Re: [bolger] Re: Stability

In a message dated 11/1/01 7:51:39 PM Central Standard Time,
pateson@...writes:

> Like a bat, till it came time to turn.
> Motor turned, boat turned, but course remained the same.
>

I take it from your survival that you didn't "trip" and roll while
trying to turn the boat. I'm curious as to why not. Good sense?

Does anyone have any idea what the concept or execution was behing the
"anti-trip" chines on Hickman sea-sleds? Bolger is on record that he thinks
Hickman squandered his talents with his concentration on this type. Hickman's
"sea-sleds" were anything but flat-bottomed, at least in their mature
configuration, but remarks in the literature suggest that they might have had
an unfortunate tendency to "trip" without the prophylatic chines.

Bill in MN

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 10/31/01 11:32:31 PM Central Standard Time,
chuck@...writes:

> Is this the picture you guys are talking about?:
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/reports/04/hillbilly.jpg
>
> Chuck
>
>
>

By George! (or By Chuck!) It certainly looks like the one I recall. I
remembered the make of the motor correctly, but had forgotten (perhaps didn't
notice?) the "transom" on this table. Thanks, Chuck! (Duckworks is a great
magazine, by the way, IMHO)

Bill in MN

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I didn't think anybody saw me.

My first "Power boat" had a very similar underwater shape.

4'x8' (wonder why) box with slightly curve up bow.
No skeg, runners, nothin, on the bottom.
Didn't have the little overhangs of the table top,
but pretty much the same.

Great, straight ahead. Fast!
First, and only real outing was on a long, narrow lake.
Like a bat, till it came time to turn.
Motor turned, boat turned, but course remained the same.
It did not "carve out a turn". It would not change course.
I think it was one of those Newton's laws things.
I had to slow down to get it to turn around and try it
in the other direction. Same result. Back and forth
with the motor, only provided different angles to view
straight down the lake.
Interesting.
That was the same boat that became a "Submersible" when,
loaded with three 12 year old boys, and one decided to move
up front a little for a better ride.
Totally decked, so no harm. Just started to "Plane"
toward the bottom, till I killed the motor.
I think, luckily, the motor pretty much decided to
stay dead, which is why I am able to write about it
almost 40 years later.
God works in mysterious ways, and that boat performed
likewise.

That "table" overhang does look interesting.

Only one way to find out.

I've got a table.

Any body got a motor?

Pat

--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> If the table is 4.5 x 3 feet, and the top and skirts
> amount to 6", then we are talking about a displacement
> of 420#. Not bad, all he needs is the matching Bimini
> top.
>
>
> --- Chuck Leinweber <chuck@d...>
> wrote:
>
> <HR>
> <html><body>
> <tt>
> Is this the picture you guys are talking about?: 
> <a
>
href="http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/reports/04/hillbilly.jpg">http:
//www.duckworksmagazine.com/reports/04/hillbilly.jpg</a> 
> 
> Chuck 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 10/31/01 9:23:17 AM Central
> Standard Time, 
> jmbell@m... writes: 
> 
> 
> > While that table was planing, I would have
> liked to see what happened when 
> > he threw the helm over hard. A long skid
> followed by a spectacular high-side 
> > trip? 
> > 
> > 
> 
> A very interesting question! I'd never thought
> about that. I wonder if the 
> "rake" of the lower unit would have
> an influence on whether it would just 
> skid sideways until the inevitable bad outcome
> occurred or if it would nicely 
> carve out a turn? I'd be willing to bet that
> they didn't try it out! (I would 
> have been pretty cautious - up to a point, at
> least) It would sure be neat to 
> learn the details of how the stunt was done,
> wouldn't it? 
> 
> p.s. Is there any prospect that you could send
> the photo to me via e-mail? 
> I'd love to see how far my memory diverges from
> reality. 
> 
> Ciao for Niao 
> Bill in MN 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed] 
> 
> </tt>
>
> 
>
> 
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If the table is 4.5 x 3 feet, and the top and skirts
amount to 6", then we are talking about a displacement
of 420#. Not bad, all he needs is the matching Bimini
top.

