Re: Epoxy v polyester

--- In bolger@y..., Bruce Fountain <B_Fountain@M...> wrote:

> wattleweedooseeds@b... wrote:
> > G'day bruce, I'm using west system ,Bought it at 'The fibreglass
> > shop ' in Fremantle . Last 5 kg batch cost $72

They are open from 9 till 2 (got to pick up kids) cash sales only.
neeresst EFTPOS at nearby shopping centre. Good prices on cloth ,
tape and tools. Excellent advice. Every few years I check his prices
and I've yet to see someone beat hime . Tell him the land sailor fron
kalgoorlie sent you.. I've bought from him exclusively since 1984.>

> That sounds pretty good for west (for those in the US, 1 AU$ buys
> about 50 US cents). I must check them out - they are just down the
> road from me.
>
> > I've seen Bote Cote advertized but
> > never been able to find it.
>
> Chris Gaudet's (Carrington Rd Hilton) sell Bote Cote, but it is
> not cheap. I am using EP (I think? From Fibreglass Australia)
> which cost me about $24/kg, but I can buy a 1kg tin whereas most
> places will bleed you white for small quantities.
>
> > The trouble with freighting to kalgoorlie
> > is getting the goods in fit condition. If you insure it yuo

double

> > the price.
>
> I see the problem. Not much demand for marine products in

Kalgoorlie.

>

did you know that kalgoorlie has the highest registered boats per
capita in WA and 3rd in Australia!!!, but your right ,non demand I
know of 1 other person "building a boat" after 2 years he has'nt cut
his plywood yet.

> > since this thread began one of the comments (on another list)

was

> > that given the extra strength , and stiffnes Ive built into the

> > hulls it may just be a case of sand and paint with no glass.

this

> > has worked throughout history so why not now.
>
> I would go for unglassed with decent paint rather than polyester
> glassed, especially if you are keeping it on a trailer (which you
> are, presumably). Check it over and touch it up regularly and you
> should be fine. Is this your skooner?
>
> Bruce

Sure is, If santa sends me some ply I hope to get to the Old Gaffers
regatta in April. If not I'll convert the June Bug to a schooner and
take that!! might need a crew ???, for the JB as no- one willl sail
with me since I discovered it sails alot higher to windward if you
lay it on the leeward gunwales!!, and thats with 1 mast , 2 sails ,
add a main and flying jib on bowsprit for the scooner version.
Thanks to all for your input on my question, I'm off to Dulux
tommorrow to see what misstints they've got!
cheers Paul

wattleweedooseeds@...wrote:

> G'day bruce, I'm using west system ,Bought it at 'The fibreglass
> shop ' in Fremantle . Last 5 kg batch cost $72

That sounds pretty good for west (for those in the US, 1 AU$ buys
about 50 US cents). I must check them out - they are just down the
road from me.

> I've seen Bote Cote advertized but
> never been able to find it.

Chris Gaudet's (Carrington Rd Hilton) sell Bote Cote, but it is
not cheap. I am using EP (I think? From Fibreglass Australia)
which cost me about $24/kg, but I can buy a 1kg tin whereas most
places will bleed you white for small quantities.

> The trouble with freighting to kalgoorlie
> is getting the goods in fit condition. If you insure it yuo double
> the price.

I see the problem. Not much demand for marine products in Kalgoorlie.

> since this thread began one of the comments (on another list) was
> that given the extra strength , and stiffnes Ive built into the se
> hulls it may just be a case of sand and paint with no glass. this
> has worked throughout history so why not now.

I would go for unglassed with decent paint rather than polyester
glassed, especially if you are keeping it on a trailer (which you
are, presumably). Check it over and touch it up regularly and you
should be fine. Is this your skooner?

Bruce

Isn't the original question from some place where
there is no RAKA, and the crux of the mater is will
the Poly work, not is there something better. The
problem is that most of us don't know. I got into
this 22 years ago, and have had no reason to
experiment with poly and glass, though many great
boats have been built with this technology. I never
learned how to do it. Those who did, like Jim Brown,
fled to epoxy as soon as they could.

--- David Ryan <david@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
I will say "Aye" to this as well. 
 
I've been around polyester all my life. Never liked
it, but never 
knew anything different. 
 
