Re: truly portable boat

Why not an inflatable kayak? Small enough for an overhead, yet one
can do amazing cruising, see Audrey Sutherland's books or "The
Inflatable Kayak Handbook"

--- In bolger@y..., "sam betty" <user15587@q...> wrote:
> Piccup Pram project is done. Pictures to come.
>
> Now, on to the next project.
>
> I found myself in several places this summer where I really wanted
to go
> boating. A modest sailing/rowing skiff would have served just fine.
> But alas, there were no boat rental establishments nearby. It got
me
> thinking that it would be nice to be able to bring your boat with
you no
> matter where you went. Of course, this would mean that you would
have
> to be able to put your boat (well, the pieces of your boat) in
ordinary
> suitcases or travel bags you might take aboard a plane, in the same
way
> that owners of folding kayaks travel with their boats. Like
kayakers,
> you would want to be able to assemble and disassemble the boat in a
> reasonable period of time.
>
> After searching around on some airline websites, I found
information on
> the size and weight limits for luggage. For flights originating in
or
> traveling to the US, passengers may bring three pieces of luggage.
The
> largest piece must have external dimensions which added together
reach
> no more than 65 inches, and must weigh no more than 70 pounds. The
next
> largest piece must have external dimensions of no more than 55
inches.
> It too may weigh 70 pounds. Third piece of luggage must be no
larger
> than carry-on dimensions.
>
> After thinking about these dimensions for a while, I asked myself a
> question. Could I put all of the pieces for a Bolger Teal in the
> largest piece of luggage? Suppose the largest bag was 20 inches
tall,
> 30 inches long and 15 inches wide. Consider the side plank of a
> Teal. Its 16 inches in height and say 150 inches in length. Sawn
in to
> five planks of 30 inches length and stacked on top of one another
the
> side plank would require no more than 1 and a quarter inches in
width
> for transport. But I'll need four butt blocks to connect the
pieces of
> the side plank to one another when assembled. Lets say they will
be 3
> quarters of an inch thick. Using these assumed dimensions I
calculate
> that pieces for both sides of a Teal can be stacked together so
that
> they are 30 inches long, 16 inches tall, and 3 and a quarter inches
in
> width. All the pieces for the bottom of the Teal, which has less
> surface area than the sides, should go into a stack of wood roughly
the
> same as that for the sides. The volume of the sides and bottom
together
> take up no more than roughly 40% of the volume of the largest piece
of
> luggage. The remaining space can be allocated to chines, gunwhales,
> stems, crosspieces, frames, etc. Yeah, I think it will all fit.
>
> But how long will it take me to put it together?
>
> I frankly don't know. I understand that even novice assemblers of
> folding kayaks can put their boats together in an hour. I'm
assuming
> that all of the pieces will be screwed or bolted together, the seams
> filled with caulk, and then covered with cloth tape polyester
resin. A
> decade or so ago at a number of festivals Sikaflex sponsored events
in
> quick and dirty boat building in which teams of contestants would
build
> and sail a small Teal-like boat. If I remember correctly, seems to
me
> the really fast builders could get on the water in an hour or two,
> starting from scratch. Has anybody ever participated in one of
these
> events? Some economies in construction time can be had if one is
> willing to use a ski-bag as a second piece of luggage and transport
all
> of the long, skinny pieces in it. This would cut down on bolting
> scarfed gunwhale and chine pieces together, not to mention spars and
> oars. I would be willing to accept an assembly time of up to three
> hours, partcularly if I was to be in the same location for a week or
> so. But for a weekend, I don't know.
>
> And then there is this to think about: If you can put a Teal into a
> suitcase, then you can probably put a Bolger/Carnell $200 sailboat
into
> two or three suitcases, and take it to the canals of France for a
> rowing sailing holiday, or the islands of Denmark for beach
cruising, or
> to the upper Thames, or. . . ..
>
> Please help. I need feedback and comments.
>
> Sam Betty

Thanks to a number of you who have responded to this thread. I've been
away from the computer for several days, so I didn't respond as quickly
as I might. Thanks for the citations to various sites. Neat boats.

I 've been thinking about a number of the issues you have raised. Here
are some responses.

Weight: A portable boat built of plywood panels is going to weigh more
than a folding kayak, but many such boats are still within a reasonable
range. Some of the boats covered at the sites you listed are well under
70 lbs. Smaller boats based on two or three sheets of plywood should be
within the range. Larger boats requiring three to five plywood sheets
would definitely require two pieces of luggage for transport. I f
weight becomes a problem, here are some ways to reduce it. One could
cut out sections from the panels and cover the cutout with kevlar ribbon
and heat shrink dacron a la Platt Monfort. I wouldn't treat a bottom
panel this way, but a side panel might be reduced in weight by as much
as 50%. Alternatively, one might rout out by one eighth of an inch a
significant part of a panel, leaving the edges and all areas where the
panel will be joined untouched, and still retain some of the panels
strength and stability. Sure would find the internal voids! This is
going to require some experimentation in the garage.