--- Chuck Leinweber <chuck@...>
wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Is this the picture you guys are talking about?: 
<a
href="http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/reports/04/hillbilly.jpg">http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/reports/04/hillbilly.jpg</a> 
 
Chuck 
 
 
In a message dated 10/31/01 9:23:17 AM Central
Standard Time, 
jmbell@...writes: 
 
 
> While that table was planing, I would have
liked to see what happened when 
> he threw the helm over hard. A long skid
followed by a spectacular high-side 
> trip? 
> 
> 
 
A very interesting question! I'd never thought
about that. I wonder if the 
"rake" of the lower unit would have
an influence on whether it would just 
skid sideways until the inevitable bad outcome
occurred or if it would nicely 
carve out a turn? I'd be willing to bet that
they didn't try it out! (I would 
have been pretty cautious - up to a point, at
least) It would sure be neat to 
learn the details of how the stunt was done,
wouldn't it? 
 
p.s. Is there any prospect that you could send
the photo to me via e-mail? 
I'd love to see how far my memory diverges from
reality. 
 
Ciao for Niao 
Bill in MN 
 
 
 
 
 
 
[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed] 
 
</tt>

 



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_______________________________________________________
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Is this the picture you guys are talking about?:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/reports/04/hillbilly.jpg

Chuck

In a message dated 10/31/01 9:23:17 AM Central Standard Time,
jmbell@...writes:

> While that table was planing, I would have liked to see what happened when
> he threw the helm over hard. A long skid followed by a spectacular high-side
> trip?
>
>

A very interesting question! I'd never thought about that. I wonder if the
"rake" of the lower unit would have an influence on whether it would just
skid sideways until the inevitable bad outcome occurred or if it would nicely
carve out a turn? I'd be willing to bet that they didn't try it out! (I would
have been pretty cautious - up to a point, at least) It would sure be neat to
learn the details of how the stunt was done, wouldn't it?

p.s. Is there any prospect that you could send the photo to me via e-mail?
I'd love to see how far my memory diverges from reality.

Ciao for Niao
Bill in MN

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rhett Davis
ravenous@...
Sea Griffin Gallery & Books
PO Box 1415
Darien, GA 31305
http://www.gate.net/~ravenous/book/bookone.htm
Now at ABE

----- Original Message -----
From: <wmrpage@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Stability

> In a message dated 10/31/01 9:23:17 AM Central Standard Time,
>jmbell@...writes:
>
>
> > While that table was planing, I would have liked to see what happened
when
> > he threw the helm over hard. A long skid followed by a spectacular
high-side
> > trip?
> >
> >
>
> A very interesting question! I'd never thought about that. I wonder if the
> "rake" of the lower unit would have an influence on whether it would just
> skid sideways until the inevitable bad outcome occurred or if it would
nicely
> carve out a turn? I'd be willing to bet that they didn't try it out! (I
would
> have been pretty cautious - up to a point, at least) It would sure be neat
to
> learn the details of how the stunt was done, wouldn't it?
>
> p.s. Is there any prospect that you could send the photo to me via e-mail?
> I'd love to see how far my memory diverges from reality.
>
> Ciao for Niao
> Bill in MN
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 10/31/01 9:23:17 AM Central Standard Time,
jmbell@...writes:

> While that table was planing, I would have liked to see what happened when
> he threw the helm over hard. A long skid followed by a spectacular high-side
> trip?
>
>

I read an article on this phenomenon and it's called "chine walking"
especially if the boat has two motors and no trim tabs. Power boats with
this quirk have to be constantly steered and trim adjusted with the trim
tabs. I understand it's a common problem with deep vee hulls, especially if
heavy built and high powered. It's not necessarily dangerous unless in big
swells but gives a sea sickness inducing ride by flopping side to side.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <wmrpage@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Stability

