Re: [bolger] Attention Moderator Greg was:Re: Peter Blake

I apologize as well. Back to lurk mode...

-MFX
--- timothyennuinet <timothy@...> wrote:

> Apologies.... I got carried away.
>
> Thanks for the wake up call. :)
>
> --T
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and
> punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
> snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box
> 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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I'd feel more comfortable sharing it with him. An
armed society is a polite society. It's not the gun
you have that keeps you safe- it's the gun they
*think* you *might* have...

--- "Orr, Jamie" <jorr@...> wrote:

> Nice rant. No offense, but I hope we never share an
> anchorage -- I wouldn't
> sleep a wink!
>
> Jamie Orr
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: timothyennuinet [mailto:timothy@...]
> Sent: December 10, 2001 9:02 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Peter Blake
>
>
> I think the attitude that people shouldn't be
> carrying guns is silly
> and unrealistic.
>
> In the wilderness, you need to be able to defend
> yourself from all
> sorts of dangers, not all of which may include
> robbers or pirates.
> There are millions of people who do so legally and
> safely every day,
> and have been for quite some time.
>
> Taking away the right to bear arms is a way to
> increase dependence
> upon the state, I think. You're talking about a
> basic survival thing
> here.. the ability to defend yourself against a
> threat to your life.
> I think government taking away that right is more
> than a little iron
> handed, and smacks of totalitarianism.
>
> No, you can't defend yourself from a criminal whom
> has a loaded
> weapon pointed at you.
>
> No, you can't defend yourself against a charging
> Black Bear.
>
> That's what we're here for.
>
> Umm.. last time I checked, Law Enforcement's only
> job was to..
> enforce the law. NOT to protect ANYBODY. In fact,
> police officers
> whom were sued for negligence were aquitted because
> they 'judged'
> that the situation would be -worse- if they stopped
> the woman from
> being gang raped (they were sitting in the bar,
> plain clothed).
>
> A Woman in St. Louis was shot 9 times by ATF agents
> in a mistaken
> raid on her premises. She had commited no crime, nor
> did they have a
> warrant. She survived, though.
>
> She pressed suit. She was threatened with criminal
> charges from the
> ATF if she did not drop the case.
>
> Canada has similiar problems, though the social
> fabric there is more
> cohesive than here, so there is less tension, and so
> less crime.
>
> That all being said, I do not bring guns along while
> cruising. I wish
> I could.. it would make me sleep alot better at
> night.
>
> Instead I have a few electrical devices, as well as
> a flare gun that
> will shoot 12 gauge shells, a hawaiian speargun, and
> two actual
> spearguns. I've had to 'display' one of them once,
> which conviced the
> fellows whom were pestering me and trying to get
> aboard to leave
> quickly. Improvise, adapt and overcome. At least I
> don't have to
> worry about customs problems, thank goodness. But I
> really wish I
> could carry a .45 pistol under my arm while I am
> onboard.
>
> I really, really wish it were not necessary. I
> really, really wish I
> could count on being safe, my wife being safe, at
> every port of call,
> at every hour of the night and day. I wish I did not
> have to evaluate
> every encounter with a stranger in port as a
> potential threat,
> because the one time I did not do that could be the
> one time it was
> REAL. If that day came, I would feel BETTER not
> having to carry a
> weapon.
>
> --- In bolger@y..., Harry James <welshman@p...>
> wrote:
> > Your right, prior arrangement will get hunting
> weapons over the
> line, but just showing up at customs
> > with weapons doesn't work. The rules just got
> tougher also, and
> Alaska had to (or has to, I am not
> > sure it is a done deal yet) change the law to
> carry a firearm as
> part of the required survival gear
> > on aircraft because of custom crossing problems.
> >
> > HJ
> <snip>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and
> punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
> snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box
> 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and
> punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
> snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box
> 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Unfortunately, it was me that started this thread and although my initial
question was answered some time ago, the thread appears to have been
continued and twisted to a different question.

My apologies to everyone.

I hope this thread will stop and let the group get back to a more Bolger
boats type discussion.

Again my apologies for opening up this can of worms.

Stuart Crawford
New Zealand

> If this topic bugs some people is it impossible for
> one to just not open those discussions that are of no
> interest...

I don't disagree, but just to be clear I didn't take
sides, and I was commenting on the self propelling
nature of bureauracy, is that off limits now also?
seems a very Bolgeresque topic?

I do think it is unfortunate that this should all come
up under Blake's name, for which I may be partially
responsible.

