Re: [bolger] Re: Plan Resale
Thomas, what comes after "(Snip)"? Inquiring minds
want to know. ;)<
I can imagine. Nothing so scandalous was snipped, but
I am not going to be the conduit for it.
______________________________________________________
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want to know. ;)<
I can imagine. Nothing so scandalous was snipped, but
I am not going to be the conduit for it.
______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
>.................................We continue to serviceThat must be a change in policy. We've always been told that if
> plans from Common Sense Designs, but it is now several
> years since we withdrew CSD's rights to sell our plans
> after... (Snip).
bought from CSD/CSB, then PCB&F wouldn't help in any way.
Thomas, what comes after "(Snip)"? Inquiring minds want to know. ;)
__________________________________________________
> Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
The issue of plan resale was discussed some time ago
in this space.
I raised it with Bolger in a recent letter, and he
responded as follows:
"Plans bought in good faith can
certainly be traded, or sold, as long as only one boat
is built from them. We regard a plan sale as a
license to build one boat. We continue to service
plans from Common Sense Designs, but it is now several
years since we withdrew CSD's rights to sell our plans
after... (Snip). We would appreciate the word being
passed as copies of the CSD plans keep surfacing."
"(Dynamite Payson has the right to sell twenty-odd of
our designs, and Wooden Boat Store has two. There are
no other legitimate sources four our plans and will
not be any in the foreseeable future.)"
______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
in this space.
I raised it with Bolger in a recent letter, and he
responded as follows:
"Plans bought in good faith can
certainly be traded, or sold, as long as only one boat
is built from them. We regard a plan sale as a
license to build one boat. We continue to service
plans from Common Sense Designs, but it is now several
years since we withdrew CSD's rights to sell our plans
after... (Snip). We would appreciate the word being
passed as copies of the CSD plans keep surfacing."
"(Dynamite Payson has the right to sell twenty-odd of
our designs, and Wooden Boat Store has two. There are
no other legitimate sources four our plans and will
not be any in the foreseeable future.)"
______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
Hi, all
Returning to an earlier thread I initiated... Yesterday I sent a fax
to PCB asking him about using Sitka spruce rather than the Douglas-
fir specified for my new Surf's mast. FYI, here's his (very prompt)
response:
"Spruce is (usually) more brittle than fir. If the sticks you're
offered are oversize, add a quarter-inch or so to the given
dimensions. If the wood is not there for that, use it anyway, but go
easy on hiking out in fresh wind. (The fir mast can be broken by
enthusiastic-enough hiking by a heavy-enough crew.)" -- Phil Bolger
John E.
Returning to an earlier thread I initiated... Yesterday I sent a fax
to PCB asking him about using Sitka spruce rather than the Douglas-
fir specified for my new Surf's mast. FYI, here's his (very prompt)
response:
"Spruce is (usually) more brittle than fir. If the sticks you're
offered are oversize, add a quarter-inch or so to the given
dimensions. If the wood is not there for that, use it anyway, but go
easy on hiking out in fresh wind. (The fir mast can be broken by
enthusiastic-enough hiking by a heavy-enough crew.)" -- Phil Bolger
John E.
That's what I'm going to build mine out out, and the gaff.
Will be solid cedar, with a layer of fiberglass on the outside.
Should be lighter and stronger than the other alternative I've
considerd, solid dough fir. Boom will be dough fir, the added weight
should act as a vang.
Will be solid cedar, with a layer of fiberglass on the outside.
Should be lighter and stronger than the other alternative I've
considerd, solid dough fir. Boom will be dough fir, the added weight
should act as a vang.
--- In bolger@y..., Stefan Nohn <nohnmusik@g...> wrote:
> Hi,
> what is about western red cedar for mast-building, it's light wood.
What
> are
> the drawbacks of this wood for mast-building?
> Any suggestions?
>
> Stefan
Thanks. Probably a good idea you have there, use a tree.
However, "free" in this case is a 3000 mile trip, about $200 in gas.
That buys a lot of good lumber yard boards...
However, "free" in this case is a 3000 mile trip, about $200 in gas.
That buys a lot of good lumber yard boards...
--- In bolger@y..., pateson@c... wrote:
> I think this is where I came in a long time ago, but
> I still have a Lot Douglas Fir poles growing withing
> a few hundred feet of my cabin.
> They were all planted too close together and grew for the
> light. Very tall and skinny. Few limbs.
> Most are 10-60 years old.
> I might have some tops that would be "Surf" size.
> I know I have anything larger, up to Smalll Schooner.
> The Tapper to length is about right for mast building.
> Also could be used for Booms or Yards.
> "Simple" Is best, and putting up a "Tree" is about as
> simple as it gets. Built in "Tapper".
> Seriously, the round "tree" distibutes the forces much
> better that sawn lumber. Center of Tree is center of mast.
> Radial grain. There Is No "Cross Grain" and Knots
> are not nearly the factor they are in a "Board".
