of wide machine-sawn boards and inexpensive iron
fasteners.
--- In bolger@y..., pateson@c... wrote:
> And, what the heck is a "Semi-Dory"?
Hi All -
It might be interesting to look at th "San Francisco Pelican".
A combination of the oriental Sampan and the American Dory. Plans are
available in 12' 16' and 18' lengths Check out the website -
http://www.ns.net/~jheidgr/pub/pelican.htm
Go to Information about the designer (Bill Short - fastinating)
at the bottom of the page then view the photos and other links.
It's a very interesting design - a 12 footer has been sailed to
Hawaii and there is a lot of class racing going on especially on the west
coast.
Plans are available at a very reasonable price from Bills wife Murial at :
pelicansailboat@...
A friend and I are just starting to enlarge this design to 24'
and there are several 20'rs now sailing.
Aloha - Jack Spoering - Ft Lauderdale,
Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It might be interesting to look at th "San Francisco Pelican".
A combination of the oriental Sampan and the American Dory. Plans are
available in 12' 16' and 18' lengths Check out the website -
http://www.ns.net/~jheidgr/pub/pelican.htm
Go to Information about the designer (Bill Short - fastinating)
at the bottom of the page then view the photos and other links.
It's a very interesting design - a 12 footer has been sailed to
Hawaii and there is a lot of class racing going on especially on the west
coast.
Plans are available at a very reasonable price from Bills wife Murial at :
pelicansailboat@...
A friend and I are just starting to enlarge this design to 24'
and there are several 20'rs now sailing.
Aloha - Jack Spoering - Ft Lauderdale,
Fl
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think that this is one of the most interesting threads I've seen.
Saying the word "Dory" conjures up a whole range of things. It is
truly a magical word.
Now, while I have enjoyed the thread, I have also learned a
great deal for which I am grateful. I would like to thank those who
have pointed out to me how Dories have developed in an effort to
increase stability and sail carrying capacity. As to my comments on
Sharpies, know only that I had in mind the modified designs Bolger
has developed over the years. I rarely see folks sailing traditional
sharpies, but many seem to go for the designs that Bolger and
Michalak base on traditional sharpie thinking.
Dennis Marshall
Saying the word "Dory" conjures up a whole range of things. It is
truly a magical word.
Now, while I have enjoyed the thread, I have also learned a
great deal for which I am grateful. I would like to thank those who
have pointed out to me how Dories have developed in an effort to
increase stability and sail carrying capacity. As to my comments on
Sharpies, know only that I had in mind the modified designs Bolger
has developed over the years. I rarely see folks sailing traditional
sharpies, but many seem to go for the designs that Bolger and
Michalak base on traditional sharpie thinking.
Dennis Marshall
As in Oregon Dory or Pacific Dory? They arn't dories, but skiffs with
highly flared sides.
highly flared sides.
>
> And, What the heck is a "Semi-Dory"?
> As in "Semi-planing, Semi-dory". I get confused
> at that point.
>
> Pat Patteson
> Molalla, Oregon
>
>
I think that the most appealing aspects of the dory are its strong
sheer and the *apparent* simplicity of construction (anyone thinking
that dories are simple to build should try to sort out the angles on
a tombstone transom). Bolger has answered the construction question
with numerous sharpie designs. Strong sheer and simply construction
can be found in many boats that are most decidedly not dories. George
Buehler's V-bottomed chine boats come immediately to mind, as does
Bolger's own _Burgandy_ (a modified sharpie inspired by
L.F.Herreshoff's _Rozinante_ design). Most of the recreational
vessels we call dories, including Bolger's Light Dory, are only
dories in general outline. Even the Swampscot dories have lost their
essential "dory nature". I doubt they could easily nest on the deck
of a Glouchester schooner, and they could certainly not carry a ton
of dead cod any distance in a seaway.