> In a message dated 10/30/01 7:40:43 PM Central Standard Time,
>jmbell@...writes:
>
>
> > I've got a picture
> > somewhere of a guy zipping around on an overturned library table fitted
with
> > about a 5 hp outboard. That table is very clearly up on plane.
> >
> >
>
> You must be either ancient or an antiquarian! I recall an advertisement
about
> 100 years ago in the old "Rudder" magazine. I believe it was for Mercury
> outboards, with a caption "Given the right power, I can plane a tabletop!"
> It featured a photograph of a male planing a simple upside-down table (a
> "kitchen table", I would call it, somewhat smaller and lighter than a
> "library table"). I remember being skeptical that it had enough freeboard
for
> him to get it started without some kind of special arrangements, but there
> was no doubt that it was planing as nice as could be in the photo.
>
> I agree that you are right on the money that "flat" is best for planing in
> flat water. On another note, somewhere in Bolger's opus he remarks that
> "deep-V" hulls, if driven fast enough, have a tendency to "flop" over on
one
> side or the other and plane on one "side" of the "V". I've never
experienced
> or witnessed that phenomena, but wouldn't want to be on board a boat that
did
> that - it would have to be travelling at some prodigious speed - sounds
both
> scary and dangerous.
>
> Bill in MN
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Maybe the design needs some drop-leaves ...

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Bell" <jmbell@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Stability

> I'm not that old, somebody sent it to me over the internet.
>
> While that table was planing, I would have liked to see what happened when
> he threw the helm over hard. A long skid followed by a spectacular
high-side
> trip?
>
> JB

I'm not that old, somebody sent it to me over the internet.

While that table was planing, I would have liked to see what happened when
he threw the helm over hard. A long skid followed by a spectacular high-side
trip?

JB

----- Original Message -----
From: <wmrpage@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Stability

| In a message dated 10/30/01 7:40:43 PM Central Standard Time,
|jmbell@...writes:
|
|
| > I've got a picture
| > somewhere of a guy zipping around on an overturned library table fitted
with
| > about a 5 hp outboard. That table is very clearly up on plane.
| >
| >
|
| You must be either ancient or an antiquarian! I recall an advertisement
about
| 100 years ago in the old "Rudder" magazine. I believe it was for Mercury
| outboards, with a caption "Given the right power, I can plane a tabletop!"
| It featured a photograph of a male planing a simple upside-down table (a
| "kitchen table", I would call it, somewhat smaller and lighter than a
| "library table"). I remember being skeptical that it had enough freeboard
for
| him to get it started without some kind of special arrangements, but there
| was no doubt that it was planing as nice as could be in the photo.

I wasn't suggesting that a flat bottom boat was ideal for fly
fishing. With very broad generality we have only two flyfishing
specific craft (that don't require waders) one is the Mackenzie drift
Boat, the image of which Diablo did not conjur up. The other is the
flats boat. Of course most boats could be used for FF, and with the
expantion of salt water fishing all over the place, different types
of hulls are becoming pretty necesary.

My point was just that if you want an FF flats boat, or a boat which
allows a simmilar degree of platform for a flyrod, you might want to
consider a flat bottom boat in order to aquire stability. The
ability of a Diablo to firm up with the gunnel near the water might
impress me if the objective was freestyle canoe paddling ;o), but not
so much where serious fishing is concerned.

Of course flats boats are V bottomed, but they are also pretty heavy,
which is their source of stability. A flat bottom boat not only has
greatter form stability, but provides the option of a lower center of
gravity. I can't really see someone poling from a platform mounted
over the motor on a diablo, but I think it might be possible on the
clam skiff series. Anyone who has seen the ad with guy setting his
hook into a passing jet skier, will appreciate the need for
stability ;O).

But as I said, if we are just talking about a boat from which fly
fishing might occur, then the sky is the limit as far as options are
concerned.

--- In bolger@y..., don@s... wrote:
> In what I am reading some people are suggesting that a flat bottom
> boat might be better for stability for fly fishing. I still what
to
> be able to get the boat on the plane with not to large sized motor.
>
> I know very little about hull design. Can you get a flat bottom
boat
> on the plane? Do you need more horse power?
>
> What are the advantages and disadvantages of the V and flat bottom
> designs?
>
> What boats would people suggest?
>
> regards
>
> Don

In a message dated 10/30/01 7:40:43 PM Central Standard Time,
jmbell@...writes:

> I've got a picture
> somewhere of a guy zipping around on an overturned library table fitted with
> about a 5 hp outboard. That table is very clearly up on plane.
>
>

You must be either ancient or an antiquarian! I recall an advertisement about
100 years ago in the old "Rudder" magazine. I believe it was for Mercury
outboards, with a caption "Given the right power, I can plane a tabletop!"
It featured a photograph of a male planing a simple upside-down table (a
"kitchen table", I would call it, somewhat smaller and lighter than a
"library table"). I remember being skeptical that it had enough freeboard for
him to get it started without some kind of special arrangements, but there
was no doubt that it was planing as nice as could be in the photo.

