[bolger] Re: outboard well
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000, Chuck Leinweber wrote:
the serious issue. I had finally sold my Catalina 22, with motor and
trailer, and was able to use 50% of that money toward a new outboard (the
other 50% went to an upholstered chair--can you guess I'm married?).
So, I started with some funds. I chose the Nissan on the basis of
some research, but in my case, the key issue was the availability of
service. I am not in outboard service heaven (see my location, below)--but
there is an authorized Nissan service dealer here in town. It was the
first 4-stroke that he sold, but it prompted him to send himself and
another guy to the Nissan 4-stroke class. So far, he's done a very good
job for me, at a low price. Being the first to buy affords you a little
bit better service, I think.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
> I am glad to hear that you have had good luck with the Nissan. DidHere's my story: I had a lot of money at the time, and so cost was not
> you consider the Honda? Or for that matter Yamaha? Is there really a
> price difference? Is there a quality difference?
the serious issue. I had finally sold my Catalina 22, with motor and
trailer, and was able to use 50% of that money toward a new outboard (the
other 50% went to an upholstered chair--can you guess I'm married?).
So, I started with some funds. I chose the Nissan on the basis of
some research, but in my case, the key issue was the availability of
service. I am not in outboard service heaven (see my location, below)--but
there is an authorized Nissan service dealer here in town. It was the
first 4-stroke that he sold, but it prompted him to send himself and
another guy to the Nissan 4-stroke class. So far, he's done a very good
job for me, at a low price. Being the first to buy affords you a little
bit better service, I think.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
Chris:
The Nissan motors are significantly less money that the Hondas. The Honda
9.9 four stroke that I have has been a wonderful power plant, but it cost
quite a bit. I remember paying about $2500 five years ago, but I see that
the Nissan 9.9 in the latest Cabelas catalog goes for $1750. The Honda did
have electric start, and the Nissan does not, but that is still a lot of
difference. Has anyone been outboard shopping lately?
I am glad to hear that you have had good luck with the Nissan. Did you
consider the Honda? Or for that matter Yamaha? Is there really a price
difference? Is there a quality difference?
Chuck Leinweber
Duckworks Magazine
http://www.hilconet.com/~dworksmg
The Nissan motors are significantly less money that the Hondas. The Honda
9.9 four stroke that I have has been a wonderful power plant, but it cost
quite a bit. I remember paying about $2500 five years ago, but I see that
the Nissan 9.9 in the latest Cabelas catalog goes for $1750. The Honda did
have electric start, and the Nissan does not, but that is still a lot of
difference. Has anyone been outboard shopping lately?
I am glad to hear that you have had good luck with the Nissan. Did you
consider the Honda? Or for that matter Yamaha? Is there really a price
difference? Is there a quality difference?
Chuck Leinweber
Duckworks Magazine
http://www.hilconet.com/~dworksmg
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Crandall <crandall@...>
To: <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 8:24 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: outboard well
> On Wed, 12 Jan 2000, Chuck Leinweber wrote:
> > Gee, Don, this is starting to sound pretty one sided. You bring up
> > several points that I hadn't considered. I guess the thing to do is
> > to buy a smaller motor. I will look and see what Jim MIchalak
> > recommends.
>
> Not so long ago, I purchased a 5hp Nissan 4-stroke engine. I like it very
> much--it sips gas, spits far less gas and oil into the water, and has
> plenty of power to push my funky boat around the lake or river.
>
> I recommend the 4-stroke, for environmental, moral, and tonal reasons. If
> the ethical stuff doesn't appeal, the lower pitch of the motor, which
> makes it seem a lot quieter and easier to take, is worth the cash.
>
> Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
> Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
> I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> FreeLotto.com is the only internet site to offer three free chances
> a day to win $1,000,000.00. We've already had two $1,000,000.00
> jackpot winners and thousands of other cash prizes. You could be
> a $1,000,000.00 winner tonight!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/445/5/_/3457/_/947694267/
>
> eGroups.com Home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/
>http://www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications
>
>
Hanging around a boat store that has access to all the dealer price lists
can be enlightening.
To wit:
1. Almost everyone's two strokes under 15 hp are based on Nissan/Tohatsu
blocks. they chnge features, styling etc and the motors may persorm
differently, but they are the same in many ways. The best case is the 5hp
model. Everyone has one and they are all the same block, just differences
in price.
2. In four strokes, Yamaha makes the mercury four strokes, suzuki makes the
OMCs. The Honda's are unique to them. Nissan/Tohatsu have engineered
there's from the ground up as well. Their 4 stroke 5 is amazingly light.
