sailing faster than the wind was :Re: Proa
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Rund" <trund1024@y...> wrote: "I
wasn't aware that following the wind was the slowest point of sail."
It's not, dead into the wind is the slowest point, it produces a
negative speed forward track. <grin>
Bruce Hector
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SunCoastRowingClub/
Home safe and sound after a pitch black row on a windy ICW to our 5am
morning show role. Went well, other than being cold, dark and too
windy, we had a ball and got some good PR for the new club.
wasn't aware that following the wind was the slowest point of sail."
It's not, dead into the wind is the slowest point, it produces a
negative speed forward track. <grin>
Bruce Hector
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SunCoastRowingClub/
Home safe and sound after a pitch black row on a windy ICW to our 5am
morning show role. Went well, other than being cold, dark and too
windy, we had a ball and got some good PR for the new club.
The pumpkin seed analogy makes a lot of sense. I wasn't aware that
following the wind was the slowest point of sail. I can see the wind
acting as the fingers when pointing up wind. And the sail is the
seed. Thanks.
following the wind was the slowest point of sail. I can see the wind
acting as the fingers when pointing up wind. And the sail is the
seed. Thanks.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@r...> wrote:
> How can a pumpkin seed come zipping out from between your fingers
even
> though you squeezed it slowly? (You can't exceed wind speed when
going
> straight downwind.)
>
> > Tom wrote:
> >
> >>> Silly question from a non-sailor:
> >>>
> >>> How can a boat sail faster than the wind? One of the boats is
> >>> predicted to reach over 50 knots in 27 knots of wind. Hmmm
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________________
> >
My Diablo is vile in a chop more than 2'( at full noise- 30+ MPH), but no more so than any other production boat with a shallow V or Flat bottomed hull. Speed is the major factor in comfort! If you want to go fast, expect some discomfort!
Hugo Tyson, Tasmania, Australia.
Don Tyson <tysond99@...> wrote:
Dumb question: Wouldn't some of the power sharpies be more accomodating in a proa configuration? wouldn't there be an anchoring benefit and a chop fighting benefit if a second hull were added of about half the length and width of the main hull? Sneakeasy must be awefull at anchor in a chop and under power in 1-2 foot seas (common on most bays) the skipper must have to be very vigilant.
One could anchor on a slight angle to quiet down the slapping and by anchoring fully broadside from the center of the outrigger they could create a calm swim area. in the lee.
any of these hulls probly don't roll much compare to other types of hulls but would still roll less with an outrigger.
Don Tyson
bruce@...wrote:
In 1990 Bolger published the
'minimum proa' article in SBJ
and in light of the 'need for
speed' recent thread, this is
'on topic'.
http://hallman.org/sbj/70/
At the end of the article he
writes: "the concept is too
radical and likely to become
obsolete...".
Is that what has happened
in the last 14 years? Or,
put another way, what is
Bolger's latest word on
the Proa?
Bolger rules!!!
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Hugo Tyson, Tasmania, Australia.
Don Tyson <tysond99@...> wrote:
Dumb question: Wouldn't some of the power sharpies be more accomodating in a proa configuration? wouldn't there be an anchoring benefit and a chop fighting benefit if a second hull were added of about half the length and width of the main hull? Sneakeasy must be awefull at anchor in a chop and under power in 1-2 foot seas (common on most bays) the skipper must have to be very vigilant.
One could anchor on a slight angle to quiet down the slapping and by anchoring fully broadside from the center of the outrigger they could create a calm swim area. in the lee.
any of these hulls probly don't roll much compare to other types of hulls but would still roll less with an outrigger.
Don Tyson
bruce@...wrote:
In 1990 Bolger published the
'minimum proa' article in SBJ
and in light of the 'need for
speed' recent thread, this is
'on topic'.
http://hallman.org/sbj/70/
At the end of the article he
writes: "the concept is too
radical and likely to become
obsolete...".
Is that what has happened
in the last 14 years? Or,
put another way, what is
Bolger's latest word on
the Proa?
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dumb question: Wouldn't some of the power sharpies be more accomodating in a proa configuration? wouldn't there be an anchoring benefit and a chop fighting benefit if a second hull were added of about half the length and width of the main hull? Sneakeasy must be awefull at anchor in a chop and under power in 1-2 foot seas (common on most bays) the skipper must have to be very vigilant.
