Re: Yawl and Sloop Rigs
A little late, but I'll wade in here.
(I'm a poor swimmer and don't want to get over my head.)
Technically, a "Cat" rig is the most efficient, upwind.
Especially a "Wing Mast". i.e. Class C Catamarans, and
High performance sail planes.
Adding a "Jib" begins to bring into the equation
the "Slot" effect, where the air speed between the jib and
the back side of the main is increased and therefore the air
pressure is lowered increasing the lift and forward drive.
As the boat falls further off the wind, the "Jibs" get larger, and
become more of a driving sail rather that merely a "Flap" in front
of the main.
Multi-Masted Boats come in here with all those arcane sails, with
names only a few of us have the knowledge to even argue about, and
that in by-gone days would have to have know how to control in a
dark gale. (Oh sailing)
Yes. A Proper Schooner Is The Most Beautiful Boat In The World.
In a "Sloop", this process continues through a myriad of exotic
Headsails.
The "Main" becomes less significant until it is finally doused,
and an even more exotic array of spinnakers become the ultimate
downwind means of propulsion.
Some "Yawls" came into vogue, as do many unusual designs as
"Rule Cheaters" when Racing rules were written to give two masted
boats some advantage when old Schooners and Ketches were being
soundly beaten by the "New" Sloops.
Take a Huge Sloop Rig, hang a "Handkerchief" on a stick at the stern
and call it a "Yawl" ("Hey it's got Two Masts don't it.")
Not much power in those little sails, but they won a lot of races.
That was the major "Performance Advantange".
The "Yawl" does have the afore mentioned advantage of allowing steady
anchoring, but
Also has the added advantage of being a handy "Self Steering"
arrangement.
Got in a little deep. Now I'm treadin' water.
Pat
(I'm a poor swimmer and don't want to get over my head.)
Technically, a "Cat" rig is the most efficient, upwind.
Especially a "Wing Mast". i.e. Class C Catamarans, and
High performance sail planes.
Adding a "Jib" begins to bring into the equation
the "Slot" effect, where the air speed between the jib and
the back side of the main is increased and therefore the air
pressure is lowered increasing the lift and forward drive.
As the boat falls further off the wind, the "Jibs" get larger, and
become more of a driving sail rather that merely a "Flap" in front
of the main.
Multi-Masted Boats come in here with all those arcane sails, with
names only a few of us have the knowledge to even argue about, and
that in by-gone days would have to have know how to control in a
dark gale. (Oh sailing)
Yes. A Proper Schooner Is The Most Beautiful Boat In The World.
In a "Sloop", this process continues through a myriad of exotic
Headsails.
The "Main" becomes less significant until it is finally doused,
and an even more exotic array of spinnakers become the ultimate
downwind means of propulsion.
Some "Yawls" came into vogue, as do many unusual designs as
"Rule Cheaters" when Racing rules were written to give two masted
boats some advantage when old Schooners and Ketches were being
soundly beaten by the "New" Sloops.
Take a Huge Sloop Rig, hang a "Handkerchief" on a stick at the stern
and call it a "Yawl" ("Hey it's got Two Masts don't it.")
Not much power in those little sails, but they won a lot of races.
That was the major "Performance Advantange".
The "Yawl" does have the afore mentioned advantage of allowing steady
anchoring, but
Also has the added advantage of being a handy "Self Steering"
arrangement.
Got in a little deep. Now I'm treadin' water.
Pat
--- In bolger@y..., PseudoDion3@a... wrote:
> I would appreciate it if someone could educate me about the
> performance advantages and disadvantages between a yawl rig and
sloop
> rig.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dennis Marshall
Dennis,
Considering the small size of the mizzen mast,sail etc...likely
to be found /used on a 16'footer,the level of complexity is reduced to
nothing more then having to build another mast.The actual sailing
remains the same since the mizzen will be sheeted in hard for
balance(usually) and be self-tending.
