Re: Wandervogel
so went ahead and built a Birdwatcher. I still intend
ask you about how you applied your lexan windows, and what rig did you
use? It'll help motivate me to cast aside my resposibilities and spend
a little time on something truly meaningful... working on my BW2.
Thanks, David
> to follow through with Wandervogel though. I had a letter from themWould you mind sharing your BW sailing experiences? I'd also like to
> last fall responding to my report on the BW first outings.
ask you about how you applied your lexan windows, and what rig did you
use? It'll help motivate me to cast aside my resposibilities and spend
a little time on something truly meaningful... working on my BW2.
Thanks, David
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "oarmandt" <oarman89@...> wrote:
Thank you for giving us an update. You did such a great job on the
model I was certain that all the details were correct including the
sail plan. I still prefer your version to the full Chinese gaf rig!
Perhaps with flat battens inserted at the breaks in the sail cloth?
(I am awaiting Don in KIWI land's response:-)
I am sure you are aware that the hull shape resembles a smaller
version of FIJI. Also similar in uderbody profile to SITKA EXPLORER.
TAHITI, both off-shoots of TOPAZ
http://journeyboats.com/photo_journal.htm
In all those shapes (including YONDER) the forfoot is deeper than
the mid-body hull profile. So in affect showing some "hogging" of
the keel-line in profile. An older design BARNOWL also shows this to
my eye. Sort of a "coke-bottle" shape in profile and which is
explained further in the SITKA article. They also do not hesitate to
introduce this deeper forfoot in the anti-kerphlumping mods to MICRO
NAV, BWII and the AS29 upgrades.
Also they seem to be leaning towards the armor plating on the bottom
rather than water ballast or internal lead ballast in some of their
updates. Matching up and connecting a steel plate to the bottom of a
plywood/glass/epoxy matrix still seems a bit of mystery to me. But
obviously it gives very strong protection to a hulL that is capable
of runninG right up to the shore.
I would have to wonder why WANDERVOGEL needs two cenerboards when
FIJI and even LE CABATIN only have one? Perhaps only one is used
depending on which tack you are taking? I would suggest that given a
tight centerboard case, perhaps lined with UMHF would be more stable
and stronger than leeboards?
Did you build the earlier version of BIRDWATCHER? Of course I feel
inclined to ask about photos and your experience with it.
I have to wonder too about why the time spent by PCB&F to design a
better fishing fleet is such a priority when the fishing is not
really all that viable when there are so few fish anyway?
Nels
>to
> That is my model on the home page of Bolger 3. The model was built
> from a preliminary drawing. I am still waiting for the commission
> get to the top of PB&F's list. Fifteen months ago, I got tired ofintend
> waiting for it, so went ahead and built a Birdwatcher. I still
> to follow through with Wandervogel though. I had a letter fromthem
> last fall responding to my report on the BW first outings. Theyhad
> given priority to a couple of projects including a commercialfishing
> vessel that had grown beyond expectations. They were thenreturning
> to their backlog of commissions.cat
>
> The design started with cartoon 101 in 103 Sailing Rigs. It was a
> there, but has since grown a mizzen. Once you have the sheetstaff,
> why not a yawl?they
>
> In the book, the boat has leeboards. In the preliminary drawing,
> propose bilgeboards encased in the seat backs of the settees.There
> is a touch of flare to this hull, so the bilgeboards angle inwardat
> the bottom. I think I would rather have the leeboards. The hullForward,
> bottom is flat side to side from about 40% to the transom.
> it has a vee section. I think the intent was to add on the veebelow
> the rockered flat bottom.to
>
> The preliminary drawing was pretty basic, so I did fill in details
> make the model. This is a Chinese Gaff. That is a vang holdingthe
> boom down by holding up the extension forward of the mast. Theintent
> is to have a disc attached to the mast with rollers on the boomsquare
> bearing upward against the disc. The sailplan indicates a 295
> foot main with four battens and a 67 square foot mizzen, fullymain
> battened. There may or may not be a beam across the cabin slot top
> half way fore and aft. That is my interpretation from where the
> sheet lands. Masts were intended to be aluminum pipe, but Irequested
> a wooden design instead thinking this could be done lighter.rudders.