One could anchor on a slight angle to quiet down the slapping and by anchoring fully broadside from the center of the outrigger they could create a calm swim area. in the lee.
any of these hulls probly don't roll much compare to other types of hulls but would still roll less with an outrigger.
Don Tyson
bruce@...wrote:
In 1990 Bolger published the
'minimum proa' article in SBJ
and in light of the 'need for
speed' recent thread, this is
'on topic'.
http://hallman.org/sbj/70/
At the end of the article he
writes: "the concept is too
radical and likely to become
obsolete...".
Is that what has happened
in the last 14 years? Or,
put another way, what is
Bolger's latest word on
the Proa?
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One could anchor on a slight angle to quiet down the slapping and by anchoring fully broadside from the center of the outrigger they could create a calm swim area. in the lee.
any of these hulls probly don't roll much compare to other types of hulls but would still roll less with an outrigger.
Don Tyson
bruce@...wrote:
In 1990 Bolger published the
'minimum proa' article in SBJ
and in light of the 'need for
speed' recent thread, this is
'on topic'.
http://hallman.org/sbj/70/
At the end of the article he
writes: "the concept is too
radical and likely to become
obsolete...".
Is that what has happened
in the last 14 years? Or,
put another way, what is
Bolger's latest word on
the Proa?
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tidlywinks!
Tom Rund <trund1024@...> wrote:Silly question from a non-sailor:
How can a boat sail faster than the wind? One of the boats is
predicted to reach over 50 knots in 27 knots of wind. Hmmm
Tom
Tom Rund <trund1024@...> wrote:Silly question from a non-sailor:
How can a boat sail faster than the wind? One of the boats is
predicted to reach over 50 knots in 27 knots of wind. Hmmm
Tom
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, bruce@h... wrote:
> >http://hallman.org/sbj/70/
> >
> > At the end of the article he
> > writes: "the concept is too
> > radical and likely to become
> > obsolete...".
> >
> > Is that what has happened
> > in the last 14 years? Or,
> > put another way, what is
> > Bolger's latest word on
> > the Proa?
>
> Here is the latest development:
>
>http://www.windjet.co.uk/water/competitors.php
>
> But for outright speed - a windsurfer is the fastest.
>
> Cheers, Nels
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tom
Lincoln's pumpkin seed is a good analogy. To expand on it a little,
you have two forces, thumb and finger representing pressure and
resistance. As the seed is squeezed between the two forces it
releases the energy through flight. If you were to lessen one of the
forces less energy would be developed--hence less flight.
Another force comes into play though, drag. If the seed is too
slippery it squeezes out sooner and travels less distance. Too much
resistance and it doesn't go at all. If you could constantly squeeze
the seed throughout its flight--no wait--this is getting too deep for
a Saturday morning...
In a boat, typically the longer the boat--more area of resistance
(waterline--hull in the water) and probably more pressure area (sail
area--more sail against the wind)--the faster the boat. Drag enters
the picture as well--so long, narrow boats are typically more
effecient, like the proa-- or clipper ship at the other end of the
spectrum. Or you can put a big sail on very minimal waterline
resistance and drag and go like blazes; sailboard, Hobie cat, and
others. See the websitehttp://www.speedsailing.com/
But downwind, well you only have the wind and drag. The max speed is
the wind speed and maybe less because of drag. So you sail at angles
to the wind to get a little more speed when you can.
Good boat design is a balance of these forces with other
considerations--like your needs--speed, people capacity or comfort,
or the need to carry cargo. Bolger is a master of balance. He changes
our perceptions of what we think (shoot--what we even know) are the
correct proportions of waterline and sail (or motor) as well as a
hundred other things. The neat thing is that it isn't some
theoritical jargon, it's proven everytime someone builds one of his
boats. Especially the funny looking ones.
John
Lincoln Ross wrote:
Lincoln's pumpkin seed is a good analogy. To expand on it a little,
you have two forces, thumb and finger representing pressure and
resistance. As the seed is squeezed between the two forces it
releases the energy through flight. If you were to lessen one of the
forces less energy would be developed--hence less flight.
