Re: Bolger Design Database
The database as it exists does not invite any of the problems cited in
the letter below. It is simply a single place where one can check for
the source and price of Bolger's plans. This, it seems to me, will,
*save* PB&F quite a few FAXs, as it will eliminate people writing just
to get price quotes.
As for SA's concerns about people asking about plans modifications
and the inappropriate use of the resulting vessels, I don't think that
our humble efforts can either eliminate or exacerbate such folly.
Personally, I have never understood why people want to do such things.
If one of Mr. Bolger's 700-odd designs *as drawn* doesn't suit your
needs, shop elsewhere. There is no shortage of designs and designers
out there.
These are just my opinions. I'm not posting it to start a thread or an
argument. I just think that the issue has become a bit fogged over,
porky galvin
the letter below. It is simply a single place where one can check for
the source and price of Bolger's plans. This, it seems to me, will,
*save* PB&F quite a few FAXs, as it will eliminate people writing just
to get price quotes.
As for SA's concerns about people asking about plans modifications
and the inappropriate use of the resulting vessels, I don't think that
our humble efforts can either eliminate or exacerbate such folly.
Personally, I have never understood why people want to do such things.
If one of Mr. Bolger's 700-odd designs *as drawn* doesn't suit your
needs, shop elsewhere. There is no shortage of designs and designers
out there.
These are just my opinions. I'm not posting it to start a thread or an
argument. I just think that the issue has become a bit fogged over,
porky galvin
--- In bolger@y..., Philip Smith <pbs@w...> wrote:
> 3) PB&F doesn't want to be pecked to death by a flock of potential
boat
> builders who want to know if the builder extends the roof top or
changes
> the hull thicknesses or puts an Allison V-12 in the boat will it
still
> work. PB&F doesn't have time to do the new design work they want to
do now
> while answering the questions that find their way in through the Fax
> machine about the designs that are in general circulation through
Phil's
> books and the MAIB and Woodenboat articles. One of the real hurdles
they
> have to overcome is "If things are this bad now, what would happen
if all
> six hundred or so surviving designs were published?" It isn't as if
they
> don't think that the questions aren't real or that they don't
deserve to be
> answered, it is that there aren't enough hours in the day to answer
the
> questions....
>....So, what does that mean about the Design Database? It doesn't
mean
"No" and
> it doesn't mean "Yes." It means that the database manager needs to
contact
> PB&F and discuss the project....
On Friday 01 February 2002 11:17, Geren W. Mortensen, Jr. wrote:
ad nauseum in the past - please see the archives.
Best regards,
Bruce Fountain
> A couple of notes here. First, there are different periods of protectionPlease, not another copyright thread! This topic has been discussed
> for different types of works - I don't know all the details, so don't ask.
ad nauseum in the past - please see the archives.
Best regards,
Bruce Fountain
A couple of notes here. First, there are different periods of protection
for different types of works - I don't know all the details, so don't ask.
I do know that one particular type of work is good for 70 years after the
death of the author. "Automatic" copyrights are only for certain types of
work, and only if created after a specific year. Further, the shorter
period copyrights, such as those on Mickey maybe, can be renewed, thus
lengthening their life. I'm sure that whatever arm of Disney owns Mickey is
right on top of such things.
Geren W. Mortensen, Jr.
Columbia, Maryland, USA
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for different types of works - I don't know all the details, so don't ask.
I do know that one particular type of work is good for 70 years after the
death of the author. "Automatic" copyrights are only for certain types of
work, and only if created after a specific year. Further, the shorter
period copyrights, such as those on Mickey maybe, can be renewed, thus
lengthening their life. I'm sure that whatever arm of Disney owns Mickey is
right on top of such things.
Geren W. Mortensen, Jr.