If this topic bugs some people is it impossible for
one to just not open those discussions that are of no
interest...

--- bgbeck55 <bgbeck55@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell
<proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:

> 
> 
> Taking away the right to bear arms is a way

to

> increase dependence 
> upon the state, I think. 
> 
> That's enough reason for most people...

Mr. Moderator, 
 
Can we officially declare this thread OFF TOPIC and
ask that any 
further discussion be taken off this list. No matter
how stridently 
we believe that our side of this argument is the
correct side, we 
should be able to agree here is not the proper place
to discuss this. 
 
I know I don't agree with all of you on a lot of
issues. That is not 
important in the context of this group. It is our
common interest in 
boats that unites us all. That's why I come here and I
hope that's 
why the rest of you are here too. 
 
Now, who wants to talk about boats? 
 
 
 
</tt>

 



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<tt>
Bolger rules!!! 
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 

 
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>


</body></html>

______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca

--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:

>
>
> Taking away the right to bear arms is a way to
> increase dependence 
> upon the state, I think.
>
> That's enough reason for most people...

Mr. Moderator,

Can we officially declare this thread OFF TOPIC and ask that any
further discussion be taken off this list. No matter how stridently
we believe that our side of this argument is the correct side, we
should be able to agree here is not the proper place to discuss this.

I know I don't agree with all of you on a lot of issues. That is not
important in the context of this group. It is our common interest in
boats that unites us all. That's why I come here and I hope that's
why the rest of you are here too.

Now, who wants to talk about boats?

Must make sitting in one's house at home uncomfortable
also, given the general level of ownership
--- "Orr, Jamie" <jorr@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
Nice rant. No offense, but I hope we never share
an anchorage -- I wouldn't 
sleep a wink! 
<

______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca

Taking away the right to bear arms is a way to
increase dependence 
upon the state, I think.

That's enough reason for most people...

______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca

Apologies.... I got carried away.

Thanks for the wake up call. :)

--T

--- In bolger@y..., "pepcruells" <pepcruells@y...> wrote:
> Dear all, this is my first post here and I want to add my 2 cents
re

Dear all, this is my first post here and I want to add my 2 cents re
safety. About 25 years ago this subject was quite widely discussed
at "Cruising World". They published an example: a cruising family was
boarded by pirates when at the SE Asia seas (can't remember exactly
the names of the place or the family); while the husband was talking
to the pirates and had the situation more or less under control, his
wife came out of the cabin carrying her months old son and a 12 gauge
gun under the other arm. Both were shot dead in an instant. The
pirates sailed away with a small amount of money and some food cans.
When I read this I thought I'd never carry a gun when cruising.

As long as there is no social justice, poor, ignorant people will
carry on robbing and killing to survive. Lets do whatever in order to
fight poverty and ignorance, only then the world will be a better
place to sail, to live.

Pep.

On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, timothyennuinet wrote:

> Umm.. last time I checked, Law Enforcement's only job was to..
> enforce the law. NOT to protect ANYBODY.

Oh, for goodness sake. Is the Secret Service not a law enforcement
agency? Are the U.S. Marshals not a law enforcement agency? Check again.

My post, and the post that prompted it are both examples of why we should
stick to boats, boating, and boatbuilding on this list.

I've seen the "guns" issue virtually destroy two good groups (to be
specific, rec.boats.building and YACHT-L), and I wish we could drop it in
favor of boatbuilding.

Ob Bolger Content: Despite all his anti-government stance, I don't recall
Bolger ever stating an opinion on guns aboard.

Law Enforcement Not to protect-----?????
Around the NW and most other places I go its written on the side of the
cop cars -"TO SERVE AND PROTECT"-

WillO
will@...
503-805-8421

-----Original Message-----
From: timothyennuinet [mailto:timothy@...]
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 9:02 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Peter Blake

I think the attitude that people shouldn't be carrying guns is silly
and unrealistic.

In the wilderness, you need to be able to defend yourself from all
sorts of dangers, not all of which may include robbers or pirates.
There are millions of people who do so legally and safely every day,
and have been for quite some time.

Taking away the right to bear arms is a way to increase dependence
upon the state, I think. You're talking about a basic survival thing
here.. the ability to defend yourself against a threat to your life.
I think government taking away that right is more than a little iron
handed, and smacks of totalitarianism.

No, you can't defend yourself from a criminal whom has a loaded
weapon pointed at you.

No, you can't defend yourself against a charging Black Bear.

That's what we're here for.

