[bolger] Re: mizzen vs vane
Bob,
Thank you very much for the information. I am perhaps the victim of
armchairitis with regard to wind vanes, but it's tough to try one out up
here in the mountains (it is hard to even find places to sail). I'll have to
look through the books and see what Bolger has drawn in the 30-35' range
with a transom-hung rudder, then figure out if I'll be able to afford it
after my kids have gone to college (Yikes!),
david
Thank you very much for the information. I am perhaps the victim of
armchairitis with regard to wind vanes, but it's tough to try one out up
here in the mountains (it is hard to even find places to sail). I'll have to
look through the books and see what Bolger has drawn in the 30-35' range
with a transom-hung rudder, then figure out if I'll be able to afford it
after my kids have gone to college (Yikes!),
david
>From: "lm2" <lm2@...>______________________________________________________
>Reply-To:bolger@...
>To: <bolger@...>
>Subject: [bolger] Re: mizzen vs vane
>Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 15:26:54 -0500
>
>The Easy route and IMHO the best is an auxillary rudder with trim tab
>system as it allow one to use off the shelf rudder fittings. Servo pendulum
>systems are pretty tempermental and in my experience do not work well on
>shallow draft boats like the Advanced Sharpies...
>
>If you are lucky enough to have a transom hung rudder a trim tab is the way
>to go.
>
>Trim tabs also allow you to use a cheap electronic auto helm type unit if
>you must sail a compass course. I have yet to find a electronic tiller type
>pilot that had the guts and bullet proofness needed for cruising.
>
>I prefer horizontal vanes as they are easy to make have "enough" power to
>steer a balanced boat and are easier to use while single handing as they
>are self setting.
>
>Like a lot of sailing related stuff vane steering has developed a
>reputation as being difficult like using a sextant, mast building or
>lofting ...but the bottom line on all that stuff is none of it is rocket
>science and if you can tie your shoes in the morning you should be able to
>take a sight, build a spar,loft your boat and use a vane. Some people just
>like to pretend as it makes them feel important.
>
>When I worked as a delivery skipper I used just about everyones vanes and
>pretty much find them all good PROVIDING the boat can be balanced and that
>the person sailing the boat knows what they are doing....you would be
>surprised how many people out here in the Caribbean do not have a clue how
>to trim a sail...
>
>I just looked at a materials bill I did for a vane I built in the Canaries
>for a 46 foot Moody...
>1 3mm piece of ply scrap......................NC
>1/2 sheet 12mm plywood ( marine)........$35.00
>1 3/4"X4"X8' piece of meranti..................$3.00
>2 meter 12mm stainless rod..................$12.00
>1 set Gudgeons and pintles...................$25.00
>1 set gudgeons (dinghy)..........................$4.00
>1 piece scrap stainless steel ( 3mmX.33m)NC
>1 meter stainless angle (25mm)..............$5.00
>1 welding rod.........................................$3.00
>1 Liter epoxy.........................................$20.00
>3 meter glass cloth................................$9.00
>3 meter glass tape.................................$3.00
>1 liter of paint.........................................$16.00
>1/2 liter of primer....................................$12.00
>misc screw,bolts,coloidal silica,carbon graphite,etc.
>The project took me nine hours and I had to farm out the welding (15
>minutes) to a local welder......Pocket change and a six pack
>
>I hope this goes some way to answering your questions.
>
>
>Bob
>Paradise Connections Yacht Charters
>St Thomas USVI
>http://www.paradiseconnections.com
>
The Easy route and IMHO the best is an auxillary
rudder with trim tab system as it allow one to use off the shelf rudder
fittings. Servo pendulum systems are pretty tempermental and in my experience do
not work well on shallow draft boats like the Advanced Sharpies...
If you are lucky enough to have a transom hung
rudder a trim tab is the way to go.
Trim tabs also allow you to use a cheap electronic
auto helm type unit if you must sail a compass course. I have yet to find a
electronic tiller type pilot that had the guts and bullet proofness needed for
cruising.
I prefer horizontal vanes as they are easy to make
have "enough" power to steer a balanced boat and are easier to use while single
handing as they are self setting.