I am nothing but pleased with the way the Raka epoxy
has performed on 
the LSME. Just pulled her out of the lake after 12
months of 
continuous exposure and she looks great. Any and all
damage is due to 

_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com

since this thread began one of the
comments (on another list) was 
that given the extra strength , and stiffnes Ive built
into the se 
hulls it may just be a case of sand and
paint with no glass. this 
has worked throughout history so why not now. 
cheers Paul 

It is easy to forget what things cost outside of NA.

The main advantage of sheathing is the prottection it
gives the boat against rotting out (which unless a
bunch of other details are dealt with can be
illusory). When done comprehensively you have the
longest lasting, lowest maintenance craft going. If
you live aboard or even arround, and suffer no
accidents, transfers etc... to impede maintenance,
this degree of protection can often be of most
importance to the cassual user, since you can go about
your business for a years without having to think of
the boat. A mixed blessing.

_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com

I will say "Aye" to this as well.

I've been around polyester all my life. Never liked it, but never
knew anything different.

I am nothing but pleased with the way the Raka epoxy has performed on
the LSME. Just pulled her out of the lake after 12 months of
continuous exposure and she looks great. Any and all damage is due to
either hard use or misconstruction. The bottom and topsides (epoxy,
glass, and porch paint) look nearly as good as the day she left the
yard last year.

>I second the motion. I've used Raka and it works well for me.
>Polyester peels off too easily. I removed the polyester tapes from a
>boat I had by lifting the edge with a chisel, grabbing with pliers,
>and pulling. I had pieces a couple of feet long, possibly longer but
>I don't remember. If you want to save bucks, maybe lighter glass would
>still stabilize the surface. It will soak up less epoxy that way. If
>you use epoxy, be sure to wash off the blush (water with a sponge
>seems to work fine) and rough it up before putting more on a surface
>you've already done. And make sure the mix is reasonably accurate
>(like within 10%, maybe). I am currently trying to decide what to do
>with this hull I took over from another guy in mid project. A lot more
>poorly mixed, poorly sticking epoxy done over smooth surfaces than I
>would like. May be easier to wrap it up quick, use close to shore, and
>do another one right.
>--- In bolger@y..., richard@s... wrote:
>> Buy your epoxy from www.raka.com or www.fgci.com, you can get it for
>> around $30 a gallon. While still a little more expensive than
>> polyester, the advantages make up for the increased cost.
>>
>>
>> --- In bolger@y..., wattleweedooseeds@b... wrote:
>> > question . getting ready to glass a large wooden hull and
>> > discovered the new price of epoxy resin. Polyester is now abuot
>> 1/4
>> > the price .
>> > I've used epoxy glue throughout, but can i use polyester to glass
>> > the hull . the surface is all wood with the occasional epoxy
>> covered
>> > screw. yuor thoughts and experiences would be appreciated.
>> > I'll be off now for a quick Shiff before I get back into the
>> > sanding.
>> > They say if you dont shiff youll dye
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

C.E.P.
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296

I second the motion. I've used Raka and it works well for me.
Polyester peels off too easily. I removed the polyester tapes from a
boat I had by lifting the edge with a chisel, grabbing with pliers,
and pulling. I had pieces a couple of feet long, possibly longer but
I don't remember. If you want to save bucks, maybe lighter glass would
still stabilize the surface. It will soak up less epoxy that way. If
you use epoxy, be sure to wash off the blush (water with a sponge
seems to work fine) and rough it up before putting more on a surface
you've already done. And make sure the mix is reasonably accurate
(like within 10%, maybe). I am currently trying to decide what to do
with this hull I took over from another guy in mid project. A lot more
poorly mixed, poorly sticking epoxy done over smooth surfaces than I
would like. May be easier to wrap it up quick, use close to shore, and
do another one right.

