Re: death to sloops!
Quebec driving rules are identical to Mecixo's, and there's only one
rule. "Don't hit anything." , the system works because everyone is
operating on the same rule. ie, if you can edge your nose in front of
someone, he'll brake, because otherwise he'd be the one breaking the
rule.
Imagine a sailing regatta operating like that.
Bruce Hector
rule. "Don't hit anything." , the system works because everyone is
operating on the same rule. ie, if you can edge your nose in front of
someone, he'll brake, because otherwise he'd be the one breaking the
rule.
Imagine a sailing regatta operating like that.
Bruce Hector
--- In bolger@y..., "lewisboats" <numbaoneman@b...> wrote:
Is that"learned to drive" or"learned to survive?" Very few up
here actually even know how to drive ;-) . I suppose that is why we
pay an obligatory insurance fee on the plates,another on our permit
and mandatory private coverage for the whole car. The weirdness
begins when you get into an accident and discover that here there is
a "no-fault" status throughout the province. Not exactly the kind of
thing to encourage good driving since : your're insured up the
whazoo,no body is ever"at fault" when there is an accident and no
body gives a hoot anyway!
Now there has been talk of trying to get something similar for
boats......as if that will somehow reduce accidents on the water,ha!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, not meaning to make ya homesick,from the shores of the
St.Lawrence...........
> You guys are making me homesick. I learned to drive in Montreal,and
> these Idiots down here get perturbed when I slide in front of themSteve,
> with a whole _6 inches_ to spare, at only 65, sheesh!
>
> Steve, in Iowa, wishing to visit "Home" again.
Is that"learned to drive" or"learned to survive?" Very few up
here actually even know how to drive ;-) . I suppose that is why we
pay an obligatory insurance fee on the plates,another on our permit
and mandatory private coverage for the whole car. The weirdness
begins when you get into an accident and discover that here there is
a "no-fault" status throughout the province. Not exactly the kind of
thing to encourage good driving since : your're insured up the
whazoo,no body is ever"at fault" when there is an accident and no
body gives a hoot anyway!
Now there has been talk of trying to get something similar for
boats......as if that will somehow reduce accidents on the water,ha!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, not meaning to make ya homesick,from the shores of the
St.Lawrence...........
You guys are making me homesick. I learned to drive in Montreal, and
these Idiots down here get perturbed when I slide in front of them
with a whole _6 inches_ to spare, at only 65, sheesh!
Steve, in Iowa, wishing to visit "Home" again.
--- In bolger@y..., "ellengaestboatbuildingcom" <ellengaest@b...>
wrote:
these Idiots down here get perturbed when I slide in front of them
with a whole _6 inches_ to spare, at only 65, sheesh!
Steve, in Iowa, wishing to visit "Home" again.
--- In bolger@y..., "ellengaestboatbuildingcom" <ellengaest@b...>
wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "rlspell2000" <richard@s...> wrote:maintained
> > I'm toying with putting up a page to rant about sloops, standing
> > rigging, high aspect mains, big headsails, and deep keels.
> >
> > Anyone want to contribute thier personal observations/rants?
>
>
>
> Richard,
> Can't really say I have anything against sloops or any other
> rig.For that matter,I can't really say I like sailboats over
> powerboats.I love them all!
> But,I can say how much I despise a poorly handled and
> boat! Nothing enrages me more then to see a boat handled withcomplete
> disregard for the law or safety of others.The most basic of humanwater.My
> courtesy even gets passed over by some of the maniacs out on the
> water.
> Where I do my boating on the St.Lawrence right near
> Montréal,there are 9 marinas/clubs all on the same stretch of
> club has close to 500 boats alone.You can imagine what evenings andown
> weekends are like! Add to this shallow rocky areas with narrow well
> defined channels and you have yourself a race track. Thankfully,I
> a boat that allows me to sail outside most channels and since I'veenough
> been on the same waters for the past 27 years I know them well
> to escape the fools.lovely
> However,I'll never forget the day I was slowly sailing up one
> channel( against a current) when I spied a 40' canary yellow
> Cigarette speed demon coming up from behind.That's one of those
> creations that can travel over 60mph on the water leaping free fromthat
> the surface for distances greater then my boat is long! Knowing
> he would be up my ass in gig time,I prudently began to take stepsto
> ease out of the channel.But before I could even begin to releasethe
> mainsheet this monster machine had all but dropped into the water aperhaps
> mere 2 boat lenghts astern of me.Thinking that something had
> gone wrong,I held off changing course to see what was up.Lookinglike
> some futuristic killing machine and every bit as menacing,it nearlyeyes
> vibrated my innards loose,as it slowly rumbled up and by my boat
> barely disturbing the water.Keeping a wary eye on the beast,lest it
> decide to make a snack out of me,I snuck a quick glance toward the
> slave at the helm.Without so much as a"How d'ya do?"he kept his
> fixed forward directing the beast beyond me.Puzzled,yet feelingrelief
> at the same time,I casually glanced astern just in case somethingelse
> was coming up river when suddenly,the air was ripped by a violentbeast,I
> explosion of engine sounds! Whipping my head around toward the
> quickly saw it just about leap from the water and race away up theengines
> channel!
