Re: Michalak on flat bottomed boats
> I enjoy the flat bottom boats... I like the form over weight forwith
> stability, and they just look so damn sexy up on the beach.
>
> I'm looking for a flat bottom sharpie under 350lbs. 15, 16 feet
> a cuddy to sleep 2, that will stand up 2 to 4 foot chop pounding allcythia
> day long time and time again. I was looking at the af3 and the
> j. Any suggestions would be most appreciative.If you genuinely wish to cruise in a genuine "2 to
>
> Thanks,
> Todd
>
4 foot chop" you are going to need LOTS more boat than a
16 ft Sharpie.
I have a set of AF3 plans, and squeezing two people
into that cuddy won't be pretty. I think the CJ has a little
more room due to increased beam, but not much more.
And, although I like the looks of these boats a lot, I
have seen a lot of "hulls" lying on the beach that I would
consider sexier.
Max
--- In bolger@y...,
Downunder in South Australia there is a modified MICRO 15 that has a
shallow keel .. If memory serves '' PABLO BIANCO '' and LEEBOARDS
To find out more tryduckflat@...
Downunder in South Australia there is a modified MICRO 15 that has a
shallow keel .. If memory serves '' PABLO BIANCO '' and LEEBOARDS
To find out more tryduckflat@...
--- In bolger@y...,
Downunder in South Australia there is a modified MICRO 15 that has a
shallow keel .. If memory serves '' PABLO BIANCO '' and LEEBOARDS
To find out more tryduckflat@...
Downunder in South Australia there is a modified MICRO 15 that has a
shallow keel .. If memory serves '' PABLO BIANCO '' and LEEBOARDS
To find out more tryduckflat@...
Well I was drawn to these boats(skiffs& dories) thinking that they
could handle anything the skipper could handle. I hear alot of talk
about the east cost working skiffs and dories taken out in rough
conditions and keeping the crew safe. Maybe they look the same but
the building technigues are to blame (making them easy to build)? The
traditonal boats that I have seen look very beefed up with a lot of
lumber not just sheets of ply and 1x3's. But then again I doubt there
sheathed in epoxy and fiberglass.
I enjoy the flat bottom boats... I like the form over weight for
stability, and they just look so damn sexy up on the beach.
I'm looking for a flat bottom sharpie under 350lbs. 15, 16 feet with
a cuddy to sleep 2, that will stand up 2 to 4 foot chop pounding all
day long time and time again. I was looking at the af3 and the cythia
j. Any suggestions would be most appreciative.
Thanks,
Todd
could handle anything the skipper could handle. I hear alot of talk
about the east cost working skiffs and dories taken out in rough
conditions and keeping the crew safe. Maybe they look the same but
the building technigues are to blame (making them easy to build)? The
traditonal boats that I have seen look very beefed up with a lot of
lumber not just sheets of ply and 1x3's. But then again I doubt there
sheathed in epoxy and fiberglass.
I enjoy the flat bottom boats... I like the form over weight for
stability, and they just look so damn sexy up on the beach.
I'm looking for a flat bottom sharpie under 350lbs. 15, 16 feet with
a cuddy to sleep 2, that will stand up 2 to 4 foot chop pounding all
day long time and time again. I was looking at the af3 and the cythia
j. Any suggestions would be most appreciative.
Thanks,
Todd
--- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "Larry Barker" <lgbarker@i...> wrote:
> > Greetings,
> > Since many Bolger boats are flat bottomed, I thought it might be
> interesting to get this group's reaction to the latest column
> (15Oct01) from Jim Michalak
(http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/).
> To quote from his page:
>
>
> >
> Keep in mind that since a big chunk of Jim's audience is
> people with little or no sailing / general boating experience,
> it is probably prudent to promote a cautious attitude
> concerning the weather (which is not to say that even
> the most experienced sailor can't learn something.)
>
> Carlyle Lake, the lake Jim is referring to in his
> essay, does have a habit of getting nasty real quick.
> I quote from the Oct. 23rd edition of a local newspaper
> concerning an incident during a sailboat race on Sept. 9th:
> "There were about 30 boats racing when a fast-moving
> cold front passed through the area, bringing with it an
> initial gust of wind of more than 50 mph and a sustained
> wind of 30 mph for more than an hour. There was (sic) no
> ominous clouds that normally warn boaters that they need
> to get off the lake. The first gust of wind was so strong
> that 12 boats were swamped in minutes. The (club) has
> three small rescue boats. But because of the strong wind,
> large waves and boats being scattered across the lower
> part of the lake we were having trouble getting people
> rescued..." Jim told me he wrote his Oct. 15th essay
> a couple weeks ago on his laptop computer while boat-camping
> on this Lake and I bet this incident had something to do
> with it.
>
> Back in May, I saw 43 knots of Southwest wind while
> near ramp #6, and having the whole length of the lake
> to build, combined with the shallowing water up there,
> the waves were probably 4 ft or thereabouts. Someone
> got blown off a Catalina 22, but was able to swim to shore.
>
> So a little caution is justified. If an individual
> feels he has the experience, and his boat has the guts,
> to handle rougher weather, then go for it. If you drown,
> don't sue the designer who told you not too. There may
> be liability issues here as well as safety issues.
>
> As to flat-bottom boats, I don't think one can generalize
> too much as to their inherit seaworthiness; A lot of people
> feel that the flat-bottomed Micro is fairly seaworthy.
