Re: [bolger] Re: Douglas Fir ('Hem-fir')now rot resistence

I generally use 'treated' lumber for all framing and stringers for boatbuilding. Usually rip 2 x 4's or 1 by's. As long as they are reasonably dry, epoxy holds well and I have had no problems. They are usually a poor grade of wood though and seem to warp badly.

Ken Abrahams

----- Original Message -----
From: Sam Glasscock
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Douglas Fir ('Hem-fir')now rot resistence

The pressure treated wood available locally is the
best of the general run of lumberyard woods,
particularly the 5/4 decking boards--straight grained
and largely clear. It comes damp and heavy with
mineral salts, however. Can this wood be effectively
glued with epoxy or other waterproof glues? Does it
need to "season" before taking glue or paint? Weight
aside, this would be nice stuff if could be used in
place of either more expensive woods or the usual
s-p-f lumberyard junk. Sam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:

> I just picked up the usual industry info at the local
> lumber yard, where I was looking at some Pressure
> treated wood.
>
> The warnings are severe enough to make me question
> working with the stuff.

Around here, there were several playgrounds with
epuipment bult of the stuff.

All of this fairly-new equipment is now being torn-
out and replaced with non-treated wood.

I would never put treated wood into one of my cheap
boats.

Would rather have rot in the boat than in me.

Max

I just picked up the usual industry info at the local
lumber yard, where I was looking at some Pressure
treated wood.

The warnings are severe enough to make me question
working with the stuff. Certainly a few sticks for a
ground contact stucture would be one thing, but
warnings about how to wash clothes contaminated with
the stuff, and wearing gloves at all time, make me
wonder about how closely I would want to work with the
stuff, particularly indoors.

Epoxy will glue almost anything, though some of this
stuff comes impregnated with silicone as a
waterproofer, and that might be asking rather much.
If it is wet, it needs to be dry. Some epoxies will
stick to wet wood, but they can't occupy the space the
water is already in, and then the water can't get out.

--- Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
The pressure treated wood available locally is the 
best of the general run of lumberyard woods, 
particularly the 5/4 decking boards--straight
grained 
and largely clear. It comes damp and heavy
with 
mineral salts, however. Can this wood be
effectively 
glued with epoxy or other waterproof glues? Does
it 
need to "season" before taking glue or
paint? Weight 
aside, this would be nice stuff if could be used
in 
place of either more expensive woods or the usual 
s-p-f lumberyard junk. Sam 
 
--- rlspell2000 <richard@...>
wrote:

> All of the rot prone areas on my boat are

getting

> pressure treated 
> wood. Keel, centerboard case, framing for

non-self

> draining cockpit, 
> etc. 
> 
> --- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" 
> <boatbuilding@g...> wrote: 
> > A couple of days ago someone posted a link

to a

> Wood Manual. It 
> was a PDF format of 489 pages and 13

megabytes. I

> downloaded, 
> printed, and studied it tying to find a

replacement

> for Douglas Fir. 
> > 
> > Everything about rot resistance is

accurate. None

> of the new 
> growth lumber is any good and a lot of it as

in

> Douglas Fir is not 
> consistant in it's strengths anymore. The

fast

> grown stock in 
> managed areas is not as strong, not as shock 
> resistant, etc. 
> > 
> > A quandry at best. A lot of the

reliance on DF

> for boats was 
> developed from the old growth and new stuff like

I

> viewed locally is 
> terrible. It's hit and miss. 
> > 
> > Jeff 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have

been

> removed] 
> 
>

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The pressure treated wood available locally is the
best of the general run of lumberyard woods,
particularly the 5/4 decking boards--straight grained
and largely clear. It comes damp and heavy with
mineral salts, however. Can this wood be effectively
glued with epoxy or other waterproof glues? Does it
need to "season" before taking glue or paint? Weight
aside, this would be nice stuff if could be used in
place of either more expensive woods or the usual
s-p-f lumberyard junk. Sam

--- rlspell2000 <richard@...> wrote:

> All of the rot prone areas on my boat are getting
> pressure treated
> wood. Keel, centerboard case, framing for non-self
> draining cockpit,
> etc.
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck"
> <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> > A couple of days ago someone posted a link to a
> Wood Manual. It
> was a PDF format of 489 pages and 13 megabytes. I
> downloaded,
> printed, and studied it tying to find a replacement
> for Douglas Fir.
> >
> > Everything about rot resistance is accurate. None
> of the new
> growth lumber is any good and a lot of it as in
> Douglas Fir is not
> consistant in it's strengths anymore. The fast
> grown stock in
> managed areas is not as strong, not as shock
> resistant, etc.
> >
> > A quandry at best. A lot of the reliance on DF
> for boats was
> developed from the old growth and new stuff like I
> viewed locally is
> terrible. It's hit and miss.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

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You can't beat old growth, but the new stuff is still
wood. If you seal it it won't rot, and you can work
around the strength issues.