> It took a fair number of minutes before the thunder of his
> had faded away before it dawned on me that I had just witnessed aof
> smart display of one of the" rules of the road" when over-taking
> another vessel. I was almost giddy from the experience and from one
> the least likely stereo-types to boot! Unfortunately my state ofmind
> was quickly returned to normal when some little bastard in arunabout
> wanted to see just how fast and close he could get to me just tothat
> demonstrate to his girl that his boat can go faster then a
> sailboat.Probably the same type that hasn't yet figured out what
> little lever is for on the left side of his cars steeringwheel......
> Anyway,reckless boaters drive me nuts and inspire all sorts ofheart
> evil thoughts designed to accelerate their arrival at the pearly
> gates(if that is indeed where they are headed,the bums!)
> O.K.,so there is my rant for ya.Happy to contribute!!!
>
> Sincerely,
> Peter Lenihan,counting backward from 100,in French,to bring my
> rate back down enough to enjoy the rest of the day/evening,alongthe
> shores of the S.Lawrence............
Sue,
As a large (read that as "fat") man, I needed to cut out the deck
to squeeze my self into the boat. I read the information on
installing the bulkhead, but I had overdone it on the deck cut out
and could not get it to work. The mast partner also leaked like
crazy. Could never really get it sealed up good! I built hull #265
and raced it for many years in its many different configurations. It
went best with stern sheeting, well made blades, and a proper diet!
I always wondered if it might not have been a better boat with a
leeboard, and a rudder with an end plate like on many of Bolger's
boats. Maybe it is time to get out the fiberglass window screen and
bondo again for an experiment. Honestly, the first hull cost me no
more than $75 to build. Have you raced recently?
David Jost
as it's awfully convenient to have that extra
As a large (read that as "fat") man, I needed to cut out the deck
to squeeze my self into the boat. I read the information on
installing the bulkhead, but I had overdone it on the deck cut out
and could not get it to work. The mast partner also leaked like
crazy. Could never really get it sealed up good! I built hull #265
and raced it for many years in its many different configurations. It
went best with stern sheeting, well made blades, and a proper diet!
I always wondered if it might not have been a better boat with a
leeboard, and a rudder with an end plate like on many of Bolger's
boats. Maybe it is time to get out the fiberglass window screen and
bondo again for an experiment. Honestly, the first hull cost me no
more than $75 to build. Have you raced recently?
David Jost
as it's awfully convenient to have that extra
> space under the fantail to tuck your legs.
>
> -- Sue --
> (Frosty #819 and #821)
>
> --
> Susan Davis <futabachan@y...>
Thanks to all who helped me find Yellow Leaf
info--owlandmole is a great site. I managed to find a
copy of Bolger's Small Boats for six bucks, and when
it comes I'll be able to read the chapter for myself.
Now if I can just find a reasonably-price,Thirty-Odd
Boats, I'd have it made. Sam>
Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
info--owlandmole is a great site. I managed to find a
copy of Bolger's Small Boats for six bucks, and when
it comes I'll be able to read the chapter for myself.
Now if I can just find a reasonably-price,Thirty-Odd
Boats, I'd have it made. Sam>
>__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
> Oh, you are a **GOOD** sailor.*blush* You're very kind to say so. Could I get you to go back
in time to when I was a prep school sophomore, and talk the
coach out of cutting me from the sailing team? :-)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
Wow... It took almost 24 hours for someone to respond to my first
posting to this thread, now look. First of, I think cat rigs work
great in small boats were the crew has a major affect on the boat and
part of the game is a major effort in keeping the boat flat. My
concern is in boats 19'+ were the crew can help with stability but
does not have as much affect over all. Yes I agree hull shape is
playing a fairly large roll here, narrow boats almost always perform
better once the stability issue is overcome. What a sloop would deal
with readly a cat boat would consider a knock down and a knock down in
a cat boat is always worse than a sloop (helm wise). The funny thing
about narrow boats is they don't have a enough hull forward to support
a unstayed mast so the mast gets moved further aft. Question: what
part of the solution is narrower hull and what part is mast further
aft. Answer: who cares, take the solution perhaps put a jib in front
of it too further improve upwind slot and down wind balance (wing and
wing). Assuming you are like me and don't like the behaviour of
larger cats.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
posting to this thread, now look. First of, I think cat rigs work
great in small boats were the crew has a major affect on the boat and
part of the game is a major effort in keeping the boat flat. My
concern is in boats 19'+ were the crew can help with stability but
does not have as much affect over all. Yes I agree hull shape is
playing a fairly large roll here, narrow boats almost always perform
better once the stability issue is overcome. What a sloop would deal
with readly a cat boat would consider a knock down and a knock down in
a cat boat is always worse than a sloop (helm wise). The funny thing
about narrow boats is they don't have a enough hull forward to support
a unstayed mast so the mast gets moved further aft. Question: what
part of the solution is narrower hull and what part is mast further
aft. Answer: who cares, take the solution perhaps put a jib in front
of it too further improve upwind slot and down wind balance (wing and
wing). Assuming you are like me and don't like the behaviour of
larger cats.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
I consider the weather helm when heeling hard in a blow to be a
safety factor. Gives plenty of warning when it's time to reef, and
rounds you up instead of knocking you over.
safety factor. Gives plenty of warning when it's time to reef, and
rounds you up instead of knocking you over.