Another force comes into play though, drag. If the seed is too
slippery it squeezes out sooner and travels less distance. Too much
resistance and it doesn't go at all. If you could constantly squeeze
the seed throughout its flight--no wait--this is getting too deep for
a Saturday morning...
In a boat, typically the longer the boat--more area of resistance
(waterline--hull in the water) and probably more pressure area (sail
area--more sail against the wind)--the faster the boat. Drag enters
the picture as well--so long, narrow boats are typically more
effecient, like the proa-- or clipper ship at the other end of the
spectrum. Or you can put a big sail on very minimal waterline
resistance and drag and go like blazes; sailboard, Hobie cat, and
others. See the websitehttp://www.speedsailing.com/
But downwind, well you only have the wind and drag. The max speed is
the wind speed and maybe less because of drag. So you sail at angles
to the wind to get a little more speed when you can.
Good boat design is a balance of these forces with other
considerations--like your needs--speed, people capacity or comfort,
or the need to carry cargo. Bolger is a master of balance. He changes
our perceptions of what we think (shoot--what we even know) are the
correct proportions of waterline and sail (or motor) as well as a
hundred other things. The neat thing is that it isn't some
theoritical jargon, it's proven everytime someone builds one of his
boats. Especially the funny looking ones.
John
Lincoln Ross wrote:
> How can a pumpkin seed come zipping out from between your fingerseven
> though you squeezed it slowly? (You can't exceed wind speed whengoing
> straight downwind.)
>
> > Tom wrote:
> >
> >>> Silly question from a non-sailor:
> >>>
> >>> How can a boat sail faster than the wind? One of the boats is
> >>> predicted to reach over 50 knots in 27 knots of wind. Hmmm
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________________
> >
How can a pumpkin seed come zipping out from between your fingers even
though you squeezed it slowly? (You can't exceed wind speed when going
straight downwind.)
though you squeezed it slowly? (You can't exceed wind speed when going
straight downwind.)
> Tom wrote:
>
>>> Silly question from a non-sailor:
>>>
>>> How can a boat sail faster than the wind? One of the boats is
>>> predicted to reach over 50 knots in 27 knots of wind. Hmmm
>>>
>>> Tom
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________
>
Ice boats go considerably faster than that.
Sailing (blowing, running) dead before the wind, you will go slower than the
wind. The sail is just a parachute.
On a "reach" where, by definition the sail is acting as an airfoil and
generating lift, your speed is determined by the thrust (lift) and the drag.
Roger (the only silly questions are those which aren't asked)
derbyrm at starband.net
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
Sailing (blowing, running) dead before the wind, you will go slower than the
wind. The sail is just a parachute.
On a "reach" where, by definition the sail is acting as an airfoil and
generating lift, your speed is determined by the thrust (lift) and the drag.
Roger (the only silly questions are those which aren't asked)
derbyrm at starband.net
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Rund" <trund1024@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 12:52 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Proa
> Silly question from a non-sailor:
>
> How can a boat sail faster than the wind? One of the
> boats is predicted to reach over 50 knots in 27 knots
> of wind. Hmmm
If you think that's odd, ice boats can reach something like six times
the speed of the wind.
This is how I picture it (I could be wrong): In order to go faster
than the wind, you need a hull with minumum resistance as in a
catamaran, proa, or ice boat. An airfoil(sail) creates lift, and must
be at an angle to the wind. As the boat moves, it feels as though the
wind changes direction slightly, coming more from the front of the
boat, this is called apparent wind. This is what you actually adjust
the angle of the sails to. Unfortunately the faster you go, the
greater the drag from the hull through the water. So, a small
catamaran like a Hobie, can exceed wind speed until the resistance of
the hull causes it to reach a maximum limit. To go even faster the
drag must be minimized, so the hull can be made longer, or foils can
be added. Or get an ice boat!
If the wind comes from behind you can only go as fast as the wind.
That's when racing boats put out spinnakers, which look like big
parachutes, and is the slowest point of sail.
Check this site for an explanation with force vectors:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/sailing.html
Check this site for ice boats (this guy has done 59mph in 13 knots of
wind):
http://home.swipnet.se/ansar/s.html
Paul
the speed of the wind.
