Re: [bolger] Re: Micro Keel fasteners
Gregg:
I'm with you: 3M 5200 sticks to anything and everything. Frankly I'm not too impressed with the way boat building epoxy sticks to metal.
Chuck
Hey folks -
I just took delivery of a partially completed micro hull, and the
task of the keel looms large in my future. Everyone talks about
epoxy, but 3M 5200 sticks to my tools better than anything else. Any
thoughts on the idea? Longer working time, probably a third of the
cost, and no worries about cracking if you anchor the wrong way (by
the keel). I'm planning to use my car jack to get it in, any caveats
on that method?
Also, any ideas on cheap trailers?
Greg
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I'm with you: 3M 5200 sticks to anything and everything. Frankly I'm not too impressed with the way boat building epoxy sticks to metal.
Chuck
Hey folks -
I just took delivery of a partially completed micro hull, and the
task of the keel looms large in my future. Everyone talks about
epoxy, but 3M 5200 sticks to my tools better than anything else. Any
thoughts on the idea? Longer working time, probably a third of the
cost, and no worries about cracking if you anchor the wrong way (by
the keel). I'm planning to use my car jack to get it in, any caveats
on that method?
Also, any ideas on cheap trailers?
Greg
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hey folks -
I just took delivery of a partially completed micro hull, and the
task of the keel looms large in my future. Everyone talks about
epoxy, but 3M 5200 sticks to my tools better than anything else. Any
thoughts on the idea? Longer working time, probably a third of the
cost, and no worries about cracking if you anchor the wrong way (by
the keel). I'm planning to use my car jack to get it in, any caveats
on that method?
Also, any ideas on cheap trailers?
Greg
I just took delivery of a partially completed micro hull, and the
task of the keel looms large in my future. Everyone talks about
epoxy, but 3M 5200 sticks to my tools better than anything else. Any
thoughts on the idea? Longer working time, probably a third of the
cost, and no worries about cracking if you anchor the wrong way (by
the keel). I'm planning to use my car jack to get it in, any caveats
on that method?
Also, any ideas on cheap trailers?
Greg
Right, How could I forget Peter's well built Micro. The deadwood
idea is best. I have encapsulated my Micros keel bottom with 2
layers or cloth tape set in epoxy and coated the whole mess with a
layer of 60 oz cloth. May the marine critters try to eat that mess.
david jost
idea is best. I have encapsulated my Micros keel bottom with 2
layers or cloth tape set in epoxy and coated the whole mess with a
layer of 60 oz cloth. May the marine critters try to eat that mess.
david jost
> If you use your first option,you might also want to simply gorot
> with solid deadwood fore and aft thereby doing away with the nasty
> business of attaching the plywood panels which later may begin to
> when their bottom edges become gouged by bottom contact thusexposing
> the bare edge.to
> I have the paper pattern for my keel shape(lead ballast only)
> that I would be willing to"lend" to any other MICRO builder wishing
> go a more traditional route with the MICRO keel.hold
> Keel assembly can be seen over on DUCKWORKS MAGAZINE under the
> articles section(archives)..........
> Continued success with FIREFLY!!!
> Peter Lenihan
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "dnjost" <djost@m...> wrote:
> > If I were to do this again. Trust me, the answer is no. I would
> do
> > one of two things.
> >
> > 1. cast my keel with bronze keel bolts imbedded. That would
> > the sucker in place while I could take all the time I wanted toget
> > each side to be glued and nailed in place.
> >
Older anti-freeze was alcohol based! Like wood grain alcohol, not very compatible with the body.
I'm not sure when glycerin base showed up but there was a slow change over as the early glycerin based anti-freeze would not cool well and get thick in extreme cold. I would bet they where talking about the alcohol based stuff.
Either way, it'll kill you.
Jeff
I'm not sure when glycerin base showed up but there was a slow change over as the early glycerin based anti-freeze would not cool well and get thick in extreme cold. I would bet they where talking about the alcohol based stuff.
Either way, it'll kill you.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: David Ryan
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 9:24 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Micro Keel fasteners
>Usual warning to keep the dogs (and kids) away from the liquid
>antifreeze/coolant ...