While building Fat Eeek! I didn't have any appropraite
3/4 material for the bulkheads. I had some 2/4. So I
used material that was 6/4x2/4. That's 33% weaker by
the width, and more than twice as strong and 3 times
as stiff by the depth. More glue area in the corner
webs. More split resistance to nails. Same weight.

In a simmilar way, just because a particular species
is weaker doesn't mean you can't do anything about it
in the sections.

If I had a criticism of Bolger's designs, and it isn't
really a cricism, I would say that he will complicate
the assembly to gain cheapness, but not to gain
efficiency. That's the beauty of their being
affordable. But if you are working your way around
structural issues, you should posibly look at some of
the higher concept approaches of the gougeons, and
others that milk huge structural gains out of cheap
material (sometimes expensive also).

More generaly, there are a lot of things one can
subsitute plywood for. For instance, Anhinga has a
spar that is square and something like 2/4 on the
sides, 6/4 on the compresion side, and 3/4 on the
curved tension side. One could subsitute plywood for
the side panels, use quality lumber for the 3/4s, and
use 1/8" ply and 1" core for the compresion side. The
money might work out about the same, since both core
and good wood are reasonable expensive. Labour would
be more on the glueing, but less on the sawing out and
planing of materials. The big payoff would be in a
significantly lighter stick.

--- Jeff Blunck <boatbuilding@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
A couple of days ago someone posted a link to a Wood
Manual. It was a PDF format of 489 pages and 13
megabytes. I downloaded, printed, and studied it
tying to find a replacement for Douglas Fir.
 
 
Everything about rot resistance is accurate.
None of the new growth lumber is any good and a lot of
it as in Douglas Fir is not consistant in it's
strengths anymore. The fast grown stock in
managed areas is not as strong, not as shock
resistant, etc. 

______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca

All of the rot prone areas on my boat are getting pressure treated
wood. Keel, centerboard case, framing for non-self draining cockpit,
etc.

--- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> A couple of days ago someone posted a link to a Wood Manual. It
was a PDF format of 489 pages and 13 megabytes. I downloaded,
printed, and studied it tying to find a replacement for Douglas Fir.
>
> Everything about rot resistance is accurate. None of the new
growth lumber is any good and a lot of it as in Douglas Fir is not
consistant in it's strengths anymore. The fast grown stock in
managed areas is not as strong, not as shock resistant, etc.
>
> A quandry at best. A lot of the reliance on DF for boats was
developed from the old growth and new stuff like I viewed locally is
terrible. It's hit and miss.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A couple of days ago someone posted a link to a Wood Manual. It was a PDF format of 489 pages and 13 megabytes. I downloaded, printed, and studied it tying to find a replacement for Douglas Fir.

Everything about rot resistance is accurate. None of the new growth lumber is any good and a lot of it as in Douglas Fir is not consistant in it's strengths anymore. The fast grown stock in managed areas is not as strong, not as shock resistant, etc.

A quandry at best. A lot of the reliance on DF for boats was developed from the old growth and new stuff like I viewed locally is terrible. It's hit and miss.

Jeff

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Interesting John,

I am just outside Toronto. While I am not in the
lumber business, My Sthil chainsaw mill and I have an
interest in forest from here to New Brunswwick.

TD
--- John Bell <jmbell@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

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Hi Paul,

The Western Wood Products Assn website, www.wwpa.org, has links to a
lot of interesting "wood" sites including a link to the Forest Service
Forest Products Laboratory publications. One of the interesting charts
in this manual is that concerning rot resistence. Most of the softwood
lumber we are likely to use from local lumber yards are not likely to
have any rot resistence at all. Of the pines only "old growth"
heartwood has moderate resistence. Of the philipine "mohagany"
varieties only dark red Meranti has moderate resistenc to rot. I
believe in general in any species that are considered rot resistent,
only heartwood is considered. Locally, douglasfir 5/4 stock is
available in large boards intended for stair treads. Looking over this
stock it was pretty impressive (from the usual stock). As it happened
I was looking for something for my Teal mast and this was going to
cost way more than I was interested in spending but it would have been
great bar the cost.