Most folks unfamiliar with this rig or to sailing for that
matter,tend to think that because a boat has more then one mast it
must be neccesarily more"difficult" to sail. It ain't true,says
I,although I do enjoy the implied compliment that I therefore must be
a better sailor to handle such a rig.And this despite the fact that I
am still amazed that I can"harness the four winds" long enough to
actually get my boat to move ;-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
P.S. Nordkoster is very very sexy......gets me to thinking about the
Elver I once built and owned.She almost oozed her sensuality were it
not for the cloth and epoxy holding it all in!
Considering the small size of the mizzen mast,sail etc...likely
to be found /used on a 16'footer,the level of complexity is reduced to
nothing more then having to build another mast.The actual sailing
remains the same since the mizzen will be sheeted in hard for
balance(usually) and be self-tending.
Most folks unfamiliar with this rig or to sailing for that
matter,tend to think that because a boat has more then one mast it
must be neccesarily more"difficult" to sail. It ain't true,says
I,although I do enjoy the implied compliment that I therefore must be
a better sailor to handle such a rig.And this despite the fact that I
am still amazed that I can"harness the four winds" long enough to
actually get my boat to move ;-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
P.S. Nordkoster is very very sexy......gets me to thinking about the
Elver I once built and owned.She almost oozed her sensuality were it
not for the cloth and epoxy holding it all in!
--- In bolger@y..., PseudoDion3@a... wrote:
> Another concern of mine regarding the yawl rig -- which in this
> instance I believe to be more aesthetically pleasing than the sloop
--
> is that it seems to introduce an added level of complexity to such a
> a small boat (16' x 6'6"). Since I have no experience in this
regard,
> I would certainly welcome further observations.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dennis
>David,Best reason I can think of is I don't even know where Mahone Bay is.
>
>The MAIB that I just got today has some nice pictures of three (3) LS
>in Mahone Bay. Why weren't you there?
Second best reason is I haven't cut new sails since my wreck this
Summer. I've been under foresail alone for a few months now (nasty
lea helm!)
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
David,
The MAIB that I just got today has some nice pictures of three (3) LS
in Mahone Bay. Why weren't you there?
Peter
The MAIB that I just got today has some nice pictures of three (3) LS
in Mahone Bay. Why weren't you there?
Peter
Another comment on the speed thing. The sloop is only faster to windward, because of its pointing
ability. Once once you come off the wind then the gaff rigs and lugs get quick because they can carry
more sail area with the same heeling moment. Many mid range fiberglass racer cruisers have been
embarrassed by Bolger Square boats once they came off the wind a little. Ask David Ryan who passes
him in LSME.
HJ
ability. Once once you come off the wind then the gaff rigs and lugs get quick because they can carry
more sail area with the same heeling moment. Many mid range fiberglass racer cruisers have been
embarrassed by Bolger Square boats once they came off the wind a little. Ask David Ryan who passes
him in LSME.
HJ
>I personally think that schooners are the most beautiful rig. SchoonersAs it turns out, a small schooner is also surprisingly easy to single-hand!
>under sail just look like a boat ought to look.
In the LSME I cleat the jib and the main and leave the fore to run
free through my hand. The boat is balanced so precisely that in a
gust when I slack the fore, she rounds up well before any undue
healing threatens to knock the boat over. Once this is combined with
a little tiller work, she can be sailed through puffs with very
little upset. Tacking is as easy as a laser, just a quick switch of
fore-sheet and tiller as she goes through stays. Of course as the
wind rises this quickly becomes unmanageable for one person. But in
light air it's dream sailing.
I never really understood what "balance" was about till I started
schooner sailing. Though I haven't sailed a Bolger yawl, I suspect
there's much to recomend them.
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
With respect to smallish boats like the Nord Koster, performance (in
the sense of sailing speed) really isn't the issue. The yawl is more
complicated, but more flexible. It can do some tricks a sloop can't,
such as keeping head to wind on a mooring, and steering itself on
some points of sail. It offers the possibility of a sudden, drastic
reef to jib and mizzen.