A friend of mine is doing quite a bit of reading about the Red Army
during WWII. Apparently when the Russians would overrun a German
supply depot it was imperative that an officer secure any antifreeze
caches before the men could find it and drink it. Apparently aside
from being sweet, it will give you a help of a buzz (before it kills
you.)
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The "cutting fluid" is really a coolant in this case. Use a small
stream of water to cool the lead. Keep the speed down, and the water
flow small, and you shouldn't have any problems. Use a phenmatic
drill if you have one, otherwise be careful with electricity and
water.
You could probably get away with just dipping you bit in water every
few seconds.
The water will dry up and you won't have to clean oil off the wood.
Drill the holes with the assembly clamped in place, through both the
wood and the lead. ONLY way to get them to line up.
(Course, if I was pouring a lead keel, I'd have cast the bolts into
the lead...)
stream of water to cool the lead. Keep the speed down, and the water
flow small, and you shouldn't have any problems. Use a phenmatic
drill if you have one, otherwise be careful with electricity and
water.
You could probably get away with just dipping you bit in water every
few seconds.
The water will dry up and you won't have to clean oil off the wood.
Drill the holes with the assembly clamped in place, through both the
wood and the lead. ONLY way to get them to line up.
(Course, if I was pouring a lead keel, I'd have cast the bolts into
the lead...)
--- In bolger@y..., "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
> Derek
>
> I guess my inclination would be to put the thing together, then
drill the holes. You do not have to use a flow of cutting oil: Drill
the wood first, then withdraw the bit and give it a mist of WD-40 or
a dab of your favorite cutting oil (kerosene or paint thinner would
work), then shake off any excess, and proceed to drill the lead
slowly. You may need to repeat the application of oil once or twice
for each hole. This all assumes that you are going to sheath the
keel with fiberglass. I don't think the tiny amount of oil that you
would get on the wood would be a problem.
>
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Derek Waters
> To: bolger@y...
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Micro Keel fasteners
>
>
> Chuck, David,
>
> Thanks for the responses. As you would expect, I found drilling
the lead
> 'dry' is tough; the lead heats up and grabs bits. If I drill with
cutting
> fluid, it seems I would have to do as follows - or have I missed
something?
> Is there a simpler way?
>
> Start with a complete dry fit , positioning the lead, then
clamping on the
> ply sheathing.
> Drill through the ply (dry) thus marking the lead for fastener
location.
> Remove the ply, carefully marking it for exact repositioning
afterwards.
> Finish drilling the pilot holes into the lead (this time 'wet').
> Remove the lead, having carefully marked for position.
> Carefully clean off all traces of cutting fluid.
> Butter with epoxy and reposition lead. (Epoxy clock is now
ticking :)
> Reassemble epoxied ply sheathing, checking alignment.
> Pound home fasteners.
> Repeat for other side of keel, without being able to wash lead
quite as
> liberally, since it will now be partially attached to the hull....
>
> I guess it's not that bad. How about it. Is there a simpler way?
>
> Cheers
> Derek
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Usual warning to keep the dogs (and kids) away from the liquidA friend of mine is doing quite a bit of reading about the Red Army
>antifreeze/coolant ...
during WWII. Apparently when the Russians would overrun a German
supply depot it was imperative that an officer secure any antifreeze
caches before the men could find it and drink it. Apparently aside
from being sweet, it will give you a help of a buzz (before it kills
you.)
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
Anti-freeze/coolant makes a good lube for drilling lead, and some
here
say any the plywood absorbed would be anti-fungal for the plywood.
Usual warning to keep the dogs (and kids) away from the liquid
antifreeze/coolant ...
Rick
You do not have to use a flow of cutting oil: Drill
the wood first, then withdraw the bit and give it a mist of WD-40 or
a
dab of your favorite cutting oil (kerosene or paint thinner would
work), then shake off any excess, and proceed to drill the lead
slowly.
here
say any the plywood absorbed would be anti-fungal for the plywood.
Usual warning to keep the dogs (and kids) away from the liquid
antifreeze/coolant ...
Rick
You do not have to use a flow of cutting oil: Drill
the wood first, then withdraw the bit and give it a mist of WD-40 or
a
dab of your favorite cutting oil (kerosene or paint thinner would
work), then shake off any excess, and proceed to drill the lead
slowly.
