Re: Bolger plan detail
The detail on Bolger plans varies depending on various things, only
some of which I can guess at. I think the major factor is the
customer for whom the plan was drawn. A plan made for a particular
experienced boatbuilder has less detail than one made for the
general, amateur, boatbuilding public. For example, Black Skimmer has
52 items in the key, and the larger Skillygallee has 28.
Many small detail items were omitted from the plans for the Cynthia
J., for example, leeboard pendants, a stop to limit the travel of the
drop-down rudder blade, etc.
For a long time, Bolger charged such small prices for small boat
plans that there was not way that he was making much money from them.
He had to limit the time he spent in their creation.
PHV
some of which I can guess at. I think the major factor is the
customer for whom the plan was drawn. A plan made for a particular
experienced boatbuilder has less detail than one made for the
general, amateur, boatbuilding public. For example, Black Skimmer has
52 items in the key, and the larger Skillygallee has 28.
Many small detail items were omitted from the plans for the Cynthia
J., for example, leeboard pendants, a stop to limit the travel of the
drop-down rudder blade, etc.
For a long time, Bolger charged such small prices for small boat
plans that there was not way that he was making much money from them.
He had to limit the time he spent in their creation.
PHV
In a message dated 11/28/01 6:38:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
proaconstrictor@...writes:
proaconstrictor@...writes:
> mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I agree about the detail, its relative. There is a
big difference between offsets, and plans for the home
builder market. I don't have any problem with the
level of detail in the Bolger plans, but they strike
me as scetchy compared to others that have come with
100 page manuals. My point is just that when you
compare what is there, to what is there when you
finish a boat, no two boats will be alike, so it gets
hard to claim authorship for the boat. Think of the
acceptable realm of approaches from anchorfast nails
and latex, through to fibreglass encapsulation etc...
Bolger was kind of getting at the same thing it seems
to me when he mentioned the fact that one day he
realised that while making a boat, a particular
re-enforcement was necesary. He went out to the yard,
and there it was. the workers had inserted it without
it being on the plans, because they knew how it should
be, We all operate on the same basis - with luck.
_______________________________________________________
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big difference between offsets, and plans for the home
builder market. I don't have any problem with the
level of detail in the Bolger plans, but they strike
me as scetchy compared to others that have come with
100 page manuals. My point is just that when you
compare what is there, to what is there when you
finish a boat, no two boats will be alike, so it gets
hard to claim authorship for the boat. Think of the
acceptable realm of approaches from anchorfast nails
and latex, through to fibreglass encapsulation etc...
Bolger was kind of getting at the same thing it seems
to me when he mentioned the fact that one day he
realised that while making a boat, a particular
re-enforcement was necesary. He went out to the yard,
and there it was. the workers had inserted it without
it being on the plans, because they knew how it should
be, We all operate on the same basis - with luck.
_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com
I do not know which plans you own but I beg to differ on the question
of detail. Having built a Bolger SURF and MICRO,which come with
detailed instructions,it would be difficult to imagine more detail
short of having the designer looking over your shoulder and doodling
details as you build.
Even my latest plans from Bolger for his WINDERMERE design are loaded
with details,you just have to use your scale ruler to realize how
much.
Bolger does however often make the distinction between a design that
is in the "instant boat" spirit and one where it is assumed the
builder has done this sort of thing before and does not require too
much hand-holding.
I have built other boats(none Bolger) where all you got was the table
of off-sets,a construction detail or two,and the sail plan.....all on
just two sheets of drafting paper.
I do not want to start a mud throwing contest here but check out what
happened a couple of years ago vis-à-vis the AS-29 and another
designers... err.... aaa.... "borrowing" of some details.All the
juicy details can be found in our archieves including PCB&F response.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan.................
of detail. Having built a Bolger SURF and MICRO,which come with
detailed instructions,it would be difficult to imagine more detail
short of having the designer looking over your shoulder and doodling
details as you build.
Even my latest plans from Bolger for his WINDERMERE design are loaded
with details,you just have to use your scale ruler to realize how
much.
Bolger does however often make the distinction between a design that
is in the "instant boat" spirit and one where it is assumed the
builder has done this sort of thing before and does not require too
much hand-holding.
I have built other boats(none Bolger) where all you got was the table
of off-sets,a construction detail or two,and the sail plan.....all on
just two sheets of drafting paper.