--- In bolger@y..., "roue20ca" <amoore@h...> wrote:
> It may help but the large main mast and sail delivers all its power
to
> the bow of the vessel. The problem is not one of balance(CE in
sail)
> it is a problem of delivering the sails power to the hull(Were the
> mast is attach to hull). Because of this, it does not take much
> healing for that power to take control of the boat and sending it
> realing up into the wind. There are several postings on this group
or
> the boatdesign group about this problem. Yes there are some
> exceptions, the AF2 has its mast steped aft from the bow which helps
> prevent this; its closer to the main living space of the cabin
> though.;) Phil's Burgundy, Anhinga, Birdwatcher and numerous others
> are also exceptions to the rule. Most luggers also step the mast
aft
> a little further. Most of the exceptions result in a reduction in
> sail area, the forward triangle(rectangle if you put a gaff or
lugger
> up front) is not used. Can you not picture a jib forward of your
main
> mast of your AF2, I can. I bet a small blade jib up there would
> improve the flow of air over your main and thus your sailing
> performance. I will admit this is not likely a big problem in a
Micro
> it is not real noticable until you get to 19' to 20'. Go for a sail
> on Nonsuche 22', 26' or other similar cat boat in a 20 or even 15
knot
> wind and tell me you did not experience arm breaking weather helm
> during that sail.
>
> Andy Moore
> Nova Scotia
> Canada
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "rlspell2000" <richard@s...> wrote:
> > emm. My cat rigged AF2 has negligable weather helm.
> >
> > Is'nt that what the mizzen is for on the Micro, to trim out the
> > weather helm?
> >
> [The Frosty] would be far more popular if it were self-rescuingMine was! Or at least my late lamented second boat, which vanished
before I finished fitting it out. All you really need to do is
leave the bulkhead in one solid piece rather than cutting a U in
it, and possibly add a second at the forward edge of the fantail.
If I were building another Frosty, though, I'd probably delete the
aft flotation tank, as it's awfully convenient to have that extra
space under the fantail to tuck your legs.
-- Sue --
(Frosty #819 and #821)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
Finally, something I know a little about.
Having raced Frosties for a number of years until the fleet started
to dissapate, I can speak to the ways to make it go.
1. minimize rudder movement
2. tack by turning aft, (an aft sheeting arrangement works well on
this boat)
3. sail cut matching mast bend can be very advantageous.
4. heel lightly to windward when heading downwind, yes, it is
dangerous, due to the death roll that occurs at the leeward mark, but
maximizes sail area to the existing wind.
5. Keep the weight out of the stern to minimize drag, there is a
hairline difference between dragging a stern wave, and maximizing
waterline. Remember, this boat does not plane, it is just not going
to happen.
The best sailors in other boats are always the best sailors in the
frosty, therefore there is more to this boat than just a good sail.
Techniques such as roll tacking, smooth jibes, body placement,
hiking, and seeking out the shifts play the most part in sailing it.
This boat would be far more popular if it were self-rescuing, alas I
sold mine with the thought of rebuilding if the fleet once again
became more active.
Karl Anderson - J24/Soling/IOD champ
Tom Leach - former college star, inventor of the Frostie
Barry Sturgis - J22 champ
Tim O'Keefe - Wianno Senior champ
all race(d) Frosties, this was a lot of fun for round the bouys for
a beer type of guys like me. You can learn a lot from hanging around
experts.
David Jost
I've never sailed a
Having raced Frosties for a number of years until the fleet started
to dissapate, I can speak to the ways to make it go.
1. minimize rudder movement
2. tack by turning aft, (an aft sheeting arrangement works well on
this boat)
3. sail cut matching mast bend can be very advantageous.
4. heel lightly to windward when heading downwind, yes, it is
dangerous, due to the death roll that occurs at the leeward mark, but
maximizes sail area to the existing wind.
5. Keep the weight out of the stern to minimize drag, there is a
hairline difference between dragging a stern wave, and maximizing
waterline. Remember, this boat does not plane, it is just not going
to happen.
The best sailors in other boats are always the best sailors in the
frosty, therefore there is more to this boat than just a good sail.
Techniques such as roll tacking, smooth jibes, body placement,
hiking, and seeking out the shifts play the most part in sailing it.
This boat would be far more popular if it were self-rescuing, alas I
sold mine with the thought of rebuilding if the fleet once again
became more active.
Karl Anderson - J24/Soling/IOD champ
Tom Leach - former college star, inventor of the Frostie
Barry Sturgis - J22 champ
Tim O'Keefe - Wianno Senior champ
all race(d) Frosties, this was a lot of fun for round the bouys for
a beer type of guys like me. You can learn a lot from hanging around
experts.
David Jost
I've never sailed a
> Frostie, but I'll bet in close racing all the things you mentionare
> especially important because there is so little potential forgetting
> big speed increases through sail trim and sheer atheleticism.