--- In bolger@y..., richard@s... wrote:
> Buy your epoxy from www.raka.com or www.fgci.com, you can get it for
> around $30 a gallon. While still a little more expensive than
> polyester, the advantages make up for the increased cost.
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., wattleweedooseeds@b... wrote:
> > question . getting ready to glass a large wooden hull and
> > discovered the new price of epoxy resin. Polyester is now abuot
> 1/4
> > the price .
> > I've used epoxy glue throughout, but can i use polyester to glass
> > the hull . the surface is all wood with the occasional epoxy
> covered
> > screw. yuor thoughts and experiences would be appreciated.
> > I'll be off now for a quick Shiff before I get back into the
> > sanding.
> > They say if you dont shiff youll dye

--- In bolger@y..., Bruce Fountain <B_Fountain@M...> wrote:

> wattleweedooseeds@b... wrote:
> > question . getting ready to glass a large wooden hull and
> > discovered the new price of epoxy resin. Polyester is now abuot

1/4

> > the price .
>
> What resin are you using, and what are you paying?
>
> Bruce Fountain
> brucef@e..

G'day bruce, I'm using west system ,Bought it at 'The fibreglass
shop ' in Fremantle . Last 5 kg batch cost $72 . One marine shop
nearer to perth wanted $ 136. I've seen Bote Cote advertized but
never been able to find it. The trouble with freighting to kalgoorlie
is getting the goods in fit condition. If you insure it yuo double
the price. Locally i can buy International stuff . Its a glue only .
at about $ 75 a tin this is about 5 times the cost of WEST if mixed.
since this thread began one of the comments (on another list) was
that given the extra strength , and stiffnes Ive built into the se
hulls it may just be a case of sand and paint with no glass. this
has worked throughout history so why not now.
cheers Paul

wattleweedooseeds@...wrote:

> question . getting ready to glass a large wooden hull and
> discovered the new price of epoxy resin. Polyester is now abuot 1/4
> the price .

What resin are you using, and what are you paying?

Bruce Fountain
brucef@...

I would never use Poly, but there have been a lot of
boats built successfuly with it. For the Payson's of
the world, one advantage was the ability to keep
working, no waiting hours for it to cure, and probably
also the better wet out (lots of nice epoxy these days
for that). I saw a Payson LT Dory once, and it was
imaculate, really beuatiful. Given that he was
getting those results, why would he change? The big
thing that caused the change I imagine was the
difference in scantlings possible. Those older boats
had a lot of unecesary frames and bulkheads. Of
course on larger boats that are going to need a lot of
bulkheads etc... anyway...

If you do use POly , you need to have two different
kinds. A wax curing type for the top coat, and a
laminating type for the lower coats.

The hard thing with Bolger boats is figuring out what
they mean. In the last 20 years there have been a lot
of inovations in boat building that make the boxy
shapes questionable economically. You can design, cut
out and mount the frames for a baltec, or strip boat
in seconds (vs instant), using either cad cam, or a
system like master molds. you have a higher cost for
the strips, but other than that a lot of the other
materials are the same. so at the end of the day for
a slightly higher materials cost, you could have a
boat worth 100K plus vs one worth the cost of scrap.
Given that what do you do? The absolute minimum of
material cost, just latex over D-fir? Its hard to
make it work out in the 21 century. Of course I just
like boxes.
---richard@...wrote:

_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com

Buy your epoxy from www.raka.com or www.fgci.com, you can get it for
around $30 a gallon. While still a little more expensive than
polyester, the advantages make up for the increased cost.

--- In bolger@y..., wattleweedooseeds@b... wrote:
> question . getting ready to glass a large wooden hull and
> discovered the new price of epoxy resin. Polyester is now abuot
1/4
> the price .
> I've used epoxy glue throughout, but can i use polyester to glass
> the hull . the surface is all wood with the occasional epoxy
covered
> screw. yuor thoughts and experiences would be appreciated.
> I'll be off now for a quick Shiff before I get back into the
> sanding.
> They say if you dont shiff youll dye

I glassed the bottom of my Windsprint w/ polyester. ( No
problems yet. )

But by the time I added in the cost of all the expendables,
the buckets, rollers, brushes, gloves, thinners and papers,
for that size boat epoxy wouldn't have come to much more.

Mark

wattleweedooseeds@...wrote:
snip

>getting ready to glass a large wooden hull and
> discovered the new price of epoxy resin. Polyester is now
> abuot 1/4 the price .