Like a lot of sailing related stuff vane steering
has developed a reputation as being difficult like using a sextant, mast
building or lofting ...but the bottom line on all that stuff is none of it is
rocket science and if you can tie your shoes in the morning you should be able
to take a sight, build a spar,loft your boat and use a vane. Some people just
like to pretend as it makes them feel important.
When I worked as a delivery skipper I used just
about everyones vanes and pretty much find them all good PROVIDING the boat can
be balanced and that the person sailing the boat knows what they are
doing....you would be surprised how many people out here in the Caribbean do not
have a clue how to trim a sail...
I just looked at a materials bill I did for a vane
I built in the Canaries for a 46 foot Moody...
1 3mm piece of ply
scrap......................NC
1/2 sheet 12mm plywood (
marine)........$35.00
1 3/4"X4"X8' piece of
meranti..................$3.00
2 meter 12mm stainless
rod..................$12.00
1 set Gudgeons and
pintles...................$25.00
1 set gudgeons
(dinghy)..........................$4.00
1 piece scrap stainless steel (
3mmX.33m)NC
1 meter stainless angle
(25mm)..............$5.00
1 welding
rod.........................................$3.00
1 Liter
epoxy.........................................$20.00
3 meter glass
cloth................................$9.00
3 meter glass
tape.................................$3.00
1 liter of
paint.........................................$16.00
1/2 liter of
primer....................................$12.00
misc screw,bolts,coloidal silica,carbon
graphite,etc.
The project took me nine hours and I had to farm
out the welding (15 minutes) to a local welder......Pocket change and a six
pack
I hope this goes some way to answering your
questions.
Bob
Paradise Connections Yacht Charters
St Thomas USVI
----- Original Message -----From:davidTo:bolger@...Sent:Saturday, January 15, 2000 3:17 PMSubject:[bolger] Re: mizzen vs vaneBob,
I gather from your letter that you are treating your design information as propriatory, and this I quite understand. I am still curious as to what you produced for $111.00 that could steer a five ton, thirty-seven foot boat. Was it an auxiliary rudder vane, a horizontal axis vane, a rudder tab, or a servo pendulum? I suspect that a servo system would be a challange to engineer, as would a simple rudder tab for LS2's inboard rudder. I get the impression from my reading of Letcher, Street, Hiscock, and many others that much of vane design is a trial and error process. How long does it take for you to get a vane to work on a particular boat? How much does it cost the boat owner for both materials and labor to have such a job done? Finally, have you investigated the efficacy and long-term reliability of such "home-brewed" vanes versus commercially available rigs such as the Scanmar and Fleming offerings? I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I hope to run away to sea when I grow up (I'm only forty-eight years old now) and I don't particularly enjoy steering as a full-time pursuit,
Thanks!
davidlm2 wrote:
So far I have designed about twenty vanes for various boats...in fact it became kinda of a cottage industry while Sheila and I were cruising. Sorry to say my photo album of the vanes I built perished with LM2. I would be happy to advise. BobParadise Connections Yacht ChartersSt Thomas USVIhttp://www.paradiseconnections.comeGroups.com Home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications
Bob,
I gather from your letter that you are treating your design information as propriatory, and this I quite understand. I am still curious as to what you produced for $111.00 that could steer a five ton, thirty-seven foot boat. Was it an auxiliary rudder vane, a horizontal axis vane, a rudder tab, or a servo pendulum? I suspect that a servo system would be a challange to engineer, as would a simple rudder tab for LS2's inboard rudder. I get the impression from my reading of Letcher, Street, Hiscock, and many others that much of vane design is a trial and error process. How long does it take for you to get a vane to work on a particular boat? How much does it cost the boat owner for both materials and labor to have such a job done? Finally, have you investigated the efficacy and long-term reliability of such "home-brewed" vanes versus commercially available rigs such as the Scanmar and Fleming offerings? I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I hope to run away to sea when I grow up (I'm only forty-eight years old now) and I don't particularly enjoy steering as a full-time pursuit,
Thanks!