>
> Peter
Tech Dinghies probably need all that, which is probably why I
visualize transoms when I remember racing in them. And they are
definitely like that trying to gybe downwind in heavy air, except
instead of speed the goal is keeping the water out.
visualize transoms when I remember racing in them. And they are
definitely like that trying to gybe downwind in heavy air, except
instead of speed the goal is keeping the water out.
--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...> wrote:
> > Some of us racing types race Lasers or Europes or Finns or
> > C Scows or Cape Cod Frosties, all of which are catboats. I'm
> > not sure about the other classes, but coordinating the sail
> > trim, the rudder, and the hull all as one unit is crucial to
> > success in a Laser; you steer by turning the rudder AND trimming
> > the sail AND rolling the boat, and you're always doing some
> > combination of the above in response to puffs and waves.
>
> Oh, you are a **GOOD** sailor.
>
> I didn't mean to either be patronizing or to talk down to anyone,
and
> Lord knows, I do have a pedantic streak. I just wanted to illustrate
> the two points that (1) a catboat is not easier to sail than a sloop
> and (2) the weather helm can be mitigated with proper techniques.
> (Note the repetition. That's the pedantic thing.) I've never sailed
a
> Frostie, but I'll bet in close racing all the things you mention are
> especially important because there is so little potential for
getting
> big speed increases through sail trim and sheer atheleticism.
>
> Peter
> Some of us racing types race Lasers or Europes or Finns orOh, you are a **GOOD** sailor.
> C Scows or Cape Cod Frosties, all of which are catboats. I'm
> not sure about the other classes, but coordinating the sail
> trim, the rudder, and the hull all as one unit is crucial to
> success in a Laser; you steer by turning the rudder AND trimming
> the sail AND rolling the boat, and you're always doing some
> combination of the above in response to puffs and waves.
I didn't mean to either be patronizing or to talk down to anyone, and
Lord knows, I do have a pedantic streak. I just wanted to illustrate
the two points that (1) a catboat is not easier to sail than a sloop
and (2) the weather helm can be mitigated with proper techniques.
(Note the repetition. That's the pedantic thing.) I've never sailed a
Frostie, but I'll bet in close racing all the things you mention are
especially important because there is so little potential for getting
big speed increases through sail trim and sheer atheleticism.
Peter
> It's a hard lesson for us racing types, but the fastest waySome of us racing types race Lasers or Europes or Finns or
> to trim sail on a cat may not be the way that has the best
> aerodynamics because the balance of hydronamic forces comes
> into play as well.
C Scows or Cape Cod Frosties, all of which are catboats. I'm
not sure about the other classes, but coordinating the sail
trim, the rudder, and the hull all as one unit is crucial to
success in a Laser; you steer by turning the rudder AND trimming
the sail AND rolling the boat, and you're always doing some
combination of the above in response to puffs and waves.
-- Sue --
(*-- 44804)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> Are you sure this isn't a problem with the shape of the catboat'sA well-designed catboat should have a normal helm while sailing close-
> hull?
hauled. Off the wind is a different story. Consider a cat running
dead downwind, with the sail out 90 degrees. The driving force is
from the middle of the sail, out over the water somewhere. The
resistance is from the middle of the hull. The two forces make a
couple which in this case is a turning moment. In order to keep the
boat going straight, the rudder must apply a turning moment in the
other direction, i.e. weather helm. The situation can be moderated to
a great extent by overtrimming the main. Then then force from the
sail has a sideways component which lessens the helm. (Not true on
sloops; the mast is too far aft in a sloop for this to work.)
Catboats are inherently less well balanced than sloops, but if you
learn to work with them, you shouldn't be too troubled by weather
helm. It's a hard lesson for us racing types, but the fastest way to
trim sail on a cat may not be the way that has the best aerodynamics
because the balance of hydronamic forces comes into play as well.
This is true of all boats, of course, but in the modern sloop the
balance is good enough that most sailors give little thought for
trimming the sails to minimize helm (and rudder drag).
In answer to the specific question, I think the wide beam of the Cape
Cod cat helps by reducing the amount of heel. Even a sloop becomes
hard to steer if it heels too much.
Peter
Are you sure this isn't a problem with the shape of the catboat's
hull? I've noticed that most of them tend to be pretty wide, and I'd
think they'd round up pretty good when heeled. My old Oday Sprite had
a wide, shallow hull and would round up severely when heeled enough,
even when rigged as a sloop. Maybe also because the sails tend to be
wide, which increases the "pitching" moment of the "airfoil". (In this
case it's more of a yawing moment since we are dealing with a boat and
not an airplane.)
When I visualize the forces and moments involved, I can't figure out
why putting the mast forward would result in the effects described,
but I can definitely visualize a wide sail or wide hull doing this. If
the mast is sufficiently heavy that a full bow is required, I suppose
that would make the helm worse.
hull? I've noticed that most of them tend to be pretty wide, and I'd
think they'd round up pretty good when heeled. My old Oday Sprite had
a wide, shallow hull and would round up severely when heeled enough,
even when rigged as a sloop. Maybe also because the sails tend to be
wide, which increases the "pitching" moment of the "airfoil". (In this
case it's more of a yawing moment since we are dealing with a boat and
not an airplane.)