Umm.. last time I checked, Law Enforcement's only job was to..
enforce the law. NOT to protect ANYBODY. In fact, police officers
whom were sued for negligence were aquitted because they 'judged'
that the situation would be -worse- if they stopped the woman from
being gang raped (they were sitting in the bar, plain clothed).

A Woman in St. Louis was shot 9 times by ATF agents in a mistaken
raid on her premises. She had commited no crime, nor did they have a
warrant. She survived, though.

She pressed suit. She was threatened with criminal charges from the
ATF if she did not drop the case.

Canada has similiar problems, though the social fabric there is more
cohesive than here, so there is less tension, and so less crime.

That all being said, I do not bring guns along while cruising. I wish
I could.. it would make me sleep alot better at night.

Instead I have a few electrical devices, as well as a flare gun that
will shoot 12 gauge shells, a hawaiian speargun, and two actual
spearguns. I've had to 'display' one of them once, which conviced the
fellows whom were pestering me and trying to get aboard to leave
quickly. Improvise, adapt and overcome. At least I don't have to
worry about customs problems, thank goodness. But I really wish I
could carry a .45 pistol under my arm while I am onboard.

I really, really wish it were not necessary. I really, really wish I
could count on being safe, my wife being safe, at every port of call,
at every hour of the night and day. I wish I did not have to evaluate
every encounter with a stranger in port as a potential threat,
because the one time I did not do that could be the one time it was
REAL. If that day came, I would feel BETTER not having to carry a
weapon.

--- In bolger@y..., Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
> Your right, prior arrangement will get hunting weapons over the
line, but just showing up at customs
> with weapons doesn't work. The rules just got tougher also, and
Alaska had to (or has to, I am not
> sure it is a done deal yet) change the law to carry a firearm as
part of the required survival gear
> on aircraft because of custom crossing problems.
>
> HJ
<snip>

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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gentlemen,

I believe I am on solid ground in saying that this thread is off-topic,
and needs to stop or carry on elsewhere. Blake will be missed by all
sailors, and the world remains a less than certain place.

David Romasco
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_/)
C&C Landfall 42 'Tryst'
Kent Island, MD

-----Original Message-----
From: Orr, Jamie [mailto:jorr@...]
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 12:20 PM
To: 'bolger@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Peter Blake

Nice rant. No offense, but I hope we never share an anchorage -- I
wouldn't
sleep a wink!

Jamie Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: timothyennuinet [mailto:timothy@...]
Sent: December 10, 2001 9:02 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Peter Blake

I think the attitude that people shouldn't be carrying guns is silly
and unrealistic.

In the wilderness, you need to be able to defend yourself from all
sorts of dangers, not all of which may include robbers or pirates.
There are millions of people who do so legally and safely every day,
and have been for quite some time.

Taking away the right to bear arms is a way to increase dependence
upon the state, I think. You're talking about a basic survival thing
here.. the ability to defend yourself against a threat to your life.
I think government taking away that right is more than a little iron
handed, and smacks of totalitarianism.

No, you can't defend yourself from a criminal whom has a loaded
weapon pointed at you.

No, you can't defend yourself against a charging Black Bear.

That's what we're here for.

Umm.. last time I checked, Law Enforcement's only job was to..
enforce the law. NOT to protect ANYBODY. In fact, police officers
whom were sued for negligence were aquitted because they 'judged'
that the situation would be -worse- if they stopped the woman from
being gang raped (they were sitting in the bar, plain clothed).

A Woman in St. Louis was shot 9 times by ATF agents in a mistaken
raid on her premises. She had commited no crime, nor did they have a
warrant. She survived, though.

She pressed suit. She was threatened with criminal charges from the
ATF if she did not drop the case.

Canada has similiar problems, though the social fabric there is more
cohesive than here, so there is less tension, and so less crime.

That all being said, I do not bring guns along while cruising. I wish
I could.. it would make me sleep alot better at night.

Instead I have a few electrical devices, as well as a flare gun that
will shoot 12 gauge shells, a hawaiian speargun, and two actual
spearguns. I've had to 'display' one of them once, which conviced the
fellows whom were pestering me and trying to get aboard to leave
quickly. Improvise, adapt and overcome. At least I don't have to
worry about customs problems, thank goodness. But I really wish I
could carry a .45 pistol under my arm while I am onboard.

I really, really wish it were not necessary. I really, really wish I
could count on being safe, my wife being safe, at every port of call,
at every hour of the night and day. I wish I did not have to evaluate
every encounter with a stranger in port as a potential threat,
because the one time I did not do that could be the one time it was
REAL. If that day came, I would feel BETTER not having to carry a
weapon.