I do not want to start a mud throwing contest here but check out what
happened a couple of years ago vis-à-vis the AS-29 and another
designers... err.... aaa.... "borrowing" of some details.All the
juicy details can be found in our archieves including PCB&F response.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan.................
--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
Phil's plans are not
> all that detailled, and any boat made from them is
> likely unlike any other, is it even a "Micro"?.
>
> Most designers know that the claims they make on use
> are not sustainable. And what claims are being made?
This is not a simple question. There are different
views on what is required under the law. And even
then, the whole intelectual property issue is under
massive revision. One is tempted to say that if the
nail was a new idea it would not be in general use.
Forget about using the word "sharpie" .
With plans you can come at it from various positions.
Some would say the only copyright applies to the
drawings themselves (assuming no novel new stuff). In
that sense marketing the drawing is the one area where
copyright applies (to copies). Phil's plans are not
all that detailled, and any boat made from them is
likely unlike any other, is it even a "Micro"?.
Most designers know that the claims they make on use
are not sustainable. And what claims are being made?
It can't be assumed to be the same for every designer.
Some say you can only make one boat, some say only
one boat to the original purchaser. To my knowledge,
the PCB plans I have don't specify any use. They
don't say only one boat may be built. I don't have
any PC&F plans yet. Payson made a point of marketing
some of his plans through books, which provided all
the necesary details, he recomended the plans as an
assist to building, and didn't say that any royalty
was owed anyone, if the boats were built from the
book.
I am sure we all want to do the right thing, and in
addition, we probably all want to use the designer's
name when it comes to selling the boat or insurance.
All I would say is that the issues aren't that clear.
is somehow wrong
marketable product not having yet<BR>
fulfilled the contract inherent in their original issue
_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com
views on what is required under the law. And even
then, the whole intelectual property issue is under
massive revision. One is tempted to say that if the
nail was a new idea it would not be in general use.
Forget about using the word "sharpie" .
With plans you can come at it from various positions.
Some would say the only copyright applies to the
drawings themselves (assuming no novel new stuff). In
that sense marketing the drawing is the one area where
copyright applies (to copies). Phil's plans are not
all that detailled, and any boat made from them is
likely unlike any other, is it even a "Micro"?.
Most designers know that the claims they make on use
are not sustainable. And what claims are being made?
It can't be assumed to be the same for every designer.
Some say you can only make one boat, some say only
one boat to the original purchaser. To my knowledge,
the PCB plans I have don't specify any use. They
don't say only one boat may be built. I don't have
any PC&F plans yet. Payson made a point of marketing
some of his plans through books, which provided all
the necesary details, he recomended the plans as an
assist to building, and didn't say that any royalty
was owed anyone, if the boats were built from the
book.
I am sure we all want to do the right thing, and in
addition, we probably all want to use the designer's
name when it comes to selling the boat or insurance.
All I would say is that the issues aren't that clear.
>So is it your opinion that selling plans from whichno boat has ever been built<BR>
is somehow wrong
>It is my opinion that until the *one* boat is<BR>built from those plans they are a viable and
marketable product not having yet<BR>
fulfilled the contract inherent in their original issue
_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com
Chris wrote:
Yes, but oddly enough, even boatbuilders know the difference between
"legal" and "right" or "good" or "fair" or "desirable" or "good for
boatbuilding".
This practice is legal, but none of those other things.
==================
So is it your opinion that selling plans from which no boat has ever been built
is somehow wrong? What would make this situation any different then selling
pre-owned books, CD's, DVD's (not having been copied) or really any other
pre-owned item? Almost all plans I've purchased (far too many) have inluded the
right to build *one* boat from those set of plans unless other arrangements have
been made with the designer. It is my opinion that until the *one* boat is
built from those plans they are a viable and marketable product not having yet
fulfilled the contract inherent in their original issue. Nowhere have I ever
seen the statement that only one boat may be built by the *original* purchaser.
Respectfully,
Les Lampman
Whidbey Island, Washington (State)
USA
Yes, but oddly enough, even boatbuilders know the difference between
"legal" and "right" or "good" or "fair" or "desirable" or "good for
boatbuilding".
This practice is legal, but none of those other things.
