[bolger] Re: Micro sail area and rig
In a message dated 01/19/2000 2:35:16 AM Central Standard Time,
giuseppe.bianco@...writes:
<< You're not from Madison WI, aren't you ;-) ?
mucn nicer place to be......(no ice on my ears or nose)
Larry
Palm Bay, Florida
http://hometown.aol.com/henryclann/Boats/amatureboats.index.htm
Remember; the Titanic was built by the professionals, but Noah's Ark by
amatuers!
giuseppe.bianco@...writes:
<< You're not from Madison WI, aren't you ;-) ?
>>St. Vincent, West Indies, Then Indianapolis, Indiana, Now Palm Bay Florida; a
mucn nicer place to be......(no ice on my ears or nose)
Larry
Palm Bay, Florida
http://hometown.aol.com/henryclann/Boats/amatureboats.index.htm
Remember; the Titanic was built by the professionals, but Noah's Ark by
amatuers!
henryclan-@...wrote:
> << But I'm sure that I owe most of my relativeYou're not from Madison WI, aren't you ;-) ?
> proficiency in English to a girl coming from Madison, WI... Oh,
> memories... >>
>
> Yesssssssss??????????? um...hum......??????
> Remember; the Titanic was built by the professionals, but Noah's Arkby
> amatuers!P.S. ^^^^^ that should be "amateurs", shouldn't it? ;-)
In a message dated 01/18/2000 4:46:48 PM Central Standard Time,
pippobianco@...writes:
<< But I'm sure that I owe most of my relative
proficiency in English to a girl coming from Madison, WI... Oh,
memories... >>
Yesssssssss??????????? um...hum......??????
Palm Bay, Florida
http://hometown.aol.com/henryclann/Boats/amatureboats.index.htm
Remember; the Titanic was built by the professionals, but Noah's Ark by
amatuers!
pippobianco@...writes:
<< But I'm sure that I owe most of my relative
proficiency in English to a girl coming from Madison, WI... Oh,
memories... >>
Yesssssssss??????????? um...hum......??????
Palm Bay, Florida
http://hometown.aol.com/henryclann/Boats/amatureboats.index.htm
Remember; the Titanic was built by the professionals, but Noah's Ark by
amatuers!
Thanks for the detailed info, Chuck. Our local water in the BC interior is
very much the '"land of light airs"', to the extent that I was pondering the
utility of going for the Navigator rig. Anyone out there sailed a Navigator
rigged Micro? Better yet, a 'comparison test'?
Derek Waters
very much the '"land of light airs"', to the extent that I was pondering the
utility of going for the Navigator rig. Anyone out there sailed a Navigator
rigged Micro? Better yet, a 'comparison test'?
Derek Waters
That's why I love Chuck!
By the way, Chuck, with your permission I'd like to post this message
into my Micro webpage...
To respond to your other points:
him the right indications. I'm pretty sure he never made any sails for a
Bolger boat, and I'd rather be able to tell him "I want so much camber
there", etc.
About building, my kids and wife got the flou. Hope they'll recover by
Saturday!
the US in the last 15 years, attending at conferences, participating to
lengthy meetings, business lunches, social events, private dinners;
wrote many scientific papers; phone calls from and to the USA by the
hundreds: I exercise a lot! But I'm sure that I owe most of my relative
proficiency in English to a girl coming from Madison, WI... Oh,
memories...
Best, Pippo
By the way, Chuck, with your permission I'd like to post this message
into my Micro webpage...
To respond to your other points:
> Stop the trepidation and second guessing and keep building, Pippo!You know, Chuck, I'm about to go to the sailmaker and I'd like to give
him the right indications. I'm pretty sure he never made any sails for a
Bolger boat, and I'd rather be able to tell him "I want so much camber
there", etc.
About building, my kids and wife got the flou. Hope they'll recover by
Saturday!
> I say that with all love and kisses, and with none of my usual rancor.I know, I know...
> By the way, have you all noticed how good Pippo is getting at writing theWow, thanks! I spent many (50?) whole weeks (one at a time usually) in
> English idiom? Probably better by half than most of those writing on the
> net!
the US in the last 15 years, attending at conferences, participating to
lengthy meetings, business lunches, social events, private dinners;
wrote many scientific papers; phone calls from and to the USA by the
hundreds: I exercise a lot! But I'm sure that I owe most of my relative
proficiency in English to a girl coming from Madison, WI... Oh,
memories...