> And those big 29 ft and 37 ft "advanced sharpies" have
> crossed oceans. Rather than crossing oceans, most of Jim's
> designs are intended for the rather thin water here in
> the midwest. With few bodies of water around, Jim and
> I have even over-night cruised on a 247 acre lake. This
> is what he designs his boats for. Heavy-displacement, deep-
> keeled boats that would handle rough weather better won't
> get used because there is nowhere to use them. Even the
> 1' 9" draft of the Micro can be a problem.
>
> Max
--- In bolger@y..., cadbury@s... wrote:
Jim refers to a pond surrounded by "rich people's houses:"
That is at the exit to Breeze, Illinois.
> --- In bolger@y..., "Larry Barker" <lgbarker@i...> wrote:One more thing, and I swear I aint making this up;
> > Greetings,
> > Since many Bolger boats are flat bottomed, I thought it might be
> interesting to get this group's reaction to the latest column
> (15Oct01) from Jim Michalak (http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/).
Jim refers to a pond surrounded by "rich people's houses:"
That is at the exit to Breeze, Illinois.
--- In bolger@y..., "Larry Barker" <lgbarker@i...> wrote:
(15Oct01) from Jim Michalak (http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/).
To quote from his page:
people with little or no sailing / general boating experience,
it is probably prudent to promote a cautious attitude
concerning the weather (which is not to say that even
the most experienced sailor can't learn something.)
Carlyle Lake, the lake Jim is referring to in his
essay, does have a habit of getting nasty real quick.
I quote from the Oct. 23rd edition of a local newspaper
concerning an incident during a sailboat race on Sept. 9th:
"There were about 30 boats racing when a fast-moving
cold front passed through the area, bringing with it an
initial gust of wind of more than 50 mph and a sustained
wind of 30 mph for more than an hour. There was (sic) no
ominous clouds that normally warn boaters that they need
to get off the lake. The first gust of wind was so strong
that 12 boats were swamped in minutes. The (club) has
three small rescue boats. But because of the strong wind,
large waves and boats being scattered across the lower
part of the lake we were having trouble getting people
rescued..." Jim told me he wrote his Oct. 15th essay
a couple weeks ago on his laptop computer while boat-camping
on this Lake and I bet this incident had something to do
with it.
Back in May, I saw 43 knots of Southwest wind while
near ramp #6, and having the whole length of the lake
to build, combined with the shallowing water up there,
the waves were probably 4 ft or thereabouts. Someone
got blown off a Catalina 22, but was able to swim to shore.
So a little caution is justified. If an individual
feels he has the experience, and his boat has the guts,
to handle rougher weather, then go for it. If you drown,
don't sue the designer who told you not too. There may
be liability issues here as well as safety issues.
As to flat-bottom boats, I don't think one can generalize
too much as to their inherit seaworthiness; A lot of people
feel that the flat-bottomed Micro is fairly seaworthy.
And those big 29 ft and 37 ft "advanced sharpies" have
crossed oceans. Rather than crossing oceans, most of Jim's
designs are intended for the rather thin water here in
the midwest. With few bodies of water around, Jim and
I have even over-night cruised on a 247 acre lake. This
is what he designs his boats for. Heavy-displacement, deep-
keeled boats that would handle rough weather better won't
get used because there is nowhere to use them. Even the
1' 9" draft of the Micro can be a problem.
Max
> Greetings,interesting to get this group's reaction to the latest column
> Since many Bolger boats are flat bottomed, I thought it might be
(15Oct01) from Jim Michalak (http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/).
To quote from his page:
>Keep in mind that since a big chunk of Jim's audience is
people with little or no sailing / general boating experience,
it is probably prudent to promote a cautious attitude
concerning the weather (which is not to say that even
the most experienced sailor can't learn something.)
Carlyle Lake, the lake Jim is referring to in his
essay, does have a habit of getting nasty real quick.
I quote from the Oct. 23rd edition of a local newspaper
concerning an incident during a sailboat race on Sept. 9th:
"There were about 30 boats racing when a fast-moving
cold front passed through the area, bringing with it an
initial gust of wind of more than 50 mph and a sustained
wind of 30 mph for more than an hour. There was (sic) no
ominous clouds that normally warn boaters that they need
to get off the lake. The first gust of wind was so strong
that 12 boats were swamped in minutes. The (club) has
three small rescue boats. But because of the strong wind,
large waves and boats being scattered across the lower
part of the lake we were having trouble getting people
rescued..." Jim told me he wrote his Oct. 15th essay
a couple weeks ago on his laptop computer while boat-camping
on this Lake and I bet this incident had something to do
with it.
Back in May, I saw 43 knots of Southwest wind while
near ramp #6, and having the whole length of the lake
to build, combined with the shallowing water up there,
the waves were probably 4 ft or thereabouts. Someone
got blown off a Catalina 22, but was able to swim to shore.
So a little caution is justified. If an individual
feels he has the experience, and his boat has the guts,
to handle rougher weather, then go for it. If you drown,
don't sue the designer who told you not too. There may
be liability issues here as well as safety issues.
As to flat-bottom boats, I don't think one can generalize
too much as to their inherit seaworthiness; A lot of people
feel that the flat-bottomed Micro is fairly seaworthy.
And those big 29 ft and 37 ft "advanced sharpies" have
crossed oceans. Rather than crossing oceans, most of Jim's
designs are intended for the rather thin water here in
the midwest. With few bodies of water around, Jim and
I have even over-night cruised on a 247 acre lake. This
is what he designs his boats for. Heavy-displacement, deep-
keeled boats that would handle rough weather better won't
get used because there is nowhere to use them. Even the
1' 9" draft of the Micro can be a problem.
Max
Any vessel can be overcome by the sea, from the Queen Mary to an eight foot skiff.