Columbia, Maryland, USA
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
My Personal Web Sitehttp://gerenm.tripod.com
The On30Guy On30 Web Sitehttp://on30guy.tripod.com
Geren's Photography Sitehttp://gerenphoto.tripod.com
Geren's Boating Sitehttp://gerenboat.tripod.com
UgotaWanit: A New Music Experiencehttp://www.ugotawanit.com
Four County Society of Model Engineershttp://www.fcsme.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> On an allied note, someone posted that they thought that designs had a
> copyright life of only ten years. I'm not a lawyer and certainly not a
> copyright lawyer, but why would the copyright on Mickey Mouse last for
> eighty or more years and the rights on a boat design expire in ten? In
> addition I don't believe that a copyright notice has to be posted on
> something that is obviously the work of some person. Manuscripts have an
> effective copyright as do paintings. The copyright rests with the
>
This is probably heading into the arena of off topic, so I'll keep it short.
My understanding with music copyright, is that it expires 75 years after the
death of the author.
Stuart Crawford
New Zealand
My understanding with music copyright, is that it expires 75 years after the
death of the author.
Stuart Crawford
New Zealand
> On an allied note, someone posted that they thought that designs had a
> copyright life of only ten years. I'm not a lawyer and certainly not a
> copyright lawyer, but why would the copyright on Mickey Mouse last for
> eighty or more years and the rights on a boat design expire in ten? In
> addition I don't believe that a copyright notice has to be posted on
> something that is obviously the work of some person. Manuscripts have an
> effective copyright as do paintings. The copyright rests with the author or
> artist or probably with the boat designer unless and until the rights are
> assigned to someone else. All of the sheets of designs I've gotten from
> PB&F have a stamp that says they are copyrighted with the date. If you have
> sheets of PB&F designs that don't have that stamp you might wonder if
> you've got stolen property. Just because PB&F doesn't have all the lawyers
> that are on Mickey's payroll doesn't mean that Phil and his designs don't
> have rights too.
>Every time PB&F tried to fax back to the number on Deming's fax theyRich Here....
>were connected to a very nice but not very helpful Hispanic lady who
>didn't know Deming and didn't know about design databases.
> We now resume our usual programming.
Well, this is good news, yes? I am sorry that the fax machine has not
picked up Suzannes fax, but I re-checked the number I wrote on my
fax to them and it was right (no nice hispanic lady here that I know
of). I will send another tonight with my phone number and offer any
help to PB&F that they wish, up to and including building them the
web site. Scarry part is...that I hope they don't want us to stop.
Thak you for passing along the message and I will let you know what
happens.
Keep building and for Gods sake smile!
Rich
>Every time PB&F tried to fax back to the number on Deming's fax theyRich Here....
>were connected to a very nice but not very helpful Hispanic lady who
>didn't know Deming and didn't know about design databases.
> We now resume our usual programming.
Well, this is good news, yes? I am sorry that the fax machine has not
picked up Suzannes fax, but I re-checked the number I wrote on my
fax to them and it was right (no nice hispanic lady here that I know
of). I will send another tonight with my phone number and offer any
help to PB&F that they wish, up to and including building them the
web site. Scarry part is...that I hope they don't want us to stop.
Thak you for passing along the message and I will let you know what
happens.
Keep building and for Gods sake smile!
Rich
I just spoke with Susanne Altenberger about the design data base. (She
called me about a couple of designs I'm interested in, and no, I do not
know what their phone number is.)
Susanne says that Richard Deming (could have been another first name, I
forget) had faxed PB&F about the design database. Every time PB&F tried to
fax back to the number on Deming's fax they were connected to a very nice
but not very helpful Hispanic lady who didn't know Deming and didn't know
about design databases
Susanne would like to communicate about the Design Database. Phil wrote a
return fax in longhand just to prove that you aren't dealing with a
computer program that generates responses. Mr. Deming if you are out
there, try faxing PB&F again with a fax number that works and perhaps a
voice phone number.
I'll try to summarize Susanne's comments on the design database:
1) Phil and Susanne have been trying to get Phil's designs organized and
cataloged for publication for a long time. (I've known them for six years
or so and they were working on it when I first met them and had been for a
while.)