This is how I picture it (I could be wrong): In order to go faster
than the wind, you need a hull with minumum resistance as in a
catamaran, proa, or ice boat. An airfoil(sail) creates lift, and must
be at an angle to the wind. As the boat moves, it feels as though the
wind changes direction slightly, coming more from the front of the
boat, this is called apparent wind. This is what you actually adjust
the angle of the sails to. Unfortunately the faster you go, the
greater the drag from the hull through the water. So, a small
catamaran like a Hobie, can exceed wind speed until the resistance of
the hull causes it to reach a maximum limit. To go even faster the
drag must be minimized, so the hull can be made longer, or foils can
be added. Or get an ice boat!
If the wind comes from behind you can only go as fast as the wind.
That's when racing boats put out spinnakers, which look like big
parachutes, and is the slowest point of sail.
Check this site for an explanation with force vectors:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/sailing.html
Check this site for ice boats (this guy has done 59mph in 13 knots of
wind):
http://home.swipnet.se/ansar/s.html
Paul
> Silly question from a non-sailor:
>
> How can a boat sail faster than the wind? One of the boats is
> predicted to reach over 50 knots in 27 knots of wind. Hmmm
>
> Tom
>In 1990 Bolger published theAbout 3 months back Bolger wrote up a proa update in MAIB. Within the last
>'minimum proa' article in SBJ
>and in light of the 'need for
>speed' recent thread, this is
>'on topic'.
>
>http://hallman.org/sbj/70/
>
>At the end of the article he
>writes: "the concept is too
>radical and likely to become
>obsolete...".
>
>Is that what has happened
>in the last 14 years? Or,
>put another way, what is
>Bolger's latest word on
>the Proa?
couple years a fella named Norwood in Florida built one more or less to the
20-foot cartoon proa specs, has sailed it.
Hasn't communicated much with the rest of the proa universe. Those who have
tried the "Bolger sail" shown on the cartoon say it is *not* a manageable
sail, though the Florida feller says he's done fine by it. Of course as I
said, no details forthcoming. I should say that people trying several
different reversible type proa sails have pointed out that trying to have a
sheet = a tack line depending on your current direction never works well.
As John Harris' design has shown, a schooner-proa is a very controllable
design for one or two people. Classic Pacific proas had a bunch o guys to
shift the sail, so trying to design a single person proa is a little bit of
an oxymoron, and the general trend among designers has been to make them
mechanically more complicated instead of analyzing what the Micronesians do
and how to adapt it to a light boat.
Bolger also offered an updated (and much more complicated) simple proa
design, which had a few good points but among those of us who have
struggled with the practical aspects of proa sailing, the verdict was "too
complicated to be practical".
I don't think there's anything wrong with the hull form. The outrigger
might be too small; you need more displacement than you think to keep the
tramp or platform above the water with a couple people on it.
The rudder-daggerboards apparently didn't work real well, separate Michalak
style leeboards seem reasonable. The "updated" unit had some sort of
interlocking counterweighted rudder system that strikes everyone I've
talked to as way too complex for a lightweight 20' day sailing fun boat.
Much-o more proa info available on my Cheap Pages and on Mike Schacht's
ProaFile pages.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, bruce@h... wrote:
The dimensions are not far off what people like Gary Dierking are
building after several years of experimenting with beachcat size
proas, and the hull shape is similar to John Harris' Mbuli design,
which is sailing well. The rudders are quite a bit like mine, which
I've been using for two years not, and which work a treat. I'm not
sure about the front rudder steering, but it would be easy enough to
change it over to aft rudder steering if you found that the front
made the boat too twitchy or something.
The "Bolger/AYRS" rig seems to be a total loss, though. It's said to
be very hard to control and fairly dangerous to life and limb when
shunting in any sort of wind. Too bad, it was an elegant idea.
Kevin
> In 1990 Bolger published theThe dimensions of the boat and the rudders still look quite good.
> 'minimum proa' article in SBJ
> and in light of the 'need for
> speed' recent thread, this is
> 'on topic'.
>
>http://hallman.org/sbj/70/
>
> At the end of the article he
> writes: "the concept is too
> radical and likely to become
> obsolete...".