And so pretty.
These small wooden boats are labor intensive and very expensive when
professionally built. Every now and then, a builder or designer says
a custom built boat is not more expensive than a stock boat. For a
large enough boat this is perhaps argueable since the custom builder
assumes his quality is top of the line, and compares his prices to
Hinckley rather than Hunter. What is a comparable stock boat to a
Nord Koster? Say a Sea Pearl at $11,300.
Really the only practical way to get yourself a brand new Chebacco or
Nord Koster at a reasonable price is to build her yourself.
Peter
the sense of sailing speed) really isn't the issue. The yawl is more
complicated, but more flexible. It can do some tricks a sloop can't,
such as keeping head to wind on a mooring, and steering itself on
some points of sail. It offers the possibility of a sudden, drastic
reef to jib and mizzen.
And so pretty.
These small wooden boats are labor intensive and very expensive when
professionally built. Every now and then, a builder or designer says
a custom built boat is not more expensive than a stock boat. For a
large enough boat this is perhaps argueable since the custom builder
assumes his quality is top of the line, and compares his prices to
Hinckley rather than Hunter. What is a comparable stock boat to a
Nord Koster? Say a Sea Pearl at $11,300.
Really the only practical way to get yourself a brand new Chebacco or
Nord Koster at a reasonable price is to build her yourself.
Peter
That's true, the most efficient (high lift/low drag) and weatherly
plan has the highest aspect ratio, meaning a short boom and tall
mast. Look at racing boats with a high roach, trying to reach an
elliptical planform (see the Supermarine Spitfire). The tall rig
reaches the higher wind speeds higher up, and twists properly to
match the relative wind angles going up the mast.
But, among other things, a tall rig is complex, expensive, highly
loaded, and hard to build at home of common materials. So, short,
squat (low aspect) sail plans are less efficient and weatherly, but
the rigs are easy to build as low-tech. The split rig gets you the
sail area required for the given boat size with easily realized rigs.
In a split rig, the mizzen sails in the shadow of the main, lowering
its efficiency. Also, the main also tends to clock the flow, such
that the mizzen sets pretty well pinched up, unfortunately. So, the
mizzen is always sheeted harder and cut flat as a board to do any
good.
But, the split rig, whether ketch or yawl, offers lots of practical
advantages. The center's of effort being spread fore and aft, the
mizzen will helm steer, balance, and manage the weather helm. On some
boats (e.g. Micro) the mizzen will auto-helm upwind under some
conditions. And, if it's setup right, with jeefy reefs and all, the
split rig offers a great variety reefing options (or simply amusement
and jobs for the crew).
And, the mizzen is a delight at anchor if your boat is badly
behaved. If you're offshore, your mizzen will hold you to weather
for lunch, rest (or survival?). Once, we arrived at the pass hours
before daybreak but were able relax while quietly backing down all
night at -1/2 knot.
On a big boat, one man really can't deal with a sail much bigger than
about 500-600 sq.ft., so the split rig breaks it into manageable
chunks.
Lastly and most importantly, what's prettier than a little yawl?
Gregg Carlson
plan has the highest aspect ratio, meaning a short boom and tall
mast. Look at racing boats with a high roach, trying to reach an
elliptical planform (see the Supermarine Spitfire). The tall rig
reaches the higher wind speeds higher up, and twists properly to
match the relative wind angles going up the mast.
But, among other things, a tall rig is complex, expensive, highly
loaded, and hard to build at home of common materials. So, short,
squat (low aspect) sail plans are less efficient and weatherly, but
the rigs are easy to build as low-tech. The split rig gets you the
sail area required for the given boat size with easily realized rigs.
In a split rig, the mizzen sails in the shadow of the main, lowering
its efficiency. Also, the main also tends to clock the flow, such
that the mizzen sets pretty well pinched up, unfortunately. So, the
mizzen is always sheeted harder and cut flat as a board to do any
good.