In a well designed and well handled vessel it is usually the size of the sea in comparison
to the size of the boat that is the problem. Too, it can depend on whether the wind and current
are favorable or unfavorable, and on the seamanship of the sailor. Of course, when
what you would like to have is a pleasant day's sail, don't go out when it is blowing like
stink.
But if you have to get from there to here, a flat bottom boat isn't inherently less safe
than a round bottomed one, or a v-bottomed one. If you can't tack, gybe, carefully.
I've had my Black Skimmer out on Buzzard's Bay in Southern Mass. on a typical
late fall afternoon., whitecaps all over the place. She roared along on a broad reach
under main alone with one reef in. The attachment of the leeboards was a little
worrisome but not the boat herself and neither I nor my crew were unduly
concerned about safety. Would I have taken her out in a winter full gale on that coast?
Not on your life. Yachting is supposed to be fun and that wouldn't have been.
Would I have taken her out under those conditions to save life? Only if the Coast
Guard and Sea Tow had been on strike and I was the only one available.
Would I have attempted to cross Buzzards Bay that sunny fall day with all those
whitecaps in an eight foot skiff with a little outboard on the back? No, it would not
have been prudent to do so.
Particularly in these days we are being fed a steady diet of terribly fear inducing news
with anthrax and terrorist attacks. Our messing about in boats should not be
contaminated with fear.
Know your boat. Develop your own judgment. If you are new to boating start
conservatively. Take it out often, to play as well as to cruise from here to there. The
better you know her , the better you will be able to judge whether or not she will be
comfortable, or useful, in that day's weather. A flat bottomed boat heeled is, in fact,
a v-bottomed boat. Only when in the middle of coming about, when she is directly head
to wind and fully upright, will she pound on any waves. Yes that might stop her. So, as
I said before, instead of coming about, gybe, carefully. The old time sea captains used
to do that a lot. Square riggers didn't tack very well and the danger of being taken
aback while coming about was a very unpleasant prospect. It generally meant
dismasting. Modern yachts don't have that as a danger but there is the possibility of
being 'caught in irons' and having to sail backwards a few feet with the tiller hard
over before she comes around. I can't say that I think too highly of taking a boat with
a blunt bow to windward in a blow. The occasional wave would strike her full on and
that too would stop her.
So, unless you're racing, head off a little to a close reach. Most of the pounding
would go away. You would go to windward a little more slowly but that would mean a
little more time to enjoy sailing.
Please don't worry too much about flat versus round or anything else. If you are building,
flat bottomed is probably easier. If you are buying new, flat bottomed is, all other things
equal, probably cheaper.
richard@...wrote:
In a well designed and well handled vessel it is usually the size of the sea in comparison
to the size of the boat that is the problem. Too, it can depend on whether the wind and current
are favorable or unfavorable, and on the seamanship of the sailor. Of course, when
what you would like to have is a pleasant day's sail, don't go out when it is blowing like
stink.
But if you have to get from there to here, a flat bottom boat isn't inherently less safe
than a round bottomed one, or a v-bottomed one. If you can't tack, gybe, carefully.
I've had my Black Skimmer out on Buzzard's Bay in Southern Mass. on a typical
late fall afternoon., whitecaps all over the place. She roared along on a broad reach
under main alone with one reef in. The attachment of the leeboards was a little
worrisome but not the boat herself and neither I nor my crew were unduly
concerned about safety. Would I have taken her out in a winter full gale on that coast?
Not on your life. Yachting is supposed to be fun and that wouldn't have been.
Would I have taken her out under those conditions to save life? Only if the Coast
Guard and Sea Tow had been on strike and I was the only one available.
Would I have attempted to cross Buzzards Bay that sunny fall day with all those
whitecaps in an eight foot skiff with a little outboard on the back? No, it would not
have been prudent to do so.
Particularly in these days we are being fed a steady diet of terribly fear inducing news
with anthrax and terrorist attacks. Our messing about in boats should not be
contaminated with fear.
Know your boat. Develop your own judgment. If you are new to boating start
conservatively. Take it out often, to play as well as to cruise from here to there. The
better you know her , the better you will be able to judge whether or not she will be
comfortable, or useful, in that day's weather. A flat bottomed boat heeled is, in fact,
a v-bottomed boat. Only when in the middle of coming about, when she is directly head
to wind and fully upright, will she pound on any waves. Yes that might stop her. So, as
I said before, instead of coming about, gybe, carefully. The old time sea captains used
to do that a lot. Square riggers didn't tack very well and the danger of being taken
aback while coming about was a very unpleasant prospect. It generally meant
dismasting. Modern yachts don't have that as a danger but there is the possibility of
being 'caught in irons' and having to sail backwards a few feet with the tiller hard
over before she comes around. I can't say that I think too highly of taking a boat with
a blunt bow to windward in a blow. The occasional wave would strike her full on and
that too would stop her.
So, unless you're racing, head off a little to a close reach. Most of the pounding
would go away. You would go to windward a little more slowly but that would mean a
little more time to enjoy sailing.
Please don't worry too much about flat versus round or anything else. If you are building,
flat bottomed is probably easier. If you are buying new, flat bottomed is, all other things
equal, probably cheaper.
richard@...wrote:
> I mostly agree with Jim. I've been out in some pretty big waves, but
> you really run into trouble tacking with a sharpie in any kind of
> waves. And that square bow will go up and over, violently, any big
> waves you hit. And, going to weather is a drag in anything over a
> ripple, that hard chine churning through the waves sucks all your
> speed away.
>
> It's degenerated into me not taking my AF2 out in anything but light
> winds and flat water.
>
> One of the reasons I'm building the Chebacco.