When I visualize the forces and moments involved, I can't figure out
why putting the mast forward would result in the effects described,
but I can definitely visualize a wide sail or wide hull doing this. If
the mast is sufficiently heavy that a full bow is required, I suppose
that would make the helm worse.
--- In bolger@y..., "roue20ca" <amoore@h...> wrote:
> It may help but the large main mast and sail delivers all its power
to
> the bow of the vessel. The problem is not one of balance(CE in
sail)
> it is a problem of delivering the sails power to the hull(Were the
> mast is attach to hull). Because of this, it does not take much
> healing for that power to take control of the boat and sending it
> realing up into the wind. There are several postings on this group
or
> the boatdesign group about this problem. snip
> it is not real noticable until you get to 19' to 20'. Go for a sail
> on Nonsuche 22', 26' or other similar cat boat in a 20 or even 15
knot
> wind and tell me you did not experience arm breaking weather helm
> during that sail.
>
> Andy Moore
> Nova Scotia
> Canada
It may help but the large main mast and sail delivers all its power to
the bow of the vessel. The problem is not one of balance(CE in sail)
it is a problem of delivering the sails power to the hull(Were the
mast is attach to hull). Because of this, it does not take much
healing for that power to take control of the boat and sending it
realing up into the wind. There are several postings on this group or
the boatdesign group about this problem. Yes there are some
exceptions, the AF2 has its mast steped aft from the bow which helps
prevent this; its closer to the main living space of the cabin
though.;) Phil's Burgundy, Anhinga, Birdwatcher and numerous others
are also exceptions to the rule. Most luggers also step the mast aft
a little further. Most of the exceptions result in a reduction in
sail area, the forward triangle(rectangle if you put a gaff or lugger
up front) is not used. Can you not picture a jib forward of your main
mast of your AF2, I can. I bet a small blade jib up there would
improve the flow of air over your main and thus your sailing
performance. I will admit this is not likely a big problem in a Micro
it is not real noticable until you get to 19' to 20'. Go for a sail
on Nonsuche 22', 26' or other similar cat boat in a 20 or even 15 knot
wind and tell me you did not experience arm breaking weather helm
during that sail.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
the bow of the vessel. The problem is not one of balance(CE in sail)
it is a problem of delivering the sails power to the hull(Were the
mast is attach to hull). Because of this, it does not take much
healing for that power to take control of the boat and sending it
realing up into the wind. There are several postings on this group or
the boatdesign group about this problem. Yes there are some
exceptions, the AF2 has its mast steped aft from the bow which helps
prevent this; its closer to the main living space of the cabin
though.;) Phil's Burgundy, Anhinga, Birdwatcher and numerous others
are also exceptions to the rule. Most luggers also step the mast aft
a little further. Most of the exceptions result in a reduction in
sail area, the forward triangle(rectangle if you put a gaff or lugger
up front) is not used. Can you not picture a jib forward of your main
mast of your AF2, I can. I bet a small blade jib up there would
improve the flow of air over your main and thus your sailing
performance. I will admit this is not likely a big problem in a Micro
it is not real noticable until you get to 19' to 20'. Go for a sail
on Nonsuche 22', 26' or other similar cat boat in a 20 or even 15 knot
wind and tell me you did not experience arm breaking weather helm
during that sail.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
--- In bolger@y..., "rlspell2000" <richard@s...> wrote:
> emm. My cat rigged AF2 has negligable weather helm.
>
> Is'nt that what the mizzen is for on the Micro, to trim out the
> weather helm?
>
emm. My cat rigged AF2 has negligable weather helm.
Is'nt that what the mizzen is for on the Micro, to trim out the
weather helm?
Is'nt that what the mizzen is for on the Micro, to trim out the
weather helm?
--- In bolger@y..., "roue20ca" <amoore@h...> wrote:
> Dick, this is not black and white issue. Just because I choose to
> improve the rig does not mean I'm giving up on cabins. Boats are a
> compromise; I'm prepared to have a mast in my cabin, their not that
> big in order to due away with a bad weather helm. I very much
dislike
> excessive weather helm on a boat and cat boats have it by nature.
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "dickpilz" <dickpilz@g...> wrote:
> > The whole idea of the mast placement in the micro and long micro
is
> > to keep those big sticks out of the way of the people area.
> >
> > If the sail arrangements are all that important to you, you ought
to
> > consider a design that _wasn't_ optimized for living space.
> >
> > Dick
> >
Dick, this is not black and white issue. Just because I choose to
improve the rig does not mean I'm giving up on cabins. Boats are a
compromise; I'm prepared to have a mast in my cabin, their not that
big in order to due away with a bad weather helm. I very much dislike
excessive weather helm on a boat and cat boats have it by nature.
improve the rig does not mean I'm giving up on cabins. Boats are a
compromise; I'm prepared to have a mast in my cabin, their not that
big in order to due away with a bad weather helm. I very much dislike
excessive weather helm on a boat and cat boats have it by nature.
