Re: Martha Jane knockdown
Mike, I'm interested in hearing more about your knockdown. As you
know, I'm builing the Chebacco light cruiser, which will be using the
pilothouse as last ditch reserver floatation.
BTW, what did you use for your windows? Acrylic? Lexan? How thick?
Did you get any water in the cockpit durring your knockdown?
Were you in the boat? Did your hanging on cause any problems with
righting?
Were the sails up? What knocked you over, a puff?
Details, please!
know, I'm builing the Chebacco light cruiser, which will be using the
pilothouse as last ditch reserver floatation.
BTW, what did you use for your windows? Acrylic? Lexan? How thick?
Did you get any water in the cockpit durring your knockdown?
Were you in the boat? Did your hanging on cause any problems with
righting?
Were the sails up? What knocked you over, a puff?
Details, please!
--- In bolger@y..., "mikestockstill" <mkstocks@b...> wrote:
> Hi -
>
> > Last I heard Bolger had released a re-vamped MJ and was suggesting
> > adding more ballast or lead sole to MJ's bottom?
>
> I have not felt the need to have the extra ballast on the bottom.
I
> fill my ballast tanks, secure any loose gear down low in the boat
> (which everyone should do anyway.
>
> Only once did I have a Martha Jane on the side - and that was due
to
> having the ballast only partially filled and no gear. The high
house
> and sponsons worked as advertised.
>
> Mike
>http://mkstocks.tripod.com/boats/martha_jane/
On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, thomas dalzell wrote:
no one will send you anthrax.
Really.
> He certainly can, though I haven't been as confident opening my USUnless you're a slightly left-of-center politician, or work for a tabloid,
> origin mail recently.
no one will send you anthrax.
Really.
This was said very tongue in cheek and definitely with no malice intended.
With hindsight it seems that some people did not think so and to them I say
sorry. As for this whole thread I think it ridiculous, these people seem to
think that Bolger owes them something. I don't give a darn weather he has a
website or not and I care even less for a catalogue as it is a pleasure to
ask for exactly what I want and get the right reply, the one that suits my
requirements at the time and if they change I ask again and get the right
reply again.
Regard,
Charles
With hindsight it seems that some people did not think so and to them I say
sorry. As for this whole thread I think it ridiculous, these people seem to
think that Bolger owes them something. I don't give a darn weather he has a
website or not and I care even less for a catalogue as it is a pleasure to
ask for exactly what I want and get the right reply, the one that suits my
requirements at the time and if they change I ask again and get the right
reply again.
Regard,
Charles
----- Original Message -----
From: "dbaldnz" <dbaldnz@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 8:13 PM
Subject: [bolger] Faxes to Bolger (was Unauthorized plans)
> Charles, without malice!-
> I can fax a letter to Bolger where he sees it instantly, quicker than
> you can fire up your computer, which he may not have switched on. And
> graphics are a doddle.
> Fax and computer were both invented in 20th century as I understand
> it.
> There is something almost miraculous to an old 20th century person
> like me, to see the masters letterhead appear from my machine a few
> minutes after I have contacted him.
>
> cheers, DonB
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "Charles Wilson" <wilson.c@b...> wrote:
> > Fax belongs way back in the 20th century and you may not have
> noticed Don
> > but a while back we quietly slipped into the 21st century.
> >
> > Charles
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Luke S" <biggie@d...>
> > To: <bolger@y...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:11 AM
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Unauthorized plans
> >
> >
> > > what Bruce said was quite valid and not disparaging towards
> PCB&F. I
> > would
> > > suggest that YOU relax a little.
> > >
> > > Luke S
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "dbaldnz" <dbaldnz@y...>
> > > To: <bolger@y...>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 5:13 PM
> > > Subject: [bolger] Re: Unauthorized plans
> > >
> > >
> > > > Perhaps Bruce, if YOU got into the 21st century and used a fax,
> you
> > > > would find you may get replies about plan costs from Bolger
> back on
> > > > your desk within 30 minutes as I have! And a plan in my
> letterbox on
> > > > the other side of the world in 10 days or so. Relax a little.
> > > > This internet thing is a double-edged sword. I bet you if he
> became
> > > > internet available, his time wasted answering dreamers queries
> would
> > > > multiply like mad.
> > > > How do you know he wants to be a plan factory and sell millions
> of
> > > > plans? I suspect he is more than happy devoting his time to
> > > > exploring new designs and concepts.
> > > > DonB
> > > >
> > > > --- In bolger@y..., "bgbeck55" <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
> > > > > What seems to escape PCB and SA is that if they had a
> website
> > > > or
> > > > > print catalog available, they'd be more likely to get the
> business
> > > > > that now goes to CSB. As long as the insist on clinging to
> this
> > > > > clumsy fax or written letter via snail-mail business, CSB will
> > > > remain
> > > > > a thorn in their side. PCB has over 600 designs, but only a
> > > > fraction
> > > > > are known publicly. In a letter to MAIB, PCB said that a
> catalog
> > > > was
> > > > > in progress. Six and a half years later still no catalog.
> > > > > Let's be realistic; if you can order a set of "Micro"
> plans
> > > > with
> > > > > a few mouse clicks or a phone call, why would you want spend a
> > > > couple
> > > > > of weeks screwing around waiting on USPS? ( Write for a
> price, wait
> > > > a
> > > > > week [or more if not in the U.S.] for an answer; then send
> payment
> > > > > for the plans and wait some more)
> > > > > PCB&F needs to join the 21st century,
> > > > > Bruce
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bolger rules!!!
> > > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> > > > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> > > > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all
> you like
> > > > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA,
> > > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bolger rules!!!
> > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> > > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
> like
> > > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA,
> > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
He certainly can, though I haven't been as confident
opening my US origin mail recently.
sure that using only the postal system and fax with no
paper catalog <BR>
puts off a lot of folks, but perhaps that is his
desire.<BR>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
opening my US origin mail recently.
>>That said, Mr Bolger can choose to do business as hesees fit. I am <BR>
sure that using only the postal system and fax with no
paper catalog <BR>
puts off a lot of folks, but perhaps that is his
desire.<BR>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
Yep, keep stoking the fire. Why should we allow such a pointless topic to
die, eh ?
die, eh ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart Crawford" <scrawford@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Unauthorized plans
> on 24/1/02 4:18 AM, Charles Wilson atwilson.c@...wrote:
>
> > Fax belongs way back in the 20th century and you may not have noticed
Don
> > but a while back we quietly slipped into the 21st century.
> >
> > Charles
>
> More childish prattle about keeping up with the jones's.
>
> Stuart Crawford
> New Zealand
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
--- In bolger@y..., Stuart Crawford <scrawford@p...> wrote:
device here in the US (could be different elsewhere). The only
people that I know of that have a fax in their home are using it to
support a business, not for personal use. Lots of folks have fax
modems but do not use them that way (only as a modem). Most
businesses have them though.
That said, Mr Bolger can choose to do business as he sees fit. I am
sure that using only the postal system and fax with no paper catalog
puts off a lot of folks, but perhaps that is his desire.
> on 24/1/02 4:18 AM, Charles Wilson at wilson.c@b... wrote:noticed Don
>
> > Fax belongs way back in the 20th century and you may not have
> > but a while back we quietly slipped into the 21st century.Perhaps, but the truth is that fax never caught on as an in home
> More childish prattle about keeping up with the jones's.
device here in the US (could be different elsewhere). The only
people that I know of that have a fax in their home are using it to
support a business, not for personal use. Lots of folks have fax
modems but do not use them that way (only as a modem). Most
businesses have them though.
That said, Mr Bolger can choose to do business as he sees fit. I am
sure that using only the postal system and fax with no paper catalog
puts off a lot of folks, but perhaps that is his desire.
on 24/1/02 4:18 AM, Charles Wilson atwilson.c@...wrote:
Stuart Crawford
New Zealand
> Fax belongs way back in the 20th century and you may not have noticed DonMore childish prattle about keeping up with the jones's.
> but a while back we quietly slipped into the 21st century.
>
> Charles
Stuart Crawford
New Zealand
Charles, without malice!-
I can fax a letter to Bolger where he sees it instantly, quicker than
you can fire up your computer, which he may not have switched on. And
graphics are a doddle.
Fax and computer were both invented in 20th century as I understand
it.
There is something almost miraculous to an old 20th century person
like me, to see the masters letterhead appear from my machine a few
minutes after I have contacted him.
cheers, DonB
I can fax a letter to Bolger where he sees it instantly, quicker than
you can fire up your computer, which he may not have switched on. And
graphics are a doddle.
Fax and computer were both invented in 20th century as I understand
it.
There is something almost miraculous to an old 20th century person
like me, to see the masters letterhead appear from my machine a few
minutes after I have contacted him.
cheers, DonB
--- In bolger@y..., "Charles Wilson" <wilson.c@b...> wrote:
> Fax belongs way back in the 20th century and you may not have
noticed Don
> but a while back we quietly slipped into the 21st century.
>
> Charles
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Luke S" <biggie@d...>
> To: <bolger@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Unauthorized plans
>
>
> > what Bruce said was quite valid and not disparaging towards
PCB&F. I
> would
> > suggest that YOU relax a little.
> >
> > Luke S
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "dbaldnz" <dbaldnz@y...>
> > To: <bolger@y...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 5:13 PM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: Unauthorized plans
> >
> >
> > > Perhaps Bruce, if YOU got into the 21st century and used a fax,
you
> > > would find you may get replies about plan costs from Bolger
back on
> > > your desk within 30 minutes as I have! And a plan in my
letterbox on
> > > the other side of the world in 10 days or so. Relax a little.
> > > This internet thing is a double-edged sword. I bet you if he
became
> > > internet available, his time wasted answering dreamers queries
would
> > > multiply like mad.
> > > How do you know he wants to be a plan factory and sell millions
of
> > > plans? I suspect he is more than happy devoting his time to
> > > exploring new designs and concepts.
> > > DonB
> > >
> > > --- In bolger@y..., "bgbeck55" <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
> > > > What seems to escape PCB and SA is that if they had a
website
> > > or
> > > > print catalog available, they'd be more likely to get the
business
> > > > that now goes to CSB. As long as the insist on clinging to
this
> > > > clumsy fax or written letter via snail-mail business, CSB will
> > > remain
> > > > a thorn in their side. PCB has over 600 designs, but only a
> > > fraction
> > > > are known publicly. In a letter to MAIB, PCB said that a
catalog
> > > was
> > > > in progress. Six and a half years later still no catalog.
> > > > Let's be realistic; if you can order a set of "Micro"
plans
> > > with
> > > > a few mouse clicks or a phone call, why would you want spend a
> > > couple
> > > > of weeks screwing around waiting on USPS? ( Write for a
price, wait
> > > a
> > > > week [or more if not in the U.S.] for an answer; then send
payment
> > > > for the plans and wait some more)
> > > > PCB&F needs to join the 21st century,
> > > > Bruce
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bolger rules!!!
> > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
horses
> > > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> > > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all
you like
> > > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA,
> > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
like
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
So, if I follow your reasoning here, sharpies and faxes represent
parallel and related technologies? (just a JOKE, Mr. Moderator....)
David Romasco
-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Smith [mailto:pbs@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 1:15 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Unauthorized plans
For what it's worth, the fax was invented about the time of the US Civil
War.
"In 1865, Italian physics professor Giovanni Caselli establishes the
first
commercial fax system, which links Paris and several other French
cities,
using a device called a pentélégraphe which was a modification of Bains
original idea. He transmits nearly 5,000 faxes in the first year."
Interestingly enough, this was probably about the time of the highest
development of working sharpies in the US. Many of Bolger's boats are
based
on the sharpie form.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705
065791:HM/A=889707/R=0/*http://shop.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/clink?gloss2
+shopping:dmad/M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791
:HM/A=889707/R=1/1011809810+http://us.rmi.yahoo.com/rmi/http://www.gloss
.com/rmi-framed-url/http://www.gloss.com/module/EsteeLauder/templates/pr
oduct/prod_multi.jhtml%3FmCategoryId=cat40207%26mktAdTrack=22000072> []
_____
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egrou
pmail/S=1705065791:HM/A=889707/rand=261055761>
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
parallel and related technologies? (just a JOKE, Mr. Moderator....)
David Romasco
-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Smith [mailto:pbs@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 1:15 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Unauthorized plans
For what it's worth, the fax was invented about the time of the US Civil
War.
"In 1865, Italian physics professor Giovanni Caselli establishes the
first
commercial fax system, which links Paris and several other French
cities,
using a device called a pentélégraphe which was a modification of Bains
original idea. He transmits nearly 5,000 faxes in the first year."
Interestingly enough, this was probably about the time of the highest
development of working sharpies in the US. Many of Bolger's boats are
based
on the sharpie form.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705
065791:HM/A=889707/R=0/*http://shop.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/clink?gloss2
+shopping:dmad/M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791
:HM/A=889707/R=1/1011809810+http://us.rmi.yahoo.com/rmi/http://www.gloss
.com/rmi-framed-url/http://www.gloss.com/module/EsteeLauder/templates/pr
oduct/prod_multi.jhtml%3FmCategoryId=cat40207%26mktAdTrack=22000072> []
_____
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egrou
pmail/S=1705065791:HM/A=889707/rand=261055761>
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
For what it's worth, the fax was invented about the time of the US Civil War.
"In 1865, Italian physics professor Giovanni Caselli establishes the first
commercial fax system, which links Paris and several other French cities,
using a device called a pentélégraphe which was a modification of Bains
original idea. He transmits nearly 5,000 faxes in the first year."
Interestingly enough, this was probably about the time of the highest
development of working sharpies in the US. Many of Bolger's boats are based
on the sharpie form.
"In 1865, Italian physics professor Giovanni Caselli establishes the first
commercial fax system, which links Paris and several other French cities,
using a device called a pentélégraphe which was a modification of Bains
original idea. He transmits nearly 5,000 faxes in the first year."
Interestingly enough, this was probably about the time of the highest
development of working sharpies in the US. Many of Bolger's boats are based
on the sharpie form.
This is OFF TOPIC. There are 1020 busy people on this
list who want to hear about building boats.
Before sending, please add something to the discussion.
Personal, pejorative, gratuitive missives belong off
(Bolger) list.
Thank you,
MODERATOR
Subscribe:Bolger_Rants-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:Bolger_Rants-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Bolger Rants and Raves, including:
- amateur copyright theory
- Bolger's website or catalog
- Phil's personal life
- guns and boats
- epoxy vs. polyester
list who want to hear about building boats.
Before sending, please add something to the discussion.
Personal, pejorative, gratuitive missives belong off
(Bolger) list.
Thank you,
MODERATOR
Subscribe:Bolger_Rants-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe:Bolger_Rants-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Bolger Rants and Raves, including:
- amateur copyright theory
- Bolger's website or catalog
- Phil's personal life
- guns and boats
- epoxy vs. polyester
--- In bolger@y..., "Charles Wilson" <wilson.c@b...> wrote:
> Fax belongs way back in the 20th century and you may not have
noticed Don
> but a while back we quietly slipped into the 21st century.
Fax belongs way back in the 20th century and you may not have noticed Don
but a while back we quietly slipped into the 21st century.
Charles
but a while back we quietly slipped into the 21st century.
Charles
----- Original Message -----
From: "Luke S" <biggie@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Unauthorized plans
> what Bruce said was quite valid and not disparaging towards PCB&F. I
would
> suggest that YOU relax a little.
>
> Luke S
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dbaldnz" <dbaldnz@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 5:13 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Unauthorized plans
>
>
> > Perhaps Bruce, if YOU got into the 21st century and used a fax, you
> > would find you may get replies about plan costs from Bolger back on
> > your desk within 30 minutes as I have! And a plan in my letterbox on
> > the other side of the world in 10 days or so. Relax a little.
> > This internet thing is a double-edged sword. I bet you if he became
> > internet available, his time wasted answering dreamers queries would
> > multiply like mad.
> > How do you know he wants to be a plan factory and sell millions of
> > plans? I suspect he is more than happy devoting his time to
> > exploring new designs and concepts.
> > DonB
> >
> > --- In bolger@y..., "bgbeck55" <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
> > > What seems to escape PCB and SA is that if they had a website
> > or
> > > print catalog available, they'd be more likely to get the business
> > > that now goes to CSB. As long as the insist on clinging to this
> > > clumsy fax or written letter via snail-mail business, CSB will
> > remain
> > > a thorn in their side. PCB has over 600 designs, but only a
> > fraction
> > > are known publicly. In a letter to MAIB, PCB said that a catalog
> > was
> > > in progress. Six and a half years later still no catalog.
> > > Let's be realistic; if you can order a set of "Micro" plans
> > with
> > > a few mouse clicks or a phone call, why would you want spend a
> > couple
> > > of weeks screwing around waiting on USPS? ( Write for a price, wait
> > a
> > > week [or more if not in the U.S.] for an answer; then send payment
> > > for the plans and wait some more)
> > > PCB&F needs to join the 21st century,
> > > Bruce
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
One of the things about the net offer is that as far
as I know the whole catalogue of plans is not
available elsewhere. So however he goes about it, and
he clearly wants to do it somehow, many of us would
like to see all the designs, for one reason or another
and there isn't any way to do that currently.
I have always bought plans from an appropriate source,
and don't think the suggestion in this thread is
otherwise, except that some leakage will occur if
people see sources on the net, and don't have the
knowledge to know whose offers are legitimate.
The ability to contact a designer for comments is
nice, but there are many designs that are sold where
the design is by a less well known architect, or one
who has passed away, or left the business. We are
lucky with what we get from Bolger, Payson etc...
right now in this regard.
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
as I know the whole catalogue of plans is not
available elsewhere. So however he goes about it, and
he clearly wants to do it somehow, many of us would
like to see all the designs, for one reason or another
and there isn't any way to do that currently.
I have always bought plans from an appropriate source,
and don't think the suggestion in this thread is
otherwise, except that some leakage will occur if
people see sources on the net, and don't have the
knowledge to know whose offers are legitimate.
The ability to contact a designer for comments is
nice, but there are many designs that are sold where
the design is by a less well known architect, or one
who has passed away, or left the business. We are
lucky with what we get from Bolger, Payson etc...
right now in this regard.
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
Mike, I'm interested in hearing more about your knockdown. As you
know, I'm builing the Chebacco light cruiser, which will be using the
pilothouse as last ditch reserver floatation.
BTW, what did you use for your windows? Acrylic? Lexan? How thick?
Did you get any water in the cockpit durring your knockdown?
Were you in the boat? Did your hanging on cause any problems with
righting?
Were the sails up? What knocked you over, a puff?
Details, please!
know, I'm builing the Chebacco light cruiser, which will be using the
pilothouse as last ditch reserver floatation.
BTW, what did you use for your windows? Acrylic? Lexan? How thick?
Did you get any water in the cockpit durring your knockdown?
Were you in the boat? Did your hanging on cause any problems with
righting?
Were the sails up? What knocked you over, a puff?
Details, please!
--- In bolger@y..., "mikestockstill" <mkstocks@b...> wrote:
> Hi -
>
> > Last I heard Bolger had released a re-vamped MJ and was suggesting
> > adding more ballast or lead sole to MJ's bottom?
>
> I have not felt the need to have the extra ballast on the bottom.
I
> fill my ballast tanks, secure any loose gear down low in the boat
> (which everyone should do anyway.
>
> Only once did I have a Martha Jane on the side - and that was due
to
> having the ballast only partially filled and no gear. The high
house
> and sponsons worked as advertised.
>
> Mike
>http://mkstocks.tripod.com/boats/martha_jane/
If I were PCB, I would want to retain control, I mean
have all these cooperative mail order ventures been a
bed of roses?. On a small enterprise any new
initiatives are going to conflict with all the design
work that comes into his shop also. He has said that
he has a few really big design jobs he wants to get
done, then he will try to do it, and in my letter,
where I certainly didn't raise it, his response
included that he intended to get all the designs
online. He could easily just say "I hate computers",
and leave it at that. So I take him at his word that
he wants to get all these designs out, and he sees the
web as a way to do it instead of a book. The problem
is he would only need to receive a few new big
commissions and the web thing might never get done.
If BH wins the lottery and is able to commission his
carrier, game over!
--- pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
past retirement age by a ways and putting up a website
would increase <BR>
demands on his time by a large amount. <BR>
<BR>
And has a two-year backlog of hand-picked
projects.<BR>
<BR>
Let's also remember that the small boat, home-build
market is the <BR>
tail that wags the dog for PCB&F. I think they
really like the little <BR>
boats, but the serious money is in big projects.<BR>
<BR>
Mr. Bolger's habits and attitudes were developed long
before his <BR>
marriage when he sold small boat plans for little more
than the price <BR>
of copying the prints. SA got him on a somewhat more
business-like <BR>
footing and the prices were raised to the low side of
average. <BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
<br>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"
color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=889707/R=0/*http://shop.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/clink?gloss2+shopping:dmad/M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=889707/R=1/1011722755+http://us.rmi.yahoo.com/rmi/http://www.gloss.com/rmi-framed-url/http://www.gloss.com/module/EsteeLauder/templates/product/prod_multi.jhtml%3FmCategoryId=cat40207%26mktAdTrack=22000072"><img
src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/an/anchor/shopping/gloss/gel_ncs_fragrance_intution.jpg"
width=300 height=250 ALT="[]" border=0></a><p></td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egroupmail/S=1705065791:HM/A=889707/rand=962639700"></td></tr>
</table>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
<br>
<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>
</body></html>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
have all these cooperative mail order ventures been a
bed of roses?. On a small enterprise any new
initiatives are going to conflict with all the design
work that comes into his shop also. He has said that
he has a few really big design jobs he wants to get
done, then he will try to do it, and in my letter,
where I certainly didn't raise it, his response
included that he intended to get all the designs
online. He could easily just say "I hate computers",
and leave it at that. So I take him at his word that
he wants to get all these designs out, and he sees the
web as a way to do it instead of a book. The problem
is he would only need to receive a few new big
commissions and the web thing might never get done.
If BH wins the lottery and is able to commission his
carrier, game over!
--- pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
> I believe it's practicality on Mr. Bolger'sside. He is after all <BR>
past retirement age by a ways and putting up a website
would increase <BR>
demands on his time by a large amount. <BR>
<BR>
And has a two-year backlog of hand-picked
projects.<BR>
<BR>
Let's also remember that the small boat, home-build
market is the <BR>
tail that wags the dog for PCB&F. I think they
really like the little <BR>
boats, but the serious money is in big projects.<BR>
<BR>
Mr. Bolger's habits and attitudes were developed long
before his <BR>
marriage when he sold small boat plans for little more
than the price <BR>
of copying the prints. SA got him on a somewhat more
business-like <BR>
footing and the prices were raised to the low side of
average. <BR>
<BR>
Peter<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
<br>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"
color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=889707/R=0/*http://shop.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/clink?gloss2+shopping:dmad/M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=889707/R=1/1011722755+http://us.rmi.yahoo.com/rmi/http://www.gloss.com/rmi-framed-url/http://www.gloss.com/module/EsteeLauder/templates/product/prod_multi.jhtml%3FmCategoryId=cat40207%26mktAdTrack=22000072"><img
src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/an/anchor/shopping/gloss/gel_ncs_fragrance_intution.jpg"
![http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/an/anchor/shopping/gloss/gel_ncs_fragrance_intution.jpg"](http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/an/anchor/shopping/gloss/gel_ncs_fragrance_intution.jpg"){kind=link}
width=300 height=250 ALT="[]" border=0></a><p></td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=153641.1824646.3335993.1261774/D=egroupmail/S=1705065791:HM/A=889707/rand=962639700"></td></tr>
</table>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
<br>
<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>
</body></html>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
As you may know Mike, I think your boat is beautiful!
And I like the look.
My general feeling about sponsoons is that they
represent a rather inefficient placement for a
trimaran's floats ;O). The same is true for instance
of their placement of sponsoons on some modern proas.
The famous comment by the OSTAR committee, about the
proa Cheers, that they didn't feel it represented
seamanship to cross the ocean all the while
periodicaly capsizing, is a ligitimate point, but then
Cheers smoked the field being beaten by boats only
many quantunms larger than her. Proas have gone on to
represent a unique series of attibutes, because of the
sponsoon. So I am torn.
None the less I am still interested in the original
design and wonder how it can be made better without
such radical departure. One alternative is a masthead
float. The Gougeon 32, a fast sailing cat, used a
massive masthead float that functioned both as wind
indicator and to terminate capsise at 90 deg. Drag
was not apparently excesive. I am not suggesting this
is the solution, but it is worth considering,
particularly since the trailer sailer could add this
at will depending on the weather report. It could
also in certain cases possibly be integrated into
modernistic spars for sails like the lug and gaft,
which carry some volume up high.
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
And I like the look.
My general feeling about sponsoons is that they
represent a rather inefficient placement for a
trimaran's floats ;O). The same is true for instance
of their placement of sponsoons on some modern proas.
The famous comment by the OSTAR committee, about the
proa Cheers, that they didn't feel it represented
seamanship to cross the ocean all the while
periodicaly capsizing, is a ligitimate point, but then
Cheers smoked the field being beaten by boats only
many quantunms larger than her. Proas have gone on to
represent a unique series of attibutes, because of the
sponsoon. So I am torn.
None the less I am still interested in the original
design and wonder how it can be made better without
such radical departure. One alternative is a masthead
float. The Gougeon 32, a fast sailing cat, used a
massive masthead float that functioned both as wind
indicator and to terminate capsise at 90 deg. Drag
was not apparently excesive. I am not suggesting this
is the solution, but it is worth considering,
particularly since the trailer sailer could add this
at will depending on the weather report. It could
also in certain cases possibly be integrated into
modernistic spars for sails like the lug and gaft,
which carry some volume up high.
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
The point that some of you who want PCB's plan available on the internet and
have used some reasonably strong language in this respect, is that PCB
designs boats for a living, as a self employed person. If someone else is
profiting from his work, at his expense, that is wrong! How he chooses to go
about his own business, is his own business. Irrespective of whether or not
it is convenient for anyone else. If he is not up to date with the latest
mass marketing methods, or chooses not to use them, that is his right. It
doesn't give anyone else the right to step in with those methods, while in
effect stealing the product for sale (the word stealing refers to the moral
action, irrespective of legalities). If people are interested enough in his
designs enough to want to find out more about them they should make the
effort to find out about them from legitimate sources. If they aren't
prepared to make the effort, then they probably aren't interested enough.
I can understand Pippo feeling down about PCB's response to plans he had
paid for, but would he have felt that way if when buying the plans, he was
told these are stolen plans, for which the moral (if not legal) owner will
get nothing for.
As to it taking a whole two weeks to get his plans. How long does it take to
build a boat? Surely anyone with enough planning and time management skills
to build a boat can plan on working through the plan purchasing early enough
to start building on what ever schedule they have set themselves.
Apologies for the rant, but there has been some right proper childish tripe
on the subject lately.
Stuart Crawford
New Zealand
on 23/1/02 1:59 AM, bgbeck55 atbgbeck55@...wrote:
have used some reasonably strong language in this respect, is that PCB
designs boats for a living, as a self employed person. If someone else is
profiting from his work, at his expense, that is wrong! How he chooses to go
about his own business, is his own business. Irrespective of whether or not
it is convenient for anyone else. If he is not up to date with the latest
mass marketing methods, or chooses not to use them, that is his right. It
doesn't give anyone else the right to step in with those methods, while in
effect stealing the product for sale (the word stealing refers to the moral
action, irrespective of legalities). If people are interested enough in his
designs enough to want to find out more about them they should make the
effort to find out about them from legitimate sources. If they aren't
prepared to make the effort, then they probably aren't interested enough.
I can understand Pippo feeling down about PCB's response to plans he had
paid for, but would he have felt that way if when buying the plans, he was
told these are stolen plans, for which the moral (if not legal) owner will
get nothing for.
As to it taking a whole two weeks to get his plans. How long does it take to
build a boat? Surely anyone with enough planning and time management skills
to build a boat can plan on working through the plan purchasing early enough
to start building on what ever schedule they have set themselves.
Apologies for the rant, but there has been some right proper childish tripe
on the subject lately.
Stuart Crawford
New Zealand
on 23/1/02 1:59 AM, bgbeck55 atbgbeck55@...wrote:
> DonB, RELAX. I have a fax program and used it to contact PCB&F.
> It's still a clumsier arrangement than a a website. It was still two
> weeks before I had the plans in hand. And that was just across the
> U.S.A.
> What you seem to have taken as a personal attack on PCB is a
> comment on his business practices as it relates to the PCB&F/ CSD/CSB
> mess. CSD followed by CSB is readily accessible. PCB&F isn't. People
> take the path of least resistance and buy plans from CSB. There is
> nothing on the CSB website to indicate the bad blood between PCB&F
> and CSB, so people conact PCB only to be rebuked and castigated. Ask
> Pippo about it. If PCB&F were as easily available, then PCB and SA
> wouldn't have to deal with the CSB "problem" as often. If there was
> no PCB&F/CSB controversy, then we wouldn't be having this discussion
> at all.
> As far as the dreamers you mentioned, a site can be set up through
> a third party as is the case with H.H. Payson. The dreamers would
> still have to write or fax, while those wanting to buy could do so.
> If they don't want to go the internet route, a print catalog would
> work also. As it now stands, pricing information has to be written or
> faxed for. Wouldn't it be easier to pull out the ole catalog and look
> it up?
> The written word conveys no emotion. You and another have assumed
> that I wrote my first post with a red face and steam coming out of my
> ears. Such was not the case. I was merely commenting on the earlier
> posts regarding "..is PCB aiding those who bought from CSB?". FWIW,
> there is a solution to their problem.
> Bruce
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "dbaldnz" <dbaldnz@y...> wrote:
>> Perhaps Bruce, if YOU got into the 21st century and used a fax, you
>> would find you may get replies about plan costs from Bolger back on
>> your desk within 30 minutes as I have! And a plan in my letterbox
> on
>> the other side of the world in 10 days or so. Relax a little.
>> This internet thing is a double-edged sword. I bet you if he became
>> internet available, his time wasted answering dreamers queries
> would
>> multiply like mad.
>> How do you know he wants to be a plan factory and sell millions of
>> plans? I suspect he is more than happy devoting his time to
>> exploring new designs and concepts.
>> DonB
Cheers Bruce :)
.....DonB flops down with a beer musing about the pitfalls and traps
of the electronic media.
DonB
.....DonB flops down with a beer musing about the pitfalls and traps
of the electronic media.
DonB
--- In bolger@y..., "bgbeck55" <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
> DonB, RELAX. I have a fax program and used it to contact PCB&F.
> It's still a clumsier arrangement than a a website. It was still
two
> weeks before I had the plans in hand. And that was just across the
> U.S.A.
> What you seem to have taken as a personal attack on PCB is a
> comment on his business practices as it relates to the PCB&F/
CSD/CSB
> mess. CSD followed by CSB is readily accessible. PCB&F isn't.
People
> take the path of least resistance and buy plans from CSB. There is
> nothing on the CSB website to indicate the bad blood between PCB&F
> and CSB, so people conact PCB only to be rebuked and castigated.
Ask
> Pippo about it. If PCB&F were as easily available, then PCB and SA
> wouldn't have to deal with the CSB "problem" as often. If there was
> no PCB&F/CSB controversy, then we wouldn't be having this
discussion
> at all.
> As far as the dreamers you mentioned, a site can be set up
through
> a third party as is the case with H.H. Payson. The dreamers would
> still have to write or fax, while those wanting to buy could do so.
> If they don't want to go the internet route, a print catalog would
> work also. As it now stands, pricing information has to be written
or
> faxed for. Wouldn't it be easier to pull out the ole catalog and
look
> it up?
> The written word conveys no emotion. You and another have
assumed
> that I wrote my first post with a red face and steam coming out of
my
> ears. Such was not the case. I was merely commenting on the earlier
> posts regarding "..is PCB aiding those who bought from CSB?". FWIW,
> there is a solution to their problem.
> Bruce
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "dbaldnz" <dbaldnz@y...> wrote:
> > Perhaps Bruce, if YOU got into the 21st century and used a fax,
you
> > would find you may get replies about plan costs from Bolger back
on
> > your desk within 30 minutes as I have! And a plan in my letterbox
> on
> > the other side of the world in 10 days or so. Relax a little.
> > This internet thing is a double-edged sword. I bet you if he
became
> > internet available, his time wasted answering dreamers queries
> would
> > multiply like mad.
> > How do you know he wants to be a plan factory and sell millions
of
> > plans? I suspect he is more than happy devoting his time to
> > exploring new designs and concepts.
> > DonB
> >
> >
Hi Mike: I want to make sure I understand you correctly: you bought
JUST the PCB articles, as opposed to the entire issue? How much did
Bob charge?
Thanks.
copies is an option. That collection seems to be the most
up-to-date and volumunious!
JUST the PCB articles, as opposed to the entire issue? How much did
Bob charge?
Thanks.
> Several months ago I bought from Bob Hicks copies of all of theBolger articles in the back issues of MAIB - so contacting Bob for
copies is an option. That collection seems to be the most
up-to-date and volumunious!
>
> Mike
Please - keep it cool, not personal, stay on topic.
Thanks, Moderator
Thanks, Moderator
--- In bolger@y..., "Luke S" <biggie@d...> wrote:
> what Bruce said was quite valid and not disparaging towards PCB&F.
>I would suggest that YOU relax a little.
>
> Luke S
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dbaldnz" <dbaldnz@y...>
> To: <bolger@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 5:13 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Unauthorized plans
>
>
> > Perhaps Bruce, if YOU got into the 21st century and used a fax,
you
> > would find you may get replies about plan costs from Bolger back
on
> > your desk within 30 minutes as I have! And a plan in my letterbox
on
> > the other side of the world in 10 days or so. Relax a little.
> > This internet thing is a double-edged sword. I bet you if he
became
> > internet available, his time wasted answering dreamers queries
would
> > multiply like mad.
> > How do you know he wants to be a plan factory and sell millions of
> > plans? I suspect he is more than happy devoting his time to
> > exploring new designs and concepts.
> > DonB
> >
Hi -
with Phil and Susanne. Both of them like the idea. However doing it
right takes time, and that is time that they would rather be spending
designing boats. Frankly, people who commission designs from them
would also rather they spend the time designing boats! They live
quite modestly, keep their overhead down, and hence can devote time
to solving new design problems.
So what is the answer? For now, the best solution seems to be forums
such as 'messing about in BOATS' for a published presentation, the
web (here and Tim Fatchen's web site), and our eGroup. If everybody
keeps their web sites stable and current, that would help
tremendously.
Once I move aboard (in about 4 years) I plan to take time to create
and post a web catalog purely for my own erudition. If it helps
sales, then so be it.
Several months ago I bought from Bob Hicks copies of all of the
Bolger articles in the back issues of MAIB - so contacting Bob for
copies is an option. That collection seems to be the most up-to-date
and volumunious!
Happy Hunting.
Mike
> Why don't we, as a group, contact PCB&F and offer to do the gruntI brought up the topic of a catalog / website during a recent visit
> work necessary to get a Bolger site online? I mean, there's more
> than a thousand of us here. Surely enough of us would be willing to
> devote some time to scanning documents, building pages, or whatever
> else is needed.
with Phil and Susanne. Both of them like the idea. However doing it
right takes time, and that is time that they would rather be spending
designing boats. Frankly, people who commission designs from them
would also rather they spend the time designing boats! They live
quite modestly, keep their overhead down, and hence can devote time
to solving new design problems.
So what is the answer? For now, the best solution seems to be forums
such as 'messing about in BOATS' for a published presentation, the
web (here and Tim Fatchen's web site), and our eGroup. If everybody
keeps their web sites stable and current, that would help
tremendously.
Once I move aboard (in about 4 years) I plan to take time to create
and post a web catalog purely for my own erudition. If it helps
sales, then so be it.
Several months ago I bought from Bob Hicks copies of all of the
Bolger articles in the back issues of MAIB - so contacting Bob for
copies is an option. That collection seems to be the most up-to-date
and volumunious!
Happy Hunting.
Mike
> I believe it's practicality on Mr. Bolger's side. He is after allpast retirement age by a ways and putting up a website would increase
demands on his time by a large amount.
And has a two-year backlog of hand-picked projects.
Let's also remember that the small boat, home-build market is the
tail that wags the dog for PCB&F. I think they really like the little
boats, but the serious money is in big projects.
Mr. Bolger's habits and attitudes were developed long before his
marriage when he sold small boat plans for little more than the price
of copying the prints. SA got him on a somewhat more business-like
footing and the prices were raised to the low side of average.
Peter
I believe it's practicality on Mr. Bolger's side. He is after all past retirement age by a ways and putting up a website would increase demands on his time by a large amount.
If he had email, I'm sure he'd spend all day answering or have to hire somebody to do it for him. Hundreds per day is not hard to imagine.
If I'm lucky and make it to retirement, I would want to simplify my life and just dabble in the things I love to do instead of getting busier.
Maybe we could simply build a photo collection of designs that have been built with some notes on the design number and name. With the experience this group has, answering questions on most designs should easy.
Just an opinion.
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If he had email, I'm sure he'd spend all day answering or have to hire somebody to do it for him. Hundreds per day is not hard to imagine.
If I'm lucky and make it to retirement, I would want to simplify my life and just dabble in the things I love to do instead of getting busier.
Maybe we could simply build a photo collection of designs that have been built with some notes on the design number and name. With the experience this group has, answering questions on most designs should easy.
Just an opinion.
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Despite the promises of a catalog and/or a web site, one senses that
PCB doesn't really want to do either, as it appears that the
"obstacles" to a site are not technical, financial, or logistical.
There's no question that a site could be done as Pete suggests, but
"not violating his copyright" would probably preclude having any
scans of his drawings, or any of his own descriptions of the boats.
Anyone know who owns the copyright to the material in MAIB? PCB or
Bob Hicks? Perhaps arrangements could be made to scan it all and
make it available online in some organized fashion? (I suggest this
in part because PCB's stock reply to many faxed inquiries seems to be
faxing out the appropriate MAIB article, with a few additional
comments and pricing.)
Steve
PCB doesn't really want to do either, as it appears that the
"obstacles" to a site are not technical, financial, or logistical.
There's no question that a site could be done as Pete suggests, but
"not violating his copyright" would probably preclude having any
scans of his drawings, or any of his own descriptions of the boats.
Anyone know who owns the copyright to the material in MAIB? PCB or
Bob Hicks? Perhaps arrangements could be made to scan it all and
make it available online in some organized fashion? (I suggest this
in part because PCB's stock reply to many faxed inquiries seems to be
faxing out the appropriate MAIB article, with a few additional
comments and pricing.)
Steve
> I doubt that he would OK it as officially representing him. Iwould
> suggest that a site that has a catalog of all of his know designs
> would not require his approval (or upset him) if:
> 1. It didn't claim to represent him.
> 2. Didn't contain any material that violated his copyright.
>
> It seems to me as if anyone can create such a site if they desire.
> Some of the entries may be only text documents if pictures are
> unavailable, but hey that is at least something.
>
> Pete
--- In bolger@y..., "s_paskey" <stephen@p...> wrote:
suggest that a site that has a catalog of all of his know designs
would not require his approval (or upset him) if:
1. It didn't claim to represent him.
2. Didn't contain any material that violated his copyright.
It seems to me as if anyone can create such a site if they desire.
Some of the entries may be only text documents if pictures are
unavailable, but hey that is at least something.
Pete
> This discussion is getting old, so I'd like to throw down theI doubt that he would OK it as officially representing him. I would
> gauntlet.
>
> Why don't we, as a group, contact PCB&F and offer to do the grunt
> work necessary to get a Bolger site online? I mean, there's more
> than a thousand of us here. Surely enough of us would be willing to
> devote some time to scanning documents, building pages, or whatever
> else is needed.
suggest that a site that has a catalog of all of his know designs
would not require his approval (or upset him) if:
1. It didn't claim to represent him.
2. Didn't contain any material that violated his copyright.
It seems to me as if anyone can create such a site if they desire.
Some of the entries may be only text documents if pictures are
unavailable, but hey that is at least something.
Pete
I wrote them (via snail mail even) and offered to do thier website,
including all the scanning and building, for a percentage of the
online sales. They were not interested.
Maybe they would go for what you suggest below, but I doubt it.
including all the scanning and building, for a percentage of the
online sales. They were not interested.
Maybe they would go for what you suggest below, but I doubt it.
--- In bolger@y..., "s_paskey" <stephen@p...> wrote:
> This discussion is getting old, so I'd like to throw down the
> gauntlet.
>
> Why don't we, as a group, contact PCB&F and offer to do the grunt
> work necessary to get a Bolger site online? I mean, there's more
> than a thousand of us here. Surely enough of us would be willing to
> devote some time to scanning documents, building pages, or whatever
> else is needed.
>
> There's no need to do it all at once. We could start with a group
of
> the most popular designs, and add to it over time. All that PCB&F
> would need to do is bless the concept, provide us with a hardcopy
of
> the necessary materials, and approve each page before it goes up.
No
> need for any e-mail, other than a "webmaster" contact to fix
things.
> PCB&F could continue to rely on fax and snail mail for contact with
> customers, and could remain blissfully in whatever century they
> happen to be in on a given day.
>
> Any thoughts? Any volunteers to approach PCB&F with the idea?
>
> Steve Paskey
I think this whole Bolger thing is a hoot! As a brand new boatbuilder I
got my start and intro to Bolger designs through Paysons work. Payson had
the neat plywood designs like Nymph, Gypsey etc. Who was this BOLGER
anyway, No rep, no visibility, and how is he connected to the Payson boats?
Now having been shown the "man behind the curtain" I get the picture.
Don't you have to promote your product to be able to produce new product
(plans)? IMHO a web catalog, or some catalog, could go a long way to
getting the word out to the new guys. Heck, just this last week I learned
that Bolger, with over 600 plans, is **more** than a cult designer! Lots
of web based catalog businesses take forever to return e-mail so having the
day burned up catering to idle dreamers is really a red herring! Send a
request to Payson for example! In fact, most plans for amateurs that are
bought never get built. The dreamer plays a pretty big role in the amateur
boat builders market! Designers that work in the 21st century however, gave
us rotomolding! :) It seems that if you leave your work in the hands of
others to do with as they see fit, things happen and you can't complain
after the fact!
Jim Kalupa
Technology Director
Fall River School District
Fall River WI
53932
(920) 484-3333 ext. 269
http://www.fallriver.k12.wi.us
got my start and intro to Bolger designs through Paysons work. Payson had
the neat plywood designs like Nymph, Gypsey etc. Who was this BOLGER
anyway, No rep, no visibility, and how is he connected to the Payson boats?
Now having been shown the "man behind the curtain" I get the picture.
Don't you have to promote your product to be able to produce new product
(plans)? IMHO a web catalog, or some catalog, could go a long way to
getting the word out to the new guys. Heck, just this last week I learned
that Bolger, with over 600 plans, is **more** than a cult designer! Lots
of web based catalog businesses take forever to return e-mail so having the
day burned up catering to idle dreamers is really a red herring! Send a
request to Payson for example! In fact, most plans for amateurs that are
bought never get built. The dreamer plays a pretty big role in the amateur
boat builders market! Designers that work in the 21st century however, gave
us rotomolding! :) It seems that if you leave your work in the hands of
others to do with as they see fit, things happen and you can't complain
after the fact!
Jim Kalupa
Technology Director
Fall River School District
Fall River WI
53932
(920) 484-3333 ext. 269
http://www.fallriver.k12.wi.us
This discussion is getting old, so I'd like to throw down the
gauntlet.
Why don't we, as a group, contact PCB&F and offer to do the grunt
work necessary to get a Bolger site online? I mean, there's more
than a thousand of us here. Surely enough of us would be willing to
devote some time to scanning documents, building pages, or whatever
else is needed.
There's no need to do it all at once. We could start with a group of
the most popular designs, and add to it over time. All that PCB&F
would need to do is bless the concept, provide us with a hardcopy of
the necessary materials, and approve each page before it goes up. No
need for any e-mail, other than a "webmaster" contact to fix things.
PCB&F could continue to rely on fax and snail mail for contact with
customers, and could remain blissfully in whatever century they
happen to be in on a given day.
Any thoughts? Any volunteers to approach PCB&F with the idea?
Steve Paskey
gauntlet.
Why don't we, as a group, contact PCB&F and offer to do the grunt
work necessary to get a Bolger site online? I mean, there's more
than a thousand of us here. Surely enough of us would be willing to
devote some time to scanning documents, building pages, or whatever
else is needed.
There's no need to do it all at once. We could start with a group of
the most popular designs, and add to it over time. All that PCB&F
would need to do is bless the concept, provide us with a hardcopy of
the necessary materials, and approve each page before it goes up. No
need for any e-mail, other than a "webmaster" contact to fix things.
PCB&F could continue to rely on fax and snail mail for contact with
customers, and could remain blissfully in whatever century they
happen to be in on a given day.
Any thoughts? Any volunteers to approach PCB&F with the idea?
Steve Paskey
Hi -
fill my ballast tanks, secure any loose gear down low in the boat
(which everyone should do anyway.
Only once did I have a Martha Jane on the side - and that was due to
having the ballast only partially filled and no gear. The high house
and sponsons worked as advertised.
Mike
http://mkstocks.tripod.com/boats/martha_jane/
> Last I heard Bolger had released a re-vamped MJ and was suggestingI have not felt the need to have the extra ballast on the bottom. I
> adding more ballast or lead sole to MJ's bottom?
fill my ballast tanks, secure any loose gear down low in the boat
(which everyone should do anyway.
Only once did I have a Martha Jane on the side - and that was due to
having the ballast only partially filled and no gear. The high house
and sponsons worked as advertised.
Mike
http://mkstocks.tripod.com/boats/martha_jane/
DonB, RELAX. I have a fax program and used it to contact PCB&F.
It's still a clumsier arrangement than a a website. It was still two
weeks before I had the plans in hand. And that was just across the
U.S.A.
What you seem to have taken as a personal attack on PCB is a
comment on his business practices as it relates to the PCB&F/ CSD/CSB
mess. CSD followed by CSB is readily accessible. PCB&F isn't. People
take the path of least resistance and buy plans from CSB. There is
nothing on the CSB website to indicate the bad blood between PCB&F
and CSB, so people conact PCB only to be rebuked and castigated. Ask
Pippo about it. If PCB&F were as easily available, then PCB and SA
wouldn't have to deal with the CSB "problem" as often. If there was
no PCB&F/CSB controversy, then we wouldn't be having this discussion
at all.
As far as the dreamers you mentioned, a site can be set up through
a third party as is the case with H.H. Payson. The dreamers would
still have to write or fax, while those wanting to buy could do so.
If they don't want to go the internet route, a print catalog would
work also. As it now stands, pricing information has to be written or
faxed for. Wouldn't it be easier to pull out the ole catalog and look
it up?
The written word conveys no emotion. You and another have assumed
that I wrote my first post with a red face and steam coming out of my
ears. Such was not the case. I was merely commenting on the earlier
posts regarding "..is PCB aiding those who bought from CSB?". FWIW,
there is a solution to their problem.
Bruce
It's still a clumsier arrangement than a a website. It was still two
weeks before I had the plans in hand. And that was just across the
U.S.A.
What you seem to have taken as a personal attack on PCB is a
comment on his business practices as it relates to the PCB&F/ CSD/CSB
mess. CSD followed by CSB is readily accessible. PCB&F isn't. People
take the path of least resistance and buy plans from CSB. There is
nothing on the CSB website to indicate the bad blood between PCB&F
and CSB, so people conact PCB only to be rebuked and castigated. Ask
Pippo about it. If PCB&F were as easily available, then PCB and SA
wouldn't have to deal with the CSB "problem" as often. If there was
no PCB&F/CSB controversy, then we wouldn't be having this discussion
at all.
As far as the dreamers you mentioned, a site can be set up through
a third party as is the case with H.H. Payson. The dreamers would
still have to write or fax, while those wanting to buy could do so.
If they don't want to go the internet route, a print catalog would
work also. As it now stands, pricing information has to be written or
faxed for. Wouldn't it be easier to pull out the ole catalog and look
it up?
The written word conveys no emotion. You and another have assumed
that I wrote my first post with a red face and steam coming out of my
ears. Such was not the case. I was merely commenting on the earlier
posts regarding "..is PCB aiding those who bought from CSB?". FWIW,
there is a solution to their problem.
Bruce
--- In bolger@y..., "dbaldnz" <dbaldnz@y...> wrote:
> Perhaps Bruce, if YOU got into the 21st century and used a fax, you
> would find you may get replies about plan costs from Bolger back on
> your desk within 30 minutes as I have! And a plan in my letterbox
on
> the other side of the world in 10 days or so. Relax a little.
> This internet thing is a double-edged sword. I bet you if he became
> internet available, his time wasted answering dreamers queries
would
> multiply like mad.
> How do you know he wants to be a plan factory and sell millions of
> plans? I suspect he is more than happy devoting his time to
> exploring new designs and concepts.
> DonB
>
>
If you want the 21st century perhaps you need to
change navel architects.
Larry
--- bgbeck55 <bgbeck55@...> wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
change navel architects.
Larry
--- bgbeck55 <bgbeck55@...> wrote:
> What seems to escape PCB and SA is that if they__________________________________________________
> had a website or
> print catalog available, they'd be more likely to
> get the business
> that now goes to CSB. As long as the insist on
> clinging to this
> clumsy fax or written letter via snail-mail
> business, CSB will remain
> a thorn in their side. PCB has over 600 designs, but
> only a fraction
> are known publicly. In a letter to MAIB, PCB said
> that a catalog was
> in progress. Six and a half years later still no
> catalog.
> Let's be realistic; if you can order a set of
> "Micro" plans with
> a few mouse clicks or a phone call, why would you
> want spend a couple
> of weeks screwing around waiting on USPS? ( Write
> for a price, wait a
> week [or more if not in the U.S.] for an answer;
> then send payment
> for the plans and wait some more)
> PCB&F needs to join the 21st century,
> Bruce
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell
> <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> > They seem to be easing away from this kind of
> stuff,
> > they have been issueing a blizzard of revisions
> and
> > alternative arrangements, and jacking the prices
> on
> > stock plans. The marketing phase is over, time to
> get
> > a descent return from his global reputation.
> Sounds
> > fair to me. Does anyone know whether SA is behind
> the
> > business plan?
> >
> ://website.yahoo.ca
>
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
what Bruce said was quite valid and not disparaging towards PCB&F. I would
suggest that YOU relax a little.
Luke S
suggest that YOU relax a little.
Luke S
----- Original Message -----
From: "dbaldnz" <dbaldnz@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 5:13 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Unauthorized plans
> Perhaps Bruce, if YOU got into the 21st century and used a fax, you
> would find you may get replies about plan costs from Bolger back on
> your desk within 30 minutes as I have! And a plan in my letterbox on
> the other side of the world in 10 days or so. Relax a little.
> This internet thing is a double-edged sword. I bet you if he became
> internet available, his time wasted answering dreamers queries would
> multiply like mad.
> How do you know he wants to be a plan factory and sell millions of
> plans? I suspect he is more than happy devoting his time to
> exploring new designs and concepts.
> DonB
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "bgbeck55" <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
> > What seems to escape PCB and SA is that if they had a website
> or
> > print catalog available, they'd be more likely to get the business
> > that now goes to CSB. As long as the insist on clinging to this
> > clumsy fax or written letter via snail-mail business, CSB will
> remain
> > a thorn in their side. PCB has over 600 designs, but only a
> fraction
> > are known publicly. In a letter to MAIB, PCB said that a catalog
> was
> > in progress. Six and a half years later still no catalog.
> > Let's be realistic; if you can order a set of "Micro" plans
> with
> > a few mouse clicks or a phone call, why would you want spend a
> couple
> > of weeks screwing around waiting on USPS? ( Write for a price, wait
> a
> > week [or more if not in the U.S.] for an answer; then send payment
> > for the plans and wait some more)
> > PCB&F needs to join the 21st century,
> > Bruce
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Perhaps Bruce, if YOU got into the 21st century and used a fax, you
would find you may get replies about plan costs from Bolger back on
your desk within 30 minutes as I have! And a plan in my letterbox on
the other side of the world in 10 days or so. Relax a little.
This internet thing is a double-edged sword. I bet you if he became
internet available, his time wasted answering dreamers queries would
multiply like mad.
How do you know he wants to be a plan factory and sell millions of
plans? I suspect he is more than happy devoting his time to
exploring new designs and concepts.
DonB
would find you may get replies about plan costs from Bolger back on
your desk within 30 minutes as I have! And a plan in my letterbox on
the other side of the world in 10 days or so. Relax a little.
This internet thing is a double-edged sword. I bet you if he became
internet available, his time wasted answering dreamers queries would
multiply like mad.
How do you know he wants to be a plan factory and sell millions of
plans? I suspect he is more than happy devoting his time to
exploring new designs and concepts.
DonB
--- In bolger@y..., "bgbeck55" <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
> What seems to escape PCB and SA is that if they had a website
or
> print catalog available, they'd be more likely to get the business
> that now goes to CSB. As long as the insist on clinging to this
> clumsy fax or written letter via snail-mail business, CSB will
remain
> a thorn in their side. PCB has over 600 designs, but only a
fraction
> are known publicly. In a letter to MAIB, PCB said that a catalog
was
> in progress. Six and a half years later still no catalog.
> Let's be realistic; if you can order a set of "Micro" plans
with
> a few mouse clicks or a phone call, why would you want spend a
couple
> of weeks screwing around waiting on USPS? ( Write for a price, wait
a
> week [or more if not in the U.S.] for an answer; then send payment
> for the plans and wait some more)
> PCB&F needs to join the 21st century,
> Bruce
What seems to escape PCB and SA is that if they had a website or
print catalog available, they'd be more likely to get the business
that now goes to CSB. As long as the insist on clinging to this
clumsy fax or written letter via snail-mail business, CSB will remain
a thorn in their side. PCB has over 600 designs, but only a fraction
are known publicly. In a letter to MAIB, PCB said that a catalog was
in progress. Six and a half years later still no catalog.
Let's be realistic; if you can order a set of "Micro" plans with
a few mouse clicks or a phone call, why would you want spend a couple
of weeks screwing around waiting on USPS? ( Write for a price, wait a
week [or more if not in the U.S.] for an answer; then send payment
for the plans and wait some more)
PCB&F needs to join the 21st century,
Bruce
print catalog available, they'd be more likely to get the business
that now goes to CSB. As long as the insist on clinging to this
clumsy fax or written letter via snail-mail business, CSB will remain
a thorn in their side. PCB has over 600 designs, but only a fraction
are known publicly. In a letter to MAIB, PCB said that a catalog was
in progress. Six and a half years later still no catalog.
Let's be realistic; if you can order a set of "Micro" plans with
a few mouse clicks or a phone call, why would you want spend a couple
of weeks screwing around waiting on USPS? ( Write for a price, wait a
week [or more if not in the U.S.] for an answer; then send payment
for the plans and wait some more)
PCB&F needs to join the 21st century,
Bruce
--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
> They seem to be easing away from this kind of stuff,
> they have been issueing a blizzard of revisions and
> alternative arrangements, and jacking the prices on
> stock plans. The marketing phase is over, time to get
> a descent return from his global reputation. Sounds
> fair to me. Does anyone know whether SA is behind the
> business plan?
>
://website.yahoo.ca
There's your answer. Time and trouble, too.
thomas dalzell wrote:
thomas dalzell wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
>So is it possible
> assertion may have occured (?) but not to the point of
> a lawsuit, which is doubtless more expensive than the
> money in question would warrant.
>
Mark,
Would a letter saying whatever be sufficient to assert
rights? I don't get the sense there has been zero
exchange (neither do I know one way or the other), but
there may be zero agreement. So is it possible
assertion may have occured (?) but not to the point of
a lawsuit, which is doubtless more expensive than the
money in question would warrant.
--- Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
I'm not an attorney, Thom. ( the exploits of Louis
Nizer, F.<BR>
Lee Bailey et al were interesting to me as a kid, but
the<BR>
anticipated drear of torts and fenders bent, wills
and<BR>
copyright discouraged me from law school. )<BR>
<BR>
But I do know that in order to enforce a copyright,
one has<BR>
to act in order to preserve it. Meaning that 20 years
down<BR>
the river claiming, "You did me wrong"
is useless.<BR>
<BR>
Your trademark question is a good one. I've never seen
"TM"<BR>
on any of the Bolger's stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Can't speak for them, of course, but I doubt your
upgrade<BR>
scheme would fly. The best thing from the Bolger's
point of<BR>
view might be for CSD and Ducktrap both to leave their
boats alone.<BR>
<BR>
BTW the protection for text as opposed to boat designs
is a<BR>
little longer, now up to at least 47 years, I think.
So<BR>
before anybody decides to reissue 30-Odd Boats
themselves,<BR>
better talk with your attorney!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Mark<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
thomas dalzell wrote:<BR>
<br>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"
color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><table border=0
cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font
face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl"
target=_top><img
src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300_1b.gif"
width="300" height="250"
border="0"></a></td></tr></table></td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmail/S=1705065791:HM/A=935585/rand=385539827"></td></tr>
</table>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
<br>
<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>
</body></html>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
Would a letter saying whatever be sufficient to assert
rights? I don't get the sense there has been zero
exchange (neither do I know one way or the other), but
there may be zero agreement. So is it possible
assertion may have occured (?) but not to the point of
a lawsuit, which is doubtless more expensive than the
money in question would warrant.
--- Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
I'm not an attorney, Thom. ( the exploits of Louis
Nizer, F.<BR>
Lee Bailey et al were interesting to me as a kid, but
the<BR>
anticipated drear of torts and fenders bent, wills
and<BR>
copyright discouraged me from law school. )<BR>
<BR>
But I do know that in order to enforce a copyright,
one has<BR>
to act in order to preserve it. Meaning that 20 years
down<BR>
the river claiming, "You did me wrong"
is useless.<BR>
<BR>
Your trademark question is a good one. I've never seen
"TM"<BR>
on any of the Bolger's stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Can't speak for them, of course, but I doubt your
upgrade<BR>
scheme would fly. The best thing from the Bolger's
point of<BR>
view might be for CSD and Ducktrap both to leave their
boats alone.<BR>
<BR>
BTW the protection for text as opposed to boat designs
is a<BR>
little longer, now up to at least 47 years, I think.
So<BR>
before anybody decides to reissue 30-Odd Boats
themselves,<BR>
better talk with your attorney!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Mark<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
thomas dalzell wrote:<BR>
> <BR>your<BR>
> I can't get into the CSD/PCB thing as regards
> thoughtful comments Mark, because I don't knowenough<BR>
> about the US law etc... In the case of myremark I<BR>
> should have made it more clear that I mentThat<BR>
> according to PCB, CSD isn't authorised byPCB&F to<BR>
> sell any of his plans. Whether there is ahigher<BR>
> authority here, I don't know.<BR>raise. If<BR>
> <BR>
> I am curious as to the copyright point you
> the coverage were only for 10 years, and ifthese<BR>
> plans were copyrighted in the first place, Thereis<BR>
> still the issue of trademark, and whose name canbe<BR>
> used to sell them.<BR>more<BR>
> <BR>
> PCB has updated the plans, and sells them for
> than CSD, and perhaps people who buy themelsewhere<BR>
> than PCB&F should consider paying Phil thedifference<BR>
> if they want his support, or to use his name whenit<BR>
> comes to resale of their boats.<BR></tt>
><BR>
<br>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"
color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><table border=0
cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font
face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl"
target=_top><img
src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300_1b.gif"
![http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300_1b.gif"](http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300_1b.gif"){kind=link}
width="300" height="250"
border="0"></a></td></tr></table></td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmail/S=1705065791:HM/A=935585/rand=385539827"></td></tr>
</table>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
<br>
<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>
</body></html>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
I'm not an attorney, Thom. ( the exploits of Louis Nizer, F.
Lee Bailey et al were interesting to me as a kid, but the
anticipated drear of torts and fenders bent, wills and
copyright discouraged me from law school. )
But I do know that in order to enforce a copyright, one has
to act in order to preserve it. Meaning that 20 years down
the river claiming, "You did me wrong" is useless.
Your trademark question is a good one. I've never seen "TM"
on any of the Bolger's stuff.
Can't speak for them, of course, but I doubt your upgrade
scheme would fly. The best thing from the Bolger's point of
view might be for CSD and Ducktrap both to leave their boats alone.
BTW the protection for text as opposed to boat designs is a
little longer, now up to at least 47 years, I think. So
before anybody decides to reissue 30-Odd Boats themselves,
better talk with your attorney!
Mark
thomas dalzell wrote:
Lee Bailey et al were interesting to me as a kid, but the
anticipated drear of torts and fenders bent, wills and
copyright discouraged me from law school. )
But I do know that in order to enforce a copyright, one has
to act in order to preserve it. Meaning that 20 years down
the river claiming, "You did me wrong" is useless.
Your trademark question is a good one. I've never seen "TM"
on any of the Bolger's stuff.
Can't speak for them, of course, but I doubt your upgrade
scheme would fly. The best thing from the Bolger's point of
view might be for CSD and Ducktrap both to leave their boats alone.
BTW the protection for text as opposed to boat designs is a
little longer, now up to at least 47 years, I think. So
before anybody decides to reissue 30-Odd Boats themselves,
better talk with your attorney!
Mark
thomas dalzell wrote:
>
> I can't get into the CSD/PCB thing as regards your
> thoughtful comments Mark, because I don't know enough
> about the US law etc... In the case of my remark I
> should have made it more clear that I ment That
> according to PCB, CSD isn't authorised by PCB&F to
> sell any of his plans. Whether there is a higher
> authority here, I don't know.
>
> I am curious as to the copyright point you raise. If
> the coverage were only for 10 years, and if these
> plans were copyrighted in the first place, There is
> still the issue of trademark, and whose name can be
> used to sell them.
>
> PCB has updated the plans, and sells them for more
> than CSD, and perhaps people who buy them elsewhere
> than PCB&F should consider paying Phil the difference
> if they want his support, or to use his name when it
> comes to resale of their boats.
>
They seem to be easing away from this kind of stuff,
they have been issueing a blizzard of revisions and
alternative arrangements, and jacking the prices on
stock plans. The marketing phase is over, time to get
a descent return from his global reputation. Sounds
fair to me. Does anyone know whether SA is behind the
business plan?
--- staehpj1 <staehpj1@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
--- In bolger@y..., martin.me.roberts@b... wrote:<BR>
<BR>
Absolutely. Some feel it is worth buying the
plans anyway. Various <BR>
reasons including the ability to consult Mr. Bolger,
the legibility <BR>
of the larger plans, and so on.<BR>
<BR>
I do not know if Bolger or Payson will answer
questions for folks who <BR>
are building from the books, but I suspect not.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I find the books to be quite sufficient,
especially for <BR>
the smaller simpler boats. For the larger more
complex ones it might <BR>
start to make more sense to buy the full size plans,
but that is your <BR>
call.<BR>
<BR>
Pete<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
<br>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"
color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><table border=0
cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font
face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=935584/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_06/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl"
target=_top><img
src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300_06banner.gif"
width="300" height="250"
border="0"></a></td></tr></table></td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmail/S=1705065791:HM/A=935584/rand=926054848"></td></tr>
</table>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
<br>
<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>
</body></html>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
they have been issueing a blizzard of revisions and
alternative arrangements, and jacking the prices on
stock plans. The marketing phase is over, time to get
a descent return from his global reputation. Sounds
fair to me. Does anyone know whether SA is behind the
business plan?
--- staehpj1 <staehpj1@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
--- In bolger@y..., martin.me.roberts@b... wrote:<BR>
> Another question I would like to know the answerto is:<BR>
> Can you build from the plans in the Harold Paysonbooks?<BR>
<BR>
Absolutely. Some feel it is worth buying the
plans anyway. Various <BR>
reasons including the ability to consult Mr. Bolger,
the legibility <BR>
of the larger plans, and so on.<BR>
<BR>
I do not know if Bolger or Payson will answer
questions for folks who <BR>
are building from the books, but I suspect not.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I find the books to be quite sufficient,
especially for <BR>
the smaller simpler boats. For the larger more
complex ones it might <BR>
start to make more sense to buy the full size plans,
but that is your <BR>
call.<BR>
<BR>
Pete<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
<br>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"
color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><table border=0
cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font
face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=935584/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_06/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl"
target=_top><img
src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300_06banner.gif"
![http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300_06banner.gif"](http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300_06banner.gif"){kind=link}
width="300" height="250"
border="0"></a></td></tr></table></td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmail/S=1705065791:HM/A=935584/rand=926054848"></td></tr>
</table>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
<br>
<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>
</body></html>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
I agree with the idea of a lighter mast. I would dump
the tabernackle, and just go with a stick made of 1/4"
ply, with a compression face.
--- staehpj1 <staehpj1@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Ed Haile did some modification and testing on his
MJ. I have been <BR>
out of touch with him for some time, but I think he
had satisfactory <BR>
results with much less major changes. If memory
serves me correctly <BR>
he felt that the key was to keep the weight aloft
low. He fitted an <BR>
aluminum mast (a piece of round aluminum tube).<BR>
<BR>
Anyway Ed is a great guy and would probably be happy
to talk about <BR>
his findings if you look him up. I don't have
his address handy <BR>
right now, but he has read and posted here in the
past.<BR>
<BR>
Ed are you listening? If so please comment.<BR>
<BR>
Pete Staehling<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
<br>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"
color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><table border=0
cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font
face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=935586/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_g2_01/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl"
target=_top><img
src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300_gotomypc_01.gif"
width="300" height="250"
border="0"></a></td></tr></table></td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmail/S=1705065791:HM/A=935586/rand=824848232"></td></tr>
</table>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
<br>
<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>
</body></html>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
the tabernackle, and just go with a stick made of 1/4"
ply, with a compression face.
--- staehpj1 <staehpj1@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Ed Haile did some modification and testing on his
MJ. I have been <BR>
out of touch with him for some time, but I think he
had satisfactory <BR>
results with much less major changes. If memory
serves me correctly <BR>
he felt that the key was to keep the weight aloft
low. He fitted an <BR>
aluminum mast (a piece of round aluminum tube).<BR>
<BR>
Anyway Ed is a great guy and would probably be happy
to talk about <BR>
his findings if you look him up. I don't have
his address handy <BR>
right now, but he has read and posted here in the
past.<BR>
<BR>
Ed are you listening? If so please comment.<BR>
<BR>
Pete Staehling<BR>
<BR>
</tt>
<br>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"
color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><table border=0
cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font
face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=935586/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_g2_01/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl"
target=_top><img
src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300_gotomypc_01.gif"
![http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300_gotomypc_01.gif"](http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300_gotomypc_01.gif"){kind=link}
width="300" height="250"
border="0"></a></td></tr></table></td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmail/S=1705065791:HM/A=935586/rand=824848232"></td></tr>
</table>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
<br>
<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>
</body></html>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
Phil's letter to me says:
"We continue to service plans bought from Common Sense
Designs, but it is now several years since we withdrew
CSD's rights to sell our plans..."
To which I would point out:
1) what does "service" mean, for instance will he sell
the $50 upgrade happily to people who bought these
plans, that's different than writing a 10 page letter
on how to build it, etc...
2) CSD does it still exist? There is the CSB thing.
Personaly I wouldn't expect him to support plans that
are bought at this point.
3)Any profesional like Phil is entitled to be payed.
If you pay $95 for a set of plans, 10 years ago, what
rights do you have if you wish to build from them
today? How much of the $95 is consultation, if you
eliminate marketing costs, the actual costs of the
paper and postage, the intelectual property, what's
left. Nothing, but let's call it $20. So how much do
you get for $20? A short letter saying "Sure you
could substitute 5/16" wire if that is all you can
get" sounds about right to me. On my first really
big boats, I payed $200 for the plans, and hung out on
the phone many times. It was generaly clear to me
that this designer did not ever want to talk to me.
On several occasions I said "Look, I know I am a
bother, but do you need more money, have I blown
through my account with too many questions". He
always said I could, for now, call for more advise.
It was clear to me that this was just his way of
ensuring clients didn't totally talk away his whole
day. If he had been a lawyer the consultation fees
would have been several times more than the total cost
of the boat.
--- Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Pippo,<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps they've finally drawn a line. I'm sorry
if you feel burnt.<BR>
<BR>
Mark<BR>
<
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
"We continue to service plans bought from Common Sense
Designs, but it is now several years since we withdrew
CSD's rights to sell our plans..."
To which I would point out:
1) what does "service" mean, for instance will he sell
the $50 upgrade happily to people who bought these
plans, that's different than writing a 10 page letter
on how to build it, etc...
2) CSD does it still exist? There is the CSB thing.
Personaly I wouldn't expect him to support plans that
are bought at this point.
3)Any profesional like Phil is entitled to be payed.
If you pay $95 for a set of plans, 10 years ago, what
rights do you have if you wish to build from them
today? How much of the $95 is consultation, if you
eliminate marketing costs, the actual costs of the
paper and postage, the intelectual property, what's
left. Nothing, but let's call it $20. So how much do
you get for $20? A short letter saying "Sure you
could substitute 5/16" wire if that is all you can
get" sounds about right to me. On my first really
big boats, I payed $200 for the plans, and hung out on
the phone many times. It was generaly clear to me
that this designer did not ever want to talk to me.
On several occasions I said "Look, I know I am a
bother, but do you need more money, have I blown
through my account with too many questions". He
always said I could, for now, call for more advise.
It was clear to me that this was just his way of
ensuring clients didn't totally talk away his whole
day. If he had been a lawyer the consultation fees
would have been several times more than the total cost
of the boat.
--- Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Pippo,<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps they've finally drawn a line. I'm sorry
if you feel burnt.<BR>
<BR>
Mark<BR>
<
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
I can't get into the CSD/PCB thing as regards your
thoughtful comments Mark, because I don't know enough
about the US law etc... In the case of my remark I
should have made it more clear that I ment That
according to PCB, CSD isn't authorised by PCB&F to
sell any of his plans. Whether there is a higher
authority here, I don't know.
I am curious as to the copyright point you raise. If
the coverage were only for 10 years, and if these
plans were copyrighted in the first place, There is
still the issue of trademark, and whose name can be
used to sell them.
PCB has updated the plans, and sells them for more
than CSD, and perhaps people who buy them elsewhere
than PCB&F should consider paying Phil the difference
if they want his support, or to use his name when it
comes to resale of their boats.
--- Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
TD,<BR>
<BR>
At the risk of restarting the whole copyright issue
again, let me <BR>
just say that the best info I've got is that exclusive
rights to boat <BR>
designs are good for only ten years.<BR>
<BR>
That puts Micro, MJ and all the other Bolger CSD boats
technically in <BR>
the public domain.<BR>
( Browse the US government pages to see this for
yourself. )<BR>
<BR>
By that, there are no legal means for the Bolgers to
prevent CSD or <BR>
Ducktrap from what they're doing, even if it's worth
it to them. <BR>
Bernie Wolfard believed he had a proprietary interest
in the CSD <BR>
boats. Jerry Estes bought the business in good faith
from him. PB&F <BR>
does disagree. What a mess.<BR>
<BR>
The issues now are if people want the plans in a way
that ignores the <BR>
feelings and interests of their creator
and whether they want to <BR>
rely on first rate prints, responsible updates, and
wholehearted <BR>
support from him.<BR>
<BR>
By, "Wholehearted support" I mean that
apparently Phil will still <BR>
converse with you about plans bought from CSD,
but that's because <BR>
he's a decent guy and they are, after all, his
boats.<BR>
But he gets nothing from it but the pleasure. Isn't
that a little much to ask?<BR>
<BR>
Mark<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thomas Dalzell wrote:<BR>
<br>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"
color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><table border=0
cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font
face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=935584/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_06/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl"
target=_top><img
src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300_06banner.gif"
width="300" height="250"
border="0"></a></td></tr></table></td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmail/S=1705065791:HM/A=935584/rand=458881853"></td></tr>
</table>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
<br>
<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>
</body></html>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
thoughtful comments Mark, because I don't know enough
about the US law etc... In the case of my remark I
should have made it more clear that I ment That
according to PCB, CSD isn't authorised by PCB&F to
sell any of his plans. Whether there is a higher
authority here, I don't know.
I am curious as to the copyright point you raise. If
the coverage were only for 10 years, and if these
plans were copyrighted in the first place, There is
still the issue of trademark, and whose name can be
used to sell them.
PCB has updated the plans, and sells them for more
than CSD, and perhaps people who buy them elsewhere
than PCB&F should consider paying Phil the difference
if they want his support, or to use his name when it
comes to resale of their boats.
--- Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
TD,<BR>
<BR>
At the risk of restarting the whole copyright issue
again, let me <BR>
just say that the best info I've got is that exclusive
rights to boat <BR>
designs are good for only ten years.<BR>
<BR>
That puts Micro, MJ and all the other Bolger CSD boats
technically in <BR>
the public domain.<BR>
( Browse the US government pages to see this for
yourself. )<BR>
<BR>
By that, there are no legal means for the Bolgers to
prevent CSD or <BR>
Ducktrap from what they're doing, even if it's worth
it to them. <BR>
Bernie Wolfard believed he had a proprietary interest
in the CSD <BR>
boats. Jerry Estes bought the business in good faith
from him. PB&F <BR>
does disagree. What a mess.<BR>
<BR>
The issues now are if people want the plans in a way
that ignores the <BR>
feelings and interests of their creator
and whether they want to <BR>
rely on first rate prints, responsible updates, and
wholehearted <BR>
support from him.<BR>
<BR>
By, "Wholehearted support" I mean that
apparently Phil will still <BR>
converse with you about plans bought from CSD,
but that's because <BR>
he's a decent guy and they are, after all, his
boats.<BR>
But he gets nothing from it but the pleasure. Isn't
that a little much to ask?<BR>
<BR>
Mark<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thomas Dalzell wrote:<BR>
><BR>they<BR>
>As to CSD, Bolger in a recent letter to me said
>are no longer authorised to sell his plans, andhave<BR>
>not been for some time. Whether one can sellparts to<BR>
>folks with plans is possibly another issue.<BR></tt>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<br>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"
color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
</tr>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
<td align=center width=470><table border=0
cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0><tr><td align=center><font
face=arial size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a
href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=935584/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_06/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl"
target=_top><img
src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ex/expert_city/300_06banner.gif"
width="300" height="250"
border="0"></a></td></tr></table></td>
</tr>
<tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmail/S=1705065791:HM/A=935584/rand=458881853"></td></tr>
</table>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<tt>
Bolger rules!!!<BR>
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses<BR>
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate<BR>
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like<BR>
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
<br>
<br>
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>
</br>
</body></html>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
My experience is that Mr. Payson will answer questions about anything you
find in the books, including some of the off-handed comments. If you go
the e-mail route, it may take a while to get a response, but he will answer
your questions. Some of the answers may be, "buy the plan," but you will
get a direct, no-nonsense answer.
At 1/21/02 08:19 AM, you wrote:
UgotaWanit: New Beginnings
http://www.ugotawanit.com
Columbia, Maryland USA
find in the books, including some of the off-handed comments. If you go
the e-mail route, it may take a while to get a response, but he will answer
your questions. Some of the answers may be, "buy the plan," but you will
get a direct, no-nonsense answer.
At 1/21/02 08:19 AM, you wrote:
>--- In bolger@y..., martin.me.roberts@b... wrote:Geren W. Mortensen, Jr.
> > Another question I would like to know the answer to is:
> > Can you build from the plans in the Harold Payson books?
>
>Absolutely. Some feel it is worth buying the plans anyway. Various
>reasons including the ability to consult Mr. Bolger, the legibility
>of the larger plans, and so on.
>
>I do not know if Bolger or Payson will answer questions for folks who
>are building from the books, but I suspect not.
>
>Personally, I find the books to be quite sufficient, especially for
>the smaller simpler boats. For the larger more complex ones it might
>start to make more sense to buy the full size plans, but that is your
>call.
>
>Pete
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
UgotaWanit: New Beginnings
http://www.ugotawanit.com
Columbia, Maryland USA
In one of the Instant Boat books, Mr. Payson states that you could build
from the plans in the books if your eyesight is good enough, however, he
recommends ordering a set from him.
At 1/21/02 07:56 AM, you wrote:
UgotaWanit: New Beginnings
http://www.ugotawanit.com
Columbia, Maryland USA
from the plans in the books if your eyesight is good enough, however, he
recommends ordering a set from him.
At 1/21/02 07:56 AM, you wrote:
>Hi,Geren W. Mortensen, Jr.
> Another question I would like to know the answer to is: Can you
>build from the plans in the Harold Payson books? After all the books are
>similar in cost to the plans?
>
>Martin Roberts
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
UgotaWanit: New Beginnings
http://www.ugotawanit.com
Columbia, Maryland USA
--- In bolger@y..., martin.me.roberts@b... wrote:
reasons including the ability to consult Mr. Bolger, the legibility
of the larger plans, and so on.
I do not know if Bolger or Payson will answer questions for folks who
are building from the books, but I suspect not.
Personally, I find the books to be quite sufficient, especially for
the smaller simpler boats. For the larger more complex ones it might
start to make more sense to buy the full size plans, but that is your
call.
Pete
> Another question I would like to know the answer to is:Absolutely. Some feel it is worth buying the plans anyway. Various
> Can you build from the plans in the Harold Payson books?
reasons including the ability to consult Mr. Bolger, the legibility
of the larger plans, and so on.
I do not know if Bolger or Payson will answer questions for folks who
are building from the books, but I suspect not.
Personally, I find the books to be quite sufficient, especially for
the smaller simpler boats. For the larger more complex ones it might
start to make more sense to buy the full size plans, but that is your
call.
Pete
Mr. Payson states in the forward that you are welcome to build from the
book, but recommends buying the plans as they are much easier to build
from. (paraphrased as my books are packed away)
Frank
At 12:56 PM 1/21/02 -0000, you wrote:
book, but recommends buying the plans as they are much easier to build
from. (paraphrased as my books are packed away)
Frank
At 12:56 PM 1/21/02 -0000, you wrote:
>Hi,
> Another question I would like to know the answer to is: Can you
>build from the plans in the Harold Payson books? After all the books are
>similar in cost to the plans?
>
Ed Haile did some modification and testing on his MJ. I have been
out of touch with him for some time, but I think he had satisfactory
results with much less major changes. If memory serves me correctly
he felt that the key was to keep the weight aloft low. He fitted an
aluminum mast (a piece of round aluminum tube).
Anyway Ed is a great guy and would probably be happy to talk about
his findings if you look him up. I don't have his address handy
right now, but he has read and posted here in the past.
Ed are you listening? If so please comment.
Pete Staehling
out of touch with him for some time, but I think he had satisfactory
results with much less major changes. If memory serves me correctly
he felt that the key was to keep the weight aloft low. He fitted an
aluminum mast (a piece of round aluminum tube).
Anyway Ed is a great guy and would probably be happy to talk about
his findings if you look him up. I don't have his address handy
right now, but he has read and posted here in the past.
Ed are you listening? If so please comment.
Pete Staehling
Hi,
Another question I would like to know the answer to is: Can you
build from the plans in the Harold Payson books? After all the books are
similar in cost to the plans?
Martin Roberts
Another question I would like to know the answer to is: Can you
build from the plans in the Harold Payson books? After all the books are
similar in cost to the plans?
Martin Roberts
Pippo,
Perhaps they've finally drawn a line. I'm sorry if you feel burnt.
Mark
pippobianco wrote:
Perhaps they've finally drawn a line. I'm sorry if you feel burnt.
Mark
pippobianco wrote:
>Mark, my experience on this issue is a bit different...
>
>Cheers, Pippo
>
>--- In bolger@y..., Mark Albanese <marka@o...> wrote:
>> Phil will still converse with you about plans bought from CSD,
>but that's because he's a decent guy and they are, after all, his
>boats.
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>ADVERTISEMENT
><http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=935586/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_g2_01/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Mark, my experience on this issue is a bit different...
Cheers, Pippo
Cheers, Pippo
--- In bolger@y..., Mark Albanese <marka@o...> wrote:
> Phil will still converse with you about plans bought from CSD,
but that's because he's a decent guy and they are, after all, his
boats.
TD,
At the risk of restarting the whole copyright issue again, let me
just say that the best info I've got is that exclusive rights to boat
designs are good for only ten years.
That puts Micro, MJ and all the other Bolger CSD boats technically in
the public domain.
( Browse the US government pages to see this for yourself. )
By that, there are no legal means for the Bolgers to prevent CSD or
Ducktrap from what they're doing, even if it's worth it to them.
Bernie Wolfard believed he had a proprietary interest in the CSD
boats. Jerry Estes bought the business in good faith from him. PB&F
does disagree. What a mess.
The issues now are if people want the plans in a way that ignores the
feelings and interests of their creator and whether they want to
rely on first rate prints, responsible updates, and wholehearted
support from him.
By, "Wholehearted support" I mean that apparently Phil will still
converse with you about plans bought from CSD, but that's because
he's a decent guy and they are, after all, his boats.
But he gets nothing from it but the pleasure. Isn't that a little much to ask?
Mark
Thomas Dalzell wrote:
At the risk of restarting the whole copyright issue again, let me
just say that the best info I've got is that exclusive rights to boat
designs are good for only ten years.
That puts Micro, MJ and all the other Bolger CSD boats technically in
the public domain.
( Browse the US government pages to see this for yourself. )
By that, there are no legal means for the Bolgers to prevent CSD or
Ducktrap from what they're doing, even if it's worth it to them.
Bernie Wolfard believed he had a proprietary interest in the CSD
boats. Jerry Estes bought the business in good faith from him. PB&F
does disagree. What a mess.
The issues now are if people want the plans in a way that ignores the
feelings and interests of their creator and whether they want to
rely on first rate prints, responsible updates, and wholehearted
support from him.
By, "Wholehearted support" I mean that apparently Phil will still
converse with you about plans bought from CSD, but that's because
he's a decent guy and they are, after all, his boats.
But he gets nothing from it but the pleasure. Isn't that a little much to ask?
Mark
Thomas Dalzell wrote:
>
>As to CSD, Bolger in a recent letter to me said they
>are no longer authorised to sell his plans, and have
>not been for some time. Whether one can sell parts to
>folks with plans is possibly another issue.
>
>
>
I think that if you look this site over, you should
find the update info:
http://www.geocities.com/seap21/marthajane.html
The question is what to do with this info. As much as
bolger didn't do the stability calculations in the
past, he still doesn't do the centre of gravity
calculations today. He is also at a disadvantage
because he doesn't have detailed information relating
to most of these capsizes. So his advice isn't very
specific. He does give a range of scenarios, from
which one can choose.
It is far from clear to me that one needs to adopt the
radical surgery suggested in his revised plan (though
I think the house would be very useful at times. MJ
started life as a response to the Black Skimmer
design. In that respect If I was traillering her, I
would consider just using the original design
carefully, with great care to keep her away from very
cold water. If I sailed her from a berth or mooring,
I would consider adding the three pieces of iron
ballast amounting to 500# specified for Black Skimmer.
Just my guesses on the subject.
As to CSD, Bolger in a recent letter to me said they
are no longer authorised to sell his plans, and have
not been for some time. Whether one can sell parts to
folks with plans is possibly another issue.
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
find the update info:
http://www.geocities.com/seap21/marthajane.html
The question is what to do with this info. As much as
bolger didn't do the stability calculations in the
past, he still doesn't do the centre of gravity
calculations today. He is also at a disadvantage
because he doesn't have detailed information relating
to most of these capsizes. So his advice isn't very
specific. He does give a range of scenarios, from
which one can choose.
It is far from clear to me that one needs to adopt the
radical surgery suggested in his revised plan (though
I think the house would be very useful at times. MJ
started life as a response to the Black Skimmer
design. In that respect If I was traillering her, I
would consider just using the original design
carefully, with great care to keep her away from very
cold water. If I sailed her from a berth or mooring,
I would consider adding the three pieces of iron
ballast amounting to 500# specified for Black Skimmer.
Just my guesses on the subject.
As to CSD, Bolger in a recent letter to me said they
are no longer authorised to sell his plans, and have
not been for some time. Whether one can sell parts to
folks with plans is possibly another issue.
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
Hi guy's,
I have'nt been around the Bolger scene for many months.
Can anyone enlighten me regards to the state of play with
Bolgers Martha Jane?
Last I heard Bolger had released a re-vamped MJ and was suggesting
adding more ballast or lead sole to MJ's bottom?
Also, are Common Sense Designs now an official Bolger plans/kit
supplier? I just visited thier website and they are offering MJ pre
cut kits.
Cheers,
Paul.
I have'nt been around the Bolger scene for many months.
Can anyone enlighten me regards to the state of play with
Bolgers Martha Jane?
Last I heard Bolger had released a re-vamped MJ and was suggesting
adding more ballast or lead sole to MJ's bottom?
Also, are Common Sense Designs now an official Bolger plans/kit
supplier? I just visited thier website and they are offering MJ pre
cut kits.
Cheers,
Paul.