>
> The outboard will go right on the transom, between the two
> The mizzen tabernacle is a piece of work to hold the mizzen mastconcept
> centered above the outboard.
>
> Water ballast was intended, but PB&F likes the armoured bottom
> a bit better I think.Hi Doug,
>
> Doug
Thank you for giving us an update. You did such a great job on the
model I was certain that all the details were correct including the
sail plan. I still prefer your version to the full Chinese gaf rig!
Perhaps with flat battens inserted at the breaks in the sail cloth?
(I am awaiting Don in KIWI land's response:-)
I am sure you are aware that the hull shape resembles a smaller
version of FIJI. Also similar in uderbody profile to SITKA EXPLORER.
TAHITI, both off-shoots of TOPAZ
http://journeyboats.com/photo_journal.htm
In all those shapes (including YONDER) the forfoot is deeper than
the mid-body hull profile. So in affect showing some "hogging" of
the keel-line in profile. An older design BARNOWL also shows this to
my eye. Sort of a "coke-bottle" shape in profile and which is
explained further in the SITKA article. They also do not hesitate to
introduce this deeper forfoot in the anti-kerphlumping mods to MICRO
NAV, BWII and the AS29 upgrades.
Also they seem to be leaning towards the armor plating on the bottom
rather than water ballast or internal lead ballast in some of their
updates. Matching up and connecting a steel plate to the bottom of a
plywood/glass/epoxy matrix still seems a bit of mystery to me. But
obviously it gives very strong protection to a hulL that is capable
of runninG right up to the shore.
I would have to wonder why WANDERVOGEL needs two cenerboards when
FIJI and even LE CABATIN only have one? Perhaps only one is used
depending on which tack you are taking? I would suggest that given a
tight centerboard case, perhaps lined with UMHF would be more stable
and stronger than leeboards?
Did you build the earlier version of BIRDWATCHER? Of course I feel
inclined to ask about photos and your experience with it.
I have to wonder too about why the time spent by PCB&F to design a
better fishing fleet is such a priority when the fishing is not
really all that viable when there are so few fish anyway?
Nels
That is my model on the home page of Bolger 3. The model was built
from a preliminary drawing. I am still waiting for the commission to
get to the top of PB&F's list. Fifteen months ago, I got tired of
waiting for it, so went ahead and built a Birdwatcher. I still intend
to follow through with Wandervogel though. I had a letter from them
last fall responding to my report on the BW first outings. They had
given priority to a couple of projects including a commercial fishing
vessel that had grown beyond expectations. They were then returning
to their backlog of commissions.
The design started with cartoon 101 in 103 Sailing Rigs. It was a cat
there, but has since grown a mizzen. Once you have the sheet staff,
why not a yawl?
In the book, the boat has leeboards. In the preliminary drawing, they
propose bilgeboards encased in the seat backs of the settees. There
is a touch of flare to this hull, so the bilgeboards angle inward at
the bottom. I think I would rather have the leeboards. The hull
bottom is flat side to side from about 40% to the transom. Forward,
it has a vee section. I think the intent was to add on the vee below
the rockered flat bottom.
The preliminary drawing was pretty basic, so I did fill in details to
make the model. This is a Chinese Gaff. That is a vang holding the
boom down by holding up the extension forward of the mast. The intent
is to have a disc attached to the mast with rollers on the boom
bearing upward against the disc. The sailplan indicates a 295 square
foot main with four battens and a 67 square foot mizzen, fully
battened. There may or may not be a beam across the cabin slot top
half way fore and aft. That is my interpretation from where the main
sheet lands. Masts were intended to be aluminum pipe, but I requested
a wooden design instead thinking this could be done lighter.