--- In bolger@y..., "dickpilz" <dickpilz@g...> wrote:
> The whole idea of the mast placement in the micro and long micro is
> to keep those big sticks out of the way of the people area.
>
> If the sail arrangements are all that important to you, you ought to
> consider a design that _wasn't_ optimized for living space.
>
> Dick
>
I don't get to look at the group much anymore, but it's nice to be
famous! ;-) One of these days I will get around to revamping my
site, but in the meantime here is the link you were looking for.
http://www.geocities.com/owlnmole/Pages/molehome.html
I agree with everything Lincoln said, but I would personally go for a
wooden chile log (glass and resis is just so icky) and add some kind
of floatation, even if it's just Wacky Noodles on the gunwales or
store-boat inflatable floatation chambers for a canoe.
It really is a no-brainer as projects go, and yes, I just blew up the
sketches from the book.
Regards,
Matthew Long
Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic
famous! ;-) One of these days I will get around to revamping my
site, but in the meantime here is the link you were looking for.
http://www.geocities.com/owlnmole/Pages/molehome.html
I agree with everything Lincoln said, but I would personally go for a
wooden chile log (glass and resis is just so icky) and add some kind
of floatation, even if it's just Wacky Noodles on the gunwales or
store-boat inflatable floatation chambers for a canoe.
It really is a no-brainer as projects go, and yes, I just blew up the
sketches from the book.
Regards,
Matthew Long
Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic
The whole idea of the mast placement in the micro and long micro is
to keep those big sticks out of the way of the people area.
If the sail arrangements are all that important to you, you ought to
consider a design that _wasn't_ optimized for living space.
Dick
to keep those big sticks out of the way of the people area.
If the sail arrangements are all that important to you, you ought to
consider a design that _wasn't_ optimized for living space.
Dick
--- In bolger@y..., "roue20ca" <amoore@h...> wrote:
> I'm not anti sloop either. What I don't like the larger cat boats
> with big heavey main masts in the very bows of the boat. How hard
do
> you think it would be to take a long micro; move the main mast aft
and
> relocate the mizzen to the bow, rerigging her as a sloop or a cat
> schooner.
>
> Andy Moore
> Nova Scotia
> Canada
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "rlspell2000" <richard@s...> wrote:
> > I'm toying with putting up a page to rant about sloops, standing
> > rigging, high aspect mains, big headsails, and deep keels.
> >
> > Anyone want to contribute thier personal observations/rants?
I'm not anti sloop either. What I don't like the larger cat boats
with big heavey main masts in the very bows of the boat. How hard do
you think it would be to take a long micro; move the main mast aft and
relocate the mizzen to the bow, rerigging her as a sloop or a cat
schooner.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
with big heavey main masts in the very bows of the boat. How hard do
you think it would be to take a long micro; move the main mast aft and
relocate the mizzen to the bow, rerigging her as a sloop or a cat
schooner.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
--- In bolger@y..., "rlspell2000" <richard@s...> wrote:
> I'm toying with putting up a page to rant about sloops, standing
> rigging, high aspect mains, big headsails, and deep keels.
>
> Anyone want to contribute thier personal observations/rants?
Richard, well said.
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
Andy Moore
Nova Scotia
Canada
>maintained
> Richard,
> Can't really say I have anything against sloops or any other
> rig.For that matter,I can't really say I like sailboats over
> powerboats.I love them all!
> But,I can say how much I despise a poorly handled and
> boat! Nothing enrages me more then to see a boat handled withcomplete
> disregard for the law or safety of others.The most basic of humanwater.My
> courtesy even gets passed over by some of the maniacs out on the
> water.
> Where I do my boating on the St.Lawrence right near
> Montréal,there are 9 marinas/clubs all on the same stretch of
> club has close to 500 boats alone.You can imagine what evenings andown
> weekends are like! Add to this shallow rocky areas with narrow well
> defined channels and you have yourself a race track. Thankfully,I
> a boat that allows me to sail outside most channels and since I'veenough
> been on the same waters for the past 27 years I know them well
> to escape the fools.lovely
> However,I'll never forget the day I was slowly sailing up one
> channel( against a current) when I spied a 40' canary yellow
> Cigarette speed demon coming up from behind.That's one of those
> creations that can travel over 60mph on the water leaping free fromlike
> the surface for distances greater then my boat is long! Knowing that
> he would be up my ass in gig time,I prudently began to take steps to
> ease out of the channel.But before I could even begin to release the
> mainsheet this monster machine had all but dropped into the water a
> mere 2 boat lenghts astern of me.Thinking that something had perhaps
> gone wrong,I held off changing course to see what was up.Looking
> some futuristic killing machine and every bit as menacing,it nearlyrelief
> vibrated my innards loose,as it slowly rumbled up and by my boat
> barely disturbing the water.Keeping a wary eye on the beast,lest it
> decide to make a snack out of me,I snuck a quick glance toward the
> slave at the helm.Without so much as a"How d'ya do?"he kept his eyes
> fixed forward directing the beast beyond me.Puzzled,yet feeling
> at the same time,I casually glanced astern just in case somethingelse
> was coming up river when suddenly,the air was ripped by a violentbeast,I
> explosion of engine sounds! Whipping my head around toward the
> quickly saw it just about leap from the water and race away up theengines
> channel!