Derek
I guess my inclination would be to put the thing together, then drill the holes. You do not have to use a flow of cutting oil: Drill the wood first, then withdraw the bit and give it a mist of WD-40 or a dab of your favorite cutting oil (kerosene or paint thinner would work), then shake off any excess, and proceed to drill the lead slowly. You may need to repeat the application of oil once or twice for each hole. This all assumes that you are going to sheath the keel with fiberglass. I don't think the tiny amount of oil that you would get on the wood would be a problem.
Chuck
I guess my inclination would be to put the thing together, then drill the holes. You do not have to use a flow of cutting oil: Drill the wood first, then withdraw the bit and give it a mist of WD-40 or a dab of your favorite cutting oil (kerosene or paint thinner would work), then shake off any excess, and proceed to drill the lead slowly. You may need to repeat the application of oil once or twice for each hole. This all assumes that you are going to sheath the keel with fiberglass. I don't think the tiny amount of oil that you would get on the wood would be a problem.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: Derek Waters
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Micro Keel fasteners
Chuck, David,
Thanks for the responses. As you would expect, I found drilling the lead
'dry' is tough; the lead heats up and grabs bits. If I drill with cutting
fluid, it seems I would have to do as follows - or have I missed something?
Is there a simpler way?
Start with a complete dry fit , positioning the lead, then clamping on the
ply sheathing.
Drill through the ply (dry) thus marking the lead for fastener location.
Remove the ply, carefully marking it for exact repositioning afterwards.
Finish drilling the pilot holes into the lead (this time 'wet').
Remove the lead, having carefully marked for position.
Carefully clean off all traces of cutting fluid.
Butter with epoxy and reposition lead. (Epoxy clock is now ticking :)
Reassemble epoxied ply sheathing, checking alignment.
Pound home fasteners.
Repeat for other side of keel, without being able to wash lead quite as
liberally, since it will now be partially attached to the hull....
I guess it's not that bad. How about it. Is there a simpler way?
Cheers
Derek
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
David,
If you use your first option,you might also want to simply go
with solid deadwood fore and aft thereby doing away with the nasty
business of attaching the plywood panels which later may begin to rot
when their bottom edges become gouged by bottom contact thus exposing
the bare edge.
I have the paper pattern for my keel shape(lead ballast only)
that I would be willing to"lend" to any other MICRO builder wishing to
go a more traditional route with the MICRO keel.
Keel assembly can be seen over on DUCKWORKS MAGAZINE under the
articles section(archives)..........
Continued success with FIREFLY!!!
Peter Lenihan
If you use your first option,you might also want to simply go
with solid deadwood fore and aft thereby doing away with the nasty
business of attaching the plywood panels which later may begin to rot
when their bottom edges become gouged by bottom contact thus exposing
the bare edge.
I have the paper pattern for my keel shape(lead ballast only)
that I would be willing to"lend" to any other MICRO builder wishing to
go a more traditional route with the MICRO keel.
Keel assembly can be seen over on DUCKWORKS MAGAZINE under the
articles section(archives)..........
Continued success with FIREFLY!!!
Peter Lenihan
--- In bolger@y..., "dnjost" <djost@m...> wrote:
> If I were to do this again. Trust me, the answer is no. I would
do
> one of two things.
>
> 1. cast my keel with bronze keel bolts imbedded. That would hold
> the sucker in place while I could take all the time I wanted to get
> each side to be glued and nailed in place.
>
--- In bolger@y..., "dnjost" <djost@m...> wrote:
design reason the boat could not be built this way.
ward.
it also improoves the quality of the finished product. I believe slow
curing makes a less brittle finished product. You can have dropping
cloth and runs sometimes if it is to wetted out.
Keep us uptodate.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
> If I were to do this again. Trust me, the answer is no. I would doYep; I was wondering about that but I thought perhaps there was a
> one of two things.
>
> 1. cast my keel with bronze keel bolts imbedded. That would hold
> the sucker in place while I could take all the time I wanted to get
> each side to be glued and nailed in place.
design reason the boat could not be built this way.