The outboard will go right on the transom, between the two rudders.
The mizzen tabernacle is a piece of work to hold the mizzen mast
centered above the outboard.
Water ballast was intended, but PB&F likes the armoured bottom concept
a bit better I think.
Doug
from a preliminary drawing. I am still waiting for the commission to
get to the top of PB&F's list. Fifteen months ago, I got tired of
waiting for it, so went ahead and built a Birdwatcher. I still intend
to follow through with Wandervogel though. I had a letter from them
last fall responding to my report on the BW first outings. They had
given priority to a couple of projects including a commercial fishing
vessel that had grown beyond expectations. They were then returning
to their backlog of commissions.
The design started with cartoon 101 in 103 Sailing Rigs. It was a cat
there, but has since grown a mizzen. Once you have the sheet staff,
why not a yawl?
In the book, the boat has leeboards. In the preliminary drawing, they
propose bilgeboards encased in the seat backs of the settees. There
is a touch of flare to this hull, so the bilgeboards angle inward at
the bottom. I think I would rather have the leeboards. The hull
bottom is flat side to side from about 40% to the transom. Forward,
it has a vee section. I think the intent was to add on the vee below
the rockered flat bottom.
The preliminary drawing was pretty basic, so I did fill in details to
make the model. This is a Chinese Gaff. That is a vang holding the
boom down by holding up the extension forward of the mast. The intent
is to have a disc attached to the mast with rollers on the boom
bearing upward against the disc. The sailplan indicates a 295 square
foot main with four battens and a 67 square foot mizzen, fully
battened. There may or may not be a beam across the cabin slot top
half way fore and aft. That is my interpretation from where the main
sheet lands. Masts were intended to be aluminum pipe, but I requested
a wooden design instead thinking this could be done lighter.
The outboard will go right on the transom, between the two rudders.
The mizzen tabernacle is a piece of work to hold the mizzen mast
centered above the outboard.
Water ballast was intended, but PB&F likes the armoured bottom concept
a bit better I think.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> The photos of the above model at Bolger 5 photos, are greatly enhanced
> now that they are available for all to view in the larger size.
>
> I am curious about several features on this model, including the spar
> design, the rudder set-up and what kind of keel it has? Also how one
> fits a motor on that stern? (Must have a well like WDJ I assume.)
>
> There is a bit of background information starting with Message 45683
> in this group showing the dimensions similar to Martha Jane. L 23'9" B
> 6' 9" Draft 8" (?).
>
> It seems to be a shame this design is apparently still not available.
> How long is it appropriate to wait I wonder, for a commission to be
> completed? It must be very frustrating also for the others who have
> been waiting up to two years or more it seems.
>
> In addition there are some of us who would like to make requests and
> know it is fruitless.
>
> One has to wonder what is going on with that? Are there just too many
> distractions in the PCB&F firm I wonder?
>
> Nels
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
One option might be to consider adding links to the photos or
webisites from the relevant files at the cartoons only site.
Another option might be to catagorize the designs into sizes or
types and then create a separate yahoo group for each catagory. I
think this is more or less standard procedure at most boat design
websites.
Also some groups have several assistant moderators as back-up
helpers.
It pains me that PCB&F are obviously losing a lot of business by
being so inaccessable. JUst look at what Jim Michalak, John Welsford
and Paul Fisher are doing, just to mention three who's designs are
of interest to me.
Sure, PCB&F are going to leave a great heritage behind, but why not
make more of it accessible right now?
A working partnership between Duckworks and MAIB with online access
to all the Bolger articles comes to mind.
Boy wouldn't that be great?
Nels
> Some volunteer could win my admiration for stepping up and creatingI would love to win your admiration but I are a computer dud.
> an index of the files/photos stored on yahoo Bolger groups.
One option might be to consider adding links to the photos or
webisites from the relevant files at the cartoons only site.
