Re: Bilge Runners for Surf?
...Sorry my last post did not work... I'll try again..
Dear Paul, Thanks for the information. I came here to post some
comments on Surf bilge runners and got a gift from you. I have a
Folbot that I plan to construct a sailing rig for and you have given
me some good advice. I have sailed a Klepper with a factory rig many
years ago. I also would like to offer my two cents (cdn) which is
hardly worth a cent these days!
I have a set of Surf plans and wrote to Dynamite Payson asking about
installing pivoting leeboards using hardware from Lee Valley Tools
consisting of a lever and friction device. If you know Dynamite, you
can imagine his reply. "It should work fine if you don't mind the
extra time and work and expense."
I would have two reservations about bilge runners or keels - and that
is the extra weight and wetted area would make for a heavier slower
boat. And would also affect the rowing performance.
Lets face it we are taking a simple elegant design and making it more
complicated.
A suggestion may be to carry a second lee board with less draft, sort
of like one of those little spare tires.
Nels - from the heart of the Canadian prairies:-)
Dear Paul, Thanks for the information. I came here to post some
comments on Surf bilge runners and got a gift from you. I have a
Folbot that I plan to construct a sailing rig for and you have given
me some good advice. I have sailed a Klepper with a factory rig many
years ago. I also would like to offer my two cents (cdn) which is
hardly worth a cent these days!
I have a set of Surf plans and wrote to Dynamite Payson asking about
installing pivoting leeboards using hardware from Lee Valley Tools
consisting of a lever and friction device. If you know Dynamite, you
can imagine his reply. "It should work fine if you don't mind the
extra time and work and expense."
I would have two reservations about bilge runners or keels - and that
is the extra weight and wetted area would make for a heavier slower
boat. And would also affect the rowing performance.
Lets face it we are taking a simple elegant design and making it more
complicated.
A suggestion may be to carry a second lee board with less draft, sort
of like one of those little spare tires.
Nels - from the heart of the Canadian prairies:-)
--- In bolger@y..., "recree8" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@w...> wrote:
> > I'll chime in with my 2 cents worth on pivoting leeboards. I sail
2
> folding
> > kayaks using a mid-60's vintage Klepper sailing rig and a
polytarp
> copycat
> > rig, which include a brace clamped across both gunwales just aft
of
> the
> > mast, with a leeboard pivoting on a bolt off each end of the bar.
> It was not
> > hard to fabricate this - took an ash plank about 1x3" (the wider
> dimension
> > goes in the vertical axis to offset the leverage of the
leeboard),
> drilled
> > holes into the ends, sawed off a couple 1/4" stainless carriage
> bolts and
> > stuck them in the ends with thickened epoxy, cut the leeboards
out
> of 1/4"
> > ply, and bought a couple of plastic knurled knobs to hold the
> boards on.
> > Hardest part for me was coming up with a way to clamp the whole
> mess to a
> > skin-wrapped kayak gunwale, but in a home-built ply boat, just
> drill a hole
> > and bolt it on - maybe have a couple positions depending on load,
> as the bar
> > keeps the boards parallel to the keel-line no matter where you
> mount them
> > fore/aft. We do a fair bit of shallow-water sailing to get away
> from the
> > powerboat channels, and it is very handy in marginal waters to
just
> reach
> > over and pivot the board up a bit to clear the bottom and still
> maintain the
> > maximum possible lateral resistance for the depth - I have no
> experience
> > with them, but it seems the 'hooked' boards cannot be reliably
set
> to
> > variable depths this way. Pivoting the boards up/back moves the
> center of
> > lateral resistance aft but it's manageable. There is one
> little 'problem' -
> > with regular right-hand threaded bolts, the left side pivots up
> freely when
> > it hits bottom, as this acton 'unscrews' the wingnut; but the
right
> side can
> > really tighten up with just a small bump on the leading edge,
even
> with a
> > couple washers in the middle, and requires one to pivot the board
> forward to
> > loosen the torque on the nut. This is not always convenient, and
> always
> > provokes some rather colorful Portuguese on the part of my crew;
> now she
> > usually remembers to put the right board up before a downwind
leg.