2) PB&F want to publish the designs "right." They want enough information
in the publication so that prospective builders and actual dreamers will
know what the design is supposed to do, how many people, what kind of
range, what kind of waters, etc.
3) PB&F doesn't want to be pecked to death by a flock of potential boat
builders who want to know if the builder extends the roof top or changes
the hull thicknesses or puts an Allison V-12 in the boat will it still
work. PB&F doesn't have time to do the new design work they want to do now
while answering the questions that find their way in through the Fax
machine about the designs that are in general circulation through Phil's
books and the MAIB and Woodenboat articles. One of the real hurdles they
have to overcome is "If things are this bad now, what would happen if all
six hundred or so surviving designs were published?" It isn't as if they
don't think that the questions aren't real or that they don't deserve to be
answered, it is that there aren't enough hours in the day to answer the
questions.
How do we, the PB&F fan club and boat builders and dreamers police
ourselves? How do we know what a reasonable question is? What changes that
seem reasonable to us makes it seem as if we have asked for a completely
new boat from PB&F. When do we need to pay for a new design? Since PB&F
have a lot of interesting designs in the hopper that they want to complete,
getting them to agree to make a new design can be a non-starter.
One story Susanne told me was about a guy, we'll call The Skipper, who
wants to take either Wyoming or Idaho up to Alaska from Seattle. Neither of
these designs was created for that kind of service, they are light weight
and count on staying lightly loaded to maintain adequate strength. Cruising
for two months with four people is not going to be a light weight
proposition in terms of gear and provisions. The were designed to operate
in protected waters. Unless The Skipper and the crew adopt a backpacker's
mentality towards weight AND they have the determination to wait until the
weather is the best of benign for each passage, these aren't the designs
for the intended use.
Once PB&F writes The Skipper with this bad news, even if it is a long and
thoroughly developed letter, The Skipper will probably have seventeen
questions and what ifs and buts to discuss. PB&F just don't have the time
to answer the questions.
So, what does that mean about the Design Database? It doesn't mean "No" and
it doesn't mean "Yes." It means that the database manager needs to contact
PB&F and discuss the project.
On an allied note, someone posted that they thought that designs had a
copyright life of only ten years. I'm not a lawyer and certainly not a
copyright lawyer, but why would the copyright on Mickey Mouse last for
eighty or more years and the rights on a boat design expire in ten? In
addition I don't believe that a copyright notice has to be posted on
something that is obviously the work of some person. Manuscripts have an
effective copyright as do paintings. The copyright rests with the author or
artist or probably with the boat designer unless and until the rights are
assigned to someone else. All of the sheets of designs I've gotten from
PB&F have a stamp that says they are copyrighted with the date. If you have
sheets of PB&F designs that don't have that stamp you might wonder if
you've got stolen property. Just because PB&F doesn't have all the lawyers
that are on Mickey's payroll doesn't mean that Phil and his designs don't
have rights too.
I mentioned that there are something like six hundred designs extant.
Evidently before he met Susanne, Phil would periodically go through some of
his designs and say, "This one's no good." and destroy it. I suspect that
Phil has inked (a step that makes a design a real design in his mind) and
numbered (another important step for Phil) almost 700 designs. Six or so
years ago they were almost to 670. I suspect that Phil's done number 700 by
now.
If he hasn't made 700 yet we ought to throw a party for PB&F in Gloucester
when the ink is dry on that set of plans. As laconic as he is, we might
even get Phil to talk about some of his designs.
We now resume our usual programming.
called me about a couple of designs I'm interested in, and no, I do not
know what their phone number is.)
Susanne says that Richard Deming (could have been another first name, I
forget) had faxed PB&F about the design database. Every time PB&F tried to
fax back to the number on Deming's fax they were connected to a very nice
but not very helpful Hispanic lady who didn't know Deming and didn't know
about design databases
Susanne would like to communicate about the Design Database. Phil wrote a
return fax in longhand just to prove that you aren't dealing with a
computer program that generates responses. Mr. Deming if you are out
there, try faxing PB&F again with a fax number that works and perhaps a
voice phone number.