Another option might be to catagorize the designs into sizes or
types and then create a separate yahoo group for each catagory. I
think this is more or less standard procedure at most boat design
websites.
Also some groups have several assistant moderators as back-up
helpers.
It pains me that PCB&F are obviously losing a lot of business by
being so inaccessable. JUst look at what Jim Michalak, John Welsford
and Paul Fisher are doing, just to mention three who's designs are
of interest to me.
Sure, PCB&F are going to leave a great heritage behind, but why not
make more of it accessible right now?
A working partnership between Duckworks and MAIB with online access
to all the Bolger articles comes to mind.
Boy wouldn't that be great?
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
#1. In viewing the sail plan one wonders how well that would work
on a Micro Navigator alright!? ( I only have 100 Small Boats Rigs
which does not include this one.) It appears that there is a vang
wire or line that is attached forward of the boom and pulls upward?
This clears the area abaft of the mast where a conventional vang
would be mounted. Then it shows another vang line from the gaff peak
to the mizzen mast. Is this correct? It would hold the gaff steady
and prevent twist? Also it looks like the mainsheet could be
adjusted from inside the house. And there seems to be the hint of an
off-centerboard trunk on the starboard side of the cabin. Also the
lexan enclosed area extends right back to the stern!
#2. Looks like there is a solid ring that encircles the mast and is
hinged to the gaff. The forward end of the gaff is cut on an angle
so that it meets with, and further supports the gaffs position
against the mast when it is raised and peaked. Likewise for the
mizzen. Both masts are simple untapered pipes or of wooden
birdsmouth style.
#3. I expect reefs could easily be tied in from the Birdwatcher slot
and the slot may have two separate covers. There seems to be a beam
athwartship about halfway down the cabin opening.
This sailplan looks like a great compromise on a trailer sailor
compared to the Chinese gaff rig.
Guess I will have to purchase 103 Small Boat Rigs.
Or commission PCB&F to do a similar re-design on the Long Micro
plans. But then how long would that take I wonder?
Nels
>Further observations regarding the Wandervogel photos.
> The first photo is so dark you can't see.
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/105329537/
>
> Shows a lightened version. I now notice a sheet from the
> mizzen staff to the tip of the top gaff, kind of like
> balanced lug version of a Chinese Gaff sail rig.
>
#1. In viewing the sail plan one wonders how well that would work
on a Micro Navigator alright!? ( I only have 100 Small Boats Rigs
which does not include this one.) It appears that there is a vang
wire or line that is attached forward of the boom and pulls upward?
This clears the area abaft of the mast where a conventional vang
would be mounted. Then it shows another vang line from the gaff peak
to the mizzen mast. Is this correct? It would hold the gaff steady
and prevent twist? Also it looks like the mainsheet could be
adjusted from inside the house. And there seems to be the hint of an
off-centerboard trunk on the starboard side of the cabin. Also the
lexan enclosed area extends right back to the stern!
#2. Looks like there is a solid ring that encircles the mast and is
hinged to the gaff. The forward end of the gaff is cut on an angle
so that it meets with, and further supports the gaffs position
against the mast when it is raised and peaked. Likewise for the
mizzen. Both masts are simple untapered pipes or of wooden
birdsmouth style.
#3. I expect reefs could easily be tied in from the Birdwatcher slot
and the slot may have two separate covers. There seems to be a beam
athwartship about halfway down the cabin opening.
This sailplan looks like a great compromise on a trailer sailor
compared to the Chinese gaff rig.
Guess I will have to purchase 103 Small Boat Rigs.
Or commission PCB&F to do a similar re-design on the Long Micro
plans. But then how long would that take I wonder?
Nels
The first photo is so dark you can't see.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/105329537/
Shows a lightened version. I now notice a sheet from the
mizzen staff to the tip of the top gaff, kind of like
balanced lug version of a Chinese Gaff sail rig.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/105329537/
Shows a lightened version. I now notice a sheet from the
mizzen staff to the tip of the top gaff, kind of like
balanced lug version of a Chinese Gaff sail rig.