Joining panels. Still a bit stuck on this part of the project. My
initial thought was to simply join panels to one another with butt
plates, screwing panels to the plates to create mechanical attachment.
It was always my intent to be able to dis-assemble the boat for return
home, so glue is a no-no. I was then going to put a bead of caulk along
any seams created by this procedure, and then cover the seams with glass
tape and polyester resin. I have partially tested this idea. If you
embed tape in polyester resin, it sticks pretty well, but you can peal
it off like a band-aid by seizing an edge with pliers and pulling hard.
You can also do this with epoxy, but it is really hard. My concern with
this approach is that I don't know how many screws will be required to
provided sufficient mechanical advantage to really secure the panels to
the butt plates. Ten per each join? Twelve, Sixteen, Twenty? This
approach implies that during assembly one would have to drive somewhere
between three to four hundred screws into pre-drilled holes to assemble
a small skiff. At five screws a minute, that will mean at least an hour
of driving screws! Discouraging! Do I really need the tape? Can I use
something other than glass tape? How about dacron, or ripstop nylon?
How about just contact cement for the tapes? Lots and lots of
questions. One thought is to glue and screw 1" by 1"s to the joining
ends of each panel, drill two or three bolt holes through each 1" by 1"
and join panels by bolting them together. But then panels would not lie
next to one another when packed. Ok, so stick your clothes in the three
quarter inch space between panels. That will at least keep you shirts
pressed!

Any other ideas?

Sam Betty

> That's what worries me. It looks great, but is that
> all there is?

Build a 1:12 model of the Sneakeasy to look at, build the MJ to sail,
perhaps?

> Sneakeasy sure is eyecandy though.

You sure got that right.
I look at the pictures and drool, but reality
always rears its ugly head when I realize that I have nowhere to build,
store, launch, or operate a boat that size and style.

Bill,
The video that Mike refers to is about the Jochems(JWD) schooner.It
is available from PCB & Friends Inc........at least as far as I know.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan

--- In bolger@y..., "Bill Paxton" <bill@p...> wrote:
> Video? What's the video called, and how can I get a copy?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Bill
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., mkstocks@b... wrote:
> > I am 5'6" and a single guy so there is plenty of room for me.
This
> > boat is easy to trailer.
> >
> > You might consider the Jochems Schooner as well - especially if
you
> > are tall. The video is very helpful....
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > --- In bolger@y..., "Bill Paxton" <bill@p...> wrote:
> > > Mike,
> > > I've admired your boat for some time now, and think that the
> > version
> > > you built might be the ideal boat for coastal cruising on the
> Great
> > > Lakes. For that reason, it will probably be the next boat I
> build.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > Bill Paxton
> > > Apple Valley, MN

Video? What's the video called, and how can I get a copy?

Thanks!

Bill

--- In bolger@y..., mkstocks@b... wrote:
> I am 5'6" and a single guy so there is plenty of room for me. This
> boat is easy to trailer.
>
> You might consider the Jochems Schooner as well - especially if you
> are tall. The video is very helpful....
>
> Good luck!
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "Bill Paxton" <bill@p...> wrote:
> > Mike,
> > I've admired your boat for some time now, and think that the
> version
> > you built might be the ideal boat for coastal cruising on the
Great
> > Lakes. For that reason, it will probably be the next boat I
build.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Bill Paxton
> > Apple Valley, MN

I am 5'6" and a single guy so there is plenty of room for me. This
boat is easy to trailer.

You might consider the Jochems Schooner as well - especially if you
are tall. The video is very helpful....

Good luck!

Mike

--- In bolger@y..., "Bill Paxton" <bill@p...> wrote:
> Mike,
> I've admired your boat for some time now, and think that the
version
> you built might be the ideal boat for coastal cruising on the Great
> Lakes. For that reason, it will probably be the next boat I build.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Bill Paxton
> Apple Valley, MN

Mike,
I've admired your boat for some time now, and think that the version
you built might be the ideal boat for coastal cruising on the Great
Lakes. For that reason, it will probably be the next boat I build.

Any thoughts?

Bill Paxton
Apple Valley, MN

--- In bolger@y..., mkstocks@b... wrote:
> I like to motor and to sail - so I built the Martha Jane with the
> house on it...
>
>http://mkstocks.tripod.com/boats/martha_jane/
>
> I am submitting an article to Bob Hicks aka "messing about in
BOATS"
> which describes a recent motor and a recent sailing cruise...
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., thedemings@n... wrote:
> > I guess the attraction to the sneakeasy is its looks..26 feet
long
> > and only 4 feet wide! You have to love having people ask about
your
> > boat to own something like it. I do. In fact I relish in it. Love
> it
> > when people ask about how I did it (and the ocasional compliment
> > doesn't hurt much either).
> > Want to sell the snekeasy plans? I've been wanting to build her
for
> a
> > long time now.
> > Rich
> >
> > > Reviewing the web, it would seem that a lot more
> > > people enjoy building Sneakeasy, that using her. They
> > > all seem for sale. Obviously the web might not be
> > > representative. But realy, the nock against
> > > motorbaots is that they are boring. Sneakeasy isn't
> > > fast, can't be camped in (well at least not as
> > > designed), can't be manouvered at speed. Isn't ideal
> > > for fishing or towing. What's the point? If I lived
> > > in a palce with a canal sytem joining houses, or
> > > something it might be nice for socializing. For those
> > > of you who have built them, what do you use them for,
> > > and are you satisfied?

I like to motor and to sail - so I built the Martha Jane with the
house on it...

http://mkstocks.tripod.com/boats/martha_jane/

I am submitting an article to Bob Hicks aka "messing about in BOATS"
which describes a recent motor and a recent sailing cruise...