> That's why a laminated "Board" mast is much better than solid.
> I can also give personal testimony to these "Masts"
> supporting their tops in 60+ Knot winds.
> They come up from the roots before they break.
> But that is when they are green and living.
>
> I live about 30 miles South East of Portland, Oregon, USA.
> Anybody that is interested is welcome.
> pateson@c...
> I can cut it to lenght, but transportation from here is
> up to you.
> "Free" Just a ride on your boat when you get it build.
>
> Have fun
> Pat Patteson
> Molalla, Oregon
>
> (You would think with all these "Free" masts around, I would
> do better that Irrigation pipe to the "Toad".)
Stefan:
I used Western Red Cedar for the masts and booms and yard on my Caprice:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/caprice/index.htm
I made blanks out of 1x4's scarfed and glued up square. I cut out all the knots and staggered the scarfs. After shaping, I covered each with two layers of 9oz. - 90% unidirectional glass in epoxy. What it amounts to is a fiberglass mast with a wood core, but they are very light, and I have been blown on beam ends without breaking anything. So far so good.
Chuck
I used Western Red Cedar for the masts and booms and yard on my Caprice:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/caprice/index.htm
I made blanks out of 1x4's scarfed and glued up square. I cut out all the knots and staggered the scarfs. After shaping, I covered each with two layers of 9oz. - 90% unidirectional glass in epoxy. What it amounts to is a fiberglass mast with a wood core, but they are very light, and I have been blown on beam ends without breaking anything. So far so good.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: Stefan Nohn
To: bolger-group
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:21 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Kiln-Dried Fir for Surf Mast? Spruce?
Hi,
what is about western red cedar for mast-building, it's light wood. What
are
the drawbacks of this wood for mast-building?
Any suggestions?
Stefan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I get it, that won't win you much in lamination terms,
but what it does is if there is a no-fatal degree of
grain run-out, etc... the inversion will more likely
line up the good with the bad, and as a result give
you a reduced chance of having a really fatal flaw
somewhere, either as regards a tendancy to warp, or a
tendance to break. Doing this with a really nice
plank would be useless.
My preference is just to use my eyes. If I see a
fatal knot, I scarph around it, etc... A lot of these
boats use free-standing spars. These aren't going to
be loaded mostly in compresion, obviously they
deflect, so all the larger flaws should really be cut
arround, since they aren't going to like tension much
at all.
Someone mentioned elsewhere offsetting scarphs.
Nothing wrong with that, but if they are properly
done, they amount to lamination and may strengthen the
spar. That was the Piver strategy, enough overlaping
scarps that they stiffened things up.
Anyway, far be it for me to argue with what works.
_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com
but what it does is if there is a no-fatal degree of
grain run-out, etc... the inversion will more likely
line up the good with the bad, and as a result give
you a reduced chance of having a really fatal flaw
somewhere, either as regards a tendancy to warp, or a
tendance to break. Doing this with a really nice
plank would be useless.
My preference is just to use my eyes. If I see a
fatal knot, I scarph around it, etc... A lot of these
boats use free-standing spars. These aren't going to
be loaded mostly in compresion, obviously they
deflect, so all the larger flaws should really be cut
arround, since they aren't going to like tension much
at all.
Someone mentioned elsewhere offsetting scarphs.
Nothing wrong with that, but if they are properly
done, they amount to lamination and may strengthen the
spar. That was the Piver strategy, enough overlaping
scarps that they stiffened things up.
Anyway, far be it for me to argue with what works.
_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com
I think this is where I came in a long time ago, but
I still have a Lot Douglas Fir poles growing withing
a few hundred feet of my cabin.
They were all planted too close together and grew for the
light. Very tall and skinny. Few limbs.
Most are 10-60 years old.
I might have some tops that would be "Surf" size.
I know I have anything larger, up to Smalll Schooner.
The Tapper to length is about right for mast building.
Also could be used for Booms or Yards.
"Simple" Is best, and putting up a "Tree" is about as
simple as it gets. Built in "Tapper".
Seriously, the round "tree" distibutes the forces much
better that sawn lumber. Center of Tree is center of mast.
Radial grain. There Is No "Cross Grain" and Knots
are not nearly the factor they are in a "Board".
That's why a laminated "Board" mast is much better than solid.
I can also give personal testimony to these "Masts"
supporting their tops in 60+ Knot winds.
They come up from the roots before they break.
But that is when they are green and living.
I live about 30 miles South East of Portland, Oregon, USA.
Anybody that is interested is welcome.
pateson@...
I can cut it to lenght, but transportation from here is
up to you.
"Free" Just a ride on your boat when you get it build.
Have fun
Pat Patteson
Molalla, Oregon
(You would think with all these "Free" masts around, I would
do better that Irrigation pipe to the "Toad".)
I still have a Lot Douglas Fir poles growing withing
a few hundred feet of my cabin.