The first photo is so dark you can see.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/105329537/
Shows a lightened version. I now notice a sheet from the
mizzen staff to the tip of the top gaff, kind of like a Chinese
Gaff sail rig.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/105329537/
Shows a lightened version. I now notice a sheet from the
mizzen staff to the tip of the top gaff, kind of like a Chinese
Gaff sail rig.
Correction: That should be Bolger3 photos!
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/photos/browse/3cab
Viewing photo #3 at that location it shows the somewhat oversize
rudder system with very stout bracing and heavy scantlings.
So I am wondering if that assembly works a bit like leeboards to
lessen leeway, and then you have a small centerboard in the bow to add
to directional balance?
This is why I am curious if there has been any write-up of this design.
Nels
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/photos/browse/3cab
Viewing photo #3 at that location it shows the somewhat oversize
rudder system with very stout bracing and heavy scantlings.
So I am wondering if that assembly works a bit like leeboards to
lessen leeway, and then you have a small centerboard in the bow to add
to directional balance?
This is why I am curious if there has been any write-up of this design.
Nels
On 2/27/06, Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/photos/browse/3cab
Some volunteer could win my admiration for stepping up and creating
an index of the files/photos stored on yahoo Bolger groups.
> The photos of the above model at Bolger 5 photos, are greatly enhancedYou probably mean Bolger3.
> now that they are available for all to view in the larger size.
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/photos/browse/3cab
Some volunteer could win my admiration for stepping up and creating
an index of the files/photos stored on yahoo Bolger groups.
The photos of the above model at Bolger 5 photos, are greatly enhanced
now that they are available for all to view in the larger size.
I am curious about several features on this model, including the spar
design, the rudder set-up and what kind of keel it has? Also how one
fits a motor on that stern? (Must have a well like WDJ I assume.)
There is a bit of background information starting with Message 45683
in this group showing the dimensions similar to Martha Jane. L 23'9" B
6' 9" Draft 8" (?).
It seems to be a shame this design is apparently still not available.
How long is it appropriate to wait I wonder, for a commission to be
completed? It must be very frustrating also for the others who have
been waiting up to two years or more it seems.
In addition there are some of us who would like to make requests and
know it is fruitless.
One has to wonder what is going on with that? Are there just too many
distractions in the PCB&F firm I wonder?
Nels
now that they are available for all to view in the larger size.
I am curious about several features on this model, including the spar
design, the rudder set-up and what kind of keel it has? Also how one
fits a motor on that stern? (Must have a well like WDJ I assume.)
There is a bit of background information starting with Message 45683
in this group showing the dimensions similar to Martha Jane. L 23'9" B
6' 9" Draft 8" (?).
It seems to be a shame this design is apparently still not available.
How long is it appropriate to wait I wonder, for a commission to be
completed? It must be very frustrating also for the others who have
been waiting up to two years or more it seems.
In addition there are some of us who would like to make requests and
know it is fruitless.
One has to wonder what is going on with that? Are there just too many
distractions in the PCB&F firm I wonder?
Nels
To avoid confussion (mine) I'll use two seperate posts for two very seperate
questions. For this message the questions is: Does anyone know if
Wandervogel (#101 in 103 Sailing Rigs) ever became a real boat, or even a
complete plan? Thought I'd check with the Bolger community before going to
the source.
jeb, loosing sleep over how to stretch a 30'x36' piece of greenhouse plastic
over the bare bones frame of my new workshop on the shores of Fundy.
questions. For this message the questions is: Does anyone know if
Wandervogel (#101 in 103 Sailing Rigs) ever became a real boat, or even a
complete plan? Thought I'd check with the Bolger community before going to
the source.
jeb, loosing sleep over how to stretch a 30'x36' piece of greenhouse plastic
over the bare bones frame of my new workshop on the shores of Fundy.