Bob Chamberland

-- In bolger@y..., "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@w...> wrote:

> Haven't seen it come up yet in this thread, but it seems I remember

hearing

> some time back that hemlock is one of the worst woods in terms of
> rot-resistance, hence I plan to avoid 'hem-fir'. Since the quality

of 2x4

> stock around these parts is of such a shamefully poor quality

lately, I plan

> to use 'mahogany' (another catch-all misnomer) decking for the

structural

> wood on my Micro, and probably doug-fir decking stock for a birds-mouth
> hollow mast. My experience with this 'mahogany' is that it is very

easy to

> work with, and I've seen decks made of the stuff out in the weather

for 10

> years, with no signs of rot, so it should be very nice for chine

logs and

> bulkhead frames. I plan to use fir decking (the dark, grainy,

reddish stuff)

> for a birds-mouth hollow mast; used it for canoe gunnels last year, and
> found it had very good grain properties for something like a mast - very
> springy and strong, long, straight grain runs, fairly long lengths
> available, glues well...... I do worry about weight though - the

stuff is

> pretty dense! Any comments?
>
> Paul Lefebvre, back from a month in the southern hemisphere and

trying to

> reason with the frozen-slop season here on Cape Cod......

Haven't seen it come up yet in this thread, but it seems I remember hearing
some time back that hemlock is one of the worst woods in terms of
rot-resistance, hence I plan to avoid 'hem-fir'. Since the quality of 2x4
stock around these parts is of such a shamefully poor quality lately, I plan
to use 'mahogany' (another catch-all misnomer) decking for the structural
wood on my Micro, and probably doug-fir decking stock for a birds-mouth
hollow mast. My experience with this 'mahogany' is that it is very easy to
work with, and I've seen decks made of the stuff out in the weather for 10
years, with no signs of rot, so it should be very nice for chine logs and
bulkhead frames. I plan to use fir decking (the dark, grainy, reddish stuff)
for a birds-mouth hollow mast; used it for canoe gunnels last year, and
found it had very good grain properties for something like a mast - very
springy and strong, long, straight grain runs, fairly long lengths
available, glues well...... I do worry about weight though - the stuff is
pretty dense! Any comments?

Paul Lefebvre, back from a month in the southern hemisphere and trying to
reason with the frozen-slop season here on Cape Cod......

I apologize for seemingly dominating the group with the Wyo. I'll soon clam up and start building.

For now though, I studied the Wyo plans again last night a believe that most of the uses of the 1 1/2" stringers are for gluing with maybe the exception of the two center intercostals. ( I-Beam ). The intercostals are the genius behind building such a long boat capable of speed without intricate and complicated building. In combination with the vertical sides, it'll be very strong.

I can probably get by with good Southern Yellow Pine on everything else and use Ash or Red Oak for the intercoastals. Each end of the stringers are butted against a bulkhead and that will be well slathered in epoxy. Simply coating the the stringers with epoxy will eliminate most rot issues. Using treated lumber would work well enough too and eliminate the epoxy except where it's been cut. Not that sawing treated lumber is without it's hazzards but I have a lot of dust masks around.

I say this since the red oak, ash, and clear yellow pine is readily available. It can be special ordered in the exact sizes I need and would not be any more expensive than having DF milled. ( I don't have the tools to do volume ripping and sanding)

BTW, all stringers in the Wyo are internal only. None are exposed to weather. Humidity should be the only exposure and the Wyo has terrific venting designed into it through the entire length. The few places it doesn't get air flow, I intend on epoxy coating then filling with foam for flotation.

Jeff

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Harry, I'm in Fort Collins, Colorado.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: Harry W. James
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Douglas Fir

Where do you live?

HJ

jhbjap wrote:
>
> I went and looked at some suppliers for Douglas Fir and it's not good
> stuff. They all claim it's the best they can get. One agreed to
> look hard considering the 175 BF I'm looking to buy.
>
> Is there a replacement? I don't mind epoxy coating if necessary.
>
> How about:
>
> Cedar
> Red Oak
> White Oak
> White Pine
> Yellow Pine
> Aspen
>
> Thought maybe someone has used something else with good results. I
> used white pine on my Frolic but coated well with epoxy plus the
> shock loads are obviously small compared to the Wyo.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm in Georgia. Prior to the near shutdown of Canadian timber industry
caused by this trade dispute, we were getting starting to get a lot of wood
from Tembec, Domtar, Canfor and the like here.

I get to Canada several times a year because I'm working around the pulp and
paper industry. I was in BC a lot this summer and fall right when it all
hit the fan. From what I could see the impact was devastating on a lot of
mill towns there. Thousands of people laid off with little hope for jobs to
replace the ones at the mill. Some parts of the paper industry are starting
to pick up out there, but overall it's still pretty grim.