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "Larry Barker" <lgbarker@i...> wrote:
> > Greetings,
> > Since many Bolger boats are flat bottomed, I thought it might be
> interesting to get this group's reaction to the latest column
> (15Oct01) from Jim Michalak (http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/).
> To quote from his page:
> > <quote>
> > First, NEVER TAKE A SMALL, LIGHT, BOAT OUT INTO WHITE CAPPED WAVES,
> ESPECIALLY A FLAT BOTTOMED BOAT! I know it is done and it can be done
> but I can assure you that those guys racing sailboats out there
> usually have a lot of experience, and they always have a
> substantial "crash boat" nearby to save them. You may have neither.
> Such conditions aren't safe or comfortable in the normal sense.
> >
> > You may think, "I can reef down and take this wind." True in
> protected waters that don't get rough, but once you are out in the
> whitecaps there is little you can do to ease the action of your
> little flat plywood boat. A 2' wave that crashed into the bow of a 3
> ton racing sailboat will make a lot of spray and make the skipper
> wiggle his course, but that same wave that crashed into the side of a
> 300 pound craft might knock it silly. Even if you can keep the boat
> upright, you may not be able to maneuver properly, not be able to
> tack through the wind to a new tack, because the light boat doesn't
> have the momentum to carry through the waves. And in these cases
> someone must always be at the tiller. If you are solo there will be
> no chance to reset a line or bail water.
> > <end quote>
> >
> > While I agree about the 2' wave, I'm not so sure about the rest. I
> suppose it depends a lot on the quantity and quality of the white
> caps. But I'm most curious to hear the reactions and, especially,
> the experiences of this group in regards to flat bottomed boats in
> rising winds and waves. And is the difficulty he mentioned getting
> away from the tiller the best argument for the cat-yawl configuration?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Larry Barker
> > Talent, Oregon (where the sun's still out but the frost is on the
> pumpkin)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I took my Windsprint out on Long Island's Great South Bay a year ago
and got pretty knocked around in a 20+ kt. breeze with short steep
whitecaps.
We were crossing from Fire Island to a point on the mainland
about 5 miles away -- and the breeze straight out of our destination.
It was hard to come about, so we made l-o-n-g tacks. Wavetops would
lap into the boat, but we avoided taking on green water. We were
constantly on edge, throwing our weight around to avoid capsize. I
was very glad to have a friend on board for this purpose -- much
easier than trying to balance the thing yourself in a squall. We
definitely slammed HARD if we came down off a wave wrong -- shivering
the boat, making me very quickly review the quality of all the joints
in it.
So all of Jim's points make sense. But the truth is -- it was a
GREAT day of sailing. The boat was light enough that it bobbed up and
over most waves like a cork. Yes, we were slowed and knocked around
some by the waves -- but falling off a few degrees and keeping one
chine hard down in the water helped a lot.
I'm glad I didn't have my infant daughter along -- that would've
been nuts -- but I guess the point is there are different kinds of
sailing. Jim's cautions apply to the tranquil, normal kind of
sailing. Yes -- that just doesn't happen in a flat-bottomed small
boat in whitecaps. But white-knuckled athletic sailing in a strong
boat you built yourself? Sure. There are better boats for the
conditions, but if you only have one and you want to go, just do it.
(Wear your PFD and bring some oars just in case . . .)
All best,
Garth
and got pretty knocked around in a 20+ kt. breeze with short steep
whitecaps.
We were crossing from Fire Island to a point on the mainland
about 5 miles away -- and the breeze straight out of our destination.
It was hard to come about, so we made l-o-n-g tacks. Wavetops would
lap into the boat, but we avoided taking on green water. We were
constantly on edge, throwing our weight around to avoid capsize. I
was very glad to have a friend on board for this purpose -- much
easier than trying to balance the thing yourself in a squall. We
definitely slammed HARD if we came down off a wave wrong -- shivering
the boat, making me very quickly review the quality of all the joints
in it.
So all of Jim's points make sense. But the truth is -- it was a
GREAT day of sailing. The boat was light enough that it bobbed up and
over most waves like a cork. Yes, we were slowed and knocked around
some by the waves -- but falling off a few degrees and keeping one
chine hard down in the water helped a lot.
I'm glad I didn't have my infant daughter along -- that would've
been nuts -- but I guess the point is there are different kinds of
sailing. Jim's cautions apply to the tranquil, normal kind of
sailing. Yes -- that just doesn't happen in a flat-bottomed small
boat in whitecaps. But white-knuckled athletic sailing in a strong
boat you built yourself? Sure. There are better boats for the
conditions, but if you only have one and you want to go, just do it.
(Wear your PFD and bring some oars just in case . . .)
All best,
Garth
I'd love to hear from some Martha Jane owners. I think of these
boats as being pretty capable cruisers; not blue water boats, but
comfortable going offshore a bit.
What's it like to sail a Martha Jane through waves/chop/heavy weather?
Bill Paxton
boats as being pretty capable cruisers; not blue water boats, but
comfortable going offshore a bit.
What's it like to sail a Martha Jane through waves/chop/heavy weather?
Bill Paxton
It is all relative, I have been in some pretty wild
weather in flat bottomed open canoes, and K1s. Once
after a 1000 mile drive I arrived at the farm in NB
with a strong desire to stretch my legs. We launched
a Klepper Arius (V hull, but that isn't my imediate
point) straight out into an actual huricane. This
wasn't my boat, and the water was warm, so my main
concern was keeping the boat in one piece. It was
impossible to turn without broaching, so we ferried
the length of the lake, until we could back into a
sheltered harbour. It wasn't dangerous at any time,
and this is a very squally lake.