>
> Is that what has happened
> in the last 14 years? Or,
> put another way, what is
> Bolger's latest word on
> the Proa?
The dimensions are not far off what people like Gary Dierking are
building after several years of experimenting with beachcat size
proas, and the hull shape is similar to John Harris' Mbuli design,
which is sailing well. The rudders are quite a bit like mine, which
I've been using for two years not, and which work a treat. I'm not
sure about the front rudder steering, but it would be easy enough to
change it over to aft rudder steering if you found that the front
made the boat too twitchy or something.
The "Bolger/AYRS" rig seems to be a total loss, though. It's said to
be very hard to control and fairly dangerous to life and limb when
shunting in any sort of wind. Too bad, it was an elegant idea.
Kevin
Silly question from a non-sailor:
How can a boat sail faster than the wind? One of the boats is
predicted to reach over 50 knots in 27 knots of wind. Hmmm
Tom
How can a boat sail faster than the wind? One of the boats is
predicted to reach over 50 knots in 27 knots of wind. Hmmm
Tom
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, bruce@h... wrote:
> >http://hallman.org/sbj/70/
> >
> > At the end of the article he
> > writes: "the concept is too
> > radical and likely to become
> > obsolete...".
> >
> > Is that what has happened
> > in the last 14 years? Or,
> > put another way, what is
> > Bolger's latest word on
> > the Proa?
>
> Here is the latest development:
>
>http://www.windjet.co.uk/water/competitors.php
>
> But for outright speed - a windsurfer is the fastest.
>
> Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, bruce@h... wrote:
http://www.windjet.co.uk/water/competitors.php
But for outright speed - a windsurfer is the fastest.
Cheers, Nels
>http://hallman.org/sbj/70/Here is the latest development:
>
> At the end of the article he
> writes: "the concept is too
> radical and likely to become
> obsolete...".
>
> Is that what has happened
> in the last 14 years? Or,
> put another way, what is
> Bolger's latest word on
> the Proa?
http://www.windjet.co.uk/water/competitors.php
But for outright speed - a windsurfer is the fastest.
Cheers, Nels
Don't know about Bolger, but John Harris, of Chesapeake Light Craft, had his
proa at the last Mid-Atlantic Small Craft Festival. Well proven and a good
performer. See their web site for plans...
Paul Esterle
Freelance Boating Writer
Member, Boating Writers International
Published in Small Craft Advisor, SAIL,
Living Aboard, Boatbuilder, Good Old
Boat, Blue Water Sailing, Nor'easter
pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
www.smallcraftadvisor.com
www.captnpauley.com
proa at the last Mid-Atlantic Small Craft Festival. Well proven and a good
performer. See their web site for plans...
Paul Esterle
Freelance Boating Writer
Member, Boating Writers International
Published in Small Craft Advisor, SAIL,
Living Aboard, Boatbuilder, Good Old
Boat, Blue Water Sailing, Nor'easter
pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
www.smallcraftadvisor.com
www.captnpauley.com
In 1990 Bolger published the
'minimum proa' article in SBJ
and in light of the 'need for
speed' recent thread, this is
'on topic'.
http://hallman.org/sbj/70/
At the end of the article he
writes: "the concept is too
radical and likely to become
obsolete...".
Is that what has happened
in the last 14 years? Or,
put another way, what is
Bolger's latest word on
the Proa?
'minimum proa' article in SBJ
and in light of the 'need for
speed' recent thread, this is
'on topic'.
http://hallman.org/sbj/70/
At the end of the article he
writes: "the concept is too
radical and likely to become
obsolete...".
Is that what has happened
in the last 14 years? Or,
put another way, what is
Bolger's latest word on
the Proa?
The Jezzero of Polygore link is for his earliest big
proa, and it is funky to a Bolger degree.
--- "Harry W. James" <welshman@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Any on line stuff on his rig, first I have heard of
it.<BR>
<BR>
HJ<BR>
<BR>
thomas dalzell wrote:<BR>
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
<br>
<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>
</body></html>
______________________________________________________________________
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proa, and it is funky to a Bolger degree.