Mike

--- In bolger@y..., thedemings@n... wrote:
> I guess the attraction to the sneakeasy is its looks..26 feet long
> and only 4 feet wide! You have to love having people ask about your
> boat to own something like it. I do. In fact I relish in it. Love
it
> when people ask about how I did it (and the ocasional compliment
> doesn't hurt much either).
> Want to sell the snekeasy plans? I've been wanting to build her for
a
> long time now.
> Rich
>
> > Reviewing the web, it would seem that a lot more
> > people enjoy building Sneakeasy, that using her. They
> > all seem for sale. Obviously the web might not be
> > representative. But realy, the nock against
> > motorbaots is that they are boring. Sneakeasy isn't
> > fast, can't be camped in (well at least not as
> > designed), can't be manouvered at speed. Isn't ideal
> > for fishing or towing. What's the point? If I lived
> > in a palce with a canal sytem joining houses, or
> > something it might be nice for socializing. For those
> > of you who have built them, what do you use them for,
> > and are you satisfied?

That's what worries me. It looks great, but is that
all there is?

Actually I goofed. The plans I own are for Tenessee.
I can't see myself building that large a motorboat. I
already have an overnighting trimaran. Sneakeasy sure
is eyecandy though.

Thanks for the suggestion

TD
---thedemings@...wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
I guess the attraction to the sneakeasy is its
looks..26 feet long 
and only 4 feet wide! You have to love having people
ask about your 
boat to own something like it. I do. In fact I relish
in it. Love it 
when people ask about how I did it (and the ocasional
compliment 
doesn't hurt much either). 
Want to sell the snekeasy plans? I've been wanting to
build her for a 
long time now. 
Rich

> Reviewing the web, it would seem that a lot

more

> people enjoy building Sneakeasy, that using her.

They

> all seem for sale. Obviously the web might

not be

> representative. But realy, the nock

against

> motorbaots is that they are boring.

Sneakeasy isn't

> fast, can't be camped in (well at least not

as

> designed), can't be manouvered at speed.

Isn't ideal

> for fishing or towing. What's the

point? If I lived

> in a palce with a canal sytem joining houses,

or

> something it might be nice for socializing.

For those

> of you who have built them, what do you use them

for,

> and are you satisfied?

</tt>

 



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snip all you like 
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As I mentioned they were on websites of Sneakeasy
builders. You can follow the links from Instantboats.
com.
---dave1776us@...wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
In the original message Tom wrote, regarding
Sneakeasy, "They all seem 
for sale." 
 
The question: Where does one find out about the
ones that are for 
sale? Nothing seems to have been posted in the
Bolger4sale group 
since Sept. 10th. There are only a few posts
there each month. Is 
there another source for "for sale"
info? 
 
Regards, dave 
 
 
 
</tt>

 



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<tt>
Bolger rules!!! 
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 

 
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</body></html>

_______________________________________________________
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Get your free @... address athttp://mail.yahoo.ca

In the original message Tom wrote, regarding Sneakeasy, "They all seem
for sale."

The question: Where does one find out about the ones that are for
sale? Nothing seems to have been posted in the Bolger4sale group
since Sept. 10th. There are only a few posts there each month. Is
there another source for "for sale" info?

Regards, dave

I guess the attraction to the sneakeasy is its looks..26 feet long
and only 4 feet wide! You have to love having people ask about your
boat to own something like it. I do. In fact I relish in it. Love it
when people ask about how I did it (and the ocasional compliment
doesn't hurt much either).
Want to sell the snekeasy plans? I've been wanting to build her for a
long time now.
Rich

> Reviewing the web, it would seem that a lot more
> people enjoy building Sneakeasy, that using her. They
> all seem for sale. Obviously the web might not be
> representative. But realy, the nock against
> motorbaots is that they are boring. Sneakeasy isn't
> fast, can't be camped in (well at least not as
> designed), can't be manouvered at speed. Isn't ideal
> for fishing or towing. What's the point? If I lived
> in a palce with a canal sytem joining houses, or
> something it might be nice for socializing. For those
> of you who have built them, what do you use them for,
> and are you satisfied?

Here is the Micro Folding Dinghy site. Very small boat, but gives you
an idea of the construction of the Sandwich Tern, the Seahopper
Kontender, Porta-Boat etc. Although the Porta-Boat does not use the
interlocking fingers, since it is solid polyethylene, thinned down to
a hinge in place of fabric hinges.

--- In bolger@y..., kayaker37@h... wrote:
> The March/April 1995 issue of WoodenBoat contains an article
> called "Build the Sandwich Tern". This is a small home built
version
> of a Seahopper. There is also another site with something similiar.
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> > There was something of this sort in a recent issue of
> > WoodenBoat. Last few years anyway. I think it
> > provided plans and building hints. It forden like the
> > grasshopper.

I have plans for both of these: I won the Martha Jane
plans from Comon Sense when they had their magazine.

I was wondering which to build (first?) and two quite
unrelated questions come up.

Reviewing the web, it would seem that a lot more
people enjoy building Sneakeasy, that using her. They
all seem for sale. Obviously the web might not be
representative. But realy, the nock against
motorbaots is that they are boring. Sneakeasy isn't
fast, can't be camped in (well at least not as
designed), can't be manouvered at speed. Isn't ideal
for fishing or towing. What's the point? If I lived
in a palce with a canal sytem joining houses, or
something it might be nice for socializing. For those
of you who have built them, what do you use them for,
and are you satisfied?

On Martha Jane, there is a revision to the original
plan. the original had the conservative low sides,
which are traditionaly regarded as being good for
sailing and stability. With the new Bolger
self-righting paradigm all that changed. Is that the
point of this revision? If not what is. "Should" one
build the new version, or is it just an option for
people who want a high glass cabin?