One has to be mentaly prepared for doing what is
necesary to stay in control of the situation (which
here would have been not to launch). You have to
switch from thinkng about what you want to what the
weather wants. At some point that happens to all
boats, the big mistake is arround how and when you
react to the fact, and how patient you are. No doubt
you have more control over a rounded hull in waves, in
certain conditions.
This particular lake always lets you know who is in
charge. This summer my wife and I went out into the
lake for a midnight goodbye paddle, and.. paddled
straight out into a dead calm, to avoid the mosquitos.
We finally found a breeze, and then in the middle of
the night, in the middle of the lake, in perfect
weather, we were hit by an approaching thunder squall,
and offshore gale. Never a dull moment. We were
prepared to ride it to the far side of the lake if
necesary, though it weakened and passed to the north.
Part of my point is that, at least arround my home
waters, you don't get to choose the conditions.
--- Larry Barker <lgbarker@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Greetings,<BR>
Since many Bolger boats are flat bottomed, I thought
it might be interesting to get this group's reaction
to the latest column (15Oct01) from Jim Michalak (<a
href="http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/).">http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/).</a>
To quote from his page:<BR>
<quote><BR>
First, NEVER TAKE A SMALL, LIGHT, BOAT OUT INTO WHITE
CAPPED WAVES, ESPECIALLY A FLAT BOTTOMED BOAT! I know
it is done and it can be done but I can assure you
that those guys racing sailboats out there usually
have a lot of experience, and they always have a
substantial "crash boat" nearby to save
them. You may have neither. Such conditions aren't
safe or comfortable in the normal sense. <BR>
<BR>
You may think, "I can reef down and take this
wind." True in protected waters that don't get
rough, but once you are out in the whitecaps there is
little you can do to ease the action of your little
flat plywood boat. A 2' wave that crashed into
the bow of a 3 ton racing sailboat will make a lot of
spray and make the skipper wiggle his course, but that
same wave that crashed into the side of a 300 pound
craft might knock it silly. Even if you can keep the
boat upright, you may not be able to maneuver
properly, not be able to tack through the wind to a
new tack, because the light boat doesn't have the
momentum to carry through the waves. And in these
cases someone must always be at the tiller. If you are
solo there will be no chance to reset a line or bail
water. <BR>
<end quote><BR>
<BR>
While I agree about the 2' wave, I'm not so sure about
the rest. I suppose it depends a lot on the
quantity and quality of the white caps. But I'm
most curious to hear the reactions and, especially,
the experiences of this group in regards to flat
bottomed boats in rising winds and waves. And is
the difficulty he mentioned getting away from the
tiller the best argument for the cat-yawl
configuration?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Larry Barker<BR>
Talent, Oregon (where the sun's still out but the
frost is on the pumpkin)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
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Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
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bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
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_______________________________________________________
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Get your free @... address athttp://mail.yahoo.ca
weather in flat bottomed open canoes, and K1s. Once
after a 1000 mile drive I arrived at the farm in NB
with a strong desire to stretch my legs. We launched
a Klepper Arius (V hull, but that isn't my imediate
point) straight out into an actual huricane. This
wasn't my boat, and the water was warm, so my main
concern was keeping the boat in one piece. It was
impossible to turn without broaching, so we ferried
the length of the lake, until we could back into a
sheltered harbour. It wasn't dangerous at any time,
and this is a very squally lake.
One has to be mentaly prepared for doing what is
necesary to stay in control of the situation (which
here would have been not to launch). You have to
switch from thinkng about what you want to what the
weather wants. At some point that happens to all
boats, the big mistake is arround how and when you
react to the fact, and how patient you are. No doubt
you have more control over a rounded hull in waves, in
certain conditions.
This particular lake always lets you know who is in
charge. This summer my wife and I went out into the
lake for a midnight goodbye paddle, and.. paddled
straight out into a dead calm, to avoid the mosquitos.
We finally found a breeze, and then in the middle of
the night, in the middle of the lake, in perfect
weather, we were hit by an approaching thunder squall,
and offshore gale. Never a dull moment. We were
prepared to ride it to the far side of the lake if
necesary, though it weakened and passed to the north.
Part of my point is that, at least arround my home
waters, you don't get to choose the conditions.
--- Larry Barker <lgbarker@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Greetings,<BR>
Since many Bolger boats are flat bottomed, I thought
it might be interesting to get this group's reaction
to the latest column (15Oct01) from Jim Michalak (<a
href="http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/).">http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/).</a>
To quote from his page:<BR>
<quote><BR>
First, NEVER TAKE A SMALL, LIGHT, BOAT OUT INTO WHITE
CAPPED WAVES, ESPECIALLY A FLAT BOTTOMED BOAT! I know
it is done and it can be done but I can assure you
that those guys racing sailboats out there usually
have a lot of experience, and they always have a
substantial "crash boat" nearby to save
them. You may have neither. Such conditions aren't
safe or comfortable in the normal sense. <BR>
<BR>
You may think, "I can reef down and take this
wind." True in protected waters that don't get
rough, but once you are out in the whitecaps there is
little you can do to ease the action of your little
flat plywood boat. A 2' wave that crashed into
the bow of a 3 ton racing sailboat will make a lot of
spray and make the skipper wiggle his course, but that
same wave that crashed into the side of a 300 pound
craft might knock it silly. Even if you can keep the
boat upright, you may not be able to maneuver
properly, not be able to tack through the wind to a
new tack, because the light boat doesn't have the
momentum to carry through the waves. And in these
cases someone must always be at the tiller. If you are
solo there will be no chance to reset a line or bail
water. <BR>
<end quote><BR>
<BR>
While I agree about the 2' wave, I'm not so sure about
the rest. I suppose it depends a lot on the
quantity and quality of the white caps. But I'm
most curious to hear the reactions and, especially,
the experiences of this group in regards to flat
bottomed boats in rising winds and waves. And is
the difficulty he mentioned getting away from the
tiller the best argument for the cat-yawl
configuration?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Larry Barker<BR>
Talent, Oregon (where the sun's still out but the
frost is on the pumpkin)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[Non-text portions of this message have been
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<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
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<br>
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_______________________________________________________
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I mostly agree with Jim. I've been out in some pretty big waves, but
you really run into trouble tacking with a sharpie in any kind of
waves. And that square bow will go up and over, violently, any big
waves you hit. And, going to weather is a drag in anything over a
ripple, that hard chine churning through the waves sucks all your
speed away.