But, the split rig, whether ketch or yawl, offers lots of practical
advantages. The center's of effort being spread fore and aft, the
mizzen will helm steer, balance, and manage the weather helm. On some
boats (e.g. Micro) the mizzen will auto-helm upwind under some
conditions. And, if it's setup right, with jeefy reefs and all, the
split rig offers a great variety reefing options (or simply amusement
and jobs for the crew).
And, the mizzen is a delight at anchor if your boat is badly
behaved. If you're offshore, your mizzen will hold you to weather
for lunch, rest (or survival?). Once, we arrived at the pass hours
before daybreak but were able relax while quietly backing down all
night at -1/2 knot.
On a big boat, one man really can't deal with a sail much bigger than
about 500-600 sq.ft., so the split rig breaks it into manageable
chunks.
Lastly and most importantly, what's prettier than a little yawl?
Gregg Carlson
--- In bolger@y..., Philip Smith <pbs@w...> wrote:
>educate me about the performance advantages and disadvantages
>between a yawl rig and sloop
>Basically a sloop rig is supposed to be the most weatherly (sails
>closest to the eye of the wind). Yawls have an advantage at least
>when used by PCB in that the mizzen, the small sail at the back of
>the boat, can be left standing (up) which helps the boat keep it's
>head (bow) into the wind. This keeps things quieter and helps keep
>the anchor in the mud when anchored.
Peter,
I guess that I am new enough at this game to be too ignorant of
what I understand performance to be or at least too green to be able
to articulate it clearly. In essence, I need someone to tell me so
that I at least have some basis to begin evaluating. Both your and
Peter V's post have gone along way in helping me establish some
foundation for judging. What sparked my question was Bolger's Nord
Koster design that was commissioned by William Clements and can be
seen athttp://www.boatbldr.com/gallery/index.html#koster.This
design can be fitted as either yawl or sloop. I have just initiated
correspondence with Mr. Clements about the sailing characteristics of
the design. So far, our correspondence reveals that his NK may be the
only one built to date -- which amazes me given the fact that she is
a pretty design. However, I indicated that his almost 30K price tag
for a completed boat might be prohibitive for folks like myself whose
annual salary is not much more than that.
Another concern of mine regarding the yawl rig -- which in this
instance I believe to be more aesthetically pleasing than the sloop --
is that it seems to introduce an added level of complexity to such a
a small boat (16' x 6'6"). Since I have no experience in this regard,
I would certainly welcome further observations.
Thanks,
Dennis
I guess that I am new enough at this game to be too ignorant of
what I understand performance to be or at least too green to be able
to articulate it clearly. In essence, I need someone to tell me so
that I at least have some basis to begin evaluating. Both your and
Peter V's post have gone along way in helping me establish some
foundation for judging. What sparked my question was Bolger's Nord
Koster design that was commissioned by William Clements and can be
seen athttp://www.boatbldr.com/gallery/index.html#koster.This
design can be fitted as either yawl or sloop. I have just initiated
correspondence with Mr. Clements about the sailing characteristics of
the design. So far, our correspondence reveals that his NK may be the
only one built to date -- which amazes me given the fact that she is
a pretty design. However, I indicated that his almost 30K price tag
for a completed boat might be prohibitive for folks like myself whose
annual salary is not much more than that.
Another concern of mine regarding the yawl rig -- which in this
instance I believe to be more aesthetically pleasing than the sloop --
is that it seems to introduce an added level of complexity to such a
a small boat (16' x 6'6"). Since I have no experience in this regard,
I would certainly welcome further observations.