I sometimes get into various spot in Ontario: Ft. Frances, Thunder Bay,
North Bay, St. Catharines, and Toronto. Next week it's Quebec City and Trois
Rivieres. The week after I hit Bangor, ME for a week. By the end of that
trip I'll be ready to go somewhere warm! Where are you?

JB

----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas dalzell" <proaconstrictor@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 11:57 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Douglas Fir

| John,
|
| what state are you in, if you don't mind my asking.
| I'm in Ont. so we get the OK stuff. I don't know if
| the softwood war is over yet (its never over until the
| next time anyway).
|
| --- John Bell <jmbell@...> wrote:
|
| <HR>
| <html><body>
|
|
|
| ______________________________________________________________________
| Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
| - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
| - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
|

Sadly, the south Georgia old growth longleaf yellow pine you are speaking of
is all gone. All that is left is young, knotty, better used as pulpwood
loblolly pine. It's not all bad, but the best cuts all seem to wind up
pressure treated for outdoor deck construction.

JB

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Crandall" <crandall@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Douglas Fir

| On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, David Ryan wrote:
| > Out here I can get enough clear pine to build a barn. But it seems
| > *much* softer/more breakable than Doug Fir. Would it make an suitable
| > substitute for DF in something like the chinelogs of a Wyo?
|
| In a word, no.
|
| There's lot of different kinds of pine. Since you're in the East, the
| most available pine is White Pine, the softest and lest rot resistant of
| available american pine.
|
| Now, if you were writing from southern Georgia, it might be something else
| entirely.
|
| We have pine in Kansas, but our best native woods are oak, walnut, and
| hackberry. (We're the #1 walnut lumber state!)
|
| -Chris
|
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
| - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
| - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|

John,

what state are you in, if you don't mind my asking.
I'm in Ont. so we get the OK stuff. I don't know if
the softwood war is over yet (its never over until the
next time anyway).

--- John Bell <jmbell@...> wrote:

<HR>
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All the 2x lumber in these parts is pine. Well most of it anyway.

Before the US and Canada got into this softwood lumber war this past year,
we were getting a lot more spruce (black spruce probably) from Quebec and
Ontario. I'm on my way to Quebec next week where I'm sure to hear an earful
about softwood tariffs if that thing is still going on.

So we are back to using locally grown loblolly pine for 2-bys. Most of it is
plantation grown fast with wide rings and lots of big knots. I hate it.

JB

----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas dalzell" <proaconstrictor@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Douglas Fir

| I would generally avoid pine. I would use 2x lumber,
| and just cut the cores out, then if there are abusive
| knots, just ensure they are on the compression
| surface. Put the whole thing together, and then wrap
| it with ply and/or glass, for a molded look.
|
| With the volume of work required in Wyo, I would
| prefer stuff that was closser to perfectto start with.
|
|
|
| ______________________________________________________________________
| Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
| - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
| - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|

I still think it is an interesting question. There
are all kinds of softwood scattered over the east
coast, and a long tradition of boatbuilding. Is it
really necesary for PCB/Storey to bring in their wood
from the west coats. I know its the breadbasket for
wood, but...
--- brucehallman <brucehallman@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>

> I went and looked at some suppliers for Douglas

Fir 
You should ask PCB. Here in Califorina, Doug Fir
is available. Try 
to locate a "commercial" lumber
broker. 
 
</tt>

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I would generally avoid pine. I would use 2x lumber,
and just cut the cores out, then if there are abusive
knots, just ensure they are on the compression
surface. Put the whole thing together, and then wrap
it with ply and/or glass, for a molded look.

With the volume of work required in Wyo, I would
prefer stuff that was closser to perfectto start with.

______________________________________________________________________
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I can get good wood around here, but at one point I
had to cut it all in half to get it in my vehicle.
Later I ripped it into 3/4x6/4 strips and glued,
clamped and screwed the scarphed segments directly to
the plywood during assembly. Did this add any time to
the process? Not so you would notice, working by
myself the assembly was probably easier.

>I think our host Greg Carlson spliced his long pieces

together. Given 
today's lumber, I'm not sure you'll have much of a
choice but to do 
that yourself. 

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Can't beat ladder grade sitka spruce. Takes screws
better than fir. On a boat this size, the weight of
any wood species isn't likely to matter. You would be
hard put to double the weight of cedar on any other
likely wood, and the weight of cedar would be about
300#, in other words, substituting any weight within
the probable range, up to hickory or Lignum would only
add a few hundred pounds.

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> I went and looked at some suppliers for Douglas Fir

You should ask PCB. Here in Califorina, Doug Fir is available. Try
to locate a "commercial" lumber broker.