They were all planted too close together and grew for the
light. Very tall and skinny. Few limbs.
Most are 10-60 years old.
I might have some tops that would be "Surf" size.
I know I have anything larger, up to Smalll Schooner.
The Tapper to length is about right for mast building.
Also could be used for Booms or Yards.
"Simple" Is best, and putting up a "Tree" is about as
simple as it gets. Built in "Tapper".
Seriously, the round "tree" distibutes the forces much
better that sawn lumber. Center of Tree is center of mast.
Radial grain. There Is No "Cross Grain" and Knots
are not nearly the factor they are in a "Board".
That's why a laminated "Board" mast is much better than solid.
I can also give personal testimony to these "Masts"
supporting their tops in 60+ Knot winds.
They come up from the roots before they break.
But that is when they are green and living.
I live about 30 miles South East of Portland, Oregon, USA.
Anybody that is interested is welcome.
pateson@...
I can cut it to lenght, but transportation from here is
up to you.
"Free" Just a ride on your boat when you get it build.
Have fun
Pat Patteson
Molalla, Oregon
(You would think with all these "Free" masts around, I would
do better that Irrigation pipe to the "Toad".)
Hi,
what is about western red cedar for mast-building, it's light wood. What
are
the drawbacks of this wood for mast-building?
Any suggestions?
Stefan
what is about western red cedar for mast-building, it's light wood. What
are
the drawbacks of this wood for mast-building?
Any suggestions?
Stefan
They say confession is good fo the soul, and under
the threat of being branded a heretic and thrown out
of the group, I must confess, that when I used to sail
my Elegant Punt "Toad", I used a piece of 2" Aluminum
irrigation pipe for a mast.
Sorry Folks.
I feel a lot better now.
(It was cheap, and it never broke.)
Pat
the threat of being branded a heretic and thrown out
of the group, I must confess, that when I used to sail
my Elegant Punt "Toad", I used a piece of 2" Aluminum
irrigation pipe for a mast.
Sorry Folks.
I feel a lot better now.
(It was cheap, and it never broke.)
Pat
--- In bolger@y..., vicskiff <vicskiff@s...> wrote:
> Hi, all
> Bolger and Payson specify Douglas fir for the mast and sprit
boom of the Surf (and presumably Teal, etc.). The mast is specified
as 15'6" overall and 1-3/4" square at the butt, tapering to 3/4"
square at the tip; the sprit boom is 9'6" overall and 1-5/8" square,
tapering to 7/8" at the tips. I thought of buying 1x5 for the mast
and ripping it into three strips to epoxy together and then shape.
But do you all feel about using kiln-dried fir? I've not found
decent Doug fir here in Victoria. Lovely, clear kiln-dried fir is
readily available but (apart from being pricey, of course) I wonder
if it isn't *too* dry because I experienced some splitting from nails
and screws when used for framing, etc. I believe this group discussed
kiln-dried wood previously and the consensus was against it. Same
thinking now?
> Jim Michalak says regarding sharpie masts: "...low tech wood is
the way to go....The square masts are a lot easier to build than the
octagonal or round masts. I suspect they work about as well... But I
don't think a mast should ever be made of a single piece of wood, at
least not the wood my sources carry. Always laminate from at least
two layers to minimize warping."
> So what about sitka spruce? I understand sitka spruce is pretty
standard mast material in this neck of the woods. But the Surf's mast
is unstayed, typical of the type, and Bolger specifies Doug fir. What
are the comparative properties?
> Thanks
> John Ewing
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The drill is to rip the piece of wood in half, then turn one half end for
end before gluing them pieces back together. It's supposed to reduce the
chance of warping and lots of builders have used the method over the years,
whetehr it works or not...
end before gluing them pieces back together. It's supposed to reduce the
chance of warping and lots of builders have used the method over the years,
whetehr it works or not...
On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:56:56 -0500 (EST), thomas dalzell wrote:
> ...
> By the way, ripping a pole in half, and regluing it
> along the neutral axis, I am not sure where that gets
> you. I mean it can give you a better grade, because
> often there is pith up the center of a 2x, so that can
> be positive, but as far as lamination is concerned, I
> am not sure what is achieved.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
I must say I find television very educational. The minute somebody turns
it on, I go to the library and read a good book. <Groucho Marx>
Let us say you end up with some of that crapy pine, or
fir, or whatever, and some nice sitka. Here is how
you could go, and any of you engineers out there are
welcome to jump in to get this right.
The tester I refered to was a welded (but could be
wood H fram, that suported a stick of lumber on top of
a bottle jack, resting on a bathroom scale. What they
did at the aircraft factory was pump up the jack until
the wooden stick broke, and followed the load reading
on the bathroom scale. Mine may be one of the only
households that doesn't have a bottle jack or a
bathroom scale, but I imagine they are pretty comon.
You could probably find some household structure, like
two chairs or something that could stand in for the
welded frame.