It's degenerated into me not taking my AF2 out in anything but light
winds and flat water.
One of the reasons I'm building the Chebacco.
you really run into trouble tacking with a sharpie in any kind of
waves. And that square bow will go up and over, violently, any big
waves you hit. And, going to weather is a drag in anything over a
ripple, that hard chine churning through the waves sucks all your
speed away.
It's degenerated into me not taking my AF2 out in anything but light
winds and flat water.
One of the reasons I'm building the Chebacco.
--- In bolger@y..., "Larry Barker" <lgbarker@i...> wrote:
> Greetings,
> Since many Bolger boats are flat bottomed, I thought it might be
interesting to get this group's reaction to the latest column
(15Oct01) from Jim Michalak (http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/).
To quote from his page:
> <quote>
> First, NEVER TAKE A SMALL, LIGHT, BOAT OUT INTO WHITE CAPPED WAVES,
ESPECIALLY A FLAT BOTTOMED BOAT! I know it is done and it can be done
but I can assure you that those guys racing sailboats out there
usually have a lot of experience, and they always have a
substantial "crash boat" nearby to save them. You may have neither.
Such conditions aren't safe or comfortable in the normal sense.
>
> You may think, "I can reef down and take this wind." True in
protected waters that don't get rough, but once you are out in the
whitecaps there is little you can do to ease the action of your
little flat plywood boat. A 2' wave that crashed into the bow of a 3
ton racing sailboat will make a lot of spray and make the skipper
wiggle his course, but that same wave that crashed into the side of a
300 pound craft might knock it silly. Even if you can keep the boat
upright, you may not be able to maneuver properly, not be able to
tack through the wind to a new tack, because the light boat doesn't
have the momentum to carry through the waves. And in these cases
someone must always be at the tiller. If you are solo there will be
no chance to reset a line or bail water.
> <end quote>
>
> While I agree about the 2' wave, I'm not so sure about the rest. I
suppose it depends a lot on the quantity and quality of the white
caps. But I'm most curious to hear the reactions and, especially,
the experiences of this group in regards to flat bottomed boats in
rising winds and waves. And is the difficulty he mentioned getting
away from the tiller the best argument for the cat-yawl configuration?
>
> Thanks,
> Larry Barker
> Talent, Oregon (where the sun's still out but the frost is on the
pumpkin)
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I mostly disagree.
I agree that there are 15kt conditions where you don't want to be
out, but there are plenty of wind/wave conditions where 25kts are
perfectly safe for a small boat that is propertly prepared. Properly
prepared is key - among other things, you have to have a good reefing
setup and a *reliable* boat and rig.
I've sailed my 15' Michalak AF3 (flat bottomed sharpie) with wife and
two small kids in 20-25 kt winds with single and double reefs (Jim
doesn't recommend two rows of reef points on the AF3 cause he doesn't
think you'll use them) in heavy winds in Nebraska and Wyoming lakes.
These lakes are deep, long and narrow reservoirs that get some wicked
prairie and mountain winds. When the wind is blowing the right
direction, you can get quite a fetch for big rollers with small
whitecaps. Our AF3 handles them like a charm.
Frank San Miguel
Wilmington, DE
I agree that there are 15kt conditions where you don't want to be
out, but there are plenty of wind/wave conditions where 25kts are
perfectly safe for a small boat that is propertly prepared. Properly
prepared is key - among other things, you have to have a good reefing
setup and a *reliable* boat and rig.
I've sailed my 15' Michalak AF3 (flat bottomed sharpie) with wife and
two small kids in 20-25 kt winds with single and double reefs (Jim
doesn't recommend two rows of reef points on the AF3 cause he doesn't
think you'll use them) in heavy winds in Nebraska and Wyoming lakes.
These lakes are deep, long and narrow reservoirs that get some wicked
prairie and mountain winds. When the wind is blowing the right
direction, you can get quite a fetch for big rollers with small
whitecaps. Our AF3 handles them like a charm.
Frank San Miguel
Wilmington, DE
--- In bolger@y..., "Larry Barker" <lgbarker@i...> wrote:
> Greetings,
> Since many Bolger boats are flat bottomed, I thought it might be
interesting to get this group's reaction to the latest column
(15Oct01) from Jim Michalak (http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/).
To quote from his page:
> <quote>
> First, NEVER TAKE A SMALL, LIGHT, BOAT OUT INTO WHITE CAPPED WAVES,
ESPECIALLY A FLAT BOTTOMED BOAT! I know it is done and it can be done
but I can assure you that those guys racing sailboats out there
usually have a lot of experience, and they always have a
substantial "crash boat" nearby to save them. You may have neither.
Such conditions aren't safe or comfortable in the normal sense.
