Re: [bolger] Re: Quality control?
I do think that money put in a tender will be repayed
many times, Whatever one does with disposable 30
footers, they will all need that little Tortoise or
EP.
--- lecabotin <lecabotin@...> wrote:
<
______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
many times, Whatever one does with disposable 30
footers, they will all need that little Tortoise or
EP.
--- lecabotin <lecabotin@...> wrote:
<
______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
Peter,
Some of this is my fault for tagging the Wyo project
with my questions on Cheap. I was actually thinking
of Anhinga or a modified Martha Jane 23' not 30 +.
I can build as well as anyone, but I am not convinced
that it pays in all cases, since the market for resale
on these boats can be brutal. Life is short, and we
never know how short. Until Epoxy is proven to be not
only as expensive as red wine, but as healthy as red
wine, I am going to give its use due consideration.
So far the epoxy is winning, I throw it at everything.
There is a serial Bolger thing happening, people
aren't just building one boat, but flotilas worth. In
the absense of charter income, or serious resale, one
has to wonder why bother building them like they were
going to last a lifetime.
______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
Some of this is my fault for tagging the Wyo project
with my questions on Cheap. I was actually thinking
of Anhinga or a modified Martha Jane 23' not 30 +.
I can build as well as anyone, but I am not convinced
that it pays in all cases, since the market for resale
on these boats can be brutal. Life is short, and we
never know how short. Until Epoxy is proven to be not
only as expensive as red wine, but as healthy as red
wine, I am going to give its use due consideration.
So far the epoxy is winning, I throw it at everything.
There is a serial Bolger thing happening, people
aren't just building one boat, but flotilas worth. In
the absense of charter income, or serious resale, one
has to wonder why bother building them like they were
going to last a lifetime.
______________________________________________________
Send your holiday cheer withhttp://greetings.yahoo.ca
> The very idea that our lives are merely theAny particular object (e.g. any particular boat) has a different
> passage of hours that go either billed or unbilled at our nominal
> wage rate is ridiculous.
value to each individual. The "market value" is simply the amount
agreed on between buyer or seller. Same with the cost of our time and
energy.
The only important question is "How much do you want the boat?"
Peter
The whole "discounting your labor" argument is a red herring -- the
refuge of the unimaginative nattering nabobs of negativism. Do you
"discount your labor" when you go skiing, go to Vegas, go to the
shrink? I don't think so. The very idea that our lives are merely the
passage of hours that go either billed or unbilled at our nominal
wage rate is ridiculous. On both of my boat projects I been helped
considerably by men who'd bought plans but had yet dared to cut the
first piece of wood. Were there efforts bought at a discount, or
richly reward by the opportunity to say "I helped fasten the stem in
that fine craft." !!!
Work is work -- vocation. For most of us (all of us?) boat building
is avocation and it's value is beyond measure!
YIBB,
David
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
refuge of the unimaginative nattering nabobs of negativism. Do you
"discount your labor" when you go skiing, go to Vegas, go to the
shrink? I don't think so. The very idea that our lives are merely the
passage of hours that go either billed or unbilled at our nominal
wage rate is ridiculous. On both of my boat projects I been helped
considerably by men who'd bought plans but had yet dared to cut the
first piece of wood. Were there efforts bought at a discount, or
richly reward by the opportunity to say "I helped fasten the stem in
that fine craft." !!!
Work is work -- vocation. For most of us (all of us?) boat building
is avocation and it's value is beyond measure!
YIBB,
David
>Discounting our labor because it's a hobby and labor of love,C.E.P.
>building and buying is probably the same in cost. One has residual
>value, the other doesn't. I'll take the one with no interest or
>mortgage payments........sweat equity?
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
Hi all,
My own experience on using or not good material is depending of the
use of what you build. Two years ago we (my girlfriends and I) build
in our house a Bolger Pirogue with cheap material (It will take the
same time if it was good one)we did a 250 miles run between Montreal
and ottawa in 10 days, since this time we are building an AS39, so
the Pirogue is outside and don`t move from more than a year but I saw
what was building with poor materials when I want to give her to a
friends...I was so sorry about her. In an other way our building
process of Le Cabotin is from an other view, we will lived aboard, I
need to thrust every details in the boat, so I use the best that I
can afford (Meranty Ply, lot of Epoxy, good structural wood, etc...)
the building process is a big part of the pleasure, it take the time
needs to make the things well...what you will save now, will be paid
later surely....