--- In bolger@y..., Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
> Your right, prior arrangement will get hunting weapons over the
line, but just showing up at customs
> with weapons doesn't work. The rules just got tougher also, and
Alaska had to (or has to, I am not
> sure it is a done deal yet) change the law to carry a firearm as
part of the required survival gear
> on aircraft because of custom crossing problems.
>
> HJ
<snip>

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nice rant. No offense, but I hope we never share an anchorage -- I wouldn't
sleep a wink!

Jamie Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: timothyennuinet [mailto:timothy@...]
Sent: December 10, 2001 9:02 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Peter Blake

I think the attitude that people shouldn't be carrying guns is silly
and unrealistic.

In the wilderness, you need to be able to defend yourself from all
sorts of dangers, not all of which may include robbers or pirates.
There are millions of people who do so legally and safely every day,
and have been for quite some time.

Taking away the right to bear arms is a way to increase dependence
upon the state, I think. You're talking about a basic survival thing
here.. the ability to defend yourself against a threat to your life.
I think government taking away that right is more than a little iron
handed, and smacks of totalitarianism.

No, you can't defend yourself from a criminal whom has a loaded
weapon pointed at you.

No, you can't defend yourself against a charging Black Bear.

That's what we're here for.

Umm.. last time I checked, Law Enforcement's only job was to..
enforce the law. NOT to protect ANYBODY. In fact, police officers
whom were sued for negligence were aquitted because they 'judged'
that the situation would be -worse- if they stopped the woman from
being gang raped (they were sitting in the bar, plain clothed).

A Woman in St. Louis was shot 9 times by ATF agents in a mistaken
raid on her premises. She had commited no crime, nor did they have a
warrant. She survived, though.

She pressed suit. She was threatened with criminal charges from the
ATF if she did not drop the case.

Canada has similiar problems, though the social fabric there is more
cohesive than here, so there is less tension, and so less crime.

That all being said, I do not bring guns along while cruising. I wish
I could.. it would make me sleep alot better at night.

Instead I have a few electrical devices, as well as a flare gun that
will shoot 12 gauge shells, a hawaiian speargun, and two actual
spearguns. I've had to 'display' one of them once, which conviced the
fellows whom were pestering me and trying to get aboard to leave
quickly. Improvise, adapt and overcome. At least I don't have to
worry about customs problems, thank goodness. But I really wish I
could carry a .45 pistol under my arm while I am onboard.

I really, really wish it were not necessary. I really, really wish I
could count on being safe, my wife being safe, at every port of call,
at every hour of the night and day. I wish I did not have to evaluate
every encounter with a stranger in port as a potential threat,
because the one time I did not do that could be the one time it was
REAL. If that day came, I would feel BETTER not having to carry a
weapon.

--- In bolger@y..., Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
> Your right, prior arrangement will get hunting weapons over the
line, but just showing up at customs
> with weapons doesn't work. The rules just got tougher also, and
Alaska had to (or has to, I am not
> sure it is a done deal yet) change the law to carry a firearm as
part of the required survival gear
> on aircraft because of custom crossing problems.
>
> HJ
<snip>

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I think the attitude that people shouldn't be carrying guns is silly
and unrealistic.

In the wilderness, you need to be able to defend yourself from all
sorts of dangers, not all of which may include robbers or pirates.
There are millions of people who do so legally and safely every day,
and have been for quite some time.

Taking away the right to bear arms is a way to increase dependence
upon the state, I think. You're talking about a basic survival thing
here.. the ability to defend yourself against a threat to your life.
I think government taking away that right is more than a little iron
handed, and smacks of totalitarianism.

No, you can't defend yourself from a criminal whom has a loaded
weapon pointed at you.

No, you can't defend yourself against a charging Black Bear.

That's what we're here for.

Umm.. last time I checked, Law Enforcement's only job was to..
enforce the law. NOT to protect ANYBODY. In fact, police officers
whom were sued for negligence were aquitted because they 'judged'
that the situation would be -worse- if they stopped the woman from
being gang raped (they were sitting in the bar, plain clothed).

A Woman in St. Louis was shot 9 times by ATF agents in a mistaken
raid on her premises. She had commited no crime, nor did they have a
warrant. She survived, though.

She pressed suit. She was threatened with criminal charges from the
ATF if she did not drop the case.

Canada has similiar problems, though the social fabric there is more
cohesive than here, so there is less tension, and so less crime.

That all being said, I do not bring guns along while cruising. I wish
I could.. it would make me sleep alot better at night.