> Since the
> > folding kayak is designed to fit into a couple of dufflebags for
> > portability, weighted leeboards are not really a viable option,
but
> in a
> > cartop or trailer boat, you could weight your leeboards and keep
> the bolts a
> > little loose. Or if you manage to find a left-hand threaded knob,
> you could
> > use a reverse-threaded bolt on the right side and still rely on
> bolt tension
> > to keep your leeboards positioned where you want them.
> >
> > Paul Lefebvre
--- In bolger@y..., "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@w...> wrote:
> I'll chime in with my 2 cents worth on pivoting leeboards. I sail 2folding
> kayaks using a mid-60's vintage Klepper sailing rig and a polytarpcopycat
> rig, which include a brace clamped across both gunwales just aft ofthe
> mast, with a leeboard pivoting on a bolt off each end of the bar.It was not
> hard to fabricate this - took an ash plank about 1x3" (the widerdimension
> goes in the vertical axis to offset the leverage of the leeboard),drilled
> holes into the ends, sawed off a couple 1/4" stainless carriagebolts and
> stuck them in the ends with thickened epoxy, cut the leeboards outof 1/4"
> ply, and bought a couple of plastic knurled knobs to hold theboards on.
> Hardest part for me was coming up with a way to clamp the wholemess to a
> skin-wrapped kayak gunwale, but in a home-built ply boat, justdrill a hole
> and bolt it on - maybe have a couple positions depending on load,as the bar
> keeps the boards parallel to the keel-line no matter where youmount them
> fore/aft. We do a fair bit of shallow-water sailing to get awayfrom the
> powerboat channels, and it is very handy in marginal waters to justreach
> over and pivot the board up a bit to clear the bottom and stillmaintain the
> maximum possible lateral resistance for the depth - I have noexperience
> with them, but it seems the 'hooked' boards cannot be reliably setto
> variable depths this way. Pivoting the boards up/back moves thecenter of
> lateral resistance aft but it's manageable. There is onelittle 'problem' -
> with regular right-hand threaded bolts, the left side pivots upfreely when
> it hits bottom, as this acton 'unscrews' the wingnut; but the rightside can
> really tighten up with just a small bump on the leading edge, evenwith a
> couple washers in the middle, and requires one to pivot the boardforward to
> loosen the torque on the nut. This is not always convenient, andalways
> provokes some rather colorful Portuguese on the part of my crew;now she
> usually remembers to put the right board up before a downwind leg.Since the
> folding kayak is designed to fit into a couple of dufflebags forin a
> portability, weighted leeboards are not really a viable option, but
> cartop or trailer boat, you could weight your leeboards and keepthe bolts a
> little loose. Or if you manage to find a left-hand threaded knob,you could
> use a reverse-threaded bolt on the right side and still rely onbolt tension
> to keep your leeboards positioned where you want them.
>
> Paul Lefebvre
I'll chime in with my 2 cents worth on pivoting leeboards. I sail 2 folding
kayaks using a mid-60's vintage Klepper sailing rig and a polytarp copycat
rig, which include a brace clamped across both gunwales just aft of the
mast, with a leeboard pivoting on a bolt off each end of the bar. It was not
hard to fabricate this - took an ash plank about 1x3" (the wider dimension
goes in the vertical axis to offset the leverage of the leeboard), drilled
holes into the ends, sawed off a couple 1/4" stainless carriage bolts and
stuck them in the ends with thickened epoxy, cut the leeboards out of 1/4"
ply, and bought a couple of plastic knurled knobs to hold the boards on.
Hardest part for me was coming up with a way to clamp the whole mess to a
skin-wrapped kayak gunwale, but in a home-built ply boat, just drill a hole
and bolt it on - maybe have a couple positions depending on load, as the bar
keeps the boards parallel to the keel-line no matter where you mount them
fore/aft. We do a fair bit of shallow-water sailing to get away from the
powerboat channels, and it is very handy in marginal waters to just reach
over and pivot the board up a bit to clear the bottom and still maintain the
maximum possible lateral resistance for the depth - I have no experience
with them, but it seems the 'hooked' boards cannot be reliably set to
variable depths this way. Pivoting the boards up/back moves the center of
lateral resistance aft but it's manageable. There is one little 'problem' -
with regular right-hand threaded bolts, the left side pivots up freely when
it hits bottom, as this acton 'unscrews' the wingnut; but the right side can
really tighten up with just a small bump on the leading edge, even with a
couple washers in the middle, and requires one to pivot the board forward to
loosen the torque on the nut. This is not always convenient, and always
provokes some rather colorful Portuguese on the part of my crew; now she
usually remembers to put the right board up before a downwind leg. Since the
folding kayak is designed to fit into a couple of dufflebags for
portability, weighted leeboards are not really a viable option, but in a
cartop or trailer boat, you could weight your leeboards and keep the bolts a
little loose. Or if you manage to find a left-hand threaded knob, you could
use a reverse-threaded bolt on the right side and still rely on bolt tension
to keep your leeboards positioned where you want them.
Paul Lefebvre
kayaks using a mid-60's vintage Klepper sailing rig and a polytarp copycat
rig, which include a brace clamped across both gunwales just aft of the
mast, with a leeboard pivoting on a bolt off each end of the bar. It was not
hard to fabricate this - took an ash plank about 1x3" (the wider dimension
goes in the vertical axis to offset the leverage of the leeboard), drilled
holes into the ends, sawed off a couple 1/4" stainless carriage bolts and
stuck them in the ends with thickened epoxy, cut the leeboards out of 1/4"
ply, and bought a couple of plastic knurled knobs to hold the boards on.
Hardest part for me was coming up with a way to clamp the whole mess to a
skin-wrapped kayak gunwale, but in a home-built ply boat, just drill a hole
and bolt it on - maybe have a couple positions depending on load, as the bar
keeps the boards parallel to the keel-line no matter where you mount them
fore/aft. We do a fair bit of shallow-water sailing to get away from the
powerboat channels, and it is very handy in marginal waters to just reach
over and pivot the board up a bit to clear the bottom and still maintain the
maximum possible lateral resistance for the depth - I have no experience
with them, but it seems the 'hooked' boards cannot be reliably set to
variable depths this way. Pivoting the boards up/back moves the center of
lateral resistance aft but it's manageable. There is one little 'problem' -
with regular right-hand threaded bolts, the left side pivots up freely when
it hits bottom, as this acton 'unscrews' the wingnut; but the right side can
really tighten up with just a small bump on the leading edge, even with a
couple washers in the middle, and requires one to pivot the board forward to
loosen the torque on the nut. This is not always convenient, and always
provokes some rather colorful Portuguese on the part of my crew; now she
usually remembers to put the right board up before a downwind leg. Since the
folding kayak is designed to fit into a couple of dufflebags for
portability, weighted leeboards are not really a viable option, but in a
cartop or trailer boat, you could weight your leeboards and keep the bolts a
little loose. Or if you manage to find a left-hand threaded knob, you could
use a reverse-threaded bolt on the right side and still rely on bolt tension
to keep your leeboards positioned where you want them.
Paul Lefebvre
John:
Jim Michalak is pretty good at pivoting leeboards. I think all his work that way. You can read what he has to say about them at:
http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/michalak/alphabetical.htm
Scroll down the page and find leeboards.
Chuck
Jim Michalak is pretty good at pivoting leeboards. I think all his work that way. You can read what he has to say about them at:
http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/michalak/alphabetical.htm
Scroll down the page and find leeboards.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: vicskiff
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 1:43 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bilge Runners for Surf?
Sounds good, Rique. I believe I saw something like this some while
ago on a British Web site. If I remember correctly, it had both a
handle and a bungee cord attached to it somehow to return the board
to operating position after a bump. Thanks for the reminder.
John
--- In bolger@y..., "riquenz" <Rique@p...> wrote:
> Hi John
> I had the same problem with my surf, the first time we took it out
we
> broke one of the fingers that hold the lee board. So I put a board
> the same thickness of the chines, another piece of ply on the
inside,
> and drilled a hole through that and the leeboard and put in a ss
3/8
> bolt with a piece of ice cream container in between. It works a
> charm, the only thing it needs now is a handle to pull it back
after
> it bottoms every 50 yards! The whole conversion only took an
> afternoon.
> Good luck
> Rique NZ
>
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., John Ewing <john.ewing@s...> wrote:
> > Hey gang, I'd like some input on bilge keels/runners and their
> suitability for use on my Surf. Portage Inlet here in Victoria is
> pretty shallow; in fact, in our area it dries at low tide. As with
> Teal, Elegant Punt, etc., Bolger shows a leeboard for Surf that is
> held in place by a 'hook' of wood straddling the centre web frame.
> This seems a little fragile for frequent bottom-butting and instead
> I've been considering a pivoting leeboard of some sort.
> >
> > But in one of his lectures on lateral resistance over at the
> Smallboats group, Don Elliott talks about chine runners and bilge
> runners. The former seem a little too vulnerable to consider retro-
> fitting to my Surf. But bilge runners? Wouldn't they be very
similar
> to the bilge keels that one sees so many sailboats sitting upright
on
> in drying harbours in the U.K.?
> >
> > Below the waterline, the Surf's design leeboard has about two
> square feet of surface area each side (less when windward, of
course,
> and more when truly to lee). Two bilge runners/keels each 24" long
by
> 6" deep would together present an area of lateral plane equal to
the
> leeboard -- as would two runners each 36" long by 4" deep. But
would
> the lateral resistance and performance actually be the same as with
> the leeboard? I realize the boat would be less shallow-draft but
> maybe the gained simplicity over a leeboard (especially a pivoting
> leeboard) would be worth it...
> >
> > Input requested, please.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Properly designed and installed, a single pivoting leeboard will work
fine. Seehttp://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/1sep01.htm#LEEBOARD%20ISSUES
for some more explanation. Jim does a better job of explaining these
things than I do.
At 1/18/02 09:11 AM, you wrote:
UgotaWanit: New Beginnings
http://www.ugotawanit.com
Columbia, Maryland USA
fine. Seehttp://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/1sep01.htm#LEEBOARD%20ISSUES
for some more explanation. Jim does a better job of explaining these
things than I do.
At 1/18/02 09:11 AM, you wrote:
>Hello John,Geren W. Mortensen, Jr.
> I'm no designer but I suppose the SURF is small and cheap enough
>to experiment with.
> The pivoting leeboard idea is cool,but would require that you
>build one for each side for max. performance. Perhaps the added
>weight and time to build the modifications is acceptable to you....
> I had a SURF once and only hit hard once,enough to snap one of
>the tongues off. Afterward,I was more careful and sailed in deeper
>water......
> Happy sailing!
>
> Sincerely,
UgotaWanit: New Beginnings
http://www.ugotawanit.com
Columbia, Maryland USA
Hello John,
I'm no designer but I suppose the SURF is small and cheap enough
to experiment with.
The pivoting leeboard idea is cool,but would require that you
build one for each side for max. performance. Perhaps the added
weight and time to build the modifications is acceptable to you....
I had a SURF once and only hit hard once,enough to snap one of
the tongues off. Afterward,I was more careful and sailed in deeper
water......
Happy sailing!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
I'm no designer but I suppose the SURF is small and cheap enough
to experiment with.
The pivoting leeboard idea is cool,but would require that you
build one for each side for max. performance. Perhaps the added
weight and time to build the modifications is acceptable to you....
I had a SURF once and only hit hard once,enough to snap one of
the tongues off. Afterward,I was more careful and sailed in deeper
water......
Happy sailing!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
--- In bolger@y..., John Ewing <john.ewing@s...> wrote:
> Hey gang, I'd like some input on bilge keels/runners and their
suitability for use on my Surf. Portage Inlet here in Victoria is
pretty shallow; in fact, in our area it dries at low tide. As with
Teal, Elegant Punt, etc., Bolger shows a leeboard for Surf that is
held in place by a 'hook' of wood straddling the centre web frame.
This seems a little fragile for frequent bottom-butting and instead
I've been considering a pivoting leeboard of some sort.
>
> But in one of his lectures on lateral resistance over at the
Smallboats group, Don Elliott talks about chine runners and bilge
runners. The former seem a little too vulnerable to consider retro-
fitting to my Surf. But bilge runners? Wouldn't they be very similar
to the bilge keels that one sees so many sailboats sitting upright on
in drying harbours in the U.K.?
>
> Below the waterline, the Surf's design leeboard has about two
square feet of surface area each side (less when windward, of course,
and more when truly to lee). Two bilge runners/keels each 24" long by
6" deep would together present an area of lateral plane equal to the
leeboard -- as would two runners each 36" long by 4" deep. But would
the lateral resistance and performance actually be the same as with
the leeboard? I realize the boat would be less shallow-draft but
maybe the gained simplicity over a leeboard (especially a pivoting
leeboard) would be worth it...
>
> Input requested, please.
>
> John
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Opinion on "bilge runners"? Why yes, I do.
I note that the community of designers who use chine runners and
bilge runners numbers about one. And that the vast majority of
designers who are interested in shallow draft do not use them.
I note that the area (lateral plane) of a well-designed foil is
usually greater than that allotted to these "runners" which have a
much less efficient shape.
I can remember articles about folks who did such things as add
endplates to Wharram trimarans without noticing a benefit.
So, I don't believe in them at all.
You are right, however, that the Bolger clip-on leeboard is
vulnerable to damage. I broke one myself. If I were to build one now
I would modify the design so that the connection between the outboard
side (the leeboard proper) to the inboard side (the clip) was one
fairly large diameter bolt. Tighten it down so the geometry is held
by friction. If you hit something, there is a good chance that the
board will swivel on the bolt without breaking anything.
Peter
I note that the community of designers who use chine runners and
bilge runners numbers about one. And that the vast majority of
designers who are interested in shallow draft do not use them.
I note that the area (lateral plane) of a well-designed foil is
usually greater than that allotted to these "runners" which have a
much less efficient shape.
I can remember articles about folks who did such things as add
endplates to Wharram trimarans without noticing a benefit.
So, I don't believe in them at all.
You are right, however, that the Bolger clip-on leeboard is
vulnerable to damage. I broke one myself. If I were to build one now
I would modify the design so that the connection between the outboard
side (the leeboard proper) to the inboard side (the clip) was one
fairly large diameter bolt. Tighten it down so the geometry is held
by friction. If you hit something, there is a good chance that the
board will swivel on the bolt without breaking anything.
Peter
--- In bolger@y..., John Ewing <john.ewing@s...> wrote:
pretty shallow; in fact, in our area it dries at low tide. As with
Teal, Elegant Punt, etc.,
Have a look in files, june bug, botanybay.jpg.
we screwed straight thruogh the hull and onto the 1/2x3/4 runners .
they are 30" long, 4" deep and 3/4 " thick in a local hardwood,
Jarrah. fairly bullet proof.
when we ground we sit on the bow or wtern to float off. with a
shallow rudder we sail into 6" ofwater.
sailing is fine but she sails better witha load and on a heel . i
think your surf would be much the same. I'm glad we put these keels
on , as there is one less thing to do when beaching.
Cheers Paul
> Hey gang, I'd like some input on bilge keels/runners and theirsuitability for use on my Surf. Portage Inlet here in Victoria is
pretty shallow; in fact, in our area it dries at low tide. As with
Teal, Elegant Punt, etc.,
Have a look in files, june bug, botanybay.jpg.
we screwed straight thruogh the hull and onto the 1/2x3/4 runners .
they are 30" long, 4" deep and 3/4 " thick in a local hardwood,
Jarrah. fairly bullet proof.
when we ground we sit on the bow or wtern to float off. with a
shallow rudder we sail into 6" ofwater.
sailing is fine but she sails better witha load and on a heel . i
think your surf would be much the same. I'm glad we put these keels
on , as there is one less thing to do when beaching.
Cheers Paul
Hi John
The received wisdom is that the lower aspect ratio bilge runners would be
less effective, and require an increase in area.
After breaking one of the 'hooks' on my Nymph's leeboard, I just sawed them
off. The board now slides up and down through a slot in the gunwale (which I
reinforced appropriately) and a simple wooden bracket down near the
waterline. Under side load the board will stay put thanks to friction, and
it can float up in the slot, or be hauled up at will. A lee-daggerboard, if
you will. Or the lazy man's answer to pivoting boards...
Cheers
Derek
The received wisdom is that the lower aspect ratio bilge runners would be
less effective, and require an increase in area.
After breaking one of the 'hooks' on my Nymph's leeboard, I just sawed them
off. The board now slides up and down through a slot in the gunwale (which I
reinforced appropriately) and a simple wooden bracket down near the
waterline. Under side load the board will stay put thanks to friction, and
it can float up in the slot, or be hauled up at will. A lee-daggerboard, if
you will. Or the lazy man's answer to pivoting boards...
Cheers
Derek
Sounds good, Rique. I believe I saw something like this some while
ago on a British Web site. If I remember correctly, it had both a
handle and a bungee cord attached to it somehow to return the board
to operating position after a bump. Thanks for the reminder.
John
ago on a British Web site. If I remember correctly, it had both a
handle and a bungee cord attached to it somehow to return the board
to operating position after a bump. Thanks for the reminder.
John
--- In bolger@y..., "riquenz" <Rique@p...> wrote:
> Hi John
> I had the same problem with my surf, the first time we took it out
we
> broke one of the fingers that hold the lee board. So I put a board
> the same thickness of the chines, another piece of ply on the
inside,
> and drilled a hole through that and the leeboard and put in a ss
3/8
> bolt with a piece of ice cream container in between. It works a
> charm, the only thing it needs now is a handle to pull it back
after
> it bottoms every 50 yards! The whole conversion only took an
> afternoon.
> Good luck
> Rique NZ
>
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., John Ewing <john.ewing@s...> wrote:
> > Hey gang, I'd like some input on bilge keels/runners and their
> suitability for use on my Surf. Portage Inlet here in Victoria is
> pretty shallow; in fact, in our area it dries at low tide. As with
> Teal, Elegant Punt, etc., Bolger shows a leeboard for Surf that is
> held in place by a 'hook' of wood straddling the centre web frame.
> This seems a little fragile for frequent bottom-butting and instead
> I've been considering a pivoting leeboard of some sort.
> >
> > But in one of his lectures on lateral resistance over at the
> Smallboats group, Don Elliott talks about chine runners and bilge
> runners. The former seem a little too vulnerable to consider retro-
> fitting to my Surf. But bilge runners? Wouldn't they be very
similar
> to the bilge keels that one sees so many sailboats sitting upright
on
> in drying harbours in the U.K.?
> >
> > Below the waterline, the Surf's design leeboard has about two
> square feet of surface area each side (less when windward, of
course,
> and more when truly to lee). Two bilge runners/keels each 24" long
by
> 6" deep would together present an area of lateral plane equal to
the
> leeboard -- as would two runners each 36" long by 4" deep. But
would
> the lateral resistance and performance actually be the same as with
> the leeboard? I realize the boat would be less shallow-draft but
> maybe the gained simplicity over a leeboard (especially a pivoting
> leeboard) would be worth it...
> >
> > Input requested, please.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi John
I had the same problem with my surf, the first time we took it out we
broke one of the fingers that hold the lee board. So I put a board
the same thickness of the chines, another piece of ply on the inside,
and drilled a hole through that and the leeboard and put in a ss 3/8
bolt with a piece of ice cream container in between. It works a
charm, the only thing it needs now is a handle to pull it back after
it bottoms every 50 yards! The whole conversion only took an
afternoon.
Good luck
Rique NZ
I had the same problem with my surf, the first time we took it out we
broke one of the fingers that hold the lee board. So I put a board
the same thickness of the chines, another piece of ply on the inside,
and drilled a hole through that and the leeboard and put in a ss 3/8
bolt with a piece of ice cream container in between. It works a
charm, the only thing it needs now is a handle to pull it back after
it bottoms every 50 yards! The whole conversion only took an
afternoon.
Good luck
Rique NZ
--- In bolger@y..., John Ewing <john.ewing@s...> wrote:
> Hey gang, I'd like some input on bilge keels/runners and their
suitability for use on my Surf. Portage Inlet here in Victoria is
pretty shallow; in fact, in our area it dries at low tide. As with
Teal, Elegant Punt, etc., Bolger shows a leeboard for Surf that is
held in place by a 'hook' of wood straddling the centre web frame.
This seems a little fragile for frequent bottom-butting and instead
I've been considering a pivoting leeboard of some sort.
>
> But in one of his lectures on lateral resistance over at the
Smallboats group, Don Elliott talks about chine runners and bilge
runners. The former seem a little too vulnerable to consider retro-
fitting to my Surf. But bilge runners? Wouldn't they be very similar
to the bilge keels that one sees so many sailboats sitting upright on
in drying harbours in the U.K.?
>
> Below the waterline, the Surf's design leeboard has about two
square feet of surface area each side (less when windward, of course,
and more when truly to lee). Two bilge runners/keels each 24" long by
6" deep would together present an area of lateral plane equal to the
leeboard -- as would two runners each 36" long by 4" deep. But would
the lateral resistance and performance actually be the same as with
the leeboard? I realize the boat would be less shallow-draft but
maybe the gained simplicity over a leeboard (especially a pivoting
leeboard) would be worth it...
>
> Input requested, please.
>
> John
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi John,
The Surf's leeboard looks just like my Nymph's. It's really pretty tough
but is a hassle coming to shore -- easy enough to pull off but then you
don't have any lateral resistance. I speak from experience when I say it
can ruin the grace of your landing :) . A single leeboard pivoting on a
bolt through a block should be fairly straight forward to build. I don't
know the relative performance of the runners but they seem like quite a bit
more trouble.
Nice boat, best of luck,
Larry
The Surf's leeboard looks just like my Nymph's. It's really pretty tough
but is a hassle coming to shore -- easy enough to pull off but then you
don't have any lateral resistance. I speak from experience when I say it
can ruin the grace of your landing :) . A single leeboard pivoting on a
bolt through a block should be fairly straight forward to build. I don't
know the relative performance of the runners but they seem like quite a bit
more trouble.
Nice boat, best of luck,
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Ewing" <john.ewing@...>
To: "Bolger Yahoogroup" <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 8:22 PM
Subject: [bolger] Bilge Runners for Surf?
> Hey gang, I'd like some input on bilge keels/runners and their suitability
for use on my Surf. Portage Inlet here in Victoria is pretty shallow; in
fact, in our area it dries at low tide. As with Teal, Elegant Punt, etc.,
Bolger shows a leeboard for Surf that is held in place by a 'hook' of wood
straddling the centre web frame. This seems a little fragile for frequent
bottom-butting and instead I've been considering a pivoting leeboard of some
sort.
>
Hey gang, I'd like some input on bilge keels/runners and their suitability for use on my Surf. Portage Inlet here in Victoria is pretty shallow; in fact, in our area it dries at low tide. As with Teal, Elegant Punt, etc., Bolger shows a leeboard for Surf that is held in place by a 'hook' of wood straddling the centre web frame. This seems a little fragile for frequent bottom-butting and instead I've been considering a pivoting leeboard of some sort.
But in one of his lectures on lateral resistance over at the Smallboats group, Don Elliott talks about chine runners and bilge runners. The former seem a little too vulnerable to consider retro-fitting to my Surf. But bilge runners? Wouldn't they be very similar to the bilge keels that one sees so many sailboats sitting upright on in drying harbours in the U.K.?
Below the waterline, the Surf's design leeboard has about two square feet of surface area each side (less when windward, of course, and more when truly to lee). Two bilge runners/keels each 24" long by 6" deep would together present an area of lateral plane equal to the leeboard -- as would two runners each 36" long by 4" deep. But would the lateral resistance and performance actually be the same as with the leeboard? I realize the boat would be less shallow-draft but maybe the gained simplicity over a leeboard (especially a pivoting leeboard) would be worth it...
Input requested, please.
John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But in one of his lectures on lateral resistance over at the Smallboats group, Don Elliott talks about chine runners and bilge runners. The former seem a little too vulnerable to consider retro-fitting to my Surf. But bilge runners? Wouldn't they be very similar to the bilge keels that one sees so many sailboats sitting upright on in drying harbours in the U.K.?
Below the waterline, the Surf's design leeboard has about two square feet of surface area each side (less when windward, of course, and more when truly to lee). Two bilge runners/keels each 24" long by 6" deep would together present an area of lateral plane equal to the leeboard -- as would two runners each 36" long by 4" deep. But would the lateral resistance and performance actually be the same as with the leeboard? I realize the boat would be less shallow-draft but maybe the gained simplicity over a leeboard (especially a pivoting leeboard) would be worth it...
Input requested, please.
John
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]