Re: [bolger] Cheap construction and longevity
That's bad luck. One thing about fir ply is that it
holds up for ever. I have some out back in saw
hourses that has been in ground contact for 10 yrs,
every so foten the fastening, which were stapples or
something, rot out and need replacement, but the
plywood just keeps it together. Its too bad about the
birch.
--- Hannes <h.kuehtreiber@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
On 4 Jan 2002, at 1:24, thomas dalzell wrote:<BR>
<BR>
thomas,<BR>
the bow was resting on a sawhorse (3 ft) and the stern
on old car <BR>
tyres - lower to let the rain flow of the flat bottom
better. <BR>
<BR>
Appearently didnt make any difference ...<BR>
<BR>
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holds up for ever. I have some out back in saw
hourses that has been in ground contact for 10 yrs,
every so foten the fastening, which were stapples or
something, rot out and need replacement, but the
plywood just keeps it together. Its too bad about the
birch.
--- Hannes <h.kuehtreiber@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
On 4 Jan 2002, at 1:24, thomas dalzell wrote:<BR>
<BR>
thomas,<BR>
the bow was resting on a sawhorse (3 ft) and the stern
on old car <BR>
tyres - lower to let the rain flow of the flat bottom
better. <BR>
<BR>
Appearently didnt make any difference ...<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
On 4 Jan 2002, at 1:24, thomas dalzell wrote:
thomas,
the bow was resting on a sawhorse (3 ft) and the stern on old car
tyres - lower to let the rain flow of the flat bottom better.
Appearently didnt make any difference ...
> If its on the ground, you are going to have trouble.
> You may anyway, but ground contact is fatal.
>
>
> --- Hannes <h.kuehtreiber@...> wrote:
>
> <HR>
> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> big sigh: <BR>
> I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr
> last summer. <BR>
> left her out in the open upside down. <BR>
> about THREE WEEKS later the boat had checked all over (
>
I wouldn't discourage you from using not-marine grade,
I have used both, but you can't go by the gradings.
Some stuff is great some sucks. If you are going to
use lumberyard stuff, you need to test it. Voids and
finish quality are a bigger problems to grade for than
delamination, if you are sheathing the heck out of
everything. I realy haven't had any ply that was
reasonably sellected fail, or the scraps delaminate
when left out in the weather, or boilled.
NOt all epoxy is anything like equal, so price is only
one consideration. I tried about 4 different brands
on on boat. I had to re-build one hull when one of
the rbands with a cheesze like consistency messed up
my project. This was a kind of humourous situation
because the hulls where tortured ply, and the problem
wasn't conclusively apparent until I had totally
fitted out the first hull, and moved on to the second.
Can't beat that for value. I seriously recomend the
Gougeon notch test and a variety of other tests
depending on what you think your most severe use will
be. Sunlight, plastic creep, cracking, ease of
sheathing, chemical sensitivity...
______________________________________________________
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I have used both, but you can't go by the gradings.
Some stuff is great some sucks. If you are going to
use lumberyard stuff, you need to test it. Voids and
finish quality are a bigger problems to grade for than
delamination, if you are sheathing the heck out of
everything. I realy haven't had any ply that was
reasonably sellected fail, or the scraps delaminate
when left out in the weather, or boilled.
NOt all epoxy is anything like equal, so price is only
one consideration. I tried about 4 different brands
on on boat. I had to re-build one hull when one of
the rbands with a cheesze like consistency messed up
my project. This was a kind of humourous situation
because the hulls where tortured ply, and the problem
wasn't conclusively apparent until I had totally
fitted out the first hull, and moved on to the second.
Can't beat that for value. I seriously recomend the
Gougeon notch test and a variety of other tests
depending on what you think your most severe use will
be. Sunlight, plastic creep, cracking, ease of
sheathing, chemical sensitivity...
______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
If its on the ground, you are going to have trouble.
You may anyway, but ground contact is fatal.
--- Hannes <h.kuehtreiber@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
big sigh: <BR>
I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr
last summer. <BR>
left her out in the open upside down. <BR>
about THREE WEEKS later the boat had checked all over (
______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
You may anyway, but ground contact is fatal.