Thanks,
Dennis
--- In bolger@y..., ellengaest@b... wrote:
> Dennis,
> It all depends on what your understanding of performance
is.If
> it is all out speed,just look at the racing circuit and all you see
> are sloop rigged and the odd cutter.However,there are other ways to
> look at performance especially as regards your own sense
> esthetics/romance.Also,the designer can set things up to maximize
> different rigs on different hulls.I have always enjoyed the use of
> more then one mast and think that yawls are the way to go for
spirited
> all-around use.The mizzen is proportionately so small as to make
> little difference in real driving power.It helps balance things out
> nicely through a broad range of conditions,while you focus on
sailing
> the boat like a sloop.As conditions become rough and one is forced
to
> reef,the little mizzen begins to play a bigger role in keeping
things
> all balanced especially as it requires relatively little attention.
> I suppose that there have been books written on the science
of
> sails/rigs which are just full of crafty little bits of
info.Whether
> one can actually"feel"all of these reported rig differences once
out
> on the water is something else altogther,unless you load the boat
up
> with fancy electronic measuring devices, since too many variables
are
> present to confuse the issue for mere mortals.In the
> not-independantly-wealthy category that most of us actually live
in,we
> have the pleasure of getting to use mostly small boats,which is
good
> for us as,since we can play with all sorts of different rigs for
> relatively small bucks and never have to worry much about exceeding
4
> or 5 knots on good days.Enjoying oneself for a few hours on the
water
> in something of our own building is priceless and the daydreams are
> free!
> O.K.,that's it for my non-scientific attempt at an
> answer.Hopefully more info will pour out from the more experienced
> forum memebers.
> Sincerely,
> Peter Lenihan,happy yawl owner.................
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., PseudoDion3@a... wrote:
> > I would appreciate it if someone could educate me about the
> > performance advantages and disadvantages between a yawl rig and
> sloop
> > rig.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dennis Marshall
I don't really have much new information on this thread, but I would
frame the response a little differently.
To change a sloop to a yawl, the rig must be reduced slightly, say by
shortening the boom. The mizzen will be bigger than the sail area
lost, but it does not add drive in proportion. In addition, it adds
weight and wind drag (and cost).
Based on a quick look at the PHRF rating book, the difference on the
race course is very small. The Bristol 32, Pearson 35 and Pearson 39
all carry just about the same rating with either rig. Of course, PHRF
ratings are often just blind stabs for pure cruising boats. But the
difference in performance will be negligible for cruising purposes.
Peter
frame the response a little differently.
To change a sloop to a yawl, the rig must be reduced slightly, say by
shortening the boom. The mizzen will be bigger than the sail area
lost, but it does not add drive in proportion. In addition, it adds
weight and wind drag (and cost).
Based on a quick look at the PHRF rating book, the difference on the
race course is very small. The Bristol 32, Pearson 35 and Pearson 39
all carry just about the same rating with either rig. Of course, PHRF
ratings are often just blind stabs for pure cruising boats. But the
difference in performance will be negligible for cruising purposes.
Peter
Dennis,
It all depends on what your understanding of performance is.If
it is all out speed,just look at the racing circuit and all you see
are sloop rigged and the odd cutter.However,there are other ways to
look at performance especially as regards your own sense
esthetics/romance.Also,the designer can set things up to maximize
different rigs on different hulls.I have always enjoyed the use of
more then one mast and think that yawls are the way to go for spirited
all-around use.The mizzen is proportionately so small as to make
little difference in real driving power.It helps balance things out
nicely through a broad range of conditions,while you focus on sailing
the boat like a sloop.As conditions become rough and one is forced to
reef,the little mizzen begins to play a bigger role in keeping things
all balanced especially as it requires relatively little attention.
I suppose that there have been books written on the science of
sails/rigs which are just full of crafty little bits of info.Whether
one can actually"feel"all of these reported rig differences once out
on the water is something else altogther,unless you load the boat up
with fancy electronic measuring devices, since too many variables are
present to confuse the issue for mere mortals.In the
not-independantly-wealthy category that most of us actually live in,we
have the pleasure of getting to use mostly small boats,which is good
for us as,since we can play with all sorts of different rigs for
relatively small bucks and never have to worry much about exceeding 4
or 5 knots on good days.Enjoying oneself for a few hours on the water
in something of our own building is priceless and the daydreams are
free!