>
> You may think, "I can reef down and take this wind." True in
protected waters that don't get rough, but once you are out in the
whitecaps there is little you can do to ease the action of your
little flat plywood boat. A 2' wave that crashed into the bow of a 3
ton racing sailboat will make a lot of spray and make the skipper
wiggle his course, but that same wave that crashed into the side of a
300 pound craft might knock it silly. Even if you can keep the boat
upright, you may not be able to maneuver properly, not be able to
tack through the wind to a new tack, because the light boat doesn't
have the momentum to carry through the waves. And in these cases
someone must always be at the tiller. If you are solo there will be
no chance to reset a line or bail water.
> <end quote>
>
> While I agree about the 2' wave, I'm not so sure about the rest. I
suppose it depends a lot on the quantity and quality of the white
caps. But I'm most curious to hear the reactions and, especially,
the experiences of this group in regards to flat bottomed boats in
rising winds and waves. And is the difficulty he mentioned getting
away from the tiller the best argument for the cat-yawl configuration?
>
> Thanks,
> Larry Barker
> Talent, Oregon (where the sun's still out but the frost is on the
pumpkin)
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In bolger@y..., "Larry Barker" <lgbarker@i...> wrote:
caps. But I'm most curious to hear the reactions and, especially,
the experiences of this group in regards to flat bottomed boats in
rising winds and waves. And is the difficulty he mentioned getting
away from the tiller the best argument for the cat-yawl configuration?
I've sailed on the lake he describes in the article. I could see
where it could get treacherous very easily. The day we were out, we
were in Chris Flynn's Bobcat (nice boat, BTW). It was blowing pretty
stiffly; I'd estimate 13-16 mph winds. It was choppy but not the 2'
whitecapped waves he describes in his essay. All I can say is that
Bobcat handled the conditions with aplomb. But I would not have
wanted to be out there in my flat bottomed Windsprint. A light, flat
bottomed boat has a hard time going to windward in a short, steep
chop. Between the lack of momentum of the light hull and the wave
unfriendly hull shape, they are badly stopped. Bobcat's multichine
shape just shouldered right through the 12" chop that day.
My flat bottomed powerboat is interesting to handle in high winds,
too. The light weight, high freeboard, and extreme shallow draft
means you get blown around a lot in 15-20 mph winds. But it's mostly
a problem in docking and loading on the trailer. As others have
pointed out, any chop means you have to slow down if you don't want
to pound the boat to pieces. Bolger has remarked that if the boat is
long enough and you have enough power and room to manuver you can
often find an angle and speed to bridge the chop and minimize
pounding. I've seen this with my boat and I also recall Kilburn Adams
making the same point regarding his SkiffAmerica.
I think Jim's essay is pretty good, except that he does not make the
point that it's the period or wavelength of the waves, not the size
that cause problems for most boaters. For a 12-15' light sailboat, a
set of two foot waves 150' apart isn't a big problem, the same waves
30' apart are. The amount of whitewater on top of the whitecaps is
also an issue. If it's like the shorebreak at the beach, then yeah,
that's no fun. If there's a little 6" break at the top of a longer
amplitude wave, then hey, that is fun!
The most fun I ever had on a sailboat was in my Starfish boardboat
(think 'Sunfish') on a lake in West Texas. It was blowing a solid 20
with gusts to 30. The lake was only about one mile by two miles. It
felt like I was going 50 miles an hour on those long broad reaches.
The sailboarders who kept passing me were going about that fast, but
going 8-11 mph in a 14' sailboat is a real thrill.
JB
JB
>suppose it depends a lot on the quantity and quality of the white
> While I agree about the 2' wave, I'm not so sure about the rest. I
caps. But I'm most curious to hear the reactions and, especially,
the experiences of this group in regards to flat bottomed boats in
rising winds and waves. And is the difficulty he mentioned getting
away from the tiller the best argument for the cat-yawl configuration?
I've sailed on the lake he describes in the article. I could see
where it could get treacherous very easily. The day we were out, we
were in Chris Flynn's Bobcat (nice boat, BTW). It was blowing pretty
stiffly; I'd estimate 13-16 mph winds. It was choppy but not the 2'
whitecapped waves he describes in his essay. All I can say is that
Bobcat handled the conditions with aplomb. But I would not have
wanted to be out there in my flat bottomed Windsprint. A light, flat
bottomed boat has a hard time going to windward in a short, steep
chop. Between the lack of momentum of the light hull and the wave
unfriendly hull shape, they are badly stopped. Bobcat's multichine
shape just shouldered right through the 12" chop that day.
My flat bottomed powerboat is interesting to handle in high winds,
too. The light weight, high freeboard, and extreme shallow draft
means you get blown around a lot in 15-20 mph winds. But it's mostly
a problem in docking and loading on the trailer. As others have
pointed out, any chop means you have to slow down if you don't want
to pound the boat to pieces. Bolger has remarked that if the boat is
long enough and you have enough power and room to manuver you can
often find an angle and speed to bridge the chop and minimize
pounding. I've seen this with my boat and I also recall Kilburn Adams
making the same point regarding his SkiffAmerica.
I think Jim's essay is pretty good, except that he does not make the
point that it's the period or wavelength of the waves, not the size
that cause problems for most boaters. For a 12-15' light sailboat, a
set of two foot waves 150' apart isn't a big problem, the same waves
30' apart are. The amount of whitewater on top of the whitecaps is
also an issue. If it's like the shorebreak at the beach, then yeah,
that's no fun. If there's a little 6" break at the top of a longer
amplitude wave, then hey, that is fun!
The most fun I ever had on a sailboat was in my Starfish boardboat
(think 'Sunfish') on a lake in West Texas. It was blowing a solid 20
with gusts to 30. The lake was only about one mile by two miles. It
felt like I was going 50 miles an hour on those long broad reaches.