3. Here in Florida, everyone wants a Yamaha; They have an amazing
reputation for reliability and the finish and materials are first rate.
also, unlike the OMC fiasco with the "Mark I" version of FICHT, Yamaha has
never released a "not ready for prime time" feature or technology. Ask
anyone about OMC or Mercury's first generation oil injection systems as an
example.
4. The Hondas are not IMHO worth the usual premium they are commanding over
other brands. The Yamaha four strokes are wonderfully engineered. Honda
dealerships that couldn't be given away 10 years ago are now considered a
way to print money, due to public perception.
5. Final disgusting tidbit- Remember when their were zillions of o/b
dealers? Chainsaw shops etc used to sell outboards? Ever wonder why they
disappeared? Something called "Tiered Pricing" has taken over. It works
like this: the manufac publishes a "Dealer Cost" pricing sheet. A tier 3
dealer pays this amount (small volume) A tier two dealer might pay 7.5% off
this amount. A tier 3 dealer gets 15% off this number. The dealer has to
maintain "X" volume to and correct product mix etc. to keep his big
discount. Also, Yamaha last year had a policy that you give up an extra
spiff if you order a motor and then try to return it. Around here, if you
want a long shaft electric 15 with a tiller (weird motor) they'll make you
pay cash before ordering it.
So, the moral to the story-figure out what you want, go to the biggest
dealer in your state and announce you'll pay dealer cost for your motor and
that the dealer should be happy making his 15% on the deal. Its worth a
try.
Robert & Amy Lundy
St. Petersburg, fla.
robert@...
amy@...
can be enlightening.
To wit:
1. Almost everyone's two strokes under 15 hp are based on Nissan/Tohatsu
blocks. they chnge features, styling etc and the motors may persorm
differently, but they are the same in many ways. The best case is the 5hp
model. Everyone has one and they are all the same block, just differences
in price.
2. In four strokes, Yamaha makes the mercury four strokes, suzuki makes the
OMCs. The Honda's are unique to them. Nissan/Tohatsu have engineered
there's from the ground up as well. Their 4 stroke 5 is amazingly light.
3. Here in Florida, everyone wants a Yamaha; They have an amazing
reputation for reliability and the finish and materials are first rate.
also, unlike the OMC fiasco with the "Mark I" version of FICHT, Yamaha has
never released a "not ready for prime time" feature or technology. Ask
anyone about OMC or Mercury's first generation oil injection systems as an
example.
4. The Hondas are not IMHO worth the usual premium they are commanding over
other brands. The Yamaha four strokes are wonderfully engineered. Honda
dealerships that couldn't be given away 10 years ago are now considered a
way to print money, due to public perception.
5. Final disgusting tidbit- Remember when their were zillions of o/b
dealers? Chainsaw shops etc used to sell outboards? Ever wonder why they
disappeared? Something called "Tiered Pricing" has taken over. It works
like this: the manufac publishes a "Dealer Cost" pricing sheet. A tier 3
dealer pays this amount (small volume) A tier two dealer might pay 7.5% off
this amount. A tier 3 dealer gets 15% off this number. The dealer has to
maintain "X" volume to and correct product mix etc. to keep his big
discount. Also, Yamaha last year had a policy that you give up an extra
spiff if you order a motor and then try to return it. Around here, if you
want a long shaft electric 15 with a tiller (weird motor) they'll make you
pay cash before ordering it.
So, the moral to the story-figure out what you want, go to the biggest
dealer in your state and announce you'll pay dealer cost for your motor and
that the dealer should be happy making his 15% on the deal. Its worth a
try.
Robert & Amy Lundy
St. Petersburg, fla.
robert@...
amy@...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chuck Leinweber [mailto:duckworks@...]
> Sent: January 12, 2000 10:21 PM
> To:bolger@egroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: outboard well
>
>
> Chris:
>
> The Nissan motors are significantly less money that the Hondas. The Honda
> 9.9 four stroke that I have has been a wonderful power plant, but it cost
> quite a bit. I remember paying about $2500 five years ago, but I see that
> the Nissan 9.9 in the latest Cabelas catalog goes for $1750. The
> Honda did
> have electric start, and the Nissan does not, but that is still a lot of
> difference. Has anyone been outboard shopping lately?
>
> I am glad to hear that you have had good luck with the Nissan. Did you
> consider the Honda? Or for that matter Yamaha? Is there really a price
> difference? Is there a quality difference?