==================
So is it your opinion that selling plans from which no boat has ever been built
is somehow wrong? What would make this situation any different then selling
pre-owned books, CD's, DVD's (not having been copied) or really any other
pre-owned item? Almost all plans I've purchased (far too many) have inluded the
right to build *one* boat from those set of plans unless other arrangements have
been made with the designer. It is my opinion that until the *one* boat is
built from those plans they are a viable and marketable product not having yet
fulfilled the contract inherent in their original issue. Nowhere have I ever
seen the statement that only one boat may be built by the *original* purchaser.
Respectfully,
Les Lampman
Whidbey Island, Washington (State)
USA
In bolger@y..., "Pete Staehling" <staehpj1@h...> wrote:
"legal" and "right" or "good" or "fair" or "desirable" or "good for
boatbuilding".
This practice is legal, but none of those other things.
> Be that as it may. It is perfectly legal to buy or sell plans thatYes, but oddly enough, even boatbuilders know the difference between
> have not been used to build a boat. Right?
"legal" and "right" or "good" or "fair" or "desirable" or "good for
boatbuilding".
This practice is legal, but none of those other things.
Yeah... I assume anyone who built the boat would want to keep the
plans as a reference. I think Mr. Bolger deserves money for his
services like everyone. On the other hand, I am sure there are a
lot of people, like me, who own far more plans than will ever use
them.
Thanks.
plans as a reference. I think Mr. Bolger deserves money for his
services like everyone. On the other hand, I am sure there are a
lot of people, like me, who own far more plans than will ever use
them.
Thanks.
Bryan, I have a set of unused Micro plans that I would sell. It is my
understanding that in purchasing the plans, you would get full
support from PCB in regard to any questions during your build. If you
are interested, contact me via private email.
Dennis Marshall
P.S. My apologies to the Micrologists on the list. I have decided not
to join your number.
understanding that in purchasing the plans, you would get full
support from PCB in regard to any questions during your build. If you
are interested, contact me via private email.
Dennis Marshall
P.S. My apologies to the Micrologists on the list. I have decided not
to join your number.
--- In bolger@y..., king@c... wrote:
> Want to buy used set of Bolget Micro plans that include navigator
> cabin.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bryan
I'm sure it was a typo: you obviously meant UNused.
I've got a set, but I've also got a ballast casting, all the spars and a set
of new sails for a Micro sitting in my garage. They will become a boat in a
few years, I'm certain.
Why not send PCB a fax to inquire about the current price? I think I paid
$150.
John Bell <><
Kennesaw, GA
http://jmbell.home.mindspring.com/boatyard.htm
I've got a set, but I've also got a ballast casting, all the spars and a set
of new sails for a Micro sitting in my garage. They will become a boat in a
few years, I'm certain.
Why not send PCB a fax to inquire about the current price? I think I paid
$150.
John Bell <><
Kennesaw, GA
http://jmbell.home.mindspring.com/boatyard.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: <king@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 6:51 PM
Subject: [bolger] micronavigator plans wanted
| Want to buy used set of Bolget Micro plans that include navigator
| cabin.
|
--- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
have not been used to build a boat. Right?
Pete
> If you are purchasing a "used" set of plans, then you are denyingBe that as it may. It is perfectly legal to buy or sell plans that
> the artist his commision
have not been used to build a boat. Right?
Pete
Bryan,
Not to open up a can of worms on this web site, but the simplest
solution and the honorable thing to do is to send Mr. Bolger the
money for the plans.
If you are purchasing a "used" set of plans, then you are denying
the artist his commision. This is how designers, playwrites,
musicians, and artists make their living. Don't deny them their next
meal in order to save yourself $20. It is not worth it.
Ok, I am off the soap box. Sorry for the rant.
David Jost
"enjoying a great day of building with my Micro "Firefly". New
companionway boards, and mahogany handrails."
Not to open up a can of worms on this web site, but the simplest
solution and the honorable thing to do is to send Mr. Bolger the
money for the plans.
If you are purchasing a "used" set of plans, then you are denying
the artist his commision. This is how designers, playwrites,
musicians, and artists make their living. Don't deny them their next
meal in order to save yourself $20. It is not worth it.
Ok, I am off the soap box. Sorry for the rant.
David Jost
"enjoying a great day of building with my Micro "Firefly". New
companionway boards, and mahogany handrails."
--- In bolger@y..., king@c... wrote:
> Want to buy used set of Bolget Micro plans that include navigator
> cabin.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bryan
Want to buy used set of Bolget Micro plans that include navigator
cabin.
Thanks
Bryan
cabin.
Thanks
Bryan