--- Hannes <h.kuehtreiber@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
big sigh: <BR>
I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr
last summer. <BR>
left her out in the open upside down. <BR>
about THREE WEEKS later the boat had checked all over (
______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
--- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
I just went back and re-read the American Plywood Association design
specification and I now believe that the cheapest plywood which they
would recommend in a wet exterior application would be the "APA
Structural 1 Rated Sheathing EXP" [listed 2nd from the top of page
13]. It seems intended for heavy industrial uses and I have no doubt
that is would be durable, though not pretty.
It is made entirely of "C" grade laminations and is of a "group 1"
wood, which here on the westcoast would most likely be Douglas Fir.
There are several types of pine listed in the APA chart so it is hard
to guess which one PB&F are thinking of. They don't recommend "D"
grade laminations in exterior wet applications so CDX would be out.
[I still bet that it would work, especially if you laminated it so
the "D" side was always interior.]
the "marine" with an MDO face, so no surprise it is expensive.
> In a letter to me from PB&F, they state that "marine grade" plywoodshould be used and Fir or Pine is okay.
I just went back and re-read the American Plywood Association design
specification and I now believe that the cheapest plywood which they
would recommend in a wet exterior application would be the "APA
Structural 1 Rated Sheathing EXP" [listed 2nd from the top of page
13]. It seems intended for heavy industrial uses and I have no doubt
that is would be durable, though not pretty.
It is made entirely of "C" grade laminations and is of a "group 1"
wood, which here on the westcoast would most likely be Douglas Fir.
There are several types of pine listed in the APA chart so it is hard
to guess which one PB&F are thinking of. They don't recommend "D"
grade laminations in exterior wet applications so CDX would be out.
[I still bet that it would work, especially if you laminated it so
the "D" side was always interior.]
> If I could find MDO cheaper, I would use it.It is interesting that the APA guide describes the MDO as being
the "marine" with an MDO face, so no surprise it is expensive.
Pine what? Yellow pine ply?
______________________________________________________
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______________________________________________________
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Bob I agree with that perspective, but there is a
creaping rot of luxury afoot. The question I was
asking was like asking how to build a Model T Ford,
versus a modern SUV with air conditioning and
cup-holders. I like SUVs, but I know the Model Ts
worked in certain situations also, but we forget.
These boats aren't ferraris, but when something as
fabulous for boat construction comes along as Epoxy
saturation, its hard to resist, but its also hard to
justify when much better boats could be made from the
same stack of stuff. I was at Shoal Water cruises in
Largo, though not to sail. They were running a
charter business with Black Skimmers that didn't look
Sheathed, though I can't really remember. Makes you
wonder what is really required.
I'm guessing that one could make the decision to go
cheap<BR>
very easily however at 15,000 pounds that's another
question. A<BR>
disposable boat at 100 pounds is realistic but is it
at 15,000? I<BR>
think that in real terms folks know, as a practical
matter, when to<BR>
gold plate and when to go cheap but often we are
driven by that<BR>
personal ideology. And the older we get the more
so.<BR>
Bob Chamberland<BR>
______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
creaping rot of luxury afoot. The question I was
asking was like asking how to build a Model T Ford,
versus a modern SUV with air conditioning and
cup-holders. I like SUVs, but I know the Model Ts
worked in certain situations also, but we forget.
These boats aren't ferraris, but when something as
fabulous for boat construction comes along as Epoxy
saturation, its hard to resist, but its also hard to
justify when much better boats could be made from the
same stack of stuff. I was at Shoal Water cruises in
Largo, though not to sail. They were running a
charter business with Black Skimmers that didn't look
Sheathed, though I can't really remember. Makes you
wonder what is really required.
I'm guessing that one could make the decision to go
cheap<BR>
very easily however at 15,000 pounds that's another
question. A<BR>
disposable boat at 100 pounds is realistic but is it
at 15,000? I<BR>
think that in real terms folks know, as a practical
matter, when to<BR>
gold plate and when to go cheap but often we are
driven by that<BR>
personal ideology. And the older we get the more
so.<BR>
Bob Chamberland<BR>
______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
In a letter to me from PB&F, they state that "marine grade" plywood should be used and Fir or Pine is okay.
If I could find MDO cheaper, I would use it. With the one smooth side, finishing would be much easier and if it can stand up to the wind, rain, snow, ice, etc. that a road sign is exposed to, the boat should be long lived.
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If I could find MDO cheaper, I would use it. With the one smooth side, finishing would be much easier and if it can stand up to the wind, rain, snow, ice, etc. that a road sign is exposed to, the boat should be long lived.
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Iterpolating prices which we have paid recently for plywood where IThis is a very good point.