Two interesting tests would be to put in two identical
samples, in turn, and see how much load was required
to bend them, and how much load is required to break
them.
Ok here is the sticky part. My understanding is that
if it took 50# to bend one stick one inch, and 100# to
bend another, then the first would need to be
stiffened in the direction of the load by the cube
root of 2, or 1.25 times. (you want to choose a
degree of deflection that doesn't consitute breaking
the stick). At the same time if one broke at half the
load, then it would need to be strengthened by being
thickened in the direction of the load by the square
root of 2, or 1.44 times. Is that right? Close?
There is beam load software, and I have a book that
explains beams also, it is more complicated if your
structure is hollow, or you are going to gross up in
both directions at once.
The point is that if you work this system well, it is
faster than writing an email, and gives you results
that are specific to the samples you have in hand. Is
D fir stronger than Sitka? that's what the books say,
but it is totally related to the actual piece you have
in hand. What about kiln dried wood? I am sure a good
piece of KD wood is better than something with grain
run out, etc... There are huge variances.
I became aware that with timbers, boats, and
airplanes, the various crafts had quite different
perceptions of what scarph angle was the minimum for
100% strength. Why is that? Wouldn't it be the same
for any piece of wood? Not if your grading is
different. So if you want to buy wood that is
ungraded, or graded for houses, but use it in boats or
planes, you have to have your own approach to grading.
A lot of experienced workers will know what they have
just by how it looks, and feels when you work it. But
some tests can be useful also.
By the way, ripping a pole in half, and regluing it
along the neutral axis, I am not sure where that gets
you. I mean it can give you a better grade, because
often there is pith up the center of a 2x, so that can
be positive, but as far as lamination is concerned, I
am not sure what is achieved.
_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com
fir, or whatever, and some nice sitka. Here is how
you could go, and any of you engineers out there are
welcome to jump in to get this right.
The tester I refered to was a welded (but could be
wood H fram, that suported a stick of lumber on top of
a bottle jack, resting on a bathroom scale. What they
did at the aircraft factory was pump up the jack until
the wooden stick broke, and followed the load reading
on the bathroom scale. Mine may be one of the only
households that doesn't have a bottle jack or a
bathroom scale, but I imagine they are pretty comon.
You could probably find some household structure, like
two chairs or something that could stand in for the
welded frame.
Two interesting tests would be to put in two identical
samples, in turn, and see how much load was required
to bend them, and how much load is required to break
them.
Ok here is the sticky part. My understanding is that
if it took 50# to bend one stick one inch, and 100# to
bend another, then the first would need to be
stiffened in the direction of the load by the cube
root of 2, or 1.25 times. (you want to choose a
degree of deflection that doesn't consitute breaking
the stick). At the same time if one broke at half the
load, then it would need to be strengthened by being
thickened in the direction of the load by the square
root of 2, or 1.44 times. Is that right? Close?
There is beam load software, and I have a book that
explains beams also, it is more complicated if your
structure is hollow, or you are going to gross up in
both directions at once.
The point is that if you work this system well, it is
faster than writing an email, and gives you results
that are specific to the samples you have in hand. Is
D fir stronger than Sitka? that's what the books say,
but it is totally related to the actual piece you have
in hand. What about kiln dried wood? I am sure a good
piece of KD wood is better than something with grain
run out, etc... There are huge variances.
I became aware that with timbers, boats, and
airplanes, the various crafts had quite different
perceptions of what scarph angle was the minimum for
100% strength. Why is that? Wouldn't it be the same
for any piece of wood? Not if your grading is
different. So if you want to buy wood that is
ungraded, or graded for houses, but use it in boats or
planes, you have to have your own approach to grading.
A lot of experienced workers will know what they have
just by how it looks, and feels when you work it. But
some tests can be useful also.
By the way, ripping a pole in half, and regluing it
along the neutral axis, I am not sure where that gets
you. I mean it can give you a better grade, because
often there is pith up the center of a 2x, so that can
be positive, but as far as lamination is concerned, I
am not sure what is achieved.
_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com
Hmmm... Tempting, very tempting, Peter. But where are you located?
John Ewing
John Ewing
--- In bolger@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote:
> When I built the mast for my elegant punt about 20 years ago, I
> bought a stock size of Douglas Fir. A friend ripped it in two on
his
> radial arm saw. When I glued the two halves together, it was a
> perfect size mast blank. I don't remember the dimensions, but it
> worked out so neatly that I assumed it was what PCB had in mind
when
> he drew the plan.
>
> I got as far as rough-shaping the mast but no farther. It is still
in
> my garage (does this count as air-dried lumber?). The mast, rudder
> blade, leeboard blade, and tiller could be available to anyone with
> an interest and a use. The tiller is even varnished.
>
> Actually, the punt, well checked and covered with English ivy,
might
> be available too.