Best, Pippo
All I can do is relate my personal experience as to the adequacy of the
Micro rig.
Around here on days that are decent enough to be on the water, we also
become the "land of light airs", which means that 0-6 knots is pretty
normal. In that kind of breeze, the Micro is definitely logy, but the same
can be said of just about any sail boat unless you're running a gossamer
drifter and light sheets. When the wind increases to the 6-12 range the
Micro sails right along approaching hull speed. The boat will sail itself
with no hand on the tiller for miles on any point above a beam reach. When
you're running in 12 knots all is well unless you get stronger puffs, then
the boat heels sharply (but holds course and doesn't want to round up) and
all in all the feeling is of stability and comfort. Because of the higher
Sail Area/Displacement of the basic sail plan (around 18), you'll want to
think about reefing the main at about 15 or 16, then you're good up to about
25 or 30. After that, drop the mizzen and after that the whole rig and
motor.
I studied the way the Micro sails very carefully, and have concluded that
while the basic sail area is about 20% higher (typical for rig bound
designs) than the average cruising boat, the compensating factor is that the
boat itself is heavier on the waterline than the average, having a D/L of
over 400, and the flat bottom and square chines also contribute with great
form stability. In other words, it's a terrific balancing act and due to
the skill of the designer (given that the builder doesn't radically and
ignorantly change anything).
We'd all like to have a boat that is all things to all conditions, which
means tacking through 60 degrees with hull speed in four knots of wind, but
no properly designed sail plan can achieve that without adding some square
footage (hull speed, not 60 degrees). For those Micro sailors who really do
want sharp light air performance, I'd suggest that they rig a big drifter
from used light weight spinnaker cloth. It'd be easy and economical to do
and should give the OOMPH needed AND be easy to handle if done right.
Certainly a drifter wouldn't have much influence on performance hard on the
wind, but then the Micro isn't famous for being particularly weatherly.
Having said that though, I was never disappointed and in average conditions
was usually able to almost point as high as the other sailboats you see out
there. I remember once encountering a Pacific Seacraft 25 footer designed
by Crealock. I couldn't keep up with the boat in speed due to the
difference in waterline length, but pointed about as high. I also had the
same experience with a medium sized Catalina--like maybe 22' to 25' LOA.
So, I guess my message here is:
Stop the trepidation and second guessing and keep building, Pippo!
I say that with all love and kisses, and with none of my usual rancor.
By the way, have you all noticed how good Pippo is getting at writing the
English idiom? Probably better by half than most of those writing on the
net!
Cheers!
Chuck
***********************************
CHUCK MERRELL
MERRELL WATERCRAFT
P. O. Box 80264
Seattle, WA 98108-0264
(206) 764-1298
Email:chuck@...
Web Site:http://www.boatdesign.com
**********************************
Micro rig.
Around here on days that are decent enough to be on the water, we also
become the "land of light airs", which means that 0-6 knots is pretty
normal. In that kind of breeze, the Micro is definitely logy, but the same
can be said of just about any sail boat unless you're running a gossamer
drifter and light sheets. When the wind increases to the 6-12 range the
Micro sails right along approaching hull speed. The boat will sail itself
with no hand on the tiller for miles on any point above a beam reach. When
you're running in 12 knots all is well unless you get stronger puffs, then
the boat heels sharply (but holds course and doesn't want to round up) and
all in all the feeling is of stability and comfort. Because of the higher
Sail Area/Displacement of the basic sail plan (around 18), you'll want to
think about reefing the main at about 15 or 16, then you're good up to about
25 or 30. After that, drop the mizzen and after that the whole rig and
motor.
I studied the way the Micro sails very carefully, and have concluded that
while the basic sail area is about 20% higher (typical for rig bound
designs) than the average cruising boat, the compensating factor is that the
boat itself is heavier on the waterline than the average, having a D/L of
over 400, and the flat bottom and square chines also contribute with great
form stability. In other words, it's a terrific balancing act and due to
the skill of the designer (given that the builder doesn't radically and
ignorantly change anything).