>work, in rough numbers, the difference in price is about $1 board
>foot for the sheathing versus $3 for the marine plywood. On the
>Illinois that could amount to nearly a $16,000 difference in purchase
>price. I could take $16K and put it into some teak and brass and get
>a better return on investment at resale time.
My profession (video and film) is undergoing a revolution. Where once
upon a time there were only *very* expensive tools, most projects got
done more or less "the right way." Now with Apple computers, cheap
and good (enough) camera, etc, it's possible to do things at a price
that wouldn't even cover paying for stock using a 16mm camera. More
and more, being a good producer means figuring out how to get the
most money on the screen for a particular project. Sometimes that
means shooting cheap cameras so you can pay for a first-rate make-up
artist. Sometimes it mean paying more for someone like Bob Wise to
shoot steadycam to avoid even more money for dollies, etc. And
sometimes it mean shooting the works and going first-class all the
way. Most often (on my projects) it means doing everything on the
cheap, and keeping the parameters very, very small.
This why I get such a kick out of reading Bolger. Whether his
problems are academic (canard) or real (LMII) I love seeing how his
mind can get to the essence of what is really needed, and what can be
done without.
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
For everything you wanted to know about plywood specifications see
the American Plywood Association "Plywood Design Specification" at
URL:http://www.apawood.org/pdfs/managed/Y510-T.pdf
It looks like the el cheapo CDX a.k.a. "APA Rated Sheathing Exp 1",
which I was considering, is rated for exterior use, but not for wet
conditions. Though their similar plywood "APA Rated Struct 1
Sheathing Exp 1" is rated for exterior and wet conditions.
Iterpolating prices which we have paid recently for plywood where I
work, in rough numbers, the difference in price is about $1 board
foot for the sheathing versus $3 for the marine plywood. On the
Illinois that could amount to nearly a $16,000 difference in purchase
price. I could take $16K and put it into some teak and brass and get
a better return on investment at resale time.
The difference in bending strength rating is 1190 psi for the
sheathing versus 1430 psi for the marine ply. 83% less in strength
and 33% lower in price. They both have identical "wet" condition
rating, if I am reading this APA design guide correctly.
Does anybody know which type of plywood is specified by PB&F?
Both these strengths would be actually greater in practice due to the
lamination effect, quoting from the APA: "Where plywood is bonded
into multiple layers and used in strips ... the resulting member may
be stronger than a single sheet, due to randomization of defects. In
such a case, allowable stresses could be higher." I bet that
the "Struct 1 CDX sheathing" would benefit more from this
randomization of defects because it starts out with larger defects
than the marine grade.
[PS They also write about scarf joints in this documents saying that
an 8:1 scarf is as good as seamless.]
[PPS Has anybody else notice that
http://www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.htmlsells epoxy for $33 gallon
delivered? That price is not far from oil paint.]
the American Plywood Association "Plywood Design Specification" at
URL:http://www.apawood.org/pdfs/managed/Y510-T.pdf
It looks like the el cheapo CDX a.k.a. "APA Rated Sheathing Exp 1",
which I was considering, is rated for exterior use, but not for wet
conditions. Though their similar plywood "APA Rated Struct 1
Sheathing Exp 1" is rated for exterior and wet conditions.
Iterpolating prices which we have paid recently for plywood where I
work, in rough numbers, the difference in price is about $1 board
foot for the sheathing versus $3 for the marine plywood. On the
Illinois that could amount to nearly a $16,000 difference in purchase
price. I could take $16K and put it into some teak and brass and get
a better return on investment at resale time.
The difference in bending strength rating is 1190 psi for the
sheathing versus 1430 psi for the marine ply. 83% less in strength
and 33% lower in price. They both have identical "wet" condition
rating, if I am reading this APA design guide correctly.
Does anybody know which type of plywood is specified by PB&F?
Both these strengths would be actually greater in practice due to the
lamination effect, quoting from the APA: "Where plywood is bonded
into multiple layers and used in strips ... the resulting member may
be stronger than a single sheet, due to randomization of defects. In
such a case, allowable stresses could be higher." I bet that
the "Struct 1 CDX sheathing" would benefit more from this
randomization of defects because it starts out with larger defects
than the marine grade.
[PS They also write about scarf joints in this documents saying that
an 8:1 scarf is as good as seamless.]