--- In bolger@y..., wattleweedooseeds@b... wrote:

>"getting ready to glass a large wooden hull" Apparently you have

already invested a good amount of cash and work in a "large" hull.
Don't chintz now. Mr Payson has advocated polyester resin in the past
but my recall is that this was for what was essentially cheap
construction where not a lot of labor is invested. For "Bobcat" he
specifies epoxy.
Bob Chamberland

--- In bolger@y..., wattleweedooseeds@b... wrote:

>"getting ready to glass a large wooden hull" Apparently you have

I've told this story on the list before, so I'll keep it short!

My only experience with polyester sheathing is covering a cedar strip canoe.
And I've covered that canoe three times now -- the first two (polyester)
separated from the hull after 5 years or so. The third (epoxy) is still
holding on.

The polyester was (a) cheap, and (b) easy to get off when you have to
replace it -- as you will.

Epoxy was expensive but hasn't delaminated yet.

Jamie Orr

-----Original Message-----
From:wattleweedooseeds@...
[mailto:wattleweedooseeds@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 4:36 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Epoxy v polyester

question . getting ready to glass a large wooden hull and
discovered the new price of epoxy resin. Polyester is now abuot 1/4
the price .
I've used epoxy glue throughout, but can i use polyester to glass
the hull . the surface is all wood with the occasional epoxy covered
screw. yuor thoughts and experiences would be appreciated.
I'll be off now for a quick Shiff before I get back into the
sanding.
They say if you dont shiff youll dye

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

My catboat is ply with polyester and glass overlay.
State of the art when I built it. Bad idea. Many
hairline cracks. Polyester is brittle and cracks when
the ply expands and contracts at a different rate.
Some folks have had success stapling every couple of
inches. I'll go with expoxy every time.

---wattleweedooseeds@...wrote:

> question . getting ready to glass a large wooden
> hull and
> discovered the new price of epoxy resin. Polyester
> is now abuot 1/4
> the price .
> I've used epoxy glue throughout, but can i use
> polyester to glass
> the hull . the surface is all wood with the
> occasional epoxy covered
> screw. yuor thoughts and experiences would be
> appreciated.
> I'll be off now for a quick Shiff before I get
> back into the
> sanding.
> They say if you dont shiff youll dye
>
>

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Paul,
It almost breaks your heart,doesn't it,such a price difference?
Seeing how Payson,not to mention thousands of others, have apparently
used polyester with success,then I would figure you cannot go too
wrong.A few things to consider however might go as follows:a)
polyester does not really stick to epoxy.You may end up with little
pockets of air(later on water) over those epoxy covered holes.b)
how stable is the surface you intend on covering?If it is anything
like BC fir plywood, which checks like crazy,you may have to go with
more then one laminate of cloth to prevent checking.c)is the boat in
question intended to be in the light category?If not,you could load up
with a strong enough laminate to almost make the wood structure
redundant.d)how much experience do you actually have working with
polyester resins over relatively large areas?Your ability to slow the
cure down as much as possible to allow maximum penetration of the
resin into the cloth and wood,over a broad surface,will help ensure a
sound finish.e)how much is already invested into the boat and what
proportion of the total cost would an epoxy job represent.f) are you
building the proverbial gold plater or a knock'em down lets fun sort
of boat? I think we know the way to go for a gold plater.........
Ultimately,your wallet and long term expectations for this boat
will be your guide.Its your money and time Paul.Good luck to ya!!

Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,from the chilly shores of the St.Lawrence...........

--- In bolger@y..., wattleweedooseeds@b... wrote:
> question . getting ready to glass a large wooden hull and
> discovered the new price of epoxy resin. Polyester is now abuot 1/4
> the price .
> I've used epoxy glue throughout, but can i use polyester to glass
> the hull . the surface is all wood with the occasional epoxy
covered
> screw. yuor thoughts and experiences would be appreciated.
> I'll be off now for a quick Shiff before I get back into the
> sanding.
> They say if you dont shiff youll dye

question . getting ready to glass a large wooden hull and
discovered the new price of epoxy resin. Polyester is now abuot 1/4
the price .
I've used epoxy glue throughout, but can i use polyester to glass
the hull . the surface is all wood with the occasional epoxy covered
screw. yuor thoughts and experiences would be appreciated.
I'll be off now for a quick Shiff before I get back into the
sanding.
They say if you dont shiff youll dye