>
> Peter
--- In bolger@y..., ellengaest@b... wrote:
Even though I launched it in September, I don't have pictures of the completed Surf as yet because of camera difficulties (including dropping a *very* disposable one in the drink while working on the new dock). However, I have an album of construction photos at PhotoWorks in Seattle. You should be able to see them by clicking on
http://photomail.photoworks.com/sharing/album.asp?Key=4430078432400000
Sorry to hear your season is finished on the St. Lawrence.
John Ewing
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Got any pictures of your SURF for us visual types....?Boating hasPeter
> come to an end for us in this neck of the woods!
Even though I launched it in September, I don't have pictures of the completed Surf as yet because of camera difficulties (including dropping a *very* disposable one in the drink while working on the new dock). However, I have an album of construction photos at PhotoWorks in Seattle. You should be able to see them by clicking on
http://photomail.photoworks.com/sharing/album.asp?Key=4430078432400000
Sorry to hear your season is finished on the St. Lawrence.
John Ewing
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When I built the mast for my elegant punt about 20 years ago, I
bought a stock size of Douglas Fir. A friend ripped it in two on his
radial arm saw. When I glued the two halves together, it was a
perfect size mast blank. I don't remember the dimensions, but it
worked out so neatly that I assumed it was what PCB had in mind when
he drew the plan.
I got as far as rough-shaping the mast but no farther. It is still in
my garage (does this count as air-dried lumber?). The mast, rudder
blade, leeboard blade, and tiller could be available to anyone with
an interest and a use. The tiller is even varnished.
Actually, the punt, well checked and covered with English ivy, might
be available too.
Peter
bought a stock size of Douglas Fir. A friend ripped it in two on his
radial arm saw. When I glued the two halves together, it was a
perfect size mast blank. I don't remember the dimensions, but it
worked out so neatly that I assumed it was what PCB had in mind when
he drew the plan.
I got as far as rough-shaping the mast but no farther. It is still in
my garage (does this count as air-dried lumber?). The mast, rudder
blade, leeboard blade, and tiller could be available to anyone with
an interest and a use. The tiller is even varnished.
Actually, the punt, well checked and covered with English ivy, might
be available too.
Peter
Hi John,
Can't really give you technical details regarding various woods
but I remember when it came time to build my SURF mast,I went to the
local Canadian Tire store to their lumber dept.(ha!),picked up a
bunch of 3/4 X 2 inch pine sticks of about 8 to 10 in length and then
just glued them together with lots of srews to back up the glue.
This was definetly not premium grade anything but did hold up very
well until I sold her.The key was the laminating of the cheap wood
and then keeping it well varnished.The SURFs sail area is not that
great and by the time the wind is really blowing,there is a good
chance you will be down to oars or beached. With the sprit rig,it is
also an easy matter to dump the wind,even in a dead run,by just
letting go of the mainsheet.The mainsail will luff forward of the
mast......a strange thing to see but a good last ditch strategy!
Sitka spruce is really really nice stuff,especially if you can
get it cheap,but might be too rich for the simple proliteriate blood
of the SURF.
Got any pictures of your SURF for us visual types....?Boating has
come to an end for us in this neck of the woods!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan...............
Can't really give you technical details regarding various woods
but I remember when it came time to build my SURF mast,I went to the
local Canadian Tire store to their lumber dept.(ha!),picked up a
bunch of 3/4 X 2 inch pine sticks of about 8 to 10 in length and then
just glued them together with lots of srews to back up the glue.
This was definetly not premium grade anything but did hold up very
well until I sold her.The key was the laminating of the cheap wood
and then keeping it well varnished.The SURFs sail area is not that
great and by the time the wind is really blowing,there is a good
chance you will be down to oars or beached. With the sprit rig,it is
also an easy matter to dump the wind,even in a dead run,by just
letting go of the mainsheet.The mainsail will luff forward of the
mast......a strange thing to see but a good last ditch strategy!
Sitka spruce is really really nice stuff,especially if you can
get it cheap,but might be too rich for the simple proliteriate blood
of the SURF.
Got any pictures of your SURF for us visual types....?Boating has
come to an end for us in this neck of the woods!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan...............
--- In bolger@y..., vicskiff <vicskiff@s...> wrote:
> Hi, all
> Bolger and Payson specify Douglas fir for the mast and sprit
boom of the Surf (and presumably Teal, etc.). The mast is specified
as 15'6" overall and 1-3/4" square at the butt, tapering to 3/4"
square at the tip; the sprit boom is 9'6" overall and 1-5/8" square,
tapering to 7/8" at the tips. I thought of buying 1x5 for the mast
and ripping it into three strips to epoxy together and then shape.
But do you all feel about using kiln-dried fir? I've not found
decent Doug fir here in Victoria. Lovely, clear kiln-dried fir is
readily available but (apart from being pricey, of course) I wonder
if it isn't *too* dry because I experienced some splitting from nails
and screws when used for framing, etc. I believe this group discussed
kiln-dried wood previously and the consensus was against it. Same
thinking now?
