Re: ZephyrCat/WindsprintTri
--- In bolger@y..., stephen@p... wrote:
talking up a job that's not yet done. As soon as I have the plans,
you will all hear about it. (I promise!)
Regards to all,
Matthew
> Aw, you can't at least tell us which design he's modifying?Sorry, but I don't want to put any pressure on PCB & Susanne by
talking up a job that's not yet done. As soon as I have the plans,
you will all hear about it. (I promise!)
Regards to all,
Matthew
Aw, you can't at least tell us which design he's modifying?
Since neither the design nor I will be ready to start building until
the spring, I'll just have to leave you all in suspense. Suffice to
say that we will get something along these lines from the master.
Since neither the design nor I will be ready to start building until
the spring, I'll just have to leave you all in suspense. Suffice to
say that we will get something along these lines from the master.
>
> Regards to all,
>
> Matthew Long
> Off soon to the Caribbean for 2 years (really!)
The general perception is that short of wacking into a
dock etc... the maximum load condition occurs when the
boat pitches all its weight on the front beam, during
capsize. Of course there are all kinds of
possibilities, but that seems one of the ones where if
you design for all of the load in that condition, you
are pretty clear. I will check into some of my
manuals and plans and post something tommorow night.
---teakdeck@...wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Thomas,<BR>
<BR>
The mast is 15' high, unstayed. The sail is 120 sq.
ft. The maximum beam is <BR>
8'. That is because I imagine that's as wide a beam as
I need to have a very <BR>
stable platform. Obviously, I could use 10' 2x4's for
a wider beam. The <BR>
unsupported width is only about 2.5'. Again, the main
hull is 16' x 4' and <BR>
the floats are 12' x 1' tapered at both ends.<BR>
<BR>
My concern, having set-up the boat on the trailer, is
where the beam connects <BR>
to the main hull. I'm imagining that some combination
of waves and wind might <BR>
cause leverage at that point and snap or crack the
beam. It's very possible <BR>
I'm concerned for no reason. If the boat
"gives" in the water when one float <BR>
lifts or falls, then the load shouldn't be that great.
Where I sail on thin <BR>
water in Puget Sound, we are not talking big wave
action. Boat wakes might <BR>
generate the worst chop.<BR>
<BR>
Mike Masten<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 11/7/01 11:39:52 PM Pacific
Standard Time, <BR>
proaconstrictor@...writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< To really know where you are in the envolope,
I would<BR>
have to know rig size height, staying, the
maximum<BR>
beam, displacement, the length of the unsuported<BR>
section (between the hulls) of your beams, and
their<BR>
orientation to the load. I'd still be guessing
but at<BR>
least it would be vagely educated. >><BR>
</tt>
<br>
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dock etc... the maximum load condition occurs when the
boat pitches all its weight on the front beam, during
capsize. Of course there are all kinds of
possibilities, but that seems one of the ones where if
you design for all of the load in that condition, you
are pretty clear. I will check into some of my
manuals and plans and post something tommorow night.
---teakdeck@...wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Thomas,<BR>
<BR>
The mast is 15' high, unstayed. The sail is 120 sq.
ft. The maximum beam is <BR>
8'. That is because I imagine that's as wide a beam as
I need to have a very <BR>
stable platform. Obviously, I could use 10' 2x4's for
a wider beam. The <BR>
unsupported width is only about 2.5'. Again, the main
hull is 16' x 4' and <BR>
the floats are 12' x 1' tapered at both ends.<BR>
<BR>
My concern, having set-up the boat on the trailer, is
where the beam connects <BR>
to the main hull. I'm imagining that some combination
of waves and wind might <BR>
cause leverage at that point and snap or crack the
beam. It's very possible <BR>
I'm concerned for no reason. If the boat
"gives" in the water when one float <BR>
lifts or falls, then the load shouldn't be that great.
Where I sail on thin <BR>
water in Puget Sound, we are not talking big wave
action. Boat wakes might <BR>
generate the worst chop.<BR>
<BR>
Mike Masten<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 11/7/01 11:39:52 PM Pacific
Standard Time, <BR>
proaconstrictor@...writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< To really know where you are in the envolope,
I would<BR>
have to know rig size height, staying, the
maximum<BR>
beam, displacement, the length of the unsuported<BR>
section (between the hulls) of your beams, and
their<BR>
orientation to the load. I'd still be guessing
but at<BR>
least it would be vagely educated. >><BR>
</tt>
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
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I would take a look at James Wharram's lashed attachment system for
cat hull beams for inspiration, and also at Thomas Firth Jones's
Weekender design for very solid fixed system.