Anyone enamored of the idea of a sailing dory should look to the many
other simply-built boats with strong sheer and with better sailing
characteristics than a true dory. After all, you could build such a
boat and call it a "modified" or "semi-" dory. Hardly anyone would
know the difference, anyway ;o)
porky
sheer and the *apparent* simplicity of construction (anyone thinking
that dories are simple to build should try to sort out the angles on
a tombstone transom). Bolger has answered the construction question
with numerous sharpie designs. Strong sheer and simply construction
can be found in many boats that are most decidedly not dories. George
Buehler's V-bottomed chine boats come immediately to mind, as does
Bolger's own _Burgandy_ (a modified sharpie inspired by
L.F.Herreshoff's _Rozinante_ design). Most of the recreational
vessels we call dories, including Bolger's Light Dory, are only
dories in general outline. Even the Swampscot dories have lost their
essential "dory nature". I doubt they could easily nest on the deck
of a Glouchester schooner, and they could certainly not carry a ton
of dead cod any distance in a seaway.
Anyone enamored of the idea of a sailing dory should look to the many
other simply-built boats with strong sheer and with better sailing
characteristics than a true dory. After all, you could build such a
boat and call it a "modified" or "semi-" dory. Hardly anyone would
know the difference, anyway ;o)
porky
--- In bolger@y..., pateson@c... wrote:
> You sound like a Dam Cominist! (-;
>
> Just waiting to see what, my frind, Mr. Step has
> to say about that "Greed Rant"
>
> Well said by both of you.
> A dory was originaly a work boat,
> and was (and is)a wonderful design.
> With the accidental "Beautiful Lines"
> Perfectly suited for it's use.
> Just a couple of steps up the evolutionary chain
> from the plank canoe.
> I guess the question is, When does a change in the
> very design that makes a "Dory" a "Dory" make it something
> else?
> They "Can" be modified into other useful boats, rowing,
> power or sail, but are they then still a "Dory"?
>
> And, What the heck is a "Semi-Dory"?
> As in "Semi-planing, Semi-dory". I get confused
> at that point.
>
> Pat Patteson
> Molalla, Oregon
You sound like a Dam Cominist! (-;
Just waiting to see what, my frind, Mr. Step has
to say about that "Greed Rant"
Well said by both of you.
A dory was originaly a work boat,
and was (and is)a wonderful design.
With the accidental "Beautiful Lines"
Perfectly suited for it's use.
Just a couple of steps up the evolutionary chain
from the plank canoe.
I guess the question is, When does a change in the
very design that makes a "Dory" a "Dory" make it something
else?
They "Can" be modified into other useful boats, rowing,
power or sail, but are they then still a "Dory"?
And, What the heck is a "Semi-Dory"?
As in "Semi-planing, Semi-dory". I get confused
at that point.
Pat Patteson
Molalla, Oregon
Just waiting to see what, my frind, Mr. Step has
to say about that "Greed Rant"
Well said by both of you.
A dory was originaly a work boat,
and was (and is)a wonderful design.
With the accidental "Beautiful Lines"
Perfectly suited for it's use.
Just a couple of steps up the evolutionary chain
from the plank canoe.
I guess the question is, When does a change in the
very design that makes a "Dory" a "Dory" make it something
else?
They "Can" be modified into other useful boats, rowing,
power or sail, but are they then still a "Dory"?
And, What the heck is a "Semi-Dory"?
As in "Semi-planing, Semi-dory". I get confused
at that point.
Pat Patteson
Molalla, Oregon
Chris Crandall wrote:
presence made the use of tubs of fishing line with baited hooks every few feet for the line's length
a useful way to harvest the sea's bounty. That, basically, was the kind of fishing done from dories
out on the banks. Handlining it was called and its gone. Commercial fishermen today may have one dory
on board as a traditional style lifeboat, racked up on top of the wheelhouse or just aft of it. Of
course, with much grumbling about the cost, they will also have a real inflatable life raft.
Modified far enough they can become fair sailboats. Modified far enough they can become useful power
boats, I once owned a power dory with a Ford model A engine. And modified far enough they become
something else entirely.
PCB has shown us how neat that something else can be.
Jim
> On Mon, 1 Oct 2001StepHydro@...wrote:In our greed for more and more fish, we have all but eliminated the great shoals of fish whose
> > As for the dory, (I may be stretching a bit here, so don't lambaste me
> > for it :-) the only thing it is really good for is carrying heavy
> > loads while retaining some degree of rowability and seaworthiness.