To avoid confusion, I should have said I avoid using "Hem Fir"
structurally.

"Harry W. James" wrote:

>
> Perhaps because Doug fir is such a better wood, and they are looking to
> upgrade the image. That's what I always thought.
>
> The inside of my house is trimmed almost exclusively in clear varnished
> hemlock. It is really good for that, lots of character, grain variations
> and neat color. I think it looks way better than any Oak. Clear Doug Fir
> is kinda boring especially if it's real good stuff. The local hemlock is
> also good for flooring, as it is harder than Doug Fir. That said, I
> don't like to use it structurally.
>
> > The site mentions that many of the other fir species are sold
> > under the designation "hem-fir" (i.e. hemlock-fir) -- perhaps
> > because they often grow together and it's not worth the mill's
> > trouble to sort them out?
>
> HJ

--- In bolger@y..., "jhbjap" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:

> I went and looked at some suppliers for Douglas Fir and it's not good
> stuff. They all claim it's the best they can get. One agreed to
> look hard considering the 175 BF I'm looking to buy.
>
> Is there a replacement? I don't mind epoxy coating if necessary.
>
> How about:
>
> Cedar
> Red Oak
> White Oak
> White Pine
> Yellow Pine
> Aspen
>
> Thought maybe someone has used something else with good results. I
> used white pine on my Frolic but coated well with epoxy plus the
> shock loads are obviously small compared to the Wyo.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jeff

Hi Jeff, If you want the best dope on wood, wood products etc your
first source of reference should be the US Forest Service. Try
www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documents/fplgtr/fplg. You might consider Philipine
mohagany for framing and I don't mean luan ply. If for some reason the
above website doesn't show up, what you want is the manual put out by
the Forest Products Laboratory of the US Forest Service.

Bob Chamberland

Perhaps because Doug fir is such a better wood, and they are looking to
upgrade the image. That's what I always thought.

The inside of my house is trimmed almost exclusively in clear varnished
hemlock. It is really good for that, lots of character, grain variations
and neat color. I think it looks way better than any Oak. Clear Doug Fir
is kinda boring especially if it's real good stuff. The local hemlock is
also good for flooring, as it is harder than Doug Fir. That said, I
don't like to use it structurally.

> The site mentions that many of the other fir species are sold
> under the designation "hem-fir" (i.e. hemlock-fir) -- perhaps
> because they often grow together and it's not worth the mill's
> trouble to sort them out?

Peter,
Perhaps BC Fir........;-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan

--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...> wrote:
>
> While all this discussion of woods is underway, let me ask a
question
> that I've had for a long time. PCB often calls for "fir", especially
> where strength and gluing properties are both important. Now I know
> about Douglas Fir, but I'm pretty sure that falls in the category of
> acceptable but not what he really prefers. What is he talking about,
> and where would you get it?
>
> Peter

I misspoke. In fact, Douglas Fir is not a 'true fir." The other
five species I mentioned are.

For more than you'd care to know about Douglas Fir and the true
firs (marketed as "hem-fir"), read about "western species" on the
website of the Western Wood Products Association, at
www.wwpa.org

In a nutshell, they say that "hem-fir" is not quite a strong as
Douglas fir, but more attractive -- "light and bright in color,
varying from a creamy, nearly-white to a light, straw-brown color."

--- In bolger@y..., "s_paskey" <stephen@p...> wrote:

> Maybe by designating "fir," PCB is simply saying that any true
fir species will do?

Having done a lot of my growing up in Oregon, I was schooled to think
that Doug Fir is about the butt kickingest wood there is, especially
for building things. Most USDF/USDA type brochures bear this out.

>While all this discussion of woods is underway, let me ask a question
>that I've had for a long time. PCB often calls for "fir", especially
>where strength and gluing properties are both important. Now I know
>about Douglas Fir, but I'm pretty sure that falls in the category of
>acceptable but not what he really prefers. What is he talking about,
>and where would you get it?
>
>Peter
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

C.E.P.
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296

Where do you live?

HJ

jhbjap wrote:

>
> I went and looked at some suppliers for Douglas Fir and it's not good
> stuff. They all claim it's the best they can get. One agreed to
> look hard considering the 175 BF I'm looking to buy.
>
> Is there a replacement? I don't mind epoxy coating if necessary.
>
> How about:
>
> Cedar
> Red Oak
> White Oak
> White Pine
> Yellow Pine
> Aspen
>
> Thought maybe someone has used something else with good results. I
> used white pine on my Frolic but coated well with epoxy plus the
> shock loads are obviously small compared to the Wyo.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Peter: Below is a link to a description of softwood species from
the Northern-Pacific web site.

http://www.north-pacific.com/dept/sftwd_species/

They include a number of firs (pacific silver fir, white fir, grand
fir, alpine fir, and noble fir), but describe Douglas Fir as one of
the strongest softwoods, often preferred for structural purposes.