Instead I have a few electrical devices, as well as a flare gun that
will shoot 12 gauge shells, a hawaiian speargun, and two actual
spearguns. I've had to 'display' one of them once, which conviced the
fellows whom were pestering me and trying to get aboard to leave
quickly. Improvise, adapt and overcome. At least I don't have to
worry about customs problems, thank goodness. But I really wish I
could carry a .45 pistol under my arm while I am onboard.

I really, really wish it were not necessary. I really, really wish I
could count on being safe, my wife being safe, at every port of call,
at every hour of the night and day. I wish I did not have to evaluate
every encounter with a stranger in port as a potential threat,
because the one time I did not do that could be the one time it was
REAL. If that day came, I would feel BETTER not having to carry a
weapon.

--- In bolger@y..., Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
> Your right, prior arrangement will get hunting weapons over the
line, but just showing up at customs
> with weapons doesn't work. The rules just got tougher also, and
Alaska had to (or has to, I am not
> sure it is a done deal yet) change the law to carry a firearm as
part of the required survival gear
> on aircraft because of custom crossing problems.
>
> HJ
<snip>

Your right, prior arrangement will get hunting weapons over the line, but just showing up at customs
with weapons doesn't work. The rules just got tougher also, and Alaska had to (or has to, I am not
sure it is a done deal yet) change the law to carry a firearm as part of the required survival gear
on aircraft because of custom crossing problems.

HJ

roue20ca wrote:

> Harry, I'm not a hunter or a big fan of guns. I do no that American
> hunter come to Canada regularly and I'm sure they bring their own guns
> legally; so I suspect your statement is not quite so black and white.
> You are however correct is you are referring to hand guns.
>
> Andy Moore
> Nova Scotia
> Canada
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "Harry W. James" <welshman@p...> wrote:
> > You don't cross the border into Canada from the US with a firearm,
> > period. Something for cruisers out of WA and the great lakes to
> think
> > about.
> >
> > HJ
> >
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In bolger@y..., Stuart Crawford <scrawford@p...> wrote:

> The question basically was. What is the legality of having a
> firearm on board against risk of piracy during international
> cruising? Particularly when travelling through areas of both high
> risk and no risk.

From what I can determine from a couple of articles, the pirates
already had the upper hand when Sir Peter appeared on deck with his
rifle.

For the general question of legality, there is some useful
information at Maritimesecurity.org (Guns on Board, Good idea or bad)
http://www.maritimesecurity.com/guns_on_board.htmfor those who want
to pursue this further. There is also now a thread at www.packing.org

Now, back to Bolger and his boats!

Steve

> From: Stuart Crawford <scrawford@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Peter Blake
>
> The question basically was. What is the legality of having a firearm on
> board against risk of piracy during international cruising? Particularly
> when travelling through areas of both high risk and no risk.
> I apologize for not giving a clear question in the first place.

For Mexico and the Bahamas (both of which have some crime but generally
more on the petty theft level) bringing in a firearm and declaring it
means endless legal hassles and trouble, bringing in a firearm, not
declaring it and getting caught means hard prison time.

Anyhow it always amazes me how so many yachties seem to leave their
brains at home when they leave their own country. In the US you would
never consider driving some high end Mercedes or Lexus into the worst
neighborhood in a big city and hanging around for weeks at a time yet
the yachties will take their high priced toys into the most poverty
stricken areas with nary a thought.

For someone who has some need to hang about for an extended time in a
high risk area the best idea would be to go through legitimate channels
and hire local security.

Tom K

Slightly off topic but, RCEME Rat childhood, Air Cadets, Naval
Reserve (bos'n) HMCS Cataraqui, 2nd Royal Canadian Regiment,
Infantryman 031, and later civilain cook at CFB Kingston and RMC.
Then I became interested in serious target shooting (even had
pretensions to try out for the Olympics once but that's anothe
story), plus blackpowder, handguns and I have three small brass
cannons to mount on my pirate ship when she's ready.

Bruce Hector

Bruce, no arguement from me on that. As I said earlier I'm not a fan
of guns, especially one that is designed for anything but hunting.
Which military where you with, American or Canadian or Other.

Andy (Ex Regular Force now Reserve, Canadian Navy, Trade:
Stoker(Marine Engineer) )

Nova Scotia
Canada

Legal or not, having a firearm on board won't help you in any piracy
situation. Unless you're prepared to kill everyone you comes near you
that is.