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The March/April 1995 issue of WoodenBoat contains an article
called "Build the Sandwich Tern". This is a small home built version
of a Seahopper. There is also another site with something similiar.

--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> There was something of this sort in a recent issue of
> WoodenBoat. Last few years anyway. I think it
> provided plans and building hints. It forden like the
> grasshopper.

There was something of this sort in a recent issue of
WoodenBoat. Last few years anyway. I think it
provided plans and building hints. It forden like the
grasshopper.

---kayaker37@...wrote:

<

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After rereading your posts a few times I think that the Seahopper
Kontender would be a good basis for your design. You could make up
the portable pieces at home, and buy and cutout the plywood when you
get there. The chines are glued with sikaflex and rubberized tape, so
no need to fiberglass. This is more skiff like than the German
folding boats (which use the same technology as folding kayaks). The
Kontender is 10 feet long and 4 feet 8 inches wide. It is not quite
flat bottom, but probably closer to what you want. It was the last
link I posted.

Pictures show two people and a small dog somewhere on the site!

http://www.seahopper.co.uk/kontender.htm#logo

and when they used to make kits

http://www.shorebase.co.uk/boating/sailing/hoppy/hoppy.asp

There are also a couple of plans similiar to this, I have the links
somewhere.

These boats use matching curvature in the sides and bottom, which
Bolger has used in some of his boats (like Micro). But since you have
no need to fold lengthwise (if cutting out on arrival), it really
doesn't matter.

To all - Apologies for yet another non-Bolger post.

Sam - Great thread. I hope you don't mind if I post a link on
the 'boat designer' group.

One other thought I had was that you are going to be hit by the
weight problem with a larger boat unless there are a number of people
travelling and you can divide up the boat. If the link below works
please scroll down the EXE dory and then to the next catamaran. If a
suitable platform could be designed then a cheap tent would do for a
cabin.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/SharpieDory.htm

--- In bolger@y..., "sam betty" <user15587@q...> wrote:
> Yes, I do want to change the paradigm. I'm not sure that what I'll
come up with is going to be less
> complex than folding kayaks, but it will be cheaper. Furthermore,
I hope it will provide a different
> kind of platform for small boat cruising than kayaks do. I
envision using it to do dinghy cruising
> of the sort done by small boat owners in England, where the cruiser
and his or her companion expect
> to cook and sleep on their boat rather than camp on the shore. It
should be possible to use the boat
> as the main means of transport for a cruising vacation on sheltered
waters, to sleep on board for one
> or two of every three nights, and to cook simple meals aboard. A
relatively simple flat bottom
> rowing and sailing skiff should suffice.
>
> lukecurran@h... wrote:

Hi Sam,

The specific links I gave are not folding kayaks, but rather folding
boats (although the majority of them on the main page are). The MTW -
Delphin D140 is 1.4 meters wide, and 4 meters long, enough to carry
four, and with cabin sleep two (not sure about the dog though). This
may not be ideal for you, but is certainly not a folding kayak.

These Klepper Master Sailboat I have is set up for rowing, as we have
put the four of us in it and done this(with two rowing awkwardly),
although only in a calm lake. Only two can effectively sail though.
Folding boats like this are well suited for rowing, certainly better
than inflatables.

I can't imagine getting much bigger than this, and pack it up for air
travel though. Although I'm always interested in any kind of folding
boats. Please keep us informed of your plans. There are many ways of
making folding boats.

Paul

--- In bolger@y..., "sam betty" <user15587@q...> wrote:
> Paul:
>
> I share your respect and enthusiasm for folding kayaks, but I'm up
to something different with this
> project. Kayaks are both more and less than I want. They are way
more seaworthy than the open skiff
> I have in mind. Certainly faster as well. They are less in that
they don't have as much sprawl room
> as I want. I want room for four adults and a big dog. I want to
be able to row standing, Maine
> style, in calm water. I want to unbolt the main thwart, take it
out, and blow up the double air
> mattress and sleep next to my wife. Its going to require a
different approach.

Paul:

I share your respect and enthusiasm for folding kayaks, but I'm up to something different with this
project. Kayaks are both more and less than I want. They are way more seaworthy than the open skiff
I have in mind. Certainly faster as well. They are less in that they don't have as much sprawl room
as I want. I want room for four adults and a big dog. I want to be able to row standing, Maine
style, in calm water. I want to unbolt the main thwart, take it out, and blow up the double air
mattress and sleep next to my wife. Its going to require a different approach.

Thanks for the tip on the website. Couldn't get it to run, but I will keep trying. The other sites
I have seen on amateur folding kayaks are really interesting. The ingenuity of some of these designs
is amazing.