>I understand but remember you have to turn her upside right after
> 2. turn the boat upside down. Let gravity hold that monster still
> while I put the sheathing on one side at a time.
ward.
> I did this the hard way, Upside down, under the boat. I nailedCertainly slowing the curing process would have reduced the rush and
> vertical posts to the keel batten and down to the cradle.
> Positioned the lead, then removed the vertical posts as necessary
> while I nailed and glued the sheathing on. It is not quite as
> straight as it should be, and my left arm still hurts from where the
> keel fell on it.
>
> A good sharp drill run at a slow speed with a little cutting oil on
> it should work. Get the slow hardener.
it also improoves the quality of the finished product. I believe slow
curing makes a less brittle finished product. You can have dropping
cloth and runs sometimes if it is to wetted out.
> David JostPros and Cons to everything. Talk to you later.
Keep us uptodate.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
If I were to do this again. Trust me, the answer is no. I would do
one of two things.
1. cast my keel with bronze keel bolts imbedded. That would hold
the sucker in place while I could take all the time I wanted to get
each side to be glued and nailed in place.
2. turn the boat upside down. Let gravity hold that monster still
while I put the sheathing on one side at a time.
I did this the hard way, Upside down, under the boat. I nailed
vertical posts to the keel batten and down to the cradle. Positioned
the lead, then removed the vertical posts as necessary while I nailed
and glued the sheathing on. It is not quite as straight as it should
be, and my left arm still hurts from where the keel fell on it.
A good sharp drill run at a slow speed with a little cutting oil on
it should work. Get the slow hardener.
David Jost
firmly supported all around and not eventually
one of two things.
1. cast my keel with bronze keel bolts imbedded. That would hold
the sucker in place while I could take all the time I wanted to get
each side to be glued and nailed in place.
2. turn the boat upside down. Let gravity hold that monster still
while I put the sheathing on one side at a time.
I did this the hard way, Upside down, under the boat. I nailed
vertical posts to the keel batten and down to the cradle. Positioned
the lead, then removed the vertical posts as necessary while I nailed
and glued the sheathing on. It is not quite as straight as it should
be, and my left arm still hurts from where the keel fell on it.
A good sharp drill run at a slow speed with a little cutting oil on
it should work. Get the slow hardener.
David Jost
firmly supported all around and not eventually
> work loose. I suspect lead would act similar to some soft woods but
> dont forget it will not shrink and expand with moisture so the nail
> must be snug in its hole.
>
> Andy Moore
> Nova Scotia
> Canada
You might consider also marking the drill bit with tape so you don't
drill past the max depth of the nail. If the nail only has a fraction
of a inch to go you should be able to drive it in. The plus of this
is the nail will be firmly supported all around and not eventually
work loose. I suspect lead would act similar to some soft woods but
dont forget it will not shrink and expand with moisture so the nail
must be snug in its hole.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
drill past the max depth of the nail. If the nail only has a fraction
of a inch to go you should be able to drive it in. The plus of this
is the nail will be firmly supported all around and not eventually
work loose. I suspect lead would act similar to some soft woods but
dont forget it will not shrink and expand with moisture so the nail
must be snug in its hole.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
Chuck, David,
Thanks for the responses. As you would expect, I found drilling the lead
'dry' is tough; the lead heats up and grabs bits. If I drill with cutting
fluid, it seems I would have to do as follows - or have I missed something?
Is there a simpler way?
Start with a complete dry fit , positioning the lead, then clamping on the
ply sheathing.
Drill through the ply (dry) thus marking the lead for fastener location.
Remove the ply, carefully marking it for exact repositioning afterwards.
Finish drilling the pilot holes into the lead (this time 'wet').
Remove the lead, having carefully marked for position.
Carefully clean off all traces of cutting fluid.
Butter with epoxy and reposition lead. (Epoxy clock is now ticking :)
Reassemble epoxied ply sheathing, checking alignment.
Pound home fasteners.
Repeat for other side of keel, without being able to wash lead quite as
liberally, since it will now be partially attached to the hull....
I guess it's not that bad. How about it. Is there a simpler way?