These people plan their acts in advance, look like they're the ones
in trouble (fire, engine out, listing, etc.) or seem like innocent
salesmen (Senor, do you want some fresh fish?), and are prepared to
use deadly force in advance.

The secret to winning a gunfight at close quarters is to be the first
one to realize you're in one. In all these cases you're going to be
the second one and will lose.

Imagine you're the pirate. Now try to imagine a plan where you're
going to get close to your target without getting them all up in
arms. Fresh fruit, fake blood from a fall, smoke bomb in your engine
compartment, topless crew sunbathing on deck, sick baby in arms, SOS,
see it's easy to figure out ways to get close to people. "Wow, nice
boat, did you build it yourself?" frequently works on me.

Bolgeristas in their Long Micros, Scow Schooners and Double Eagles
are almost immune. The boats are unsaleable if stolen, they look
unlike anything a pirate has had dealings with and they're easy to
look poor in. Try painting some fake rust lines down the hull.

The best way to survive a pirate attack is to not experience one.
Barring that, Kevlar level-3 body armour epoxied under your float
coat may help long enough to let you start digging out the flare
gun, but I doubt it.

Bruce Hector
ex infantryman, marksman and target shooter
www.brucesboats.com

Harry, I'm not a hunter or a big fan of guns. I do no that American
hunter come to Canada regularly and I'm sure they bring their own guns
legally; so I suspect your statement is not quite so black and white.
You are however correct is you are referring to hand guns.

Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada

--- In bolger@y..., "Harry W. James" <welshman@p...> wrote:
> You don't cross the border into Canada from the US with a firearm,
> period. Something for cruisers out of WA and the great lakes to
think
> about.
>
> HJ
>

Running the risk is up to you, in most cases the
pirates have probably paid for all the relevant
"permits", and are kicking back to local officials.
In international waters I think one is fine, but the
moment you enter national waters one is under the laws
of that specific country. Most contries are pretty
restrictive, since most governments aren't by the
people for the people, they don't want their private
nationals to be armed. In most cases you aren't going
to get a better deal that the nationals. I mentioned
Sept 11, another factor is the recent UN attempts to
ban small arms globaly.

Tristan Jones approach on one of his cruises was to
make a big deal about prinking away at targets in the
water with archery gear. This gave an agressive
impresion, that obviously isn't going to deter any
heavily armed profesional, but that he judged might
deter disorganized locals.

One of the problems about a big legal penalty is that
it deters the gun holder from doing anything for fear
he may spend the next ten years in some dark hole. A
fearful person holding a gun is at a dubius advantage.

I guess all this inability to be armed is the
adventure trade-off for all the great safety gear we
have as regards other issues.

You can bring guns into Canada, but you have to have
all your permits in order before you try. You also
had better understand the case law around the use of
lethal force. If they let you in with guns, it isn't
so you can shoot a few locals, but so you can hunt, or
target shoot.

--- Stuart Crawford <scrawford@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
The question basically was. What is the legality of
having a firearm on 
board against risk of piracy during international
cruising? Particularly 
when travelling through areas of both high risk and no
risk. 
I apologize for not giving a clear question in
the first place. 
 
Stuart Crawford 
New Zealand 
 
on 9/12/01 6:02 PM, roue20ca atamoore@...
wrote:

> Stuart, I'm not sure I know what your

asking. In Canada the risk of

> piracy is very slim, not enough expensive yachts

here to make it worth

> while I guess. Our sailing season is also

very short, only 4 months

> with any significant yachting going on. As

for gun control and

> permits we are much stricter than the

States. Hunting rifles and shot

> guns are ok but you must have a permit which

means know criminal

> record and registration in done through the

police departments and

> they check and so do the stores. You better

have a damn good excuse

> for a hand gun permit and even then you are

likely only going to be

> able to use it on a shooting range. Joe

public can not carry a hand

> gun around town. I don't think they would

let you simply lock it up

> while you passed through the country either. 
> 
> 
> Andy Moore 
> Nova Scotia 
> Canada

</tt>

 
<tt>
Bolger rules!!! 
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 

 
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</body></html>

______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca

You don't cross the border into Canada from the US with a firearm,
period. Something for cruisers out of WA and the great lakes to think
about.