All this talk of little multihull Bolger boats makes me itch to talk
about a modification of an existing design which I have commissioned
from Phil Bolger & Friends. Since neither the design nor I will be
ready to start building until the spring, I'll just have to leave you
all in suspense. Suffice to say that we will get something along
these lines from the master.
Regards to all,
Matthew Long
Off soon to the Caribbean for 2 years (really!)
cat hull beams for inspiration, and also at Thomas Firth Jones's
Weekender design for very solid fixed system.
All this talk of little multihull Bolger boats makes me itch to talk
about a modification of an existing design which I have commissioned
from Phil Bolger & Friends. Since neither the design nor I will be
ready to start building until the spring, I'll just have to leave you
all in suspense. Suffice to say that we will get something along
these lines from the master.
Regards to all,
Matthew Long
Off soon to the Caribbean for 2 years (really!)
Thomas,
The mast is 15' high, unstayed. The sail is 120 sq. ft. The maximum beam is
8'. That is because I imagine that's as wide a beam as I need to have a very
stable platform. Obviously, I could use 10' 2x4's for a wider beam. The
unsupported width is only about 2.5'. Again, the main hull is 16' x 4' and
the floats are 12' x 1' tapered at both ends.
My concern, having set-up the boat on the trailer, is where the beam connects
to the main hull. I'm imagining that some combination of waves and wind might
cause leverage at that point and snap or crack the beam. It's very possible
I'm concerned for no reason. If the boat "gives" in the water when one float
lifts or falls, then the load shouldn't be that great. Where I sail on thin
water in Puget Sound, we are not talking big wave action. Boat wakes might
generate the worst chop.
Mike Masten
In a message dated 11/7/01 11:39:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
proaconstrictor@...writes:
<< To really know where you are in the envolope, I would
have to know rig size height, staying, the maximum
beam, displacement, the length of the unsuported
section (between the hulls) of your beams, and their
orientation to the load. I'd still be guessing but at
least it would be vagely educated. >>
The mast is 15' high, unstayed. The sail is 120 sq. ft. The maximum beam is
8'. That is because I imagine that's as wide a beam as I need to have a very
stable platform. Obviously, I could use 10' 2x4's for a wider beam. The
unsupported width is only about 2.5'. Again, the main hull is 16' x 4' and
the floats are 12' x 1' tapered at both ends.
My concern, having set-up the boat on the trailer, is where the beam connects
to the main hull. I'm imagining that some combination of waves and wind might
cause leverage at that point and snap or crack the beam. It's very possible
I'm concerned for no reason. If the boat "gives" in the water when one float
lifts or falls, then the load shouldn't be that great. Where I sail on thin
water in Puget Sound, we are not talking big wave action. Boat wakes might
generate the worst chop.
Mike Masten
In a message dated 11/7/01 11:39:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
proaconstrictor@...writes:
<< To really know where you are in the envolope, I would
have to know rig size height, staying, the maximum
beam, displacement, the length of the unsuported
section (between the hulls) of your beams, and their
orientation to the load. I'd still be guessing but at
least it would be vagely educated. >>
The deal is you want to convert those flexing loads to
compresion loads, where twobies will carry thousands
of pounds. That's were wire comes in.
To really know where you are in the envolope, I would
have to know rig size height, staying, the maximum
beam, displacement, the length of the unsuported
section (between the hulls) of your beams, and their
orientation to the load. I'd still be guessing but at
least it would be vagely educated.
Also look at those Kayak rigs (is Winsprit 16').
There was an unstayed Kayak rig in a wooden boat mag,
plans and all it was a CLC design. Another
touchstone.