I'll try to summarize Susanne's comments on the design database:
1) Phil and Susanne have been trying to get Phil's designs organized and
cataloged for publication for a long time. (I've known them for six years
or so and they were working on it when I first met them and had been for a
while.)
2) PB&F want to publish the designs "right." They want enough information
in the publication so that prospective builders and actual dreamers will
know what the design is supposed to do, how many people, what kind of
range, what kind of waters, etc.
3) PB&F doesn't want to be pecked to death by a flock of potential boat
builders who want to know if the builder extends the roof top or changes
the hull thicknesses or puts an Allison V-12 in the boat will it still
work. PB&F doesn't have time to do the new design work they want to do now
while answering the questions that find their way in through the Fax
machine about the designs that are in general circulation through Phil's
books and the MAIB and Woodenboat articles. One of the real hurdles they
have to overcome is "If things are this bad now, what would happen if all
six hundred or so surviving designs were published?" It isn't as if they
don't think that the questions aren't real or that they don't deserve to be
answered, it is that there aren't enough hours in the day to answer the
questions.
How do we, the PB&F fan club and boat builders and dreamers police
ourselves? How do we know what a reasonable question is? What changes that
seem reasonable to us makes it seem as if we have asked for a completely
new boat from PB&F. When do we need to pay for a new design? Since PB&F
have a lot of interesting designs in the hopper that they want to complete,
getting them to agree to make a new design can be a non-starter.
One story Susanne told me was about a guy, we'll call The Skipper, who
wants to take either Wyoming or Idaho up to Alaska from Seattle. Neither of
these designs was created for that kind of service, they are light weight
and count on staying lightly loaded to maintain adequate strength. Cruising
for two months with four people is not going to be a light weight
proposition in terms of gear and provisions. The were designed to operate
in protected waters. Unless The Skipper and the crew adopt a backpacker's
mentality towards weight AND they have the determination to wait until the
weather is the best of benign for each passage, these aren't the designs
for the intended use.
Once PB&F writes The Skipper with this bad news, even if it is a long and
thoroughly developed letter, The Skipper will probably have seventeen
questions and what ifs and buts to discuss. PB&F just don't have the time
to answer the questions.
So, what does that mean about the Design Database? It doesn't mean "No" and
it doesn't mean "Yes." It means that the database manager needs to contact
PB&F and discuss the project.
On an allied note, someone posted that they thought that designs had a
copyright life of only ten years. I'm not a lawyer and certainly not a
copyright lawyer, but why would the copyright on Mickey Mouse last for
eighty or more years and the rights on a boat design expire in ten? In
addition I don't believe that a copyright notice has to be posted on
something that is obviously the work of some person. Manuscripts have an
effective copyright as do paintings. The copyright rests with the author or
artist or probably with the boat designer unless and until the rights are
assigned to someone else. All of the sheets of designs I've gotten from
PB&F have a stamp that says they are copyrighted with the date. If you have
sheets of PB&F designs that don't have that stamp you might wonder if
you've got stolen property. Just because PB&F doesn't have all the lawyers
that are on Mickey's payroll doesn't mean that Phil and his designs don't
have rights too.
I mentioned that there are something like six hundred designs extant.
Evidently before he met Susanne, Phil would periodically go through some of
his designs and say, "This one's no good." and destroy it. I suspect that
Phil has inked (a step that makes a design a real design in his mind) and
numbered (another important step for Phil) almost 700 designs. Six or so
years ago they were almost to 670. I suspect that Phil's done number 700 by
now.
If he hasn't made 700 yet we ought to throw a party for PB&F in Gloucester
when the ink is dry on that set of plans. As laconic as he is, we might
even get Phil to talk about some of his designs.
We now resume our usual programming.
There's a whole bunch of designs advertised in the old CSD
newsletters, but no reliable price info. Should I put those in? And
what about the various designs in PCB books?