> Jim Michalak says regarding sharpie masts: "...low tech wood is
the way to go....The square masts are a lot easier to build than the
octagonal or round masts. I suspect they work about as well... But I
don't think a mast should ever be made of a single piece of wood, at
least not the wood my sources carry. Always laminate from at least
two layers to minimize warping."
> So what about sitka spruce? I understand sitka spruce is pretty
standard mast material in this neck of the woods. But the Surf's mast
is unstayed, typical of the type, and Bolger specifies Doug fir. What
are the comparative properties?
> Thanks
> John Ewing
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Say, thanks for the offer, Jamie. Did you make the mast for your
Elegant Punt? I'll definitely give you a call and come have a look. I
certainly value your experience and expertise. In return I can at
least offer the opportunity to row on Portage Inlet some time. Two
quite different wooden boats to choose from!!
John
Elegant Punt? I'll definitely give you a call and come have a look. I
certainly value your experience and expertise. In return I can at
least offer the opportunity to row on Portage Inlet some time. Two
quite different wooden boats to choose from!!
John
--- In bolger@y..., "Orr, Jamie" <jorr@b...> wrote:
> Hi John
>
> I've got a brand new instant boat mast I glued up out of spruce a
couple of
> months ago -- the varnishing isn't finished, nor is the sail, but
if you'd
> like to drop by and see what you think of spruce, give me a call.
If you
> think it passes, I've got some spruce left that you can look over.
>
> I glued mine out of two halves -- one full length and one scarfed.
I'd
> rather have scarfs than use the kiln dried fir.
>
> Jamie Orr
>
> PS Congratulations on finishing your Surf.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vicskiff [mailto:vicskiff@s...]
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 7:36 PM
> To: Bolger Yahoogroup
> Subject: [bolger] Kiln-Dried Fir for Surf Mast? Spruce?
>
>
> Hi, all
> Bolger and Payson specify Douglas fir for the mast and sprit
boom of the
> Surf (and presumably Teal, etc.). The mast is specified as 15'6"
overall and
> 1-3/4" square at the butt, tapering to 3/4" square at the tip; the
sprit
> boom is 9'6" overall and 1-5/8" square, tapering to 7/8" at the
tips. I
> thought of buying 1x5 for the mast and ripping it into three strips
to epoxy
> together and then shape. But do you all feel about using kiln-dried
fir?
> I've not found decent Doug fir here in Victoria. Lovely, clear kiln-
dried
> fir is readily available but (apart from being pricey, of course) I
wonder
> if it isn't *too* dry because I experienced some splitting from
nails and
> screws when used for framing, etc. I believe this group discussed
kiln-dried
> wood previously and the consensus was against it. Same thinking now?
> Jim Michalak says regarding sharpie masts: "...low tech wood is
the way
> to go....The square masts are a lot easier to build than the
octagonal or
> round masts. I suspect they work about as well... But I don't think
a mast
> should ever be made of a single piece of wood, at least not the
wood my
> sources carry. Always laminate from at least two layers to minimize
> warping."
> So what about sitka spruce? I understand sitka spruce is pretty
standard
> mast material in this neck of the woods. But the Surf's mast is
unstayed,
> typical of the type, and Bolger specifies Doug fir. What are the
comparative
> properties?
> Thanks
> John Ewing
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
If you guys in the NW want some VG Old growth spruce, green, I can get
you the name of some mills that can put it on the barge to Seattle for
you. I buy 500-1000 bd feet of stuff at a time and put under shelter in
the back yard, so I always have seasoned wood available. Of course you
need the use of a planer also.
HJ
"Orr, Jamie" wrote:
you the name of some mills that can put it on the barge to Seattle for
you. I buy 500-1000 bd feet of stuff at a time and put under shelter in
the back yard, so I always have seasoned wood available. Of course you
need the use of a planer also.
HJ
"Orr, Jamie" wrote:
>
> Hi John
>
> I've got a brand new instant boat mast I glued up out of spruce a couple of
> months ago -- the varnishing isn't finished, nor is the sail, but if you'd
> like to drop by and see what you think of spruce, give me a call. If you
> think it passes, I've got some spruce left that you can look over.
>
> I glued mine out of two halves -- one full length and one scarfed. I'd
> rather have scarfs than use the kiln dried fir.
>
> Jamie Orr
>
> PS Congratulations on finishing your Surf.
>
>
Hi John
I've got a brand new instant boat mast I glued up out of spruce a couple of
months ago -- the varnishing isn't finished, nor is the sail, but if you'd
like to drop by and see what you think of spruce, give me a call. If you
think it passes, I've got some spruce left that you can look over.
I glued mine out of two halves -- one full length and one scarfed. I'd
rather have scarfs than use the kiln dried fir.
Jamie Orr
PS Congratulations on finishing your Surf.