[PPS Has anybody else notice that
http://www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.htmlsells epoxy for $33 gallon
delivered? That price is not far from oil paint.]
big sigh:
I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr last summer.
left her out in the open upside down.
about THREE WEEKS later the boat had checked all over (would
not really worry me), little black fungus dots covered everything
(starting to get nervous) and a couple of weeks later the glass strip
started to crack and come off the chines in big chunks (almost
worried).
went to the lake this weekend and dug the boat out of the snow to
see if anything was left at all (the supports had collapsed under the
weight of the snow, and the boat broke the maststep while settling
on the broken sticks).
oh well, no worries ...
hannes
I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr last summer.
left her out in the open upside down.
about THREE WEEKS later the boat had checked all over (would
not really worry me), little black fungus dots covered everything
(starting to get nervous) and a couple of weeks later the glass strip
started to crack and come off the chines in big chunks (almost
worried).
went to the lake this weekend and dug the boat out of the snow to
see if anything was left at all (the supports had collapsed under the
weight of the snow, and the boat broke the maststep while settling
on the broken sticks).
oh well, no worries ...
hannes
On 2 Jan 2002, at 8:00, Bill Samson wrote:
> I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood,
> Weldwood glue, with polyester/glass taping at the chines. No epoxy
> coating, no glassing of the bottom, water-based paint.
>
> I kept it outside all year round, uncovered, and it needed re-painting
> every year. Eventually after 4 years the ply started to check and
> minor delamination round the edges of panels started.
>
There was a story in Woodenboat about the rebuilding of one of the big
motor yachts from the Pacific North West "Principia" I believe. The guy
that did the rebuilding had some of the galvanized fastenings out of
her. He said that the fastenings that were fir to fir had corroded more
since he removed them than they had since the boat was built. The ones
in oak did not fair well.
HJ
Luke S wrote:
motor yachts from the Pacific North West "Principia" I believe. The guy
that did the rebuilding had some of the galvanized fastenings out of
her. He said that the fastenings that were fir to fir had corroded more
since he removed them than they had since the boat was built. The ones
in oak did not fair well.
HJ
Luke S wrote:
>
> Has anyone here ever tried galvanized nails in a saltwater enviroment ?
> Naturally the life of the nails would depend on the quality of the
> galvanizing, but I've often wondered about it.
> ----- Original Message -----
>
Very wisely said.
As in my letter included with the plans:
"On project such as this, cutting expenses to ACX grade on the hull doesn't seem practical, but it's your time and money, and it'll be your boat. Therefore your choice. We would prefer marine grade with Fir or Pine okay. This project is one of my personal all time favorites."
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As in my letter included with the plans:
"On project such as this, cutting expenses to ACX grade on the hull doesn't seem practical, but it's your time and money, and it'll be your boat. Therefore your choice. We would prefer marine grade with Fir or Pine okay. This project is one of my personal all time favorites."
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The subject of cheap construction seems to come up about every two
months on this board. I always thought there was a logical answer to
the question but after getting burned a few times I find that the
answer depends on personal philosophy far more than inherently
practical considerations. Some folks could not possibly build a boat
with luan underlayment, rags, oil paint etc. Their ego (and I don't
mean that as a put down) would not allow it. On the other hand some
could not possibly buy a sheet of Brynzeel plywood under any
circumstances. Others can make a decision between when to go cheap and
when to spend the bucks. In the realm of a 100 pound sterling
expenditure I'm guessing that one could make the decision to go cheap
very easily however at 15,000 pounds that's another question. A
disposable boat at 100 pounds is realistic but is it at 15,000? I
think that in real terms folks know, as a practical matter, when to
gold plate and when to go cheap but often we are driven by that
personal ideology. And the older we get the more so.
Bob Chamberland
months on this board. I always thought there was a logical answer to
the question but after getting burned a few times I find that the
answer depends on personal philosophy far more than inherently
practical considerations. Some folks could not possibly build a boat
with luan underlayment, rags, oil paint etc. Their ego (and I don't
mean that as a put down) would not allow it. On the other hand some
could not possibly buy a sheet of Brynzeel plywood under any
circumstances. Others can make a decision between when to go cheap and
when to spend the bucks. In the realm of a 100 pound sterling
expenditure I'm guessing that one could make the decision to go cheap
very easily however at 15,000 pounds that's another question. A
disposable boat at 100 pounds is realistic but is it at 15,000? I
think that in real terms folks know, as a practical matter, when to
gold plate and when to go cheap but often we are driven by that
personal ideology. And the older we get the more so.