--- "Harry W. James" <welshman@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Any on line stuff on his rig, first I have heard of
it.<BR>
<BR>
HJ<BR>
<BR>
thomas dalzell wrote:<BR>
> <BR>poor)is<BR>
> Another rig option (Which I don't think Craig<BR>
> mentioned but then my proa rig nomenclature is
> the one Russ Brown has been successfully sailingfor<BR>
> years, most recently accross the Pacific.<BR></tt>
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
<br>
<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>
</body></html>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
On the Schacht site right next to the article on the
Bolger rig, there is stuff on the Brown rig in the
sloop area.
This site has lots on Brown's proas:
http://www.wingo.com/proa/brown/index.html
There is the Wooden Boat cover story, and the Cruising
World cover story.
--- "Harry W. James" <welshman@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Any on line stuff on his rig, first I have heard of
it.<BR>
<BR>
HJ<BR>
<BR>
thomas dalzell wrote:<BR>
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
<br>
<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>
</body></html>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
Bolger rig, there is stuff on the Brown rig in the
sloop area.
This site has lots on Brown's proas:
http://www.wingo.com/proa/brown/index.html
There is the Wooden Boat cover story, and the Cruising
World cover story.
--- "Harry W. James" <welshman@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Any on line stuff on his rig, first I have heard of
it.<BR>
<BR>
HJ<BR>
<BR>
thomas dalzell wrote:<BR>
> <BR>poor)is<BR>
> Another rig option (Which I don't think Craig<BR>
> mentioned but then my proa rig nomenclature is
> the one Russ Brown has been successfully sailingfor<BR>
> years, most recently accross the Pacific.<BR></tt>
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
<br>
<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>
</body></html>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
Best bet for more info: click on:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proa_file
For Russ' Brown's proa rig, search messages
for "Russ"; "Brown"; "Russ Brown"; "Russell Brown"
search on "bolger" for Bolger proa rig info, or see:
http://www.schachtdesign.com/proafile/
for a report- "Good or Evil?- The Bolger Proa Rig"- on one attempt at
getting the rig to work.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proa_file
For Russ' Brown's proa rig, search messages
for "Russ"; "Brown"; "Russ Brown"; "Russell Brown"
search on "bolger" for Bolger proa rig info, or see:
http://www.schachtdesign.com/proafile/
for a report- "Good or Evil?- The Bolger Proa Rig"- on one attempt at
getting the rig to work.
--- In bolger@y..., "Harry W. James" <welshman@p...> wrote:
> Any on line stuff on his rig, first I have heard of it.
>
> HJ
>
> thomas dalzell wrote:
> >
> > Another rig option (Which I don't think Craig
> > mentioned but then my proa rig nomenclature is poor)is
> > the one Russ Brown has been successfully sailing for
> > years, most recently accross the Pacific.
Any on line stuff on his rig, first I have heard of it.
HJ
thomas dalzell wrote:
HJ
thomas dalzell wrote:
>
> Another rig option (Which I don't think Craig
> mentioned but then my proa rig nomenclature is poor)is
> the one Russ Brown has been successfully sailing for
> years, most recently accross the Pacific.
Another rig option (Which I don't think Craig
mentioned but then my proa rig nomenclature is poor)is
the one Russ Brown has been successfully sailing for
years, most recently accross the Pacific. People seem
to avoid Russ' rig feeling perhaps that proas are
unique craft begging unique solutions, or
alternatively feeling that all the bugs were wrung out
by the ancients, and all we need to do is copy their
efforts. But so far, Russ seems to have had the
greatest modern day success at blending the two
traditions (or perhaps Cheers has had that). Russ
kept awfuly quiet about going offshore in his proa, at
first, but he had sailed all over the caribean, and
been way offshore there. Before the Pacific thing
happened, his father told a bunch of us at one of his
epoxy courses that Russ's rig/boat was very special
offshore, very controleable.
A neat boat is Schact's design in Kurt Hughes
catalogue (online), which has been built by several.
Rigitis is a factor here, and the fact that Kurt's
structures are too light to provide appropriate
ballast, but those issues should be solveable.