The site mentions that many of the other fir species are sold
under the designation "hem-fir" (i.e. hemlock-fir) -- perhaps
because they often grow together and it's not worth the mill's
trouble to sort them out?

Maybe by designating "fir," PCB is simply saying that any true fir
species will do?

Steve Paskey

--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...> wrote:
>
> PCB often calls for "fir", especially where strength and gluing
properties are both important. Now I know about Douglas Fir, but
I'm pretty sure that falls in the category of acceptable but not what
he really prefers. What is he talking about, and where would you
get it?
>
> Peter

While all this discussion of woods is underway, let me ask a question
that I've had for a long time. PCB often calls for "fir", especially
where strength and gluing properties are both important. Now I know
about Douglas Fir, but I'm pretty sure that falls in the category of
acceptable but not what he really prefers. What is he talking about,
and where would you get it?

Peter

It's coffee time anyway, so here's my two bits...

Does the dimensional wood carry any real load, or is it just there to hold
the plywood together? If the plywood forms a big girder, then that will
carry the load, not the chines and stringers. The wood's ability to glue
and hold fastenings will be more important than flexibility.

Not sure that hardwoods aren't resilient anyway -- lapstrake boats are
generally framed in hardwood (oak, elm) and a lot of them used to be planked
with hardwood (mostly oak?)as well.

There was a negative comment about red oak earlier. It glues better than
white (I tried to laminate white oak just once with epoxy, very carefully,
but it failed big time) and is as resistant to rot as many softwoods -- if
the end grain is sealed red oak will last well, I believe. I used pine
(type unknown) for canoe gunwales a few years ago. The canoe was stored
outside and the gunwales were soft and punky in a couple of years, so be
very careful which pine you are buying. Check out the forestry/wood sites
for guidance.

Jamie Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Blunck [mailto:boatbuilding@...]
Sent: January 10, 2002 3:13 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Douglas Fir

If you where to run the Wyo at hull speeds or just above, clear pine would
work, but power her up and start slamming, or get caught out where she
doesn't belong and we may wish for DF to be installed.

Most hardwoods are stronger but not as good as being resilient and flexible.
Hardwoods would splinter or crack where DF would spring back. Not sure
Mohagany or Ash would be a good fit.

I can see a boat like the Wyo doing some flexing and torque twisting in
waves. Maybe not a lot but possibly enough for a hardwood to fail after a
while.

Has anyone worked with Soft Mable? Southern Yellow Pine?

Jeff

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hey Vince,

Thanks for the info. I just phoned our local lumberyard.
He quoted me $1.40 per board ft for clear d select pine
flooring in 6" wide 16ft lengths. Not too bad.

James Fuler

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince and Mary Ann Chew" <vachew@...>
To: "Bolger Group" <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 1:58 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Douglas Fir

> My local retail lumber yard carries 1 X 4 tongue & groove douglas fir
> PORCH FLOORING. Most of it is nearly clear. I had used some of it by
> ripping off the tongue and the groove where I didn't need the full 3
> 1/2" of 1 X 4 nominal. Then I asked the outside contractor sales rep if
> the mill could provide the 1 x 4 without milling the tongue and groove.
> He said he would check. The answer was "yes". It was beautiful, mostly
> clear, a lot of it straight grain. I have to check in my records file
> out at my shop for what I paid, but I recall thinking at the time that
> it was very reasonable. It came in random lengths from 10' to over 16'.
> BTW, I used regular CCA treated lumber for chine logs and any cleats on
> the inside of the hull bottom. It took glue and fasteners just fine.
>
>
> Vince Chew
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

If you where to run the Wyo at hull speeds or just above, clear pine would work, but power her up and start slamming, or get caught out where she doesn't belong and we may wish for DF to be installed.

Most hardwoods are stronger but not as good as being resilient and flexible. Hardwoods would splinter or crack where DF would spring back. Not sure Mohagany or Ash would be a good fit.

I can see a boat like the Wyo doing some flexing and torque twisting in waves. Maybe not a lot but possibly enough for a hardwood to fail after a while.

Has anyone worked with Soft Mable? Southern Yellow Pine?

Jeff

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, David Ryan wrote:

> Out here I can get enough clear pine to build a barn. But it seems
> *much* softer/more breakable than Doug Fir. Would it make an suitable
> substitute for DF in something like the chinelogs of a Wyo?