We'd all like to have a boat that is all things to all conditions, which
means tacking through 60 degrees with hull speed in four knots of wind, but
no properly designed sail plan can achieve that without adding some square
footage (hull speed, not 60 degrees). For those Micro sailors who really do
want sharp light air performance, I'd suggest that they rig a big drifter
from used light weight spinnaker cloth. It'd be easy and economical to do
and should give the OOMPH needed AND be easy to handle if done right.
Certainly a drifter wouldn't have much influence on performance hard on the
wind, but then the Micro isn't famous for being particularly weatherly.
Having said that though, I was never disappointed and in average conditions
was usually able to almost point as high as the other sailboats you see out
there. I remember once encountering a Pacific Seacraft 25 footer designed
by Crealock. I couldn't keep up with the boat in speed due to the
difference in waterline length, but pointed about as high. I also had the
same experience with a medium sized Catalina--like maybe 22' to 25' LOA.
So, I guess my message here is:
Stop the trepidation and second guessing and keep building, Pippo!
I say that with all love and kisses, and with none of my usual rancor.
By the way, have you all noticed how good Pippo is getting at writing the
English idiom? Probably better by half than most of those writing on the
net!
Cheers!
Chuck
***********************************
CHUCK MERRELL
MERRELL WATERCRAFT
P. O. Box 80264
Seattle, WA 98108-0264
(206) 764-1298
Email:chuck@...
Web Site:http://www.boatdesign.com
**********************************
----- Original Message -----
From: "Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco" <giuseppe.bianco@...>
To: "BolgerList" <cnoto@...>; <bolger@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 3:55 AM
Subject: Micro sail area and rig
> Hi all - I've been reading here and there complains about the Micro sail
> area as being considered too small with respect to its displacement.
> Now, looking at the numbers, it doesn't seem the case to me. For
> example, Micro's Sail Area to Displacement Ratio is about 18: it's much
> larger than the Flicka's (12), or even than Jacques Mertens' Vagabond+
> (17), George Buehler's Pogo's, and many others. Now, where is the
> problem? Can't it be due to poorly shaped sails in some boats? By the
> way, what are the general indications to make a proper Micro main? And
> what about the mizzen: should it be flat or cambered (PCB's indications
> would be great here)? Best, Pippo
>
>
>
On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco wrote:
less drive, per sf, than other sails (main or headsail). It's a sail for
balance, for steering, for anchoring, for hoisting the main, for heaving
to. In fact, it's a great sail . . . but it doesn't drive the boat
forward as well as the same square footage, on a jib, genoa, or mainsail.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
> Hi all - I've been reading here and there complains about the Micro sailSome nice homework. However, one must remember that a mizzen sail offers
> area as being considered too small with respect to its displacement.
less drive, per sf, than other sails (main or headsail). It's a sail for
balance, for steering, for anchoring, for hoisting the main, for heaving
to. In fact, it's a great sail . . . but it doesn't drive the boat
forward as well as the same square footage, on a jib, genoa, or mainsail.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
Hi all - I've been reading here and there complains about the Micro sail
area as being considered too small with respect to its displacement.
Now, looking at the numbers, it doesn't seem the case to me. For
example, Micro's Sail Area to Displacement Ratio is about 18: it's much
larger than the Flicka's (12), or even than Jacques Mertens' Vagabond+
(17), George Buehler's Pogo's, and many others. Now, where is the
problem? Can't it be due to poorly shaped sails in some boats? By the
way, what are the general indications to make a proper Micro main? And
what about the mizzen: should it be flat or cambered (PCB's indications
would be great here)? Best, Pippo
area as being considered too small with respect to its displacement.
Now, looking at the numbers, it doesn't seem the case to me. For
example, Micro's Sail Area to Displacement Ratio is about 18: it's much
larger than the Flicka's (12), or even than Jacques Mertens' Vagabond+
(17), George Buehler's Pogo's, and many others. Now, where is the
problem? Can't it be due to poorly shaped sails in some boats? By the
way, what are the general indications to make a proper Micro main? And
what about the mizzen: should it be flat or cambered (PCB's indications
would be great here)? Best, Pippo