Thanks,

Sam Betty

Paul Lefebvre wrote:

> I have had a 1966 Klepper double folding kayak since 1994, and a Nautiraid
> double since 1996; they are remarkable boats. I made a polytarp sloop-rig
> sail for the Klepper and quickly became a believer, it was so versatile.
> When I saw it starting to wear out from age and all the use I was giving it
> (it being my only boat, and living at the mouth of the Amazon), I upgraded
> to the 'raid and also got my hands on the original Klepper gunter lug rig
> and leeboards, which I adapted to the 'raid. It sails pretty respectably,
> tacks thru 90 or 100 degrees if you keep an eye on the rope forestay
> (running backstays get it even closer to the wind if you are on the same
> tack long enough to bother), have even gotten it to plane in the right
> conditions, and with the inflatable sponsons is stable enough to be relaxing
> to sail (never been knocked down yet!). Both boats have been flown all over
> north and south america without ever paying excess baggage fees (including
> camping gear for 2, life jackets, etc....), and been taken on multi-day
> trips where we flew into a remote airport, took a taxi to the water, set up
> and sailed away, landed someplace else and reversed the process. The 'raid
> has even run class III whitewater on the Snake and was great fun. Klepper
> takes 15 minutes, 'raid 10 to set up; sails take another 10; for 2 years of
> city living in a 16th floor apt. in Brazil, tiny car, no roofrack, we went
> boating nearly every Sunday. While they are frightfully expensive new, used
> ones can be picked up here and there for a reasonable price if you keep your
> eye out, and they last forever if cared for (my '66 Klepper's skin is a bit
> tattered, but still watertight enough to take friends out 4 or 5 times
> year). A very good investment for the frequent flier boatnick if you can
> afford it. If not, there are some good websites of home built folding
> kayaks, some are very impressive. My favorite is
>http://elwood.gpi.uni-kiel.de/Kayak/if you can get it to work, and he has
> some links to other good sites (his brother has a slick space-age, all
> aluminum frame, folding baidarka!). I think it would be hard to build a boat
> of this capability completely of plywood, without the plywood becoming
> prohibitively heavy for air travel; skin boats need minimal structure and
> the new synthetic skins are very tough. Seems to me like the logical way to
> go.
>
> Paul L.
>
> > From: thomas dalzell [mailto:proaconstrictor@...]
> >
> > A folding sailing kayak would be cool.
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Yes, I do want to change the paradigm. I'm not sure that what I'll come up with is going to be less
complex than folding kayaks, but it will be cheaper. Furthermore, I hope it will provide a different
kind of platform for small boat cruising than kayaks do. I envision using it to do dinghy cruising
of the sort done by small boat owners in England, where the cruiser and his or her companion expect
to cook and sleep on their boat rather than camp on the shore. It should be possible to use the boat
as the main means of transport for a cruising vacation on sheltered waters, to sleep on board for one
or two of every three nights, and to cook simple meals aboard. A relatively simple flat bottom
rowing and sailing skiff should suffice.

lukecurran@...wrote:

> Yes, please! Somebody come up with a cheap easy 'pirogue' type boat.
>
> To give you some ideas here's a link to a non-bolger list of ideas on
> home-built folding kayaks. They are mostly fairly complex boats and
> it would be nice if somebody can change the paradigm;
>
>http://mind.dreamhost.com/kayak/build.html
>
> --- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> > A folding sailing kayak would be cool. The kleppers
> > have been used to to cross the atlantic, and the whole
> > deal including paddles but no the sail rig can be
> > fitted into two duffles. Just the other day I saw a
> > plan for a 10' on the web. It was designed for a kid
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

thomas dalzell wrote:

> A folding sailing kayak would be cool. The kleppers
> have been used to to cross the atlantic, and the whole
> deal including paddles but no the sail rig can be
> fitted into two duffles. Just the other day I saw a
> plan for a 10' on the web. It was designed for a kid,
> but the guy had come up with a lot of interesting
> techniques for home manufacture.
> ---roger99a@...wrote:
>

Kleppers are cool. But the only ones you can get for cheap are old ones with worked over coverings that need to be replaced. When you look into replacing the fabric, suddenly they are not cheap anymore. Furthermore, I want sprawl room, lie down and nap room. I'm thinking I would like a four foot beam. But if any one reading this message spots an ad for an old Klepper,
please let me know.

roger99a@...wrote:

> Wouldn't it be better to cut out the bulkheads and other small parts
> to carry, then, using pre-made paper templates, cut the longer pieces
> from locally purchased plywood?
>
> Roger S
>

I Think this is the way to go if you want a boat that is "bigger" than a couple of pieces of
luggage. Bevelling the stems and transoms and the frames is best done on your table saw at home.
But large panels of plywood for sides and bottom (and deck?) can probably be cut out quickly even
with a hand saw at a campgound at your destination provided their dimensions are traced on stock from
templates. Assembly might take a day or two, but if your not finicky about the finish or exact fits,
I think the idea would work. One problem: What would you do with the boat when your done? Maybe
give it away. Or you could disassemble it and leave the large parts behind, taking the smaller more
difficult to make parts back home with you for another voyage. Intriguing. A Zephyr maybe?

The Germans have developed folding boats into an art from. I have a
Klepper double folding kayak, and a Klepper Master (12 foot) folding
sailboat. When I bought them I was able to stuff both into my '93
Mazda MX6, including the 16 foot mast (which breaks in two), thanks
to the fold down rear seat.

The Master was designed to take a pretty hefty motor, and the
brochures actually showed it towing a skier! Not recommended for
longevity though.

Most of these boats were designed for travel on railroad, although
dimensionally they fit on aircraft as well.

The following sites are in German but are graphically intensive, and
must be seen to be believed!