david
I gather from your letter that you are treating your design information as propriatory, and this I quite understand. I am still curious as to what you produced for $111.00 that could steer a five ton, thirty-seven foot boat. Was it an auxiliary rudder vane, a horizontal axis vane, a rudder tab, or a servo pendulum? I suspect that a servo system would be a challange to engineer, as would a simple rudder tab for LS2's inboard rudder. I get the impression from my reading of Letcher, Street, Hiscock, and many others that much of vane design is a trial and error process. How long does it take for you to get a vane to work on a particular boat? How much does it cost the boat owner for both materials and labor to have such a job done? Finally, have you investigated the efficacy and long-term reliability of such "home-brewed" vanes versus commercially available rigs such as the Scanmar and Fleming offerings? I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I hope to run away to sea when I grow up (I'm only forty-eight years old now) and I don't particularly enjoy steering as a full-time pursuit,
Thanks!
david
lm2 wrote:
So far I have designed about twenty vanes for various boats...in fact it became kinda of a cottage industry while Sheila and I were cruising. Sorry to say my photo album of the vanes I built perished with LM2. I would be happy to advise. BobParadise Connections Yacht ChartersSt Thomas USVIhttp://www.paradiseconnections.com
Vanes are certainly different than steering by setting the sails in a
certain way as steering by sail set is effective on only a few points
of sail in a typical vessel and a vane - in theory at least - is far
more capable.
I think Marin-Marie details one non-vane system in a book called "Wind
Aloft, Wind Alow".
Hasler's vane and others are covered in an AYRS publication on
self-steering which I think is still available.
Tryhttp://www.ayrs.org
Disclaimer: don't use a vane, don't plan to, just happen to know where
some info on 'em is.
certain way as steering by sail set is effective on only a few points
of sail in a typical vessel and a vane - in theory at least - is far
more capable.
I think Marin-Marie details one non-vane system in a book called "Wind
Aloft, Wind Alow".
Hasler's vane and others are covered in an AYRS publication on
self-steering which I think is still available.
Tryhttp://www.ayrs.org
Disclaimer: don't use a vane, don't plan to, just happen to know where
some info on 'em is.
Bob:
How did you design this vane? What kind of materials did you use? Have you any plans or pictures?
Thanks!
david
How did you design this vane? What kind of materials did you use? Have you any plans or pictures?
Thanks!
david
lm2 wrote:
As far as I am concerned a windvane self steering gear is just about the best investment you can make to improve the quality of life on a boat. They do not have to be expensive as the vane gear we crossed the Atlantic with cost us a grand $111. to build and a couple of afternoons labor. They are simple to use..consume no power and allow you to go below and take care of buisness when needed. During our 23 day crossing I doubt we steered by hand for more than six hours. BobParadise Connections Yacht ChartersSt Thomas USVIhttp://www.paradiseconnections.com
So far I have designed about twenty vanes for
various boats...in fact it became kinda of a cottage industry while Sheila and I
were cruising. Sorry to say my photo album of the vanes I built perished with
LM2.
I would be happy to advise.
Bob
Paradise Connections Yacht Charters
St Thomas USVI
----- Original Message -----From:davidTo:bolger@...Sent:Friday, January 14, 2000 3:46 PMSubject:[bolger] Re: mizzen vs vaneBob:
How did you design this vane? What kind of materials did you use? Have you any plans or pictures?
Thanks!