>
> They are REALLY good at being stacked on the deck of the mother schooner.
> That's the primary dictate of shape and size for the Grand Banks Dory, the
> mother of all the current dories.
> And with all that flare, the more fish you pile into them, the better.
presence made the use of tubs of fishing line with baited hooks every few feet for the line's length
a useful way to harvest the sea's bounty. That, basically, was the kind of fishing done from dories
out on the banks. Handlining it was called and its gone. Commercial fishermen today may have one dory
on board as a traditional style lifeboat, racked up on top of the wheelhouse or just aft of it. Of
course, with much grumbling about the cost, they will also have a real inflatable life raft.
Modified far enough they can become fair sailboats. Modified far enough they can become useful power
boats, I once owned a power dory with a Ford model A engine. And modified far enough they become
something else entirely.
PCB has shown us how neat that something else can be.
Jim
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
On Mon, 1 Oct 2001StepHydro@...wrote:
That's the primary dictate of shape and size for the Grand Banks Dory, the
mother of all the current dories.
> As for the dory, (I may be stretching a bit here, so don't lambaste meThey are REALLY good at being stacked on the deck of the mother schooner.
> for it :-) the only thing it is really good for is carrying heavy
> loads while retaining some degree of rowability and seaworthiness.
That's the primary dictate of shape and size for the Grand Banks Dory, the
mother of all the current dories.
Dennis M. sez: >>The question is whether these work boats can be
transformed to function as pleasure craft primarily. The sharpie
designs, which I also find beautiful and attractive, have been
successfully converted. Why not a Dory?>>
Dennis,
I can't quite understand the above. Sharpies needed no conversion, they were
already sailboats. If you mean converted to "yachts", then it is good to
remember that all that is necessary is to make them less burdensome, they
still retain their great sailing abilities.
As for the dory, (I may be stretching a bit here, so don't lambaste me for it
:-) the only thing it is really good for is carrying heavy loads while
retaining some degree of rowability and seaworthiness. No other design has
ever excelled it in those respects. It's other attraction is it's attraction
:-)... It is one of the most beautiful marine creations of all time, when
done well. If it weren't for that fact, no one would ever build one. It is
really a miserable rowboat as well as being a nearly-impossible sailboat. It
is difficult to get in and out of, it is easily blown off course when lightly
loaded, any wind, any course.
If you are wanting a rowboat, you could hardly do worse with any other type
*of rowboat*, and if you are wanting a sailboat, you certainly couldn't do
worse.
All this said, there is no talking reason with a man who wants a sailing dory
:-)... so, make sure that you get one with a sail rig that can later be
adapted to a different (and *real*) sailboat. At least that portion of your
money won't have been wasted, and you'll have had your fun for a while.
Cheers/Don Carron
somewhat tongue-in-cheek
transformed to function as pleasure craft primarily. The sharpie
designs, which I also find beautiful and attractive, have been
successfully converted. Why not a Dory?>>
Dennis,
I can't quite understand the above. Sharpies needed no conversion, they were
already sailboats. If you mean converted to "yachts", then it is good to
remember that all that is necessary is to make them less burdensome, they
still retain their great sailing abilities.
As for the dory, (I may be stretching a bit here, so don't lambaste me for it
:-) the only thing it is really good for is carrying heavy loads while
retaining some degree of rowability and seaworthiness. No other design has
ever excelled it in those respects. It's other attraction is it's attraction
:-)... It is one of the most beautiful marine creations of all time, when
done well. If it weren't for that fact, no one would ever build one. It is
really a miserable rowboat as well as being a nearly-impossible sailboat. It
is difficult to get in and out of, it is easily blown off course when lightly
loaded, any wind, any course.
If you are wanting a rowboat, you could hardly do worse with any other type
*of rowboat*, and if you are wanting a sailboat, you certainly couldn't do
worse.
All this said, there is no talking reason with a man who wants a sailing dory
:-)... so, make sure that you get one with a sail rig that can later be
adapted to a different (and *real*) sailboat. At least that portion of your
money won't have been wasted, and you'll have had your fun for a while.
Cheers/Don Carron
somewhat tongue-in-cheek