If I was building something like Bolger's proa, I
would probably consider a hull more like a double
ended tremolino/seaclipper in section. Though the
temptation to just bend it out of ply, and cut out one
of the chines, would get pretty strong. I definetly
don't see the point to the sharpie like-hull bolger
has drawn. I am curious at some point to build an
assymetric stressform hull, I think it is possible,
but I have yet to try.
boat-finishitis, can I get the t-shirt?
--- proaboat <dadadata@...> wrote:
<
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
mentioned but then my proa rig nomenclature is poor)is
the one Russ Brown has been successfully sailing for
years, most recently accross the Pacific. People seem
to avoid Russ' rig feeling perhaps that proas are
unique craft begging unique solutions, or
alternatively feeling that all the bugs were wrung out
by the ancients, and all we need to do is copy their
efforts. But so far, Russ seems to have had the
greatest modern day success at blending the two
traditions (or perhaps Cheers has had that). Russ
kept awfuly quiet about going offshore in his proa, at
first, but he had sailed all over the caribean, and
been way offshore there. Before the Pacific thing
happened, his father told a bunch of us at one of his
epoxy courses that Russ's rig/boat was very special
offshore, very controleable.
A neat boat is Schact's design in Kurt Hughes
catalogue (online), which has been built by several.
Rigitis is a factor here, and the fact that Kurt's
structures are too light to provide appropriate
ballast, but those issues should be solveable.
If I was building something like Bolger's proa, I
would probably consider a hull more like a double
ended tremolino/seaclipper in section. Though the
temptation to just bend it out of ply, and cut out one
of the chines, would get pretty strong. I definetly
don't see the point to the sharpie like-hull bolger
has drawn. I am curious at some point to build an
assymetric stressform hull, I think it is possible,
but I have yet to try.
boat-finishitis, can I get the t-shirt?
--- proaboat <dadadata@...> wrote:
<
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
--- In bolger@y..., "buster38801" <dlb@d...> wrote:
John Harris' more elaborate MBULI proa is very much the same
hull general shape, but with a "Birdwatcher" cabin idea. I can say
that boat sails well though we have not worked all the bugs out
oft he rig, which is the experimental part of MBULI.
A guy in Florida built a Bolger Proa with the Bolger sail and
claims he can sail it (a photo appeared in WoodenBoat
Launchings several issues ago). I have my doubts and the pix
shows a pretty crappy-setting sail.
However *everyone* else who tried that funky Bolger sail,
including Bolger, says it's almost uncontrollable. The sail, not
the boat. The sail is very powerful, but unpredictable is how I'd
sum up the reports.
No reason the proa should not work with either a mini-schooner
or cat-ketch dual rig, or a more traditional crab claw. A
mini-schooner rig might be knocked out from a couple a kids'
windsurfer sails or a couple of Optimist/Sabot/Laser mainsails.
My personal take is keep the rig small and low til you get the
hang of sailing the boat.
Jim Michalak designed a proa prototype a couple years ago, very
simple. Far as I know none were built.
I've built a couple test proas in the 17 foot range but still need to
finish them.... boat-finishitis. Ah.
> Any Info on Bolgers Proa????See my Cheap Pages. Some info there. I've built a model.
John Harris' more elaborate MBULI proa is very much the same
hull general shape, but with a "Birdwatcher" cabin idea. I can say
that boat sails well though we have not worked all the bugs out
oft he rig, which is the experimental part of MBULI.
A guy in Florida built a Bolger Proa with the Bolger sail and
claims he can sail it (a photo appeared in WoodenBoat
Launchings several issues ago). I have my doubts and the pix
shows a pretty crappy-setting sail.
However *everyone* else who tried that funky Bolger sail,
including Bolger, says it's almost uncontrollable. The sail, not
the boat. The sail is very powerful, but unpredictable is how I'd
sum up the reports.
No reason the proa should not work with either a mini-schooner
or cat-ketch dual rig, or a more traditional crab claw. A
mini-schooner rig might be knocked out from a couple a kids'
windsurfer sails or a couple of Optimist/Sabot/Laser mainsails.
My personal take is keep the rig small and low til you get the
hang of sailing the boat.
Jim Michalak designed a proa prototype a couple years ago, very
simple. Far as I know none were built.
I've built a couple test proas in the 17 foot range but still need to
finish them.... boat-finishitis. Ah.
Any Info on Bolgers Proa????