>
> Chuck Leinweber
> Duckworks Magazine
>http://www.hilconet.com/~dworksmg
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chris Crandall <crandall@...>
> To: <bolger@egroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 8:24 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: outboard well
>
>
> > On Wed, 12 Jan 2000, Chuck Leinweber wrote:
> > > Gee, Don, this is starting to sound pretty one sided. You bring up
> > > several points that I hadn't considered. I guess the thing to do is
> > > to buy a smaller motor. I will look and see what Jim MIchalak
> > > recommends.
> >
> > Not so long ago, I purchased a 5hp Nissan 4-stroke engine. I
> like it very
> > much--it sips gas, spits far less gas and oil into the water, and has
> > plenty of power to push my funky boat around the lake or river.
> >
> > I recommend the 4-stroke, for environmental, moral, and tonal
> reasons. If
> > the ethical stuff doesn't appeal, the lower pitch of the motor, which
> > makes it seem a lot quieter and easier to take, is worth the cash.
> >
> > Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
> > Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
> > I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > FreeLotto.com is the only internet site to offer three free chances
> > a day to win $1,000,000.00. We've already had two $1,000,000.00
> > jackpot winners and thousands of other cash prizes. You could be
> > a $1,000,000.00 winner tonight!
> >http://click.egroups.com/1/445/5/_/3457/_/947694267/
> >
> > eGroups.com Home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/
> >http://www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> FreeLotto.com is the only internet site to offer three free
> chances a day to win $1,000,000.00. We've already had two
> $1,000,000.00 jackpot winners and thousands of other cash
> prizes. You could be a $1,000,000.00 winner tonight!
>http://click.egroups.com/1/445/5/_/3457/_/947726974/
>
> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
> --http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
>
>
Gee, Don, this is starting to sound pretty one sided. You bring up
several points that I hadn't considered. I guess the thing to do is to buy
a smaller motor. I will look and see what Jim MIchalak recommends.
Thanks again for taking the time to help me with this problem.
----- Original Message -----From:Donald HodgesSent:Tuesday, January 11, 2000 9:14 PMSubject:[bolger] Re: outboard wellChuck, I dunno about the pro's but the cons are intrusion on your cockpit space, and (more significant I think) noise and fumes in the cockpit. On a sailboat, the further impact of not being able to raise the motor for sailing without bringing the motor even further forward into the cockpit. I had a 26-foot production sailboat in the '70's (Columbia 26) which, among its other vices, had an in-cockpit motor well (for a 6 hp 2-stroke). To get rid of the drag for sailing, I had to remove the motor and store it, but that wasn't the end of it - I had to install a fiberglass fairing plug in the well to stop the fountain which welled up from the , er, well when under sail. My friends in their Pearson 26's (a much more satisfactory boat) had spring-loaded parallelogram motor mounts over the stern; as soon as they got under way, they just popped their engine clear of the water and did a horizon job on me as I either dogged along dragging the prop or wrestled with stowing the iron genny which probably weighed close to your 125 lb.I would not own or even sail on a friend's boat with an outboard in a well <g>. There is a reason Ole Evinrude named it an "outboard". The Glen-L dory I'm starting has a well, but I will beef up the transom and hang the outboard on it. There is a further "con" for a planing boat - the well reduces the aft planing area and slows the boat, while raising the power and speed required to get on plane.'Scuse me if I sound rabid, but that motor well almost ruined my first "big" boat experience. The Columbia had two saving virtues: it was cheap (for obvious-now reasons) and spacious for my two toddlers at the time. Their Mom never did get used to the other nasty habit though... in a gust, the rudder was undersized and the boat would round up and luff like crazy, rattling our bones, and no way to stop it.Don Hodges
dhodges@...
http://www.ecoastlife.com
Your Cyber-Vacation - Loafing on the Emerald Coast
Small Boats, Building, Fishing, Paddling, Rowing, Sailing----- Original Message -----From:Chuck LeinweberSent:Tuesday, January 11, 2000 7:20 PMSubject:[bolger] outboard wellGuys:I just got plans for Jim Michalak's Caprice:I have this nice Honda 9.9 four stroke, and would like to use it on this boat. The motor at 125 lbs. might be a little heavy to hang on the transom, though. What are the general pros and cons of outboard wells at the aft of the cockpit area? Also what would be some design considerations for such a well?I have posed this question to Jim, but have not yet got his reply.eGroups.com Home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communicationseGroups.com Home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000, Chuck Leinweber wrote:
much--it sips gas, spits far less gas and oil into the water, and has
plenty of power to push my funky boat around the lake or river.