Bob Chamberland
--- In bolger@y..., "Bill Samson" <Bill.Samson@t...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I think a lot depends on where the boat is kept in the winter.
>
> I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood,
Weldwood glue, with polyester/glass taping at the chines. No epoxy
coating, no glassing of the bottom, water-based paint.
>
> I kept it outside all year round, uncovered, and it needed
re-painting every year. Eventually after 4 years the ply started to
check and minor delamination round the edges of panels started.
>
> So - I got 4 years for an outlay of 100 pounds Sterling ($150ish)
plus the three weekends she took to build. Pretty good value I'd say.
I'd like to add that she's STILL being used, with Bondo patching from
time to time.
>
> I guess that if she'd been protected from frost, there'd have been
much less deterioration.
>
> The trouble with a bigger boat is that it's pretty expensive to have
it trailed off to the landfill site at the end of her useful life,
though some optimistic soul might be persuaded to take her away for
free as a 'restoration project'.
>
> Bill
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Has anyone here ever tried galvanized nails in a saltwaterenviroment ?
The traditional Novi (Nova Scotia) construction is for nailed carvel
planing. I assume the nails are galvanized boat nails, and I also
assume that the galvanizing on a good boat nail was far and away
better than what you would find on run-of-the-mill Home Depot nail.
Anyway, when you see rust streaks from the seams of a planked wooden
boat, it's from a galvanized fastener. I suppose that they should be
good for 10 to 30 years, and even more if they were epoxy-protected.
PHV
Has anyone here ever tried galvanized nails in a saltwater enviroment ?
Naturally the life of the nails would depend on the quality of the
galvanizing, but I've often wondered about it.
Naturally the life of the nails would depend on the quality of the
galvanizing, but I've often wondered about it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Samson" <Bill.Samson@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 6:00 PM
Subject: [bolger] Cheap construction and longevity
> Hi,
>
> I think a lot depends on where the boat is kept in the winter.
>
> I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood, Weldwood
glue, with polyester/glass taping at the chines. No epoxy coating, no
glassing of the bottom, water-based paint.
>
> I kept it outside all year round, uncovered, and it needed re-painting
every year. Eventually after 4 years the ply started to check and minor
delamination round the edges of panels started.
>
> So - I got 4 years for an outlay of 100 pounds Sterling ($150ish) plus the
three weekends she took to build. Pretty good value I'd say. I'd like to
add that she's STILL being used, with Bondo patching from time to time.
>
> I guess that if she'd been protected from frost, there'd have been much
less deterioration.
>
> The trouble with a bigger boat is that it's pretty expensive to have it
trailed off to the landfill site at the end of her useful life, though some
optimistic soul might be persuaded to take her away for free as a
'restoration project'.
>
> Bill
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Hi,
I think a lot depends on where the boat is kept in the winter.
I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood, Weldwood glue, with polyester/glass taping at the chines. No epoxy coating, no glassing of the bottom, water-based paint.
I kept it outside all year round, uncovered, and it needed re-painting every year. Eventually after 4 years the ply started to check and minor delamination round the edges of panels started.
So - I got 4 years for an outlay of 100 pounds Sterling ($150ish) plus the three weekends she took to build. Pretty good value I'd say. I'd like to add that she's STILL being used, with Bondo patching from time to time.
I guess that if she'd been protected from frost, there'd have been much less deterioration.
The trouble with a bigger boat is that it's pretty expensive to have it trailed off to the landfill site at the end of her useful life, though some optimistic soul might be persuaded to take her away for free as a 'restoration project'.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think a lot depends on where the boat is kept in the winter.
I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood, Weldwood glue, with polyester/glass taping at the chines. No epoxy coating, no glassing of the bottom, water-based paint.
I kept it outside all year round, uncovered, and it needed re-painting every year. Eventually after 4 years the ply started to check and minor delamination round the edges of panels started.
So - I got 4 years for an outlay of 100 pounds Sterling ($150ish) plus the three weekends she took to build. Pretty good value I'd say. I'd like to add that she's STILL being used, with Bondo patching from time to time.
I guess that if she'd been protected from frost, there'd have been much less deterioration.
The trouble with a bigger boat is that it's pretty expensive to have it trailed off to the landfill site at the end of her useful life, though some optimistic soul might be persuaded to take her away for free as a 'restoration project'.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]