In a word, no.

There's lot of different kinds of pine. Since you're in the East, the
most available pine is White Pine, the softest and lest rot resistant of
available american pine.

Now, if you were writing from southern Georgia, it might be something else
entirely.

We have pine in Kansas, but our best native woods are oak, walnut, and
hackberry. (We're the #1 walnut lumber state!)

-Chris

Out here I can get enough clear pine to build a barn. But it seems
*much* softer/more breakable than Doug Fir. Would it make an suitable
substitute for DF in something like the chinelogs of a Wyo?

YIBB,

David

>Thanks for the info. I just phoned our local lumberyard.
>He quoted me $1.40 per board ft for clear d select pine
>flooring in 6" wide 16ft lengths. Not too bad.
>
>James Fuler
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Vince and Mary Ann Chew" <vachew@...>
>To: "Bolger Group" <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 1:58 PM
>Subject: [bolger] Re: Douglas Fir
>
>
>> My local retail lumber yard carries 1 X 4 tongue & groove douglas fir
>> PORCH FLOORING. Most of it is nearly clear. I had used some of it by
>> ripping off the tongue and the groove where I didn't need the full 3
>> 1/2" of 1 X 4 nominal. Then I asked the outside contractor sales rep if
>> the mill could provide the 1 x 4 without milling the tongue and groove.
>> He said he would check. The answer was "yes". It was beautiful, mostly
>> clear, a lot of it straight grain. I have to check in my records file
>> out at my shop for what I paid, but I recall thinking at the time that
>> it was very reasonable. It came in random lengths from 10' to over 16'.
>> BTW, I used regular CCA treated lumber for chine logs and any cleats on
>> the inside of the hull bottom. It took glue and fasteners just fine.
>>
>>
>> Vince Chew
>>
>>
>> Bolger rules!!!
>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
>> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
>> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

C.E.P.
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296

The Wyo uses about 100 sheets of plywood.

The DF needs are for 16 full length stringers of 1 1/2" stock. Each lengthwise half has 1 at the Chine, 1 at about 12" above the chine, 3 at the shear, 1 at the top of the side panels, and 2 for the top and bottom of the intracoastal.

16 * 50' is 800 linear ft or 150 BF. Add misc. stringers for bunks, cabinets, bulkheads etc. and you come up with an estimated 175 BF. With 33% waste on the 8/4 stock I need to purchase 230 BF.

I use the 175 as a finished product. Reality is about 230 rough sawn.

Hadn't thought of the treated lumber. That's usually southern yellow pine and it is very close to the properties of DF, just heavier.

I'll check on the flooring thing today also.

Great ideas guys!

Thanks Vince

Jeff

******************************************
From Badgerwood:

8/4 Ash $3.40 / BF or $782.00
8/4 Mahogany $5.75 / BF or $1322.00

I've worked with the Ash from Badgerwood before. Really nice stuff.

*****************************************

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My local retail lumber yard carries 1 X 4 tongue & groove douglas fir
PORCH FLOORING. Most of it is nearly clear. I had used some of it by
ripping off the tongue and the groove where I didn't need the full 3
1/2" of 1 X 4 nominal. Then I asked the outside contractor sales rep if
the mill could provide the 1 x 4 without milling the tongue and groove.
He said he would check. The answer was "yes". It was beautiful, mostly
clear, a lot of it straight grain. I have to check in my records file
out at my shop for what I paid, but I recall thinking at the time that
it was very reasonable. It came in random lengths from 10' to over 16'.
BTW, I used regular CCA treated lumber for chine logs and any cleats on
the inside of the hull bottom. It took glue and fasteners just fine.

Vince Chew

This was the number one hang up building my scooner -- in this day
and age where could I possibly find 2x stock that I could rip into
3/4x 1 1/2 staves of any meaningful length at all? So riddled with
knots are all the 2x out here, you'd be lucky if an four foot section
would be sound enough. I was starting to wonder if I could tack and
tape the scooner!

Then I found it. A 28 foot 2x12 that was perfectly clear. Wide
spaced, monoculture growth, but perfectly clear. It had been on the
top of the bundle and was discolored and mildly checked. I laid my
visa card down and took it home on the roof on my Civic.

From that one stick I got chinelogs, oversized sheerclamps, booms,
gaffs, and still have a bit left over.

I think our host Greg Carlson spliced his long pieces together. Given
today's lumber, I'm not sure you'll have much of a choice but to do
that yourself.