Cheers
Derek
Thanks for the responses. As you would expect, I found drilling the lead
'dry' is tough; the lead heats up and grabs bits. If I drill with cutting
fluid, it seems I would have to do as follows - or have I missed something?
Is there a simpler way?
Start with a complete dry fit , positioning the lead, then clamping on the
ply sheathing.
Drill through the ply (dry) thus marking the lead for fastener location.
Remove the ply, carefully marking it for exact repositioning afterwards.
Finish drilling the pilot holes into the lead (this time 'wet').
Remove the lead, having carefully marked for position.
Carefully clean off all traces of cutting fluid.
Butter with epoxy and reposition lead. (Epoxy clock is now ticking :)
Reassemble epoxied ply sheathing, checking alignment.
Pound home fasteners.
Repeat for other side of keel, without being able to wash lead quite as
liberally, since it will now be partially attached to the hull....
I guess it's not that bad. How about it. Is there a simpler way?
Cheers
Derek
Derek:
Have you tried drilling pilot holes for the nails? I know it sounds counterintuitive, but I have done it before. Lead is hard to drill - try drilling slowly, and using some kind of cutting fluid like WD-40. I would try drilling about .020 smaller than the nail.
Chuck
Have you tried drilling pilot holes for the nails? I know it sounds counterintuitive, but I have done it before. Lead is hard to drill - try drilling slowly, and using some kind of cutting fluid like WD-40. I would try drilling about .020 smaller than the nail.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: Derek Waters
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 4:31 PM
Subject: [bolger] Micro Keel fasteners
Hi Group
Micro's plan shows a lot of fasteners through the ply sheathing into the
keel lead. I'd been planning on using bronze ring-nails and screws, but
after a little experimentation I'm leaning towards stainless.
The bronze screws need a tapered pilot hole, or several different diameter
holes, where I can get stainless with parallel shanks. Driving bendy bronze
nails into lead is proving to be an unhappy experience.
My main concern about SS is corrosion - bronze is a lot closer in the
table....
Any suggestions? experiences? hints and tips?
Cheers
Derek
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I got a small drill, and using a slow speed on the drill made pilot
holes for the ring nails. The process went relatively smoothly after
I realized the bits were sticking due to the speed melting the lead.
This was relatively easy to do.
I don't think that stainless is a great underwater metal. In order
for stainless to remain so, it needs to be exposed to the air. I had
a keel/centerboard boat that had problems with stainless screws
disappearing from the pad eyes that were underwater. I suspect that
this kind of corrosion was the culprit. Not all stainless is the
same equal. Be careful.
David Jost
holes for the ring nails. The process went relatively smoothly after
I realized the bits were sticking due to the speed melting the lead.
This was relatively easy to do.
I don't think that stainless is a great underwater metal. In order
for stainless to remain so, it needs to be exposed to the air. I had
a keel/centerboard boat that had problems with stainless screws
disappearing from the pad eyes that were underwater. I suspect that
this kind of corrosion was the culprit. Not all stainless is the
same equal. Be careful.
David Jost
>the
> My main concern about SS is corrosion - bronze is a lot closer in
> table....
>
> Any suggestions? experiences? hints and tips?
>
> Cheers
> Derek
Hi Group
Micro's plan shows a lot of fasteners through the ply sheathing into the
keel lead. I'd been planning on using bronze ring-nails and screws, but
after a little experimentation I'm leaning towards stainless.
The bronze screws need a tapered pilot hole, or several different diameter
holes, where I can get stainless with parallel shanks. Driving bendy bronze
nails into lead is proving to be an unhappy experience.
My main concern about SS is corrosion - bronze is a lot closer in the
table....
Any suggestions? experiences? hints and tips?
Cheers
Derek
Micro's plan shows a lot of fasteners through the ply sheathing into the
keel lead. I'd been planning on using bronze ring-nails and screws, but
after a little experimentation I'm leaning towards stainless.
The bronze screws need a tapered pilot hole, or several different diameter
holes, where I can get stainless with parallel shanks. Driving bendy bronze
nails into lead is proving to be an unhappy experience.
My main concern about SS is corrosion - bronze is a lot closer in the
table....
Any suggestions? experiences? hints and tips?
Cheers
Derek