PS: The boat as now is new stell bottom ballasted and his store until
May 2002, our garage is not heated.
Jean et Gaby
My own experience on using or not good material is depending of the
use of what you build. Two years ago we (my girlfriends and I) build
in our house a Bolger Pirogue with cheap material (It will take the
same time if it was good one)we did a 250 miles run between Montreal
and ottawa in 10 days, since this time we are building an AS39, so
the Pirogue is outside and don`t move from more than a year but I saw
what was building with poor materials when I want to give her to a
friends...I was so sorry about her. In an other way our building
process of Le Cabotin is from an other view, we will lived aboard, I
need to thrust every details in the boat, so I use the best that I
can afford (Meranty Ply, lot of Epoxy, good structural wood, etc...)
the building process is a big part of the pleasure, it take the time
needs to make the things well...what you will save now, will be paid
later surely....
PS: The boat as now is new stell bottom ballasted and his store until
May 2002, our garage is not heated.
Jean et Gaby
Discounting our labor because it's a hobby and labor of love, building and buying is probably the same in cost. One has residual value, the other doesn't. I'll take the one with no interest or mortgage payments........sweat equity?
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Last but not least, If you were renting instead of living on the boat,
what about the money gone to rent, never to be seen again, or in the
interest on mortgage payments. One way or the other you have "disposed"
of the money, might as well live on a boat while disposing of it.
HJ
David Ryan wrote:
what about the money gone to rent, never to be seen again, or in the
interest on mortgage payments. One way or the other you have "disposed"
of the money, might as well live on a boat while disposing of it.
HJ
David Ryan wrote:
>
> Another point of view --
>
> Let's just suppose you've found the Bolger box/contraption of your
> dreams. I'll take you all the place you reasonable expect you might
> be able to go, do all the things you want to do, carry all the thing
> you want to carry. And let's say it'll cost $15K (I can't afford
> anything more!) to build and take a year.
>
> Let's also suppose that a similar used production boat will cost you
> $100K and take 3 months to get ship shape.
>
> Now let's say we enjoy ourselves for a good 5 years. Both boats have
> their good points and their bad points, but neither is superior or
> inferior -- so that part's a wash. Let's suppose the upkeep and other
> running costs are similar.
>
> Now it's time to get out, sell the boat, sink it, burn it, whatever.
> Time to be out from under the obligation to have fun in your boat.
>
> Think you can get $15K for your Bolger box monstrosity? Probably not.
> For the sake of the argument let's say you sell the motor for $1.5K
> and burn the rest.
>
> So, you've got to get $86.5 for the other boat just to be even. Plus
> you never had the pleasure or the pride of building it. Plus you had
> to get $100K together by hook or by crook. If you borrowed it, you've
> had the note over you the whole time you were "enjoying it" If you
> bought it outright, you've lost about $25 in interest.
>
> So build a $15K "disposable" boat? If you don't want to throw away
> money, don't get involved with boats.
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
> >Bolgerados,
> > I've been reading with interest the discussions over"cheap" ways
> >to get a boat built and I certainly applaud crafty ways of getting
> >things done quickly without taking out a second mortage but......
> > Aren't we selling ourselves short,in the long run,by using
> >inferior quality materials,especially with the bigger boats? It almost
> >gives me the willys just thinking about a 30something foot boat being
> >considered as"disposable".
> > Seeing how most of us(all of us?) enjoy boating as a leisure
> >activity and not as a money making venture,where does the so
> >called"workboat" finish/ethic come from? These boats we love so much
> >will not "work" or earn us a penny but will certainly cost us real
> >money and real time.
> > Unless we are building a boat under contract for a client,what
> >sort of time restraints are we really under?Take away the time factor
> >and building becomes enjoyable and we can easily afford the time to
> >save up and acquire durable materials/quality products.
> > Please do not misunderstand me on this,I am not advocating some
> >sort of snobbish approach to boatbuilding à la WOODENBOAT and I
> >certainly do not worship any particular species of tree.In fact,I
> >prefer MDO over the higher priced exotic plywoods and think epoxy is
> >the best little helper a non-craftsman can use to pardon a multitude
> >of sins.
> > Whether you use particle-board or Bruzyneel(sp) ply,there is a
> >good chance it will take you about as long to cut in half.The finished
> >boat will go the same route,taking just about the same amount of
> >time.The heart break happens when after hundreds,if not thousands,of
> >hours of dedicated labour are spent bringing your dream to life along
> >with all sorts of personal sacrifices to have it all degraded because
> >of cheap(inferior) materials.