> It took a fair number of minutes before the thunder of his
> had faded away before it dawned on me that I had just witnessed aof
> smart display of one of the" rules of the road" when over-taking
> another vessel. I was almost giddy from the experience and from one
> the least likely stereo-types to boot! Unfortunately my state ofmind
> was quickly returned to normal when some little bastard in arunabout
> wanted to see just how fast and close he could get to me just tothat
> demonstrate to his girl that his boat can go faster then a
> sailboat.Probably the same type that hasn't yet figured out what
> little lever is for on the left side of his cars steeringwheel......
> Anyway,reckless boaters drive me nuts and inspire all sorts of
> evil thoughts designed to accelerate their arrival at the pearly
> gates(if that is indeed where they are headed,the bums!)
> O.K.,so there is my rant for ya.Happy to contribute!!!
>
> Sincerely,
> Peter Lenihan,counting backward from 100,in French,to bring my heart
> rate back down enough to enjoy the rest of the day/evening,along the
> shores of the S.Lawrence............
Time you folks moved to the other coast. I've found that on this side the
big-boaters are generally very interested in, and appreciative of, small
cruisers (like a Chebacco) that they find themselves sharing the ocean with.
Last summer we were well received everywhere we went, and just two weeks ago
a very smart looking power cruiser turned away from his course, just to come
alongside and say hello.
I can hear a real touch of envy in some of these meetings -- so be kind to
those less fortunate than yourselves, and let them pout.
Jamie Orr
MInd you, I bet the envy only lasts until the rain and spray starts coming
over the bow, and the coffee mugs start falling over!
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Lefebvre [mailto:paul@...]
Sent: March 11, 2002 1:11 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: death to sloops!
Bruce, lately I've been dreaming of names for my Micro so I have to hand it
to you, the name you've picked is perfect for that boat and the scenario you
just described. Here on Cape Cod we have our fair share of ostentatious
boats with stuck-up names whose owners have attitudes to match, and I'm sure
I'll too-frequently find myself in their company in some 'exclusive'
anchorage, receiving glares over the rim of martini glasses at sunset. What
better in-your-face name for a boat like Micro in a crowd like that, than
Riff-Raff! Awesome name. Wish I'd thought of it first!
back to the drawing board!
Paul
big-boaters are generally very interested in, and appreciative of, small
cruisers (like a Chebacco) that they find themselves sharing the ocean with.
Last summer we were well received everywhere we went, and just two weeks ago
a very smart looking power cruiser turned away from his course, just to come
alongside and say hello.
I can hear a real touch of envy in some of these meetings -- so be kind to
those less fortunate than yourselves, and let them pout.
Jamie Orr
MInd you, I bet the envy only lasts until the rain and spray starts coming
over the bow, and the coffee mugs start falling over!
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Lefebvre [mailto:paul@...]
Sent: March 11, 2002 1:11 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: death to sloops!
Bruce, lately I've been dreaming of names for my Micro so I have to hand it
to you, the name you've picked is perfect for that boat and the scenario you
just described. Here on Cape Cod we have our fair share of ostentatious
boats with stuck-up names whose owners have attitudes to match, and I'm sure
I'll too-frequently find myself in their company in some 'exclusive'
anchorage, receiving glares over the rim of martini glasses at sunset. What
better in-your-face name for a boat like Micro in a crowd like that, than
Riff-Raff! Awesome name. Wish I'd thought of it first!
back to the drawing board!
Paul
--- In bolger@y..., "rlspell2000" <richard@s...> wrote:
Can't really say I have anything against sloops or any other
rig.For that matter,I can't really say I like sailboats over
powerboats.I love them all!
But,I can say how much I despise a poorly handled and maintained
boat! Nothing enrages me more then to see a boat handled with complete
disregard for the law or safety of others.The most basic of human
courtesy even gets passed over by some of the maniacs out on the
water.
Where I do my boating on the St.Lawrence right near
Montréal,there are 9 marinas/clubs all on the same stretch of water.My
club has close to 500 boats alone.You can imagine what evenings and
weekends are like! Add to this shallow rocky areas with narrow well
defined channels and you have yourself a race track. Thankfully,I own
a boat that allows me to sail outside most channels and since I've
been on the same waters for the past 27 years I know them well enough
to escape the fools.
However,I'll never forget the day I was slowly sailing up one
channel( against a current) when I spied a 40' canary yellow
Cigarette speed demon coming up from behind.That's one of those lovely
creations that can travel over 60mph on the water leaping free from
the surface for distances greater then my boat is long! Knowing that
he would be up my ass in gig time,I prudently began to take steps to
ease out of the channel.But before I could even begin to release the
mainsheet this monster machine had all but dropped into the water a
mere 2 boat lenghts astern of me.Thinking that something had perhaps
gone wrong,I held off changing course to see what was up.Looking like
some futuristic killing machine and every bit as menacing,it nearly
vibrated my innards loose,as it slowly rumbled up and by my boat
barely disturbing the water.Keeping a wary eye on the beast,lest it
decide to make a snack out of me,I snuck a quick glance toward the
slave at the helm.Without so much as a"How d'ya do?"he kept his eyes
fixed forward directing the beast beyond me.Puzzled,yet feeling relief
at the same time,I casually glanced astern just in case something else
was coming up river when suddenly,the air was ripped by a violent
explosion of engine sounds! Whipping my head around toward the beast,I
quickly saw it just about leap from the water and race away up the
channel!