-D

>I was thinking about this: is 175 bf enough? Are you talking real 4/4
>thickness board-feet or that bogus "dressed" number you often get for
>construction lumber?
>
>It just seems that 175 bf isn't that much solid wood for a 50' boat.
>Maybe my own Wyoh isn't so out of reach after all?
>
>JB
>
>
>
>
>
>--- In bolger@y..., "jhbjap" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
>> I went and looked at some suppliers for Douglas Fir and it's not
>good
>> stuff. They all claim it's the best they can get. One agreed to
>> look hard considering the 175 BF I'm looking to buy.
>>
>> Is there a replacement? I don't mind epoxy coating if necessary.
>>
>> How about:
>>
>> Cedar
>> Red Oak
>> White Oak
>> White Pine
>> Yellow Pine
>> Aspen
>>
>> Thought maybe someone has used something else with good results. I
>> used white pine on my Frolic but coated well with epoxy plus the
>> shock loads are obviously small compared to the Wyo.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Jeff
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

C.E.P.
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296

Ok, last one on this issue!

Aspen: no, no, no! Not durable at all, very soft.

JB

--- In bolger@y..., "jhbjap" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> I went and looked at some suppliers for Douglas Fir and it's not
good
> stuff. They all claim it's the best they can get. One agreed to
> look hard considering the 175 BF I'm looking to buy.
>
> Is there a replacement? I don't mind epoxy coating if necessary.
>
> How about:
>
> Cedar
> Red Oak
> White Oak
> White Pine
> Yellow Pine
> Aspen
>
> Thought maybe someone has used something else with good results. I
> used white pine on my Frolic but coated well with epoxy plus the
> shock loads are obviously small compared to the Wyo.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jeff

I was thinking about this: is 175 bf enough? Are you talking real 4/4
thickness board-feet or that bogus "dressed" number you often get for
construction lumber?

It just seems that 175 bf isn't that much solid wood for a 50' boat.
Maybe my own Wyoh isn't so out of reach after all?

JB

--- In bolger@y..., "jhbjap" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> I went and looked at some suppliers for Douglas Fir and it's not
good
> stuff. They all claim it's the best they can get. One agreed to
> look hard considering the 175 BF I'm looking to buy.
>
> Is there a replacement? I don't mind epoxy coating if necessary.
>
> How about:
>
> Cedar
> Red Oak
> White Oak
> White Pine
> Yellow Pine
> Aspen
>
> Thought maybe someone has used something else with good results. I
> used white pine on my Frolic but coated well with epoxy plus the
> shock loads are obviously small compared to the Wyo.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jeff

I've never heard anyone say anything good about red oak. Gluing oak
is fraught with peril, too. Not to say it can't be done, but other
woods would be easier to deal with.

I've used yellow pine quite a bit on small boats. It's tough, but
hard to work and heavy.

I always figured on such a significant boat that I'd spring for some
good wood for the reletively small amount of solid lumber needed,
mahoghany for instance. But I've never priced it out either. If it's
$10/bf, then it's not too bad in the grand scheme of things. If it's
$30/bf, then it's more of a no brainer to use cheaper softwood.

Locally, I'd be tempted to use yellow poplar (actually a member of
the magnolia family and not a true poplar) for my dimensional lumber.
It's clear, fine grained, easily worked, and durable. It's fairly
inexpensive, too.

Cypress or ash might be worth looking at.

JB

--- In bolger@y..., "jhbjap" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> I went and looked at some suppliers for Douglas Fir and it's not
good
> stuff. They all claim it's the best they can get. One agreed to
> look hard considering the 175 BF I'm looking to buy.
>
> Is there a replacement? I don't mind epoxy coating if necessary.
>
> How about:
>
> Cedar
> Red Oak
> White Oak
> White Pine
> Yellow Pine
> Aspen
>
> Thought maybe someone has used something else with good results. I
> used white pine on my Frolic but coated well with epoxy plus the
> shock loads are obviously small compared to the Wyo.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jeff

I went and looked at some suppliers for Douglas Fir and it's not good
stuff. They all claim it's the best they can get. One agreed to
look hard considering the 175 BF I'm looking to buy.

Is there a replacement? I don't mind epoxy coating if necessary.

How about:

Cedar
Red Oak
White Oak
White Pine
Yellow Pine
Aspen

Thought maybe someone has used something else with good results. I
used white pine on my Frolic but coated well with epoxy plus the
shock loads are obviously small compared to the Wyo.

Thanks

Jeff

Re: [bolger] Re: Douglas Fir (&#39;Hem-fir&#39;)now rot resistence

Re: [bolger] Re: Douglas Fir ('Hem-fir')now rot resistence