-----Original Message-----
From: vicskiff [mailto:vicskiff@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 7:36 PM
To: Bolger Yahoogroup
Subject: [bolger] Kiln-Dried Fir for Surf Mast? Spruce?
Hi, all
Bolger and Payson specify Douglas fir for the mast and sprit boom of the
Surf (and presumably Teal, etc.). The mast is specified as 15'6" overall and
1-3/4" square at the butt, tapering to 3/4" square at the tip; the sprit
boom is 9'6" overall and 1-5/8" square, tapering to 7/8" at the tips. I
thought of buying 1x5 for the mast and ripping it into three strips to epoxy
together and then shape. But do you all feel about using kiln-dried fir?
I've not found decent Doug fir here in Victoria. Lovely, clear kiln-dried
fir is readily available but (apart from being pricey, of course) I wonder
if it isn't *too* dry because I experienced some splitting from nails and
screws when used for framing, etc. I believe this group discussed kiln-dried
wood previously and the consensus was against it. Same thinking now?
Jim Michalak says regarding sharpie masts: "...low tech wood is the way
to go....The square masts are a lot easier to build than the octagonal or
round masts. I suspect they work about as well... But I don't think a mast
should ever be made of a single piece of wood, at least not the wood my
sources carry. Always laminate from at least two layers to minimize
warping."
So what about sitka spruce? I understand sitka spruce is pretty standard
mast material in this neck of the woods. But the Surf's mast is unstayed,
typical of the type, and Bolger specifies Doug fir. What are the comparative
properties?
Thanks
John Ewing
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I've got a brand new instant boat mast I glued up out of spruce a couple of
months ago -- the varnishing isn't finished, nor is the sail, but if you'd
like to drop by and see what you think of spruce, give me a call. If you
think it passes, I've got some spruce left that you can look over.
I glued mine out of two halves -- one full length and one scarfed. I'd
rather have scarfs than use the kiln dried fir.
Jamie Orr
PS Congratulations on finishing your Surf.
-----Original Message-----
From: vicskiff [mailto:vicskiff@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 7:36 PM
To: Bolger Yahoogroup
Subject: [bolger] Kiln-Dried Fir for Surf Mast? Spruce?
Hi, all
Bolger and Payson specify Douglas fir for the mast and sprit boom of the
Surf (and presumably Teal, etc.). The mast is specified as 15'6" overall and
1-3/4" square at the butt, tapering to 3/4" square at the tip; the sprit
boom is 9'6" overall and 1-5/8" square, tapering to 7/8" at the tips. I
thought of buying 1x5 for the mast and ripping it into three strips to epoxy
together and then shape. But do you all feel about using kiln-dried fir?
I've not found decent Doug fir here in Victoria. Lovely, clear kiln-dried
fir is readily available but (apart from being pricey, of course) I wonder
if it isn't *too* dry because I experienced some splitting from nails and
screws when used for framing, etc. I believe this group discussed kiln-dried
wood previously and the consensus was against it. Same thinking now?
Jim Michalak says regarding sharpie masts: "...low tech wood is the way
to go....The square masts are a lot easier to build than the octagonal or
round masts. I suspect they work about as well... But I don't think a mast
should ever be made of a single piece of wood, at least not the wood my
sources carry. Always laminate from at least two layers to minimize
warping."
So what about sitka spruce? I understand sitka spruce is pretty standard
mast material in this neck of the woods. But the Surf's mast is unstayed,
typical of the type, and Bolger specifies Doug fir. What are the comparative
properties?
Thanks
John Ewing
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
As mentioned I am building a spar for Fat Eeek. It is
11.5' long, and 1.25" tapering to .75" over the top
2'. It is "from a square piece" or words to that
effect. Does anyone know whether this spar is
intended to be square in final section? Anhinga's
(about 80 designs later) is, but not all Bolger boats
are, as far as I know.
Any guesses?
I suppose I might be so bold as to ask whether it be
square, given the crap I am building it from?
_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com
11.5' long, and 1.25" tapering to .75" over the top
2'. It is "from a square piece" or words to that
effect. Does anyone know whether this spar is
intended to be square in final section? Anhinga's
(about 80 designs later) is, but not all Bolger boats
are, as far as I know.
Any guesses?
I suppose I might be so bold as to ask whether it be
square, given the crap I am building it from?
_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com
I would certainly use kiln dried wood, I just wouldn't
go out of my way for it. It is often different from
air dried, but the structural properties are pretty
predictable, which is why most certified lumber is
kiln dried. Well it is KD because they need to move
it through, but that doesn't stop them frome
certifying it. As far as I know, this goes for
aircraft grade also. As to that what yo do is come up
with a modulus, and destruction test it. I have been
in small plane factories where they do this with a
pump jack and a bathroom scale. They don't care what
the species is as long as they get reliable supply,
and hit their numbers.