---teakdeck@...wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
In a message dated 11/6/01 9:20:35 AM Pacific Standard
Time, <BR>
david@...writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< You may (or may not) recall my question about
twin kayak/catamaran <BR>
designs. I've been pondering the whole notion further
and have begun <BR>
to wonder about a catamaran based on two zephyr
hulls. >><BR>
<BR>
Some of you may recall I am adding outriggers (amas?)
to my Windsprint. I <BR>
designed them and I don't know if they will work or
not. They are 12' long <BR>
and double ended. They are a foot square in the the
midsection. The bottom is <BR>
rockered to 6" at the bow and stern. I built them
instant boat style with <BR>
outside gunwales and chines. I had to kerf the chines
to make the curve. At <BR>
this point I've applied primer and I'm about to paint
them with a latex <BR>
exterior gloss.<BR>
<BR>
My biggest problem right now is how to attach them.
Well, actually, I have <BR>
attached them using two eight foot 2x4's, bolted to
the main hull and to the <BR>
amas. I suspect the 2x4's will break. I'm thinking
about aluminum tubes. Any <BR>
ideas?<BR>
<BR>
I've set up the boat on the trailer and it looks like
it will work. Not too <BR>
dissimilar to a Windrider, if any of you have seen
one. I rented one and took <BR>
it out on the Puget Sound near Port Townsend. What a
great little boat! Fast <BR>
and stable, pure enjoyment. But not much room. If my
Windsprint tri works, it <BR>
will have those qualities plus roominess.<BR>
<BR>
Mike Masten<BR>
</tt>
<br>
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<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
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dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
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compresion loads, where twobies will carry thousands
of pounds. That's were wire comes in.
To really know where you are in the envolope, I would
have to know rig size height, staying, the maximum
beam, displacement, the length of the unsuported
section (between the hulls) of your beams, and their
orientation to the load. I'd still be guessing but at
least it would be vagely educated.
Also look at those Kayak rigs (is Winsprit 16').
There was an unstayed Kayak rig in a wooden boat mag,
plans and all it was a CLC design. Another
touchstone.
---teakdeck@...wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
In a message dated 11/6/01 9:20:35 AM Pacific Standard
Time, <BR>
david@...writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< You may (or may not) recall my question about
twin kayak/catamaran <BR>
designs. I've been pondering the whole notion further
and have begun <BR>
to wonder about a catamaran based on two zephyr
hulls. >><BR>
<BR>
Some of you may recall I am adding outriggers (amas?)
to my Windsprint. I <BR>
designed them and I don't know if they will work or
not. They are 12' long <BR>
and double ended. They are a foot square in the the
midsection. The bottom is <BR>
rockered to 6" at the bow and stern. I built them
instant boat style with <BR>
outside gunwales and chines. I had to kerf the chines
to make the curve. At <BR>
this point I've applied primer and I'm about to paint
them with a latex <BR>
exterior gloss.<BR>
<BR>
My biggest problem right now is how to attach them.
Well, actually, I have <BR>
attached them using two eight foot 2x4's, bolted to
the main hull and to the <BR>
amas. I suspect the 2x4's will break. I'm thinking
about aluminum tubes. Any <BR>
ideas?<BR>
<BR>
I've set up the boat on the trailer and it looks like
it will work. Not too <BR>
dissimilar to a Windrider, if any of you have seen
one. I rented one and took <BR>
it out on the Puget Sound near Port Townsend. What a
great little boat! Fast <BR>
and stable, pure enjoyment. But not much room. If my
Windsprint tri works, it <BR>
will have those qualities plus roominess.<BR>
<BR>
Mike Masten<BR>
</tt>
<br>
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<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
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Beams can add up to significant weight on small tris.
Consider wire for that reason, it gives the best
strength for the weight. A good place to look for
solutions are the 3 metre boats Marples, Hughes, and
Bolger all have them, and the loads may be in the
range for what you have in mind. Of course Tarantula
wasn't designed as a tri, and is a bit of a halfbreed
like a lot of Bolger's multis. He has the
displacement in that boat to carry box beams, plus it
is a daysailer.
Of course, silly me, this is presumably an unstayed
rig, which presuposes loads that an unstayed beam
system of modest dimensions should be up to.
--- John Bell <jmbell@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
How about building plywood box beam akas like Bolger
drew for the trimaran<BR>
version of Tarantula? See BWAOM.<BR>
<BR>
JB<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Consider wire for that reason, it gives the best
strength for the weight. A good place to look for
solutions are the 3 metre boats Marples, Hughes, and
Bolger all have them, and the loads may be in the
range for what you have in mind. Of course Tarantula
wasn't designed as a tri, and is a bit of a halfbreed
like a lot of Bolger's multis. He has the
displacement in that boat to carry box beams, plus it
is a daysailer.