HJ

roue20ca wrote:

>
> Stuart, I'm not sure I know what your asking. In Canada the risk of
> piracy is very slim, not enough expensive yachts here to make it worth
> while I guess. Our sailing season is also very short, only 4 months
> with any significant yachting going on. As for gun control and
> permits we are much stricter than the States. Hunting rifles and shot
> guns are ok but you must have a permit which means know criminal
> record and registration in done through the police departments and
> they check and so do the stores. You better have a damn good excuse
> for a hand gun permit and even then you are likely only going to be
> able to use it on a shooting range. Joe public can not carry a hand
> gun around town. I don't think they would let you simply lock it up
> while you passed through the country either.
>
> Andy Moore
> Nova Scotia
> Canada
>

The question basically was. What is the legality of having a firearm on
board against risk of piracy during international cruising? Particularly
when travelling through areas of both high risk and no risk.
I apologize for not giving a clear question in the first place.

Stuart Crawford
New Zealand

on 9/12/01 6:02 PM, roue20ca atamoore@...wrote:

> Stuart, I'm not sure I know what your asking. In Canada the risk of
> piracy is very slim, not enough expensive yachts here to make it worth
> while I guess. Our sailing season is also very short, only 4 months
> with any significant yachting going on. As for gun control and
> permits we are much stricter than the States. Hunting rifles and shot
> guns are ok but you must have a permit which means know criminal
> record and registration in done through the police departments and
> they check and so do the stores. You better have a damn good excuse
> for a hand gun permit and even then you are likely only going to be
> able to use it on a shooting range. Joe public can not carry a hand
> gun around town. I don't think they would let you simply lock it up
> while you passed through the country either.
>
>
> Andy Moore
> Nova Scotia
> Canada

Stuart, I'm not sure I know what your asking. In Canada the risk of
piracy is very slim, not enough expensive yachts here to make it worth
while I guess. Our sailing season is also very short, only 4 months
with any significant yachting going on. As for gun control and
permits we are much stricter than the States. Hunting rifles and shot
guns are ok but you must have a permit which means know criminal
record and registration in done through the police departments and
they check and so do the stores. You better have a damn good excuse
for a hand gun permit and even then you are likely only going to be
able to use it on a shooting range. Joe public can not carry a hand
gun around town. I don't think they would let you simply lock it up
while you passed through the country either.

Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada

That's the problem, cruising through SA, you cross all
kinds of borders, nobody has all the permits, here in
Canada, I don't know what the practice is from the
bench in terms of sentencing, but you are talking 5-10
years, though the risk of piracy is nillish.

In the post Sept 11 enviro, any border crossing with
FAs is going to be interesting.

 
Personally I'd rather be alive and have to deal with a
judge than the 
alternative. 
 
Within the US there's a lot of info at www.packing.org <

______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca

--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:

> The whole firearm thing is an interesting issue. He
> is prominent enough he may have had the whole thing
> covered, but in general I would imagine one runs a
> significant chance of arrest in much of the world for
> following that practice.

I do most of my boating in states where I'm permitted so I've never
thought a lot about foreign or international waters. But, I believe
that the general rules are:

Waters within state control, follow the laws of the state (this has
interesting consequences on, for example, the Connecticut river
between VT and NY or on Lake Champlain where one can be totally legal
east of the state boundary and be in big trouble on the other side).

US Federal law permits safe passage as long as a firearm is unloaded,
and locked up. Common example is transport by airlines. Using it can
be something else.

International waters probably anything goes.

Waters of other countries, you'd better know the laws. I just found a
UK advisory
http://www.shipping.dtlr.gov.uk/mgn/mgn075/fire.htm#Firearmsthat
tells you all about how pirates operate and what they'll do to you.
And then they tell you to report attacks (assuming you can) to the
authorities (as they say, "dial 911 and die"). An advisory on Mexico
says "Be aware that, even when you enter Mexican waters on your
private boat, you are subject to the ban on importing firearms."

Personally I'd rather be alive and have to deal with a judge than the
alternative.

Within the US there's a lot of info at www.packing.org

Steve H

The whole firearm thing is an interesting issue. He
is prominent enough he may have had the whole thing
covered, but in general I would imagine one runs a
significant chance of arrest in much of the world for
following that practice.

--- Stuart Crawford <scrawford@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
My understanding is that areas regularly patrolled by
Nato are generally 
pirate free. South America and the China sea are well
known as pirate hot 
spots. Sir Peter Blake didn't have a firearm on board
just for fun. 
 
Stuart Crawford 
New Zealand 
 
on 8/12/01 8:42 AM, thomas dalzell at
proaconstrictor@...wrote:

> I am currently reading a rather fun book called

3

> years in a 12' boat (or something like

that). Good

> read, though I don't know how legit it is.

In the

> book, He is currently making his way through

Columbia.

> Pirates seem part of the modern cruising scene,

or

> email scene for that mater. Too bad that

the dream of

> cruising is becoming harder to find.