My favorite is the Delphin D140 sailboat with a cabin! Check it out
at

http://home.t-online.de/home/derpoly/segelfaltboot.html#oben

O.K. tie for second is the Delphin-D110 Typ 2 motorboat. Check it out
at
http://home.t-online.de/home/derpoly/delphin_d110.html#oben

Or check out the Master towing a waterskier at
http://home.t-online.de/home/derpoly/klepper-master.html#oben

For the index to a large number of folding boats check out
http://home.t-online.de/home/derpoly/derpoly.html#oben

Of course there is the way cool folding Seahopper, but it folds in
such a way that when folded it is the full length of the boat.

http://www.seahopper.co.uk/index.htm#logo

The Klepper double only takes about 20 minutes to assemble. The
Master takes me about two hours, including sail. I wish it were
bigger, it is in immaculate condition. Wish it were faster to
assemble though, although it is quicker with a helper.

Good luck, this is one of my favorite topics :)

Paul

> I frankly don't know. I understand that even novice assemblers of
> folding kayaks can put their boats together in an hour. I'm

assuming

> that all of the pieces will be screwed or bolted together, the seams
> filled with caulk, and then covered with cloth tape polyester

resin. A

> decade or so ago at a number of festivals Sikaflex sponsored events

> quick and dirty boat building in which teams of contestants would

build

> and sail a small Teal-like boat. If I remember correctly, seems to

> the really fast builders could get on the water in an hour or two,
> starting from scratch. Has anybody ever participated in one of

these

> events? Some economies in construction time can be had if one is
> willing to use a ski-bag as a second piece of luggage and transport

all

> of the long, skinny pieces in it. This would cut down on bolting
> scarfed gunwhale and chine pieces together, not to mention spars and
> oars. I would be willing to accept an assembly time of up to three
> hours, partcularly if I was to be in the same location for a week or
> so. But for a weekend, I don't know.
>
> And then there is this to think about: If you can put a Teal into a
> suitcase, then you can probably put a Bolger/Carnell $200 sailboat

into

> two or three suitcases, and take it to the canals of France for a
> rowing sailing holiday, or the islands of Denmark for beach

cruising, or

> to the upper Thames, or. . . ..
>
> Please help. I need feedback and comments.
>
> Sam Betty

I have had a 1966 Klepper double folding kayak since 1994, and a Nautiraid
double since 1996; they are remarkable boats. I made a polytarp sloop-rig
sail for the Klepper and quickly became a believer, it was so versatile.
When I saw it starting to wear out from age and all the use I was giving it
(it being my only boat, and living at the mouth of the Amazon), I upgraded
to the 'raid and also got my hands on the original Klepper gunter lug rig
and leeboards, which I adapted to the 'raid. It sails pretty respectably,
tacks thru 90 or 100 degrees if you keep an eye on the rope forestay
(running backstays get it even closer to the wind if you are on the same
tack long enough to bother), have even gotten it to plane in the right
conditions, and with the inflatable sponsons is stable enough to be relaxing
to sail (never been knocked down yet!). Both boats have been flown all over
north and south america without ever paying excess baggage fees (including
camping gear for 2, life jackets, etc....), and been taken on multi-day
trips where we flew into a remote airport, took a taxi to the water, set up
and sailed away, landed someplace else and reversed the process. The 'raid
has even run class III whitewater on the Snake and was great fun. Klepper
takes 15 minutes, 'raid 10 to set up; sails take another 10; for 2 years of
city living in a 16th floor apt. in Brazil, tiny car, no roofrack, we went
boating nearly every Sunday. While they are frightfully expensive new, used
ones can be picked up here and there for a reasonable price if you keep your
eye out, and they last forever if cared for (my '66 Klepper's skin is a bit
tattered, but still watertight enough to take friends out 4 or 5 times
year). A very good investment for the frequent flier boatnick if you can
afford it. If not, there are some good websites of home built folding
kayaks, some are very impressive. My favorite is
http://elwood.gpi.uni-kiel.de/Kayak/if you can get it to work, and he has
some links to other good sites (his brother has a slick space-age, all
aluminum frame, folding baidarka!). I think it would be hard to build a boat
of this capability completely of plywood, without the plywood becoming
prohibitively heavy for air travel; skin boats need minimal structure and
the new synthetic skins are very tough. Seems to me like the logical way to
go.

Paul L.

> From: thomas dalzell [mailto:proaconstrictor@...]
>
> A folding sailing kayak would be cool.

Yes, please! Somebody come up with a cheap easy 'pirogue' type boat.

To give you some ideas here's a link to a non-bolger list of ideas on
home-built folding kayaks. They are mostly fairly complex boats and
it would be nice if somebody can change the paradigm;

http://mind.dreamhost.com/kayak/build.html

--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> A folding sailing kayak would be cool. The kleppers
> have been used to to cross the atlantic, and the whole
> deal including paddles but no the sail rig can be
> fitted into two duffles. Just the other day I saw a
> plan for a 10' on the web. It was designed for a kid

A folding sailing kayak would be cool. The kleppers
have been used to to cross the atlantic, and the whole
deal including paddles but no the sail rig can be
fitted into two duffles. Just the other day I saw a
plan for a 10' on the web. It was designed for a kid,
but the guy had come up with a lot of interesting
techniques for home manufacture.
---roger99a@...wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Wouldn't it be better to cut out the bulkheads and
other small parts 
to carry, then, using pre-made paper templates, cut
the longer pieces 
from locally purchased plywood? 
 
Roger S 
 
--- In bolger@y..., "sam betty"
<user15587@q...> wrote:

> Piccup Pram project is done. Pictures to

come.

> 
> Now, on to the next project. 
> 
> I found myself in several places this summer

where I really wanted 
to go

> boating. A modest sailing/rowing skiff

would have served just fine.