I recommend the 4-stroke, for environmental, moral, and tonal reasons. If
the ethical stuff doesn't appeal, the lower pitch of the motor, which
makes it seem a lot quieter and easier to take, is worth the cash.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
> Gee, Don, this is starting to sound pretty one sided. You bring upNot so long ago, I purchased a 5hp Nissan 4-stroke engine. I like it very
> several points that I hadn't considered. I guess the thing to do is
> to buy a smaller motor. I will look and see what Jim MIchalak
> recommends.
much--it sips gas, spits far less gas and oil into the water, and has
plenty of power to push my funky boat around the lake or river.
I recommend the 4-stroke, for environmental, moral, and tonal reasons. If
the ethical stuff doesn't appeal, the lower pitch of the motor, which
makes it seem a lot quieter and easier to take, is worth the cash.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
Chuck, I dunno about the pro's but the cons are
intrusion on your cockpit space, and (more significant I think) noise and fumes
in the cockpit. On a sailboat, the further impact of not being able to
raise the motor for sailing without bringing the motor even further forward into
the cockpit. I had a 26-foot production sailboat in the '70's (Columbia
26) which, among its other vices, had an in-cockpit motor well (for a 6 hp
2-stroke). To get rid of the drag for sailing, I had to remove the motor
and store it, but that wasn't the end of it - I had to install a fiberglass
fairing plug in the well to stop the fountain which welled up from the , er,
well when under sail. My friends in their Pearson 26's (a much more
satisfactory boat) had spring-loaded parallelogram motor mounts over the stern;
as soon as they got under way, they just popped their engine clear of the water
and did a horizon job on me as I either dogged along dragging the prop or
wrestled with stowing the iron genny which probably weighed close to your 125
lb.
I would not own or even sail on a friend's boat with
an outboard in a well <g>. There is a reason Ole Evinrude named it
an "outboard". The Glen-L dory I'm starting has a well, but I will beef up
the transom and hang the outboard on it. There is a further "con" for a
planing boat - the well reduces the aft planing area and slows the boat, while
raising the power and speed required to get on plane.
'Scuse me if I sound rabid, but that motor well almost
ruined my first "big" boat experience. The Columbia had two saving
virtues: it was cheap (for obvious-now reasons) and spacious for my two toddlers
at the time. Their Mom never did get used to the other nasty habit
though... in a gust, the rudder was undersized and the boat would round up and
luff like crazy, rattling our bones, and no way to stop
it.
Don Hodges
dhodges@...
http://www.ecoastlife.com
Your Cyber-Vacation - Loafing on the Emerald Coast
Small Boats, Building, Fishing, Paddling, Rowing, Sailing
dhodges@...
http://www.ecoastlife.com
Your Cyber-Vacation - Loafing on the Emerald Coast
Small Boats, Building, Fishing, Paddling, Rowing, Sailing
----- Original Message -----From:Chuck LeinweberSent:Tuesday, January 11, 2000 7:20 PMSubject:[bolger] outboard wellGuys:I just got plans for Jim Michalak's Caprice:I have this nice Honda 9.9 four stroke, and would like to use it on this boat. The motor at 125 lbs. might be a little heavy to hang on the transom, though. What are the general pros and cons of outboard wells at the aft of the cockpit area? Also what would be some design considerations for such a well?I have posed this question to Jim, but have not yet got his reply.eGroups.com Home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications
Guys:
I just got plans for Jim Michalak's Caprice:
I have this nice Honda 9.9 four stroke, and would like to use it on this
boat. The motor at 125 lbs. might be a little heavy to hang on the
transom, though. What are the general pros and cons of outboard wells at the
aft of the cockpit area? Also what would be some design
considerations for such a well?
I have posed this question to Jim, but have not yet got his
reply.
Actually, chuck, you might be OK with this hanging on
the transom. Remember, that boat includes ballast of about, what, 700 lbs
either as water or steel bars in the midsection. I used to have a Honda
7.5 stuck way out on one of those up 'n down brackets on and O'Day 222 and it
didn't appreciably affect trim.
Are
you going to build it? Soon? That's a neat design and looks as easy
to build as a boat that big can get.
Robert & Amy Lundy
St. Petersburg,
fla.
robert@...
amy@...
-----Original Message-----
From:Chuck Leinweber [mailto:duckworks@...]
Sent:January 11, 2000 8:21 PM
To:bolger@egroups.com; boatdesign@onelist.com
Subject:[bolger] outboard wellGuys:I just got plans for Jim Michalak's Caprice:I have this nice Honda 9.9 four stroke, and would like to use it on this boat. The motor at 125 lbs. might be a little heavy to hang on the transom, though. What are the general pros and cons of outboard wells at the aft of the cockpit area? Also what would be some design considerations for such a well?I have posed this question to Jim, but have not yet got his reply.eGroups.com Home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications