Re: Your canoe : was PCB, Common Sense Boats, and Copyright Law
> Does anyone know whether Bolger (or others) hasI'm building the Swamp Yankee Solo Canoe right now. I tested her last
> done anything with the cut-fold-tape idea? With the
> success of the Carnell-Payson taped but joint, this
> form is freed from the dimensional tyranny of the
> 4'x8'.
weekend and found out the hard way that she is a very tender (tippy)
canoe. Tortured ply is pretty neat though. When I pull the sides into
place on this canoe, the plywood grains (where the keel meets stems)
tears itself apart. Once it relieves its own stress, I slapped some
epoxy on the separeted fibers to give it back strength. A link for
the plans (Bob Sparks) can be found on my web page, but be forwarned,
this is a tender canoe.http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/
Rich
I think the problem (if you can call it that) with the
Rob Roy is that the lack of stability designed in with
the very narrow v-bottom is made worse by the folded,
tortured sections at the ends, which by their nature
lift the bow and stern sections up--not a rue rocker,
but kind of a sideways deadrise, if you get what I
mean. That results in the displacement of the boat
being distributed over a short and narrow area, on a
basically unstable form. This is OK once your duff is
on the bottom, but designing a "seat" is misleading.
I agree that the folded-tortured bow and sewed
stern sections ought to work fine on a skiff--they
sell plans for a variety of planing skiffs like
that--they appear to be a very pretty boat, except
that they have the "Rob Roy" look in profile--from the
point the folding starts the keel line angles up.
The first time I ever saw such a design was in
the "National Fisherman" back in the early 80s. They
published plans for a "ditch boat", which could be
built on site with the fold and tape method in an
afternoon, used on the next day's hunting trip (they
were designed for eastern Carolina swamps), then
abandoned. I became fascinated with the idea, and for
months we had no cardboard in the house--I was
cutting, folding and taping every piece we had, trying
to get it to look right. Never built one, though.
Does anyone know whether Bolger (or others) has
done anything with the cut-fold-tape idea? With the
success of the Carnell-Payson taped but joint, this
form is freed from the dimensional tyranny of the
4'x8'.
--- thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com
Rob Roy is that the lack of stability designed in with
the very narrow v-bottom is made worse by the folded,
tortured sections at the ends, which by their nature
lift the bow and stern sections up--not a rue rocker,
but kind of a sideways deadrise, if you get what I
mean. That results in the displacement of the boat
being distributed over a short and narrow area, on a
basically unstable form. This is OK once your duff is
on the bottom, but designing a "seat" is misleading.
I agree that the folded-tortured bow and sewed
stern sections ought to work fine on a skiff--they
sell plans for a variety of planing skiffs like
that--they appear to be a very pretty boat, except
that they have the "Rob Roy" look in profile--from the
point the folding starts the keel line angles up.
The first time I ever saw such a design was in
the "National Fisherman" back in the early 80s. They
published plans for a "ditch boat", which could be
built on site with the fold and tape method in an
afternoon, used on the next day's hunting trip (they
were designed for eastern Carolina swamps), then
abandoned. I became fascinated with the idea, and for
months we had no cardboard in the house--I was
cutting, folding and taping every piece we had, trying
to get it to look right. Never built one, though.
Does anyone know whether Bolger (or others) has
done anything with the cut-fold-tape idea? With the
success of the Carnell-Payson taped but joint, this
form is freed from the dimensional tyranny of the
4'x8'.
--- thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
>______________________________________________________________________
>
> I built mine in one very hot (epoxy=instant glue)
> day
> without too high hopes (though I did make a pattern,
> so I may have been more hopeful than I like to
> admit).
> I just wanted to experiment with the idea of the
> half
> tortured, half stitched boat, of which they brought
> out some of the first. Possibly something like a
> motor boat might work with this kind of thing, but
> the
> two sections are too different to be really from the
> same boat, which isn't so hot with a displacement
> craft. I made it exactly as planned, but for a few
> changes to the seat since I wanted to kneel. Though
> I
> never fell out of mine, they really are perhaps the
> only boat designed for a wet entry...
>
> --- Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...>
> wrote:
>
> <HR>
> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> The first boat I built was a Glen-L Rob Roy, and
> it<BR>
> soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people
> at<BR>
> Glen-L couldn't be nicer to deal with. The
> plans<BR>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
> Web-hosting solutions for home and business!
>http://website.yahoo.ca
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com
They do have nice plans for a recreational shell,
which look as though they would work fine, they are
worth it for the wooden sliding seat design alone.
soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people
at<BR>
Glen-L couldn't be nicer to deal with. The plans<BR>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
which look as though they would work fine, they are
worth it for the wooden sliding seat design alone.
>>The first boat I built was a Glen-L Rob Roy, andit<BR>
soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people
at<BR>
Glen-L couldn't be nicer to deal with. The plans<BR>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
I built mine in one very hot (epoxy=instant glue) day
without too high hopes (though I did make a pattern,
so I may have been more hopeful than I like to admit).
I just wanted to experiment with the idea of the half
tortured, half stitched boat, of which they brought
out some of the first. Possibly something like a
motor boat might work with this kind of thing, but the
two sections are too different to be really from the
same boat, which isn't so hot with a displacement
craft. I made it exactly as planned, but for a few
changes to the seat since I wanted to kneel. Though I
never fell out of mine, they really are perhaps the
only boat designed for a wet entry...
--- Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
The first boat I built was a Glen-L Rob Roy, and
it<BR>
soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people
at<BR>
Glen-L couldn't be nicer to deal with. The plans<BR>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
without too high hopes (though I did make a pattern,
so I may have been more hopeful than I like to admit).
I just wanted to experiment with the idea of the half
tortured, half stitched boat, of which they brought
out some of the first. Possibly something like a
motor boat might work with this kind of thing, but the
two sections are too different to be really from the
same boat, which isn't so hot with a displacement
craft. I made it exactly as planned, but for a few
changes to the seat since I wanted to kneel. Though I
never fell out of mine, they really are perhaps the
only boat designed for a wet entry...
--- Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
The first boat I built was a Glen-L Rob Roy, and
it<BR>
soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people
at<BR>
Glen-L couldn't be nicer to deal with. The plans<BR>
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
The first boat I built was a Glen-L Rob Roy, and it
soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people at
Glen-L couldn't be nicer to deal with. The plans
actually show a wide thwart for use as a seat, which
must have been designed for one of the Flying
Walendas. Getting into a Rob Roy from a dock is not
an exercise for the non-swimmer. A pretty boat to
look at, though.
--- thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com
soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people at
Glen-L couldn't be nicer to deal with. The plans
actually show a wide thwart for use as a seat, which
must have been designed for one of the Flying
Walendas. Getting into a Rob Roy from a dock is not
an exercise for the non-swimmer. A pretty boat to
look at, though.
--- thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
> I built a very simmilar Glen-L Rob Roy canoe - Very______________________________________________________________________
> simmilar. It was only any good with a double
> paddle,
> and sitting right on the bottom, which is a practice
> I
> don't have much interest in. There is a very
> simmilar
> boat described in the book Building Sweet Dream that
> actualy does appear to have been designed for single
> paddle use
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
> Web-hosting solutions for home and business!
>http://website.yahoo.ca
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com
The first boat I built was a Glen-L Rob Roy, and it
soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people at
Glen-L couldn't be nicer to deal with. The plans
actually show a wide thwart for use as a seat, which
must have been designed for one of the Flying
Walendas. Getting into a Rob Roy from a dock is not
an exercise for the non-swimmer. A pretty boat to
look at, though.
--- thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com
soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people at
Glen-L couldn't be nicer to deal with. The plans
actually show a wide thwart for use as a seat, which
must have been designed for one of the Flying
Walendas. Getting into a Rob Roy from a dock is not
an exercise for the non-swimmer. A pretty boat to
look at, though.
--- thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
> I built a very simmilar Glen-L Rob Roy canoe - Very______________________________________________________________________
> simmilar. It was only any good with a double
> paddle,
> and sitting right on the bottom, which is a practice
> I
> don't have much interest in. There is a very
> simmilar
> boat described in the book Building Sweet Dream that
> actualy does appear to have been designed for single
> paddle use
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
> Web-hosting solutions for home and business!
>http://website.yahoo.ca
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com
As someone who is using the living room as a boat building shed, I can
sympathize totally.
Stuart Crawford
New Zealand
sympathize totally.
Stuart Crawford
New Zealand
> I'm glad you have the time and place to build. I'm currently
> reduced to model building of the designs I want to build full scale.
> A friend had offered me the use of his shed, backyard and tools, but
> sadly, he passed away suddenly last April. My wife won't let me use
> the living room of our condo (women can be SO unreasonable), so it's
> 1/8th scale only right now. BUT SOMEDAY.........
> Cheers
> Bruce
--- In bolger@y..., "rmdeming" <bcsb@h...> wrote:
I would go nuts having to do it for a living and that is
> what alot of folks here are sugestting that Bolger should do.
Sorry Rich, (and everybody else) if I left the impression PCB
should devote his time to building a website in place of boat design.
I only offered a solution to his "unauthorized" plans sales problem.
Just put out an alernative. Something like the site that sells for
Payson. He doesn't run it, somebody else does. PCB&F could do the
same thing,even if it only has the ten plans sold by CSB. Easier
sales access was all I was driving at. I was really surprised to see
so many people "defending" Bolger from people sending him money for
plans, rather than send it to a company that doesn't pay him for his
work.
I'm glad you have the time and place to build. I'm currently
reduced to model building of the designs I want to build full scale.
A friend had offered me the use of his shed, backyard and tools, but
sadly, he passed away suddenly last April. My wife won't let me use
the living room of our condo (women can be SO unreasonable), so it's
1/8th scale only right now. BUT SOMEDAY.........
Cheers
Bruce
I built a very simmilar Glen-L Rob Roy canoe - Very
simmilar. It was only any good with a double paddle,
and sitting right on the bottom, which is a practice I
don't have much interest in. There is a very simmilar
boat described in the book Building Sweet Dream that
actualy does appear to have been designed for single
paddle use
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
simmilar. It was only any good with a double paddle,
and sitting right on the bottom, which is a practice I
don't have much interest in. There is a very simmilar
boat described in the book Building Sweet Dream that
actualy does appear to have been designed for single
paddle use
______________________________________________________________________
Web-hosting solutions for home and business!http://website.yahoo.ca
--- In bolger@y..., "bgbeck55" <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
Passionate but not emotional. Well, mabe a little emotional. Mostly
you have to take what I write sorta tounge & cheek and try to smile
at it. That is how I meant my last post (this one also, but there is
some truth to this).
Mostly I find myself caught up at work with high tech gadgets and
tied to a cell phone and PC with 100 people a day looking for
solutions or something made or fixed. This week, I havn't managed to
get home before 8:30 pm. So when I build my boats, the high tech
reduces to a table saw and router level. It is relaxing. While
playing around on the internet is fun and very informative (as in
this group) I would go nuts having to do it for a living and that is
what alot of folks here are sugestting that Bolger should do. I
believe Mr. Bolger is a bit older than I and let's face it, that
generation can leave it or take it (the net). And why not, Sometimes
I long for the days of no PC's. Where I work (I am a machinist in a
fortune 500 company) we have PC's all over the place. In business
(outside of a secretary or designer) they are the biggest waste of
time that I have ever seen. Email this, email that. And most of it is
just blowing smoke. I have always said that there are two types of
computers, 1) Ones that do work and are capable of making or
providing a profit and 2) Time wasters. Like the one I am using right
now and about 95% of all the PC's used in companies, shops and yes,
let's not forget the home. That I sat here and wrote this stupid note
and that you sat there and took your time to read it is proof enough.
We both could have been pouring our skills and time into a boat.
Sorry for the rant. Really I am, but since I did sit here and write
it, I'll send it.
Now, to answer the important question: I am building a Swamp Yankee
Canoe and learning how to swim again. You can read about my latest
adventure at my web site (yeah I have one so listen to what I say,
but not as I do).http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/
Keep building and don't forget to smile. It makes you feel good. Try
it and see.
Rich
> You get emotional; don't you Rich.Hi Bruce,
> What have you been building? Have any pictures to show us? Need
> any assistance with any problems?
> Bruce
Passionate but not emotional. Well, mabe a little emotional. Mostly
you have to take what I write sorta tounge & cheek and try to smile
at it. That is how I meant my last post (this one also, but there is
some truth to this).
Mostly I find myself caught up at work with high tech gadgets and
tied to a cell phone and PC with 100 people a day looking for
solutions or something made or fixed. This week, I havn't managed to
get home before 8:30 pm. So when I build my boats, the high tech
reduces to a table saw and router level. It is relaxing. While
playing around on the internet is fun and very informative (as in
this group) I would go nuts having to do it for a living and that is
what alot of folks here are sugestting that Bolger should do. I
believe Mr. Bolger is a bit older than I and let's face it, that
generation can leave it or take it (the net). And why not, Sometimes
I long for the days of no PC's. Where I work (I am a machinist in a
fortune 500 company) we have PC's all over the place. In business
(outside of a secretary or designer) they are the biggest waste of
time that I have ever seen. Email this, email that. And most of it is
just blowing smoke. I have always said that there are two types of
computers, 1) Ones that do work and are capable of making or
providing a profit and 2) Time wasters. Like the one I am using right
now and about 95% of all the PC's used in companies, shops and yes,
let's not forget the home. That I sat here and wrote this stupid note
and that you sat there and took your time to read it is proof enough.
We both could have been pouring our skills and time into a boat.
Sorry for the rant. Really I am, but since I did sit here and write
it, I'll send it.
Now, to answer the important question: I am building a Swamp Yankee
Canoe and learning how to swim again. You can read about my latest
adventure at my web site (yeah I have one so listen to what I say,
but not as I do).http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/
Keep building and don't forget to smile. It makes you feel good. Try
it and see.
Rich
Philip Bolger didn't lend a copyright to CSD. He lent them
art, reputation, endorsement and cooperation.
They now have nothing but the art, which he would like them
to send back.
Mark
art, reputation, endorsement and cooperation.
They now have nothing but the art, which he would like them
to send back.
Mark
You get emotional; don't you Rich.
What have you been building? Have any pictures to show us? Need
any assistance with any problems?
Bruce
What have you been building? Have any pictures to show us? Need
any assistance with any problems?
Bruce
Okay, Okay already! I don't visit the site for a few weeks cause I'm
busy building a boat and you guys go off on another "Where's Phils
Website?' tangent. Get a life and leave it alone. There is no web
site and never will be. Get used to it. Enjoy the work he sets out
for us, the way he sets it out. I hate all these conformists. Have a
web site? Aghhh....I get asked that question enough to make me puke.
Three cheers for Phillip C. Bolger for being a non-conformist. Hip
Hip Hooray, Hip Hip Hooray, Hip Hip Hooray! By the way, isn't that
what we all are (in some way) by building our own wooden boats,
instead of running to the Bayliner store for a hunk of plastic like
the masses?
Would we still love this guy as much as we obviously do if he wasn't
such a recluse? Probably not. And do you know why? Cause he would
have only finished about 10 designs, cause he was busy building
websites and talking on the phone all day.
And the real bottom line (my opinion) is this...copyright or no
copyright, each and every design that came form his pencil is his.
Period. He has the moral right to say who sells his plans and who
doesn't regardless of the stinking law (one that in this case makes
no sense). If anyone can't see this, then they ought to stop using
epoxy, cause they have been stiffing it to long!
And that my friends (and I quite literaly mean freinds) is my two
cents worth. Now, can I make a suggestion to get back to the more
civilized conversations about building boats?
Keep building and for Gods sake keep smiling.
Rich
PS..
#8x3/4 CSB :-)
busy building a boat and you guys go off on another "Where's Phils
Website?' tangent. Get a life and leave it alone. There is no web
site and never will be. Get used to it. Enjoy the work he sets out
for us, the way he sets it out. I hate all these conformists. Have a
web site? Aghhh....I get asked that question enough to make me puke.
Three cheers for Phillip C. Bolger for being a non-conformist. Hip
Hip Hooray, Hip Hip Hooray, Hip Hip Hooray! By the way, isn't that
what we all are (in some way) by building our own wooden boats,
instead of running to the Bayliner store for a hunk of plastic like
the masses?
Would we still love this guy as much as we obviously do if he wasn't
such a recluse? Probably not. And do you know why? Cause he would
have only finished about 10 designs, cause he was busy building
websites and talking on the phone all day.
And the real bottom line (my opinion) is this...copyright or no
copyright, each and every design that came form his pencil is his.
Period. He has the moral right to say who sells his plans and who
doesn't regardless of the stinking law (one that in this case makes
no sense). If anyone can't see this, then they ought to stop using
epoxy, cause they have been stiffing it to long!
And that my friends (and I quite literaly mean freinds) is my two
cents worth. Now, can I make a suggestion to get back to the more
civilized conversations about building boats?
Keep building and for Gods sake keep smiling.
Rich
PS..
#8x3/4 CSB :-)
> Bottom line: Unless there's some statute about copyrights on
> boat designs that I'm not aware of, CSB is probably not doing
> anything illegal by selling the plans.
>
> Steve
Forgive me -- my last post on this topic. This one's original.
I did a little poking around the web for sites relating to copyright
law, including the web site of the U.S. copyright office. Turns out
that anything "published" without a valid copyright notice prior to
March 1, 1989, is in the public domain. (For stuff published
without a notice between 1978 and 1989 there was a five-year
window of opportunity to register a copyright, which I doubt was
done with any of PCB's plans.)
I checked several sets of plans I bought from Dynamite -- not a
copyright notice in sight. If that's true for the plans sold by CSB,
they probably aren't violating PCB's copyright, because he has
none.
It may be the case that CSB has breached a contract originally
created between PCB and Elrow Larowe or Bernie Wolfard, but
the statute of limitations on any breach of contract lawsuit has
long since expired. (In many states, it's only 2-3 years.)
Bottom line: Unless there's some statute about copyrights on
boat designs that I'm not aware of, CSB is probably not doing
anything illegal by selling the plans.
Steve
I did a little poking around the web for sites relating to copyright
law, including the web site of the U.S. copyright office. Turns out
that anything "published" without a valid copyright notice prior to
March 1, 1989, is in the public domain. (For stuff published
without a notice between 1978 and 1989 there was a five-year
window of opportunity to register a copyright, which I doubt was
done with any of PCB's plans.)
I checked several sets of plans I bought from Dynamite -- not a
copyright notice in sight. If that's true for the plans sold by CSB,
they probably aren't violating PCB's copyright, because he has
none.
It may be the case that CSB has breached a contract originally
created between PCB and Elrow Larowe or Bernie Wolfard, but
the statute of limitations on any breach of contract lawsuit has
long since expired. (In many states, it's only 2-3 years.)
Bottom line: Unless there's some statute about copyrights on
boat designs that I'm not aware of, CSB is probably not doing
anything illegal by selling the plans.
Steve