</tt>

 



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<tt>
Bolger rules!!! 
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 

 
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______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca

Is there anyone who could clarify this point? Andy in Nova Scotia perhaps?
Or anyone else who might be in a position to know?

Stuart Crawford
New Zealand

on 9/12/01 2:43 PM, thomas dalzell atproaconstrictor@...wrote:

> The whole firearm thing is an interesting issue. He
> is prominent enough he may have had the whole thing
> covered, but in general I would imagine one runs a
> significant chance of arrest in much of the world for
> following that practice.

--- In bolger@y..., Stuart Crawford <scrawford@p...> wrote:

> My understanding is that areas regularly patrolled by Nato

Stuart, I am a Canadian Naval Engine (Stoker) and the
Americans, Canadians and other NATO countries regularly patrol and
exercise in the Caribbean and yet there is a modern pirate problems in
this area. Admittedly, perhaps not as bad as the South China Sea or
the Amizon Basin.

Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada

My understanding is that areas regularly patrolled by Nato are generally
pirate free. South America and the China sea are well known as pirate hot
spots. Sir Peter Blake didn't have a firearm on board just for fun.

Stuart Crawford
New Zealand

on 8/12/01 8:42 AM, thomas dalzell atproaconstrictor@...wrote:

> I am currently reading a rather fun book called 3
> years in a 12' boat (or something like that). Good
> read, though I don't know how legit it is. In the
> book, He is currently making his way through Columbia.
> Pirates seem part of the modern cruising scene, or
> email scene for that mater. Too bad that the dream of
> cruising is becoming harder to find.

On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Bill Samson wrote:

> By now you may have heard of the tragic murder of Sir Peter Blake by
> Amazon pirates. His Schooner was boarded and he died defending it.

Yes, tragic. But not romantic at all--some guys came on board via
outboard skiff, held up the crew on deck. Blake walked up from the cabin,
and while on the ladder, was shot twice in the chest.

Hey Peter, I've just finished the first 30 pages of this book. Yes, the
guy (Steve) is a hell of a writer. Is the rest as good as the first 30
pages are? Ciao, Tom

thomas dalzell wrote:

> I am currently reading a rather fun book called 3
> years in a 12' boat (or something like that). Good
> read, though I don't know how legit it is. In the
> book, He is currently making his way through Columbia.
> Pirates seem part of the modern cruising scene, or
> email scene for that mater. Too bad that the dream of
> cruising is becoming harder to find.
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kind words Bill.
All NZ is in shock and mourning.
DonB

> Hi guys,
>
> By now you may have heard of the tragic murder of Sir Peter Blake

by Amazon pirates. His Schooner was boarded and he died defending it.

>
> I suppose that's the stuff of legends when a great sailor is killed

by priates, but I wish he'd had a few more decades under his belt
before it happened.

>
> From what I've read he was a nice guy as well as a great

yachtsman. A rare combination (VERY rare!). Even John Ridgeway
(the militaristic, dictatorial, ultra-critical, all-round-nasty-
vindictive-bastard skipper of one of the first Whitbread boats, who
decide that most of his crew "lacked moral fibre" [i.e. "were
ordinary mortals"] and should be shot at dawn) had nothing but praise
for Blake. Can't think of anyone else who hasn't been trashed (on
paper) by Ridgeway - apart, maybe, from Chay Blyth.

>
> Bill Samson
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am currently reading a rather fun book called 3
years in a 12' boat (or something like that). Good
read, though I don't know how legit it is. In the
book, He is currently making his way through Columbia.
Pirates seem part of the modern cruising scene, or
email scene for that mater. Too bad that the dream of
cruising is becoming harder to find.

______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca

Hi guys,

By now you may have heard of the tragic murder of Sir Peter Blake by Amazon pirates. His Schooner was boarded and he died defending it.

I suppose that's the stuff of legends when a great sailor is killed by priates, but I wish he'd had a few more decades under his belt before it happened.

From what I've read he was a nice guy as well as a great yachtsman. A rare combination (VERY rare!). Even John Ridgeway (the militaristic, dictatorial, ultra-critical, all-round-nasty-vindictive-bastard skipper of one of the first Whitbread boats, who decide that most of his crew "lacked moral fibre" [i.e. "were ordinary mortals"] and should be shot at dawn) had nothing but praise for Blake. Can't think of anyone else who hasn't been trashed (on paper) by Ridgeway - apart, maybe, from Chay Blyth.

Bill Samson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]