It took a fair number of minutes before the thunder of his engines
had faded away before it dawned on me that I had just witnessed a
smart display of one of the" rules of the road" when over-taking
another vessel. I was almost giddy from the experience and from one of
the least likely stereo-types to boot! Unfortunately my state of mind
was quickly returned to normal when some little bastard in a runabout
wanted to see just how fast and close he could get to me just to
demonstrate to his girl that his boat can go faster then a
sailboat.Probably the same type that hasn't yet figured out what that
little lever is for on the left side of his cars steering wheel......
Anyway,reckless boaters drive me nuts and inspire all sorts of
evil thoughts designed to accelerate their arrival at the pearly
gates(if that is indeed where they are headed,the bums!)
O.K.,so there is my rant for ya.Happy to contribute!!!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,counting backward from 100,in French,to bring my heart
rate back down enough to enjoy the rest of the day/evening,along the
shores of the S.Lawrence............
> I'm toying with putting up a page to rant about sloops, standingRichard,
> rigging, high aspect mains, big headsails, and deep keels.
>
> Anyone want to contribute thier personal observations/rants?
Can't really say I have anything against sloops or any other
rig.For that matter,I can't really say I like sailboats over
powerboats.I love them all!
But,I can say how much I despise a poorly handled and maintained
boat! Nothing enrages me more then to see a boat handled with complete
disregard for the law or safety of others.The most basic of human
courtesy even gets passed over by some of the maniacs out on the
water.
Where I do my boating on the St.Lawrence right near
Montréal,there are 9 marinas/clubs all on the same stretch of water.My
club has close to 500 boats alone.You can imagine what evenings and
weekends are like! Add to this shallow rocky areas with narrow well
defined channels and you have yourself a race track. Thankfully,I own
a boat that allows me to sail outside most channels and since I've
been on the same waters for the past 27 years I know them well enough
to escape the fools.
However,I'll never forget the day I was slowly sailing up one
channel( against a current) when I spied a 40' canary yellow
Cigarette speed demon coming up from behind.That's one of those lovely
creations that can travel over 60mph on the water leaping free from
the surface for distances greater then my boat is long! Knowing that
he would be up my ass in gig time,I prudently began to take steps to
ease out of the channel.But before I could even begin to release the
mainsheet this monster machine had all but dropped into the water a
mere 2 boat lenghts astern of me.Thinking that something had perhaps
gone wrong,I held off changing course to see what was up.Looking like
some futuristic killing machine and every bit as menacing,it nearly
vibrated my innards loose,as it slowly rumbled up and by my boat
barely disturbing the water.Keeping a wary eye on the beast,lest it
decide to make a snack out of me,I snuck a quick glance toward the
slave at the helm.Without so much as a"How d'ya do?"he kept his eyes
fixed forward directing the beast beyond me.Puzzled,yet feeling relief
at the same time,I casually glanced astern just in case something else
was coming up river when suddenly,the air was ripped by a violent
explosion of engine sounds! Whipping my head around toward the beast,I
quickly saw it just about leap from the water and race away up the
channel!
It took a fair number of minutes before the thunder of his engines
had faded away before it dawned on me that I had just witnessed a
smart display of one of the" rules of the road" when over-taking
another vessel. I was almost giddy from the experience and from one of
the least likely stereo-types to boot! Unfortunately my state of mind
was quickly returned to normal when some little bastard in a runabout
wanted to see just how fast and close he could get to me just to
demonstrate to his girl that his boat can go faster then a
sailboat.Probably the same type that hasn't yet figured out what that
little lever is for on the left side of his cars steering wheel......
Anyway,reckless boaters drive me nuts and inspire all sorts of
evil thoughts designed to accelerate their arrival at the pearly
gates(if that is indeed where they are headed,the bums!)
O.K.,so there is my rant for ya.Happy to contribute!!!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,counting backward from 100,in French,to bring my heart
rate back down enough to enjoy the rest of the day/evening,along the
shores of the S.Lawrence............
I don't object to a marconi sloop. I object to the fact that ALL the
boats are marconi sloops, and I miss the yawls and schooners and
catboats and gaff sloops that are missing.
PHV
boats are marconi sloops, and I miss the yawls and schooners and
catboats and gaff sloops that are missing.
PHV
Matthew Long built one. Do a web search with, possibly, additional
terms like Tetard or owlnmole (not to mention Yellow Leaf). (We own
Tetard, a Brick that he built.)
Yellow Leaf appears in Small Boats, with enough detail to build, I
think. I'll bet the plans are available, too, but I don't know. It is
very lightly constructed for temporary