I agree that you are right on the money that "flat" is best for planing in
flat water. On another note, somewhere in Bolger's opus he remarks that
"deep-V" hulls, if driven fast enough, have a tendency to "flop" over on one
side or the other and plane on one "side" of the "V". I've never experienced
or witnessed that phenomena, but wouldn't want to be on board a boat that did
that - it would have to be travelling at some prodigious speed - sounds both
scary and dangerous.

Bill in MN

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You're in luck. The flat bottom is the easiest hull type to get on plane
with the least amount of power. The drawback to flat bottoms is they are
hard riding in rough water, hence the development of other planing hull
types. The other consideration in planing is not just hull form, but weight.
A flat light boat will plane with very little power. I've got a picture
somewhere of a guy zipping around on an overturned library table fitted with
about a 5 hp outboard. That table is very clearly up on plane.

While I'm not capable of creating an exhaustive list, here is my stab at the
pros and cons. Others will certainly join in:

Flat bottom pros - shallow draft, good primary stability, low power needed
for planing, easily built, makes very small wake.
Flat bottom cons - Unstable when deeply laden, poor ultimate stability,
pounds in rough water, blows away in crosswinds, prone to 'tripping' in
hard, high speed turns.

Vbottom pros - better in rough water, less sensitive to heavy loading,
greater load carrying capacity, safer in high speed corners, higher ultimate
stability, capable of going faster in rough water, less affected by cross
winds.
Vbottom cons - harder and more expensive to build, higher power requirement
for a given speed, deep vees can be tiddly at anchor, deeper draft, bigger
wakes.

JB

----- Original Message -----
From: <don@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:39 PM
Subject: [bolger] Stability

| In what I am reading some people are suggesting that a flat bottom
| boat might be better for stability for fly fishing. I still what to
| be able to get the boat on the plane with not to large sized motor.
|
| I know very little about hull design. Can you get a flat bottom boat
| on the plane? Do you need more horse power?
|
| What are the advantages and disadvantages of the V and flat bottom
| designs?
|
| What boats would people suggest?
|
| regards
|
| Don
|
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
| - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
| - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|

In what I am reading some people are suggesting that a flat bottom
boat might be better for stability for fly fishing. I still what to
be able to get the boat on the plane with not to large sized motor.

I know very little about hull design. Can you get a flat bottom boat
on the plane? Do you need more horse power?

What are the advantages and disadvantages of the V and flat bottom
designs?

What boats would people suggest?

regards

Don

No need for additions, John, you nailed it!

Chuck

You're in luck. The flat bottom is the easiest hull type to get on plane
with the least amount of power. The drawback to flat bottoms is they are
hard riding in rough water, hence the development of other planing hull
types. The other consideration in planing is not just hull form, but weight.
A flat light boat will plane with very little power. I've got a picture
somewhere of a guy zipping around on an overturned library table fitted with
about a 5 hp outboard. That table is very clearly up on plane.

While I'm not capable of creating an exhaustive list, here is my stab at the
pros and cons. Others will certainly join in:

Flat bottom pros - shallow draft, good primary stability, low power needed
for planing, easily built, makes very small wake.
Flat bottom cons - Unstable when deeply laden, poor ultimate stability,
pounds in rough water, blows away in crosswinds, prone to 'tripping' in
hard, high speed turns.

Vbottom pros - better in rough water, less sensitive to heavy loading,
greater load carrying capacity, safer in high speed corners, higher ultimate
stability, capable of going faster in rough water, less affected by cross
winds.
Vbottom cons - harder and more expensive to build, higher power requirement
for a given speed, deep vees can be tiddly at anchor, deeper draft, bigger
wakes.

JB

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]