Best, Pippo
newsletters, but no reliable price info. Should I put those in? And
what about the various designs in PCB books?
Best, Pippo
--- In bolger@y..., "kayaker37" <kayaker37@h...> wrote:
>
> I added the following from Dynamite's site. Unfortunately, he does
> not list design numbers. There's more to go, but I want to
> doublecheck the names.
>
> Canoe, Skimmer, Rubens Nymph, Singlehand Schooner, Cartopper,
Teal,
> Tinycat (Bobcat), Tortoise, Windsprint, Diablo, Dynamite Sailboard,
> Elegant Punt
>
> Paul
I added the following from Dynamite's site. Unfortunately, he does
not list design numbers. There's more to go, but I want to
doublecheck the names.
Canoe, Skimmer, Rubens Nymph, Singlehand Schooner, Cartopper, Teal,
Tinycat (Bobcat), Tortoise, Windsprint, Diablo, Dynamite Sailboard,
Elegant Punt
Paul
not list design numbers. There's more to go, but I want to
doublecheck the names.
Canoe, Skimmer, Rubens Nymph, Singlehand Schooner, Cartopper, Teal,
Tinycat (Bobcat), Tortoise, Windsprint, Diablo, Dynamite Sailboard,
Elegant Punt
Paul
> I pleaded my case for leaving the way it is and living with mis-I looked through a stack of MAIB's and added a bunch of entries to
> spelled words until I spot them and fix them. Should we put it to a
> poll?
the database. The only bad mistake that I know I made was a abortive
entry for Topaz. Please, db owner, delete the bad one, keep the good.
For the most part, I only put in entries for which I could find
complete info.
I have not tried, but there seem to be built-in functions for
downloading the data. If anyone is worried about Yahoo losing the
stuff, they can keep their own local copy.
Peter
> Dear table owner, may we please have the power to edit and deleteHi Carter,
> our own entries?
Yahoo only gives the following options for editing and deletions;
1)Group Moderator or Table owner
2) Group Subscriber
3) Anyone
Having the admin rights to a part of my companies dtatbases and
network server has taught me that when to many people have the right
to delete something, it will be deleted. In every case so far (at my
work) it has been an accident and not malicious, but the fact is that
it will happen with increased frequency in direct proportion to the
number of people that have the rights to delete or edit.
Now, if this was at my company, I would not have to alfull much fear
of letting everyone have access to make changes/deletions, but that
is because they have a fantastic backup system and the network system
monitors for abnormal deletions (we deal with the FDA here folks and
they don't play around, so in reality not everyone has those rights).
I would be notified and the system brought back from the dead if need
be. Here on Yahoo, I think that if someone were to make that same
mistake, were screwed. I don't think we can get it back. By giving
the Group Subscriber (the only other real choice) the rights to make
edits, it also allows them the right to delete the whole table. Now I
realize that I might offend some people, (I've been there before
also), but please try to understand that right now, only myself and
the group moderator can mess up and delete the table (and it is a
real possibility that I could do that (just a normal IQ guy here).
I pleaded my case for leaving the way it is and living with mis-
spelled words until I spot them and fix them. Should we put it to a
poll?
Thanks,
Rich
PS..
Bolger has not replied to my fax, so I take it he is mounting a
monumental law suit against me :-) or just dosen't care.
The design database is already fun and interesting and a good
resource. But once I add an entry, I cannot edit it or delete it.
Dear table owner, may we please have the power to edit and delete
our own entries? I don't know about others, but sometimes I hit the
Enter button before I realize that I mistyped something. I hate to
have my errors preserved forever with no chance to correct them!
Carter
resource. But once I add an entry, I cannot edit it or delete it.
Dear table owner, may we please have the power to edit and delete
our own entries? I don't know about others, but sometimes I hit the
Enter button before I realize that I mistyped something. I hate to
have my errors preserved forever with no chance to correct them!
Carter