Sitka Spruce is the best of the best. Basic
properties are a little less stiff and strong than D
fir, but much more split resistant, Cannot be beat.
The only reason not to use it would be if your
particular specifications where made with the modulus
of D fir in mind. It is pretty unlikely we are as
close to the bone as all that.
Another thing to keep in mind is carphing your wood.
I started making a spar yesterday, and haven't gotten
back to it yet, but it is coming out of a 2x4 piece of
construction spruce, with many knots. I am finishing
it to 1.25" and just scarphed at every knot, its a lot
of scarphs, but they stiffen the piece, and I have
clear wood when I am done. Should be fine. Would
that get you into the cheapper stock?
Piver used to specify that his 30' multihull spars be
made of 2 2x6 for a 4x6 finished. Each piece was
scarphed every 4' as I recall. In the sixties in
California, I doubht he did it to get good wood, it
was everywhere.
_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com
go out of my way for it. It is often different from
air dried, but the structural properties are pretty
predictable, which is why most certified lumber is
kiln dried. Well it is KD because they need to move
it through, but that doesn't stop them frome
certifying it. As far as I know, this goes for
aircraft grade also. As to that what yo do is come up
with a modulus, and destruction test it. I have been
in small plane factories where they do this with a
pump jack and a bathroom scale. They don't care what
the species is as long as they get reliable supply,
and hit their numbers.
Sitka Spruce is the best of the best. Basic
properties are a little less stiff and strong than D
fir, but much more split resistant, Cannot be beat.
The only reason not to use it would be if your
particular specifications where made with the modulus
of D fir in mind. It is pretty unlikely we are as
close to the bone as all that.
Another thing to keep in mind is carphing your wood.
I started making a spar yesterday, and haven't gotten
back to it yet, but it is coming out of a 2x4 piece of
construction spruce, with many knots. I am finishing
it to 1.25" and just scarphed at every knot, its a lot
of scarphs, but they stiffen the piece, and I have
clear wood when I am done. Should be fine. Would
that get you into the cheapper stock?
Piver used to specify that his 30' multihull spars be
made of 2 2x6 for a 4x6 finished. Each piece was
scarphed every 4' as I recall. In the sixties in
California, I doubht he did it to get good wood, it
was everywhere.
_______________________________________________________
Build your own website in minutes and for free athttp://ca.geocities.com
Hi, all
Bolger and Payson specify Douglas fir for the mast and sprit boom of the Surf (and presumably Teal, etc.). The mast is specified as 15'6" overall and 1-3/4" square at the butt, tapering to 3/4" square at the tip; the sprit boom is 9'6" overall and 1-5/8" square, tapering to 7/8" at the tips. I thought of buying 1x5 for the mast and ripping it into three strips to epoxy together and then shape. But do you all feel about using kiln-dried fir? I've not found decent Doug fir here in Victoria. Lovely, clear kiln-dried fir is readily available but (apart from being pricey, of course) I wonder if it isn't *too* dry because I experienced some splitting from nails and screws when used for framing, etc. I believe this group discussed kiln-dried wood previously and the consensus was against it. Same thinking now?
Jim Michalak says regarding sharpie masts: "...low tech wood is the way to go....The square masts are a lot easier to build than the octagonal or round masts. I suspect they work about as well... But I don't think a mast should ever be made of a single piece of wood, at least not the wood my sources carry. Always laminate from at least two layers to minimize warping."
So what about sitka spruce? I understand sitka spruce is pretty standard mast material in this neck of the woods. But the Surf's mast is unstayed, typical of the type, and Bolger specifies Doug fir. What are the comparative properties?
Thanks
John Ewing
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger and Payson specify Douglas fir for the mast and sprit boom of the Surf (and presumably Teal, etc.). The mast is specified as 15'6" overall and 1-3/4" square at the butt, tapering to 3/4" square at the tip; the sprit boom is 9'6" overall and 1-5/8" square, tapering to 7/8" at the tips. I thought of buying 1x5 for the mast and ripping it into three strips to epoxy together and then shape. But do you all feel about using kiln-dried fir? I've not found decent Doug fir here in Victoria. Lovely, clear kiln-dried fir is readily available but (apart from being pricey, of course) I wonder if it isn't *too* dry because I experienced some splitting from nails and screws when used for framing, etc. I believe this group discussed kiln-dried wood previously and the consensus was against it. Same thinking now?
Jim Michalak says regarding sharpie masts: "...low tech wood is the way to go....The square masts are a lot easier to build than the octagonal or round masts. I suspect they work about as well... But I don't think a mast should ever be made of a single piece of wood, at least not the wood my sources carry. Always laminate from at least two layers to minimize warping."
So what about sitka spruce? I understand sitka spruce is pretty standard mast material in this neck of the woods. But the Surf's mast is unstayed, typical of the type, and Bolger specifies Doug fir. What are the comparative properties?
Thanks
John Ewing
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]