Of course, silly me, this is presumably an unstayed
rig, which presuposes loads that an unstayed beam
system of modest dimensions should be up to.
--- John Bell <jmbell@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
How about building plywood box beam akas like Bolger
drew for the trimaran<BR>
version of Tarantula? See BWAOM.<BR>
<BR>
JB<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <teakdeck@...><BR>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:52 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: [bolger] ZephyrCat/WindsprintTri<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
| My biggest problem right now is how to attach them.
Well, actually, I have<BR>
| attached them using two eight foot 2x4's, bolted to
the main hull and to<BR>
the<BR>
| amas. I suspect the 2x4's will break. I'm thinking
about aluminum tubes.<BR>
Any<BR>
| ideas?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
<br>
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Bolger rules!!!<BR>
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dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
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I don't think that adding glass to the bottom of the
beams is a good strategy for strength, though it is a
great strategy for sheathing, or for strength in terms
of ensuring that a fiber doesn't lift up on the stud,
and propegate a break. The problem I have run into
with composite reinforcements that aren't really
carefuly worked out, is how they complement each
other. If you use just a little glass, then it won't
carry the load first, possibly not until the stud
starts to go, and then its too late. With graphite it
is the opposite, it carries all the load, and unless
you add enough of it to cover those loads, it goes
bang, and creates a stress raiser for the wood, which
then goes snap. Seen it happen. It is rarely a good
idea to just add a little for a confidence factor.
Wood is really stiff stuff, use enough of it for what
you have in mind, or get some real engineering advice
(I realize that's overkill in this case). The
Gougeons have long pointed out that unless you are
going carbon fibre, don't count on glass grade
materials for stiffness over wood.
A lot of the old designs used 2 2x4s for the forward
beam, and one aft up to about 20 feet. Needs to be
very good wood. Another way to look at it is a tube
equal to your mast section, with dolphin strikers.
---richard@...wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
--- In bolger@y..., teakdeck@a... wrote:<BR>
kayak/catamaran <BR>
begun <BR>
Windsprint. I <BR>
<snip><BR>
tubes. Any <BR>
Why would they break? They are sticking out what, a
couple of feet, <BR>
from the main hull? Can you suspend one of the 2x4's
between two <BR>
sawhorses a couple of feet appart and walk on it? Sure
you can, even <BR>
with the flat side down.<BR>
<BR>
If you are worried, add some glass to the bottom of
the 2x4's, this <BR>
should dramaticly strengthen them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
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beams is a good strategy for strength, though it is a
great strategy for sheathing, or for strength in terms
of ensuring that a fiber doesn't lift up on the stud,
and propegate a break. The problem I have run into
with composite reinforcements that aren't really
carefuly worked out, is how they complement each
other. If you use just a little glass, then it won't
carry the load first, possibly not until the stud
starts to go, and then its too late. With graphite it
is the opposite, it carries all the load, and unless
you add enough of it to cover those loads, it goes
bang, and creates a stress raiser for the wood, which
then goes snap. Seen it happen. It is rarely a good
idea to just add a little for a confidence factor.
Wood is really stiff stuff, use enough of it for what
you have in mind, or get some real engineering advice
(I realize that's overkill in this case). The
Gougeons have long pointed out that unless you are
going carbon fibre, don't count on glass grade
materials for stiffness over wood.
A lot of the old designs used 2 2x4s for the forward
beam, and one aft up to about 20 feet. Needs to be
very good wood. Another way to look at it is a tube
equal to your mast section, with dolphin strikers.
---richard@...wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
--- In bolger@y..., teakdeck@a... wrote:<BR>
> In a message dated 11/6/01 9:20:35 AM PacificStandard Time, <BR>
> david@c... writes:<BR>about twin <BR>
> <BR>
> << You may (or may not) recall my question
kayak/catamaran <BR>
> designs. I've been pondering the wholenotion further and have <BR>
begun <BR>
> to wonder about a catamaran based on twozephyr hulls. >><BR>
> <BR>(amas?) to my <BR>
> Some of you may recall I am adding outriggers
Windsprint. I <BR>
<snip><BR>
> amas. I suspect the 2x4's will break. I'mthinking about aluminum <BR>
tubes. Any <BR>
> ideas?<BR><BR>
> <BR>
Why would they break? They are sticking out what, a
couple of feet, <BR>
from the main hull? Can you suspend one of the 2x4's
between two <BR>
sawhorses a couple of feet appart and walk on it? Sure
you can, even <BR>
with the flat side down.<BR>
<BR>
If you are worried, add some glass to the bottom of
the 2x4's, this <BR>
should dramaticly strengthen them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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--- In bolger@y..., teakdeck@a... wrote:
<snip>
from the main hull? Can you suspend one of the 2x4's between two
sawhorses a couple of feet appart and walk on it? Sure you can, even
with the flat side down.