O.K.,that's it for my non-scientific attempt at an
answer.Hopefully more info will pour out from the more experienced
forum memebers.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,happy yawl owner.................
It all depends on what your understanding of performance is.If
it is all out speed,just look at the racing circuit and all you see
are sloop rigged and the odd cutter.However,there are other ways to
look at performance especially as regards your own sense
esthetics/romance.Also,the designer can set things up to maximize
different rigs on different hulls.I have always enjoyed the use of
more then one mast and think that yawls are the way to go for spirited
all-around use.The mizzen is proportionately so small as to make
little difference in real driving power.It helps balance things out
nicely through a broad range of conditions,while you focus on sailing
the boat like a sloop.As conditions become rough and one is forced to
reef,the little mizzen begins to play a bigger role in keeping things
all balanced especially as it requires relatively little attention.
I suppose that there have been books written on the science of
sails/rigs which are just full of crafty little bits of info.Whether
one can actually"feel"all of these reported rig differences once out
on the water is something else altogther,unless you load the boat up
with fancy electronic measuring devices, since too many variables are
present to confuse the issue for mere mortals.In the
not-independantly-wealthy category that most of us actually live in,we
have the pleasure of getting to use mostly small boats,which is good
for us as,since we can play with all sorts of different rigs for
relatively small bucks and never have to worry much about exceeding 4
or 5 knots on good days.Enjoying oneself for a few hours on the water
in something of our own building is priceless and the daydreams are
free!
O.K.,that's it for my non-scientific attempt at an
answer.Hopefully more info will pour out from the more experienced
forum memebers.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,happy yawl owner.................
--- In bolger@y..., PseudoDion3@a... wrote:
> I would appreciate it if someone could educate me about the
> performance advantages and disadvantages between a yawl rig and
sloop
> rig.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dennis Marshall
At 04:19 AM 11/17/01 +0000, you wrote:
buy one of Bolger's books. I think they are up to 105 Small Boat Rigs,
after having started at 100.
Basically a sloop rig is supposed to be the most weatherly (sails closest
to the eye of the wind). Yawls have an advantage at least when used by PCB
in that the mizzen, the small sail at the back of the boat, can be left
standing (up) which helps the boat keep it's head (bow) into the wind. This
keeps things quieter and helps keep the anchor in the mud when anchored.
I personally think that schooners are the most beautiful rig. Schooners
under sail just look like a boat ought to look.
You can get the current 10? Small Boat Rigs from PCB & Friends at the
bottom of this message. Send 'em a fax if you are in a hurry and can get a
fax in return or send 'em a letter. I'm sorry I don't know how much the
current edition costs.
Phil Smith
>I would appreciate it if someone could educate me about theIf you want to learn more than you ever needed to know about rigs, you can
>performance advantages and disadvantages between a yawl rig and sloop
>rig.
buy one of Bolger's books. I think they are up to 105 Small Boat Rigs,
after having started at 100.
Basically a sloop rig is supposed to be the most weatherly (sails closest
to the eye of the wind). Yawls have an advantage at least when used by PCB
in that the mizzen, the small sail at the back of the boat, can be left
standing (up) which helps the boat keep it's head (bow) into the wind. This
keeps things quieter and helps keep the anchor in the mud when anchored.
I personally think that schooners are the most beautiful rig. Schooners
under sail just look like a boat ought to look.
You can get the current 10? Small Boat Rigs from PCB & Friends at the
bottom of this message. Send 'em a fax if you are in a hurry and can get a
fax in return or send 'em a letter. I'm sorry I don't know how much the
current edition costs.
Phil Smith
I would appreciate it if someone could educate me about the
performance advantages and disadvantages between a yawl rig and sloop
rig.
Thanks,
Dennis Marshall
performance advantages and disadvantages between a yawl rig and sloop
rig.
Thanks,
Dennis Marshall