The sailboarders who kept passing me were going about that fast, but
going 8-11 mph in a 14' sailboat is a real thrill.
JB
JB
Here's what I've learned and noticed...
Flat-bottomed power boats on flat water are the faster than any other
skimming or planing hull shapes. As the seas increase a flat-
bottomed boat must slow down a lot. Designers compensate for this by
changing the hull shape to increase sea-keeping and top speed in
heavier seas. When the seas return to flat water this modified hull
will have a slower top speed than the same boat with a flat bottom.
As you can see, it is one of those design compromises.
Once the skipper decides what seas he/she wants to operate in then
the appropriate hull shape can be selected. If they know they are
only day-sailing in good conditions then the flat-bottomed boat is
going to be faster, and probably cheaper as well.
Now, on to flat-bottomed sailing boats. In all points of sail except
downwind, the flat-bottomed boat doesn't sail flat. As soon as it
heels the hull becomes a deep vee with the chine acting as the keel.
Most of the coasting schooners had flat bottoms and could operate in
all but heavy seas and gales. The only time a flat-bottom boat is
sailing flat is while downwind and since the boat is traveling about
the same speed as the waves it is not a wild ride as long as the boat
can be maneuvered.
Flat-bottomed power boats on flat water are the faster than any other
skimming or planing hull shapes. As the seas increase a flat-
bottomed boat must slow down a lot. Designers compensate for this by
changing the hull shape to increase sea-keeping and top speed in
heavier seas. When the seas return to flat water this modified hull
will have a slower top speed than the same boat with a flat bottom.
As you can see, it is one of those design compromises.
Once the skipper decides what seas he/she wants to operate in then
the appropriate hull shape can be selected. If they know they are
only day-sailing in good conditions then the flat-bottomed boat is
going to be faster, and probably cheaper as well.
Now, on to flat-bottomed sailing boats. In all points of sail except
downwind, the flat-bottomed boat doesn't sail flat. As soon as it
heels the hull becomes a deep vee with the chine acting as the keel.
Most of the coasting schooners had flat bottoms and could operate in
all but heavy seas and gales. The only time a flat-bottom boat is
sailing flat is while downwind and since the boat is traveling about
the same speed as the waves it is not a wild ride as long as the boat
can be maneuvered.
Greetings,
Since many Bolger boats are flat bottomed, I thought it might be interesting to get this group's reaction to the latest column (15Oct01) from Jim Michalak (http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/). To quote from his page:
<quote>
First, NEVER TAKE A SMALL, LIGHT, BOAT OUT INTO WHITE CAPPED WAVES, ESPECIALLY A FLAT BOTTOMED BOAT! I know it is done and it can be done but I can assure you that those guys racing sailboats out there usually have a lot of experience, and they always have a substantial "crash boat" nearby to save them. You may have neither. Such conditions aren't safe or comfortable in the normal sense.
You may think, "I can reef down and take this wind." True in protected waters that don't get rough, but once you are out in the whitecaps there is little you can do to ease the action of your little flat plywood boat. A 2' wave that crashed into the bow of a 3 ton racing sailboat will make a lot of spray and make the skipper wiggle his course, but that same wave that crashed into the side of a 300 pound craft might knock it silly. Even if you can keep the boat upright, you may not be able to maneuver properly, not be able to tack through the wind to a new tack, because the light boat doesn't have the momentum to carry through the waves. And in these cases someone must always be at the tiller. If you are solo there will be no chance to reset a line or bail water.
<end quote>
While I agree about the 2' wave, I'm not so sure about the rest. I suppose it depends a lot on the quantity and quality of the white caps. But I'm most curious to hear the reactions and, especially, the experiences of this group in regards to flat bottomed boats in rising winds and waves. And is the difficulty he mentioned getting away from the tiller the best argument for the cat-yawl configuration?
Thanks,
Larry Barker
Talent, Oregon (where the sun's still out but the frost is on the pumpkin)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Since many Bolger boats are flat bottomed, I thought it might be interesting to get this group's reaction to the latest column (15Oct01) from Jim Michalak (http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/). To quote from his page:
<quote>
First, NEVER TAKE A SMALL, LIGHT, BOAT OUT INTO WHITE CAPPED WAVES, ESPECIALLY A FLAT BOTTOMED BOAT! I know it is done and it can be done but I can assure you that those guys racing sailboats out there usually have a lot of experience, and they always have a substantial "crash boat" nearby to save them. You may have neither. Such conditions aren't safe or comfortable in the normal sense.
You may think, "I can reef down and take this wind." True in protected waters that don't get rough, but once you are out in the whitecaps there is little you can do to ease the action of your little flat plywood boat. A 2' wave that crashed into the bow of a 3 ton racing sailboat will make a lot of spray and make the skipper wiggle his course, but that same wave that crashed into the side of a 300 pound craft might knock it silly. Even if you can keep the boat upright, you may not be able to maneuver properly, not be able to tack through the wind to a new tack, because the light boat doesn't have the momentum to carry through the waves. And in these cases someone must always be at the tiller. If you are solo there will be no chance to reset a line or bail water.
<end quote>
While I agree about the 2' wave, I'm not so sure about the rest. I suppose it depends a lot on the quantity and quality of the white caps. But I'm most curious to hear the reactions and, especially, the experiences of this group in regards to flat bottomed boats in rising winds and waves. And is the difficulty he mentioned getting away from the tiller the best argument for the cat-yawl configuration?
Thanks,
Larry Barker
Talent, Oregon (where the sun's still out but the frost is on the pumpkin)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]