If you are worried, add some glass to the bottom of the 2x4's, this
should dramaticly strengthen them.
> In a message dated 11/6/01 9:20:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,kayak/catamaran
> david@c... writes:
>
> << You may (or may not) recall my question about twin
> designs. I've been pondering the whole notion further and havebegun
> to wonder about a catamaran based on two zephyr hulls. >>Windsprint. I
>
> Some of you may recall I am adding outriggers (amas?) to my
<snip>
> amas. I suspect the 2x4's will break. I'm thinking about aluminumtubes. Any
> ideas?Why would they break? They are sticking out what, a couple of feet,
>
from the main hull? Can you suspend one of the 2x4's between two
sawhorses a couple of feet appart and walk on it? Sure you can, even
with the flat side down.
If you are worried, add some glass to the bottom of the 2x4's, this
should dramaticly strengthen them.
How about building plywood box beam akas like Bolger drew for the trimaran
version of Tarantula? See BWAOM.
JB
version of Tarantula? See BWAOM.
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: <teakdeck@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] ZephyrCat/WindsprintTri
| My biggest problem right now is how to attach them. Well, actually, I have
| attached them using two eight foot 2x4's, bolted to the main hull and to
the
| amas. I suspect the 2x4's will break. I'm thinking about aluminum tubes.
Any
| ideas?
In a message dated 11/6/01 9:20:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,
david@...writes:
<< You may (or may not) recall my question about twin kayak/catamaran
designs. I've been pondering the whole notion further and have begun
to wonder about a catamaran based on two zephyr hulls. >>
Some of you may recall I am adding outriggers (amas?) to my Windsprint. I
designed them and I don't know if they will work or not. They are 12' long
and double ended. They are a foot square in the the midsection. The bottom is
rockered to 6" at the bow and stern. I built them instant boat style with
outside gunwales and chines. I had to kerf the chines to make the curve. At
this point I've applied primer and I'm about to paint them with a latex
exterior gloss.
My biggest problem right now is how to attach them. Well, actually, I have
attached them using two eight foot 2x4's, bolted to the main hull and to the
amas. I suspect the 2x4's will break. I'm thinking about aluminum tubes. Any
ideas?
I've set up the boat on the trailer and it looks like it will work. Not too
dissimilar to a Windrider, if any of you have seen one. I rented one and took
it out on the Puget Sound near Port Townsend. What a great little boat! Fast
and stable, pure enjoyment. But not much room. If my Windsprint tri works, it
will have those qualities plus roominess.
Mike Masten
david@...writes:
<< You may (or may not) recall my question about twin kayak/catamaran
designs. I've been pondering the whole notion further and have begun
to wonder about a catamaran based on two zephyr hulls. >>
Some of you may recall I am adding outriggers (amas?) to my Windsprint. I
designed them and I don't know if they will work or not. They are 12' long
and double ended. They are a foot square in the the midsection. The bottom is
rockered to 6" at the bow and stern. I built them instant boat style with
outside gunwales and chines. I had to kerf the chines to make the curve. At
this point I've applied primer and I'm about to paint them with a latex
exterior gloss.
My biggest problem right now is how to attach them. Well, actually, I have
attached them using two eight foot 2x4's, bolted to the main hull and to the
amas. I suspect the 2x4's will break. I'm thinking about aluminum tubes. Any
ideas?
I've set up the boat on the trailer and it looks like it will work. Not too
dissimilar to a Windrider, if any of you have seen one. I rented one and took
it out on the Puget Sound near Port Townsend. What a great little boat! Fast
and stable, pure enjoyment. But not much room. If my Windsprint tri works, it
will have those qualities plus roominess.
Mike Masten