> But alas, there were no boat rental

establishments nearby. It got 
me

> thinking that it would be nice to be able to

bring your boat with 
you no

> matter where you went. Of course, this

would mean that you would 
have

> to be able to put your boat (well, the pieces of

your boat) in 
ordinary

> suitcases or travel bags you might take aboard a

plane, in the same 
way

> that owners of folding kayaks travel with their

boats. Like 
kayakers,

> you would want to be able to assemble and

disassemble the boat in a

> reasonable period of time. 
> 
> After searching around on some airline websites,

I found 
information on

> the size and weight limits for luggage. For

flights originating in 
or

> traveling to the US, passengers may bring three

pieces of luggage. 
The

> largest piece must have external dimensions which

added together 
reach

> no more than 65 inches, and must weigh no more

than 70 pounds. The 
next

> largest piece must have external dimensions of no

more than 55 
inches.

> It too may weigh 70 pounds. Third piece of

luggage must be no 
larger

> than carry-on dimensions. 
> 
> After thinking about these dimensions for a

while, I asked myself a

> question. Could I put all of the pieces for

a Bolger Teal in the

> largest piece of luggage? Suppose the

largest bag was 20 inches 
tall,

> 30 inches long and 15 inches wide. Consider

the side plank of a

> Teal. Its 16 inches in height and say 150

inches in length. Sawn 
in to

> five planks of 30 inches length and stacked on

top of one another 
the

> side plank would require no more than 1 and a

quarter inches in 
width

> for transport. But I'll need four butt

blocks to connect the 
pieces of

> the side plank to one another when

assembled. Lets say they will 
be 3

> quarters of an inch thick. Using these

assumed dimensions I 
calculate

> that pieces for both sides of a Teal can be

stacked together so 
that

> they are 30 inches long, 16 inches tall, and 3

and a quarter inches 
in

> width. All the pieces for the bottom of the

Teal, which has less

> surface area than the sides, should go into a

stack of wood roughly 
the

> same as that for the sides. The volume of

the sides and bottom 
together

> take up no more than roughly 40% of the volume of

the largest piece 
of

> luggage. The remaining space can be

allocated to chines, gunwhales,

> stems, crosspieces, frames, etc.

Yeah, I think it will all fit.

> 
> But how long will it take me to put it

together?

> 
> I frankly don't know. I understand that

even novice assemblers of

> folding kayaks can put their boats together in an

hour. I'm 
assuming

> that all of the pieces will be screwed or bolted

together, the seams

> filled with caulk, and then covered with cloth

tape polyester 
resin. A

> decade or so ago at a number of festivals

Sikaflex sponsored events 
in

> quick and dirty boat building in which teams of

contestants would 
build

> and sail a small Teal-like boat. If I

remember correctly, seems to 
me

> the really fast builders could get on the water

in an hour or two,

> starting from scratch. Has anybody ever

participated in one of 
these

> events? Some economies in construction time

can be had if one is

> willing to use a ski-bag as a second piece of

luggage and transport 
all

> of the long, skinny pieces in it. This

would cut down on bolting

> scarfed gunwhale and chine pieces together, not

to mention spars and

> oars. I would be willing to accept an

assembly time of up to three

> hours, partcularly if I was to be in the same

location for a week or

> so. But for a weekend, I don't know. 
> 
> And then there is this to think about: If

you can put a Teal into a

> suitcase, then you can probably put a

Bolger/Carnell $200 sailboat 
into

> two or three suitcases, and take it to the

canals of France for a

> rowing sailing holiday, or the islands of Denmark

for beach 
cruising, or

> to the upper Thames, or. . . .. 
> 
> Please help. I need feedback and

comments.

> 
> Sam Betty

</tt>

 



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<tt>
Bolger rules!!! 
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 

 
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
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Wouldn't it be better to cut out the bulkheads and other small parts
to carry, then, using pre-made paper templates, cut the longer pieces
from locally purchased plywood?