davidlm2 wrote:
As far as I am concerned a windvane self steering gear is just about the best investment you can make to improve the quality of life on a boat. They do not have to be expensive as the vane gear we crossed the Atlantic with cost us a grand $111. to build and a couple of afternoons labor. They are simple to use..consume no power and allow you to go below and take care of buisness when needed. During our 23 day crossing I doubt we steered by hand for more than six hours. BobParadise Connections Yacht ChartersSt Thomas USVIhttp://www.paradiseconnections.comeGroups.com Home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications
Mike,
As I personally have exactly zero experience with windvanes, I will refer you to John S. Letcher, who has had quite a bit. In his _Self-Steering for Sailing Craft_ (International Marine Publishing Company, 1974), when he is not actually explaining how to build and use a windvane, he spends a lot of time raging (calmly) about how complicated and unpredictably ineffective they are. His basic thesis is that for a boat to use a windvane effectively, it must be balanced, and that a boat thus balanced can be easily self steered without a vane, so why bother? Of course, the book was written before most of the manufactured vanes were available, but the sea and the wind haven't changed. If you can get a boat to steer herself with her mizzen, or a length of surgical tubing, why spend big $$$ on a vane? The book has been out of print for several years, but you can probably find one used through Amazon (yuck) or a used book dealer,
david
As I personally have exactly zero experience with windvanes, I will refer you to John S. Letcher, who has had quite a bit. In his _Self-Steering for Sailing Craft_ (International Marine Publishing Company, 1974), when he is not actually explaining how to build and use a windvane, he spends a lot of time raging (calmly) about how complicated and unpredictably ineffective they are. His basic thesis is that for a boat to use a windvane effectively, it must be balanced, and that a boat thus balanced can be easily self steered without a vane, so why bother? Of course, the book was written before most of the manufactured vanes were available, but the sea and the wind haven't changed. If you can get a boat to steer herself with her mizzen, or a length of surgical tubing, why spend big $$$ on a vane? The book has been out of print for several years, but you can probably find one used through Amazon (yuck) or a used book dealer,
david
Mike Stockstill wrote:
Greetings buoyancy fans!
On my AS-19 I have gotten used to the mizzen as a way to
steer the boat. Then I read Annie Hill's book and
they seem to be sold on the weather vane self-steering.
Does one method stand out over the other for self-steering?
Is it sensible to have both - maybe the using the mizzen
going into the wind and the vane when going ahead of the wind?
As far as I am concerned a windvane self steering
gear is just about the best investment you can make to improve the quality of
life on a boat.
They do not have to be expensive as the vane gear
we crossed the Atlantic with cost us a grand $111. to build and a couple of
afternoons labor.
They are simple to use..consume no power and allow
you to go below and take care of buisness when needed.
During our 23 day crossing I doubt we steered by
hand for more than six hours.
Bob
Paradise Connections Yacht Charters
St Thomas USVI
----- Original Message -----From:davidTo:bolger@...Sent:Friday, January 14, 2000 2:26 PMSubject:[bolger] Re: mizzen vs vaneMike,
As I personally have exactly zero experience with windvanes, I will refer you to John S. Letcher, who has had quite a bit. In his _Self-Steering for Sailing Craft_ (International Marine Publishing Company, 1974), when he is not actually explaining how to build and use a windvane, he spends a lot of time raging (calmly) about how complicated and unpredictably ineffective they are. His basic thesis is that for a boat to use a windvane effectively, it must be balanced, and that a boat thus balanced can be easily self steered without a vane, so why bother? Of course, the book was written before most of the manufactured vanes were available, but the sea and the wind haven't changed. If you can get a boat to steer herself with her mizzen, or a length of surgical tubing, why spend big $$$ on a vane? The book has been out of print for several years, but you can probably find one used through Amazon (yuck) or a used book dealer,
davidMike Stockstill wrote:
Greetings buoyancy fans!On my AS-19 I have gotten used to the mizzen as a way to
steer the boat. Then I read Annie Hill's book and
they seem to be sold on the weather vane self-steering.Does one method stand out over the other for self-steering?
Is it sensible to have both - maybe the using the mizzen
going into the wind and the vane when going ahead of the wind?eGroups.com Home:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
www.egroups.com- Simplifying group communications
Greetings buoyancy fans!
On my AS-19 I have gotten used to the mizzen as a way to
steer the boat. Then I read Annie Hill's book and
they seem to be sold on the weather vane self-steering.
Does one method stand out over the other for self-steering?
Is it sensible to have both - maybe the using the mizzen
going into the wind and the vane when going ahead of the wind?
Thanks!
Mike Stockstill
mkstocks@...
On my AS-19 I have gotten used to the mizzen as a way to
steer the boat. Then I read Annie Hill's book and
they seem to be sold on the weather vane self-steering.
Does one method stand out over the other for self-steering?
Is it sensible to have both - maybe the using the mizzen
going into the wind and the vane when going ahead of the wind?
Thanks!
Mike Stockstill
mkstocks@...