> > A thing of beauty should last and be a treat for us!The
> >intelligent use of good quality materials combined with established
> >building methods should produce a boat which will not require big
> >bucks within a year or two just for maintenance........
> > Anyway,that's just my 2 little cents worth.Thanks for reading
> >it.
> > Sincerely,
> >Peter Lenihan,doing his best to change the public perception that just
> >because a boat is amateur built doesn't mean it has to be junk or
> >cheap,from the shores of the cold dark St.Lawrence..................
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Bolger rules!!!
> >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> >- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
> >MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> C.E.P.
> 134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
> New York, New York 10001
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
> (212) 247-0296
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Another point of view --
Let's just suppose you've found the Bolger box/contraption of your
dreams. I'll take you all the place you reasonable expect you might
be able to go, do all the things you want to do, carry all the thing
you want to carry. And let's say it'll cost $15K (I can't afford
anything more!) to build and take a year.
Let's also suppose that a similar used production boat will cost you
$100K and take 3 months to get ship shape.
Now let's say we enjoy ourselves for a good 5 years. Both boats have
their good points and their bad points, but neither is superior or
inferior -- so that part's a wash. Let's suppose the upkeep and other
running costs are similar.
Now it's time to get out, sell the boat, sink it, burn it, whatever.
Time to be out from under the obligation to have fun in your boat.
Think you can get $15K for your Bolger box monstrosity? Probably not.
For the sake of the argument let's say you sell the motor for $1.5K
and burn the rest.
So, you've got to get $86.5 for the other boat just to be even. Plus
you never had the pleasure or the pride of building it. Plus you had
to get $100K together by hook or by crook. If you borrowed it, you've
had the note over you the whole time you were "enjoying it" If you
bought it outright, you've lost about $25 in interest.
So build a $15K "disposable" boat? If you don't want to throw away
money, don't get involved with boats.
YIBB,
David
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
Let's just suppose you've found the Bolger box/contraption of your
dreams. I'll take you all the place you reasonable expect you might
be able to go, do all the things you want to do, carry all the thing
you want to carry. And let's say it'll cost $15K (I can't afford
anything more!) to build and take a year.
Let's also suppose that a similar used production boat will cost you
$100K and take 3 months to get ship shape.
Now let's say we enjoy ourselves for a good 5 years. Both boats have
their good points and their bad points, but neither is superior or
inferior -- so that part's a wash. Let's suppose the upkeep and other
running costs are similar.
Now it's time to get out, sell the boat, sink it, burn it, whatever.
Time to be out from under the obligation to have fun in your boat.
Think you can get $15K for your Bolger box monstrosity? Probably not.
For the sake of the argument let's say you sell the motor for $1.5K
and burn the rest.
So, you've got to get $86.5 for the other boat just to be even. Plus
you never had the pleasure or the pride of building it. Plus you had
to get $100K together by hook or by crook. If you borrowed it, you've
had the note over you the whole time you were "enjoying it" If you
bought it outright, you've lost about $25 in interest.
So build a $15K "disposable" boat? If you don't want to throw away
money, don't get involved with boats.
YIBB,
David
>Bolgerados,C.E.P.
> I've been reading with interest the discussions over"cheap" ways
>to get a boat built and I certainly applaud crafty ways of getting
>things done quickly without taking out a second mortage but......
> Aren't we selling ourselves short,in the long run,by using
>inferior quality materials,especially with the bigger boats? It almost
>gives me the willys just thinking about a 30something foot boat being
>considered as"disposable".
> Seeing how most of us(all of us?) enjoy boating as a leisure
>activity and not as a money making venture,where does the so
>called"workboat" finish/ethic come from? These boats we love so much
>will not "work" or earn us a penny but will certainly cost us real
>money and real time.
> Unless we are building a boat under contract for a client,what
>sort of time restraints are we really under?Take away the time factor
>and building becomes enjoyable and we can easily afford the time to
>save up and acquire durable materials/quality products.
> Please do not misunderstand me on this,I am not advocating some
>sort of snobbish approach to boatbuilding à la WOODENBOAT and I
>certainly do not worship any particular species of tree.In fact,I
>prefer MDO over the higher priced exotic plywoods and think epoxy is
>the best little helper a non-craftsman can use to pardon a multitude
>of sins.
> Whether you use particle-board or Bruzyneel(sp) ply,there is a
>good chance it will take you about as long to cut in half.The finished
>boat will go the same route,taking just about the same amount of
>time.The heart break happens when after hundreds,if not thousands,of
>hours of dedicated labour are spent bringing your dream to life along
>with all sorts of personal sacrifices to have it all degraded because
>of cheap(inferior) materials.
> A thing of beauty should last and be a treat for us!The
>intelligent use of good quality materials combined with established
>building methods should produce a boat which will not require big
>bucks within a year or two just for maintenance........
> Anyway,that's just my 2 little cents worth.Thanks for reading
>it.
> Sincerely,
>Peter Lenihan,doing his best to change the public perception that just
>because a boat is amateur built doesn't mean it has to be junk or
>cheap,from the shores of the cold dark St.Lawrence..................
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
Bolgerados,
I've been reading with interest the discussions over"cheap" ways
to get a boat built and I certainly applaud crafty ways of getting
things done quickly without taking out a second mortage but......
Aren't we selling ourselves short,in the long run,by using
inferior quality materials,especially with the bigger boats? It almost
gives me the willys just thinking about a 30something foot boat being
considered as"disposable".
Seeing how most of us(all of us?) enjoy boating as a leisure
activity and not as a money making venture,where does the so
called"workboat" finish/ethic come from? These boats we love so much
will not "work" or earn us a penny but will certainly cost us real
money and real time.
Unless we are building a boat under contract for a client,what
sort of time restraints are we really under?Take away the time factor
and building becomes enjoyable and we can easily afford the time to
save up and acquire durable materials/quality products.
Please do not misunderstand me on this,I am not advocating some
sort of snobbish approach to boatbuilding à la WOODENBOAT and I
certainly do not worship any particular species of tree.In fact,I
prefer MDO over the higher priced exotic plywoods and think epoxy is
the best little helper a non-craftsman can use to pardon a multitude
of sins.
Whether you use particle-board or Bruzyneel(sp) ply,there is a
good chance it will take you about as long to cut in half.The finished
boat will go the same route,taking just about the same amount of
time.The heart break happens when after hundreds,if not thousands,of
hours of dedicated labour are spent bringing your dream to life along
with all sorts of personal sacrifices to have it all degraded because
of cheap(inferior) materials.
A thing of beauty should last and be a treat for us!The
intelligent use of good quality materials combined with established
building methods should produce a boat which will not require big
bucks within a year or two just for maintenance........
Anyway,that's just my 2 little cents worth.Thanks for reading
it.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,doing his best to change the public perception that just
because a boat is amateur built doesn't mean it has to be junk or
cheap,from the shores of the cold dark St.Lawrence..................
I've been reading with interest the discussions over"cheap" ways
to get a boat built and I certainly applaud crafty ways of getting
things done quickly without taking out a second mortage but......
Aren't we selling ourselves short,in the long run,by using
inferior quality materials,especially with the bigger boats? It almost
gives me the willys just thinking about a 30something foot boat being
considered as"disposable".
Seeing how most of us(all of us?) enjoy boating as a leisure
activity and not as a money making venture,where does the so
called"workboat" finish/ethic come from? These boats we love so much
will not "work" or earn us a penny but will certainly cost us real
money and real time.
Unless we are building a boat under contract for a client,what
sort of time restraints are we really under?Take away the time factor
and building becomes enjoyable and we can easily afford the time to
save up and acquire durable materials/quality products.
Please do not misunderstand me on this,I am not advocating some
sort of snobbish approach to boatbuilding à la WOODENBOAT and I
certainly do not worship any particular species of tree.In fact,I
prefer MDO over the higher priced exotic plywoods and think epoxy is
the best little helper a non-craftsman can use to pardon a multitude
of sins.
Whether you use particle-board or Bruzyneel(sp) ply,there is a
good chance it will take you about as long to cut in half.The finished
boat will go the same route,taking just about the same amount of
time.The heart break happens when after hundreds,if not thousands,of
hours of dedicated labour are spent bringing your dream to life along
with all sorts of personal sacrifices to have it all degraded because
of cheap(inferior) materials.
A thing of beauty should last and be a treat for us!The
intelligent use of good quality materials combined with established
building methods should produce a boat which will not require big
bucks within a year or two just for maintenance........
Anyway,that's just my 2 little cents worth.Thanks for reading
it.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,doing his best to change the public perception that just
because a boat is amateur built doesn't mean it has to be junk or
cheap,from the shores of the cold dark St.Lawrence..................