Roger S

--- In bolger@y..., "sam betty" <user15587@q...> wrote:
> Piccup Pram project is done. Pictures to come.
>
> Now, on to the next project.
>
> I found myself in several places this summer where I really wanted
to go
> boating. A modest sailing/rowing skiff would have served just fine.
> But alas, there were no boat rental establishments nearby. It got
me
> thinking that it would be nice to be able to bring your boat with
you no
> matter where you went. Of course, this would mean that you would
have
> to be able to put your boat (well, the pieces of your boat) in
ordinary
> suitcases or travel bags you might take aboard a plane, in the same
way
> that owners of folding kayaks travel with their boats. Like
kayakers,
> you would want to be able to assemble and disassemble the boat in a
> reasonable period of time.
>
> After searching around on some airline websites, I found
information on
> the size and weight limits for luggage. For flights originating in
or
> traveling to the US, passengers may bring three pieces of luggage.
The
> largest piece must have external dimensions which added together
reach
> no more than 65 inches, and must weigh no more than 70 pounds. The
next
> largest piece must have external dimensions of no more than 55
inches.
> It too may weigh 70 pounds. Third piece of luggage must be no
larger
> than carry-on dimensions.
>
> After thinking about these dimensions for a while, I asked myself a
> question. Could I put all of the pieces for a Bolger Teal in the
> largest piece of luggage? Suppose the largest bag was 20 inches
tall,
> 30 inches long and 15 inches wide. Consider the side plank of a
> Teal. Its 16 inches in height and say 150 inches in length. Sawn
in to
> five planks of 30 inches length and stacked on top of one another
the
> side plank would require no more than 1 and a quarter inches in
width
> for transport. But I'll need four butt blocks to connect the
pieces of
> the side plank to one another when assembled. Lets say they will
be 3
> quarters of an inch thick. Using these assumed dimensions I
calculate
> that pieces for both sides of a Teal can be stacked together so
that
> they are 30 inches long, 16 inches tall, and 3 and a quarter inches
in
> width. All the pieces for the bottom of the Teal, which has less
> surface area than the sides, should go into a stack of wood roughly
the
> same as that for the sides. The volume of the sides and bottom
together
> take up no more than roughly 40% of the volume of the largest piece
of
> luggage. The remaining space can be allocated to chines, gunwhales,
> stems, crosspieces, frames, etc. Yeah, I think it will all fit.
>
> But how long will it take me to put it together?
>
> I frankly don't know. I understand that even novice assemblers of
> folding kayaks can put their boats together in an hour. I'm
assuming
> that all of the pieces will be screwed or bolted together, the seams
> filled with caulk, and then covered with cloth tape polyester
resin. A
> decade or so ago at a number of festivals Sikaflex sponsored events
in
> quick and dirty boat building in which teams of contestants would
build
> and sail a small Teal-like boat. If I remember correctly, seems to
me
> the really fast builders could get on the water in an hour or two,
> starting from scratch. Has anybody ever participated in one of
these
> events? Some economies in construction time can be had if one is
> willing to use a ski-bag as a second piece of luggage and transport
all
> of the long, skinny pieces in it. This would cut down on bolting
> scarfed gunwhale and chine pieces together, not to mention spars and
> oars. I would be willing to accept an assembly time of up to three
> hours, partcularly if I was to be in the same location for a week or
> so. But for a weekend, I don't know.
>
> And then there is this to think about: If you can put a Teal into a
> suitcase, then you can probably put a Bolger/Carnell $200 sailboat
into
> two or three suitcases, and take it to the canals of France for a
> rowing sailing holiday, or the islands of Denmark for beach
cruising, or
> to the upper Thames, or. . . ..
>
> Please help. I need feedback and comments.
>
> Sam Betty

Piccup Pram project is done. Pictures to come.

Now, on to the next project.

I found myself in several places this summer where I really wanted to go
boating. A modest sailing/rowing skiff would have served just fine.
But alas, there were no boat rental establishments nearby. It got me
thinking that it would be nice to be able to bring your boat with you no
matter where you went. Of course, this would mean that you would have
to be able to put your boat (well, the pieces of your boat) in ordinary
suitcases or travel bags you might take aboard a plane, in the same way
that owners of folding kayaks travel with their boats. Like kayakers,
you would want to be able to assemble and disassemble the boat in a
reasonable period of time.

After searching around on some airline websites, I found information on
the size and weight limits for luggage. For flights originating in or
traveling to the US, passengers may bring three pieces of luggage. The
largest piece must have external dimensions which added together reach
no more than 65 inches, and must weigh no more than 70 pounds. The next
largest piece must have external dimensions of no more than 55 inches.
It too may weigh 70 pounds. Third piece of luggage must be no larger
than carry-on dimensions.

After thinking about these dimensions for a while, I asked myself a
question. Could I put all of the pieces for a Bolger Teal in the
largest piece of luggage? Suppose the largest bag was 20 inches tall,
30 inches long and 15 inches wide. Consider the side plank of a
Teal. Its 16 inches in height and say 150 inches in length. Sawn in to
five planks of 30 inches length and stacked on top of one another the
side plank would require no more than 1 and a quarter inches in width
for transport. But I'll need four butt blocks to connect the pieces of
the side plank to one another when assembled. Lets say they will be 3
quarters of an inch thick. Using these assumed dimensions I calculate
that pieces for both sides of a Teal can be stacked together so that
they are 30 inches long, 16 inches tall, and 3 and a quarter inches in
width. All the pieces for the bottom of the Teal, which has less
surface area than the sides, should go into a stack of wood roughly the
same as that for the sides. The volume of the sides and bottom together
take up no more than roughly 40% of the volume of the largest piece of
luggage. The remaining space can be allocated to chines, gunwhales,
stems, crosspieces, frames, etc. Yeah, I think it will all fit.

But how long will it take me to put it together?

I frankly don't know. I understand that even novice assemblers of
folding kayaks can put their boats together in an hour. I'm assuming
that all of the pieces will be screwed or bolted together, the seams
filled with caulk, and then covered with cloth tape polyester resin. A
decade or so ago at a number of festivals Sikaflex sponsored events in
quick and dirty boat building in which teams of contestants would build
and sail a small Teal-like boat. If I remember correctly, seems to me
the really fast builders could get on the water in an hour or two,
starting from scratch. Has anybody ever participated in one of these
events? Some economies in construction time can be had if one is
willing to use a ski-bag as a second piece of luggage and transport all
of the long, skinny pieces in it. This would cut down on bolting
scarfed gunwhale and chine pieces together, not to mention spars and
oars. I would be willing to accept an assembly time of up to three
hours, partcularly if I was to be in the same location for a week or
so. But for a weekend, I don't know.

And then there is this to think about: If you can put a Teal into a
suitcase, then you can probably put a Bolger/Carnell $200 sailboat into
two or three suitcases, and take it to the canals of France for a
rowing sailing holiday, or the islands of Denmark for beach cruising, or
to the upper Thames, or. . . ..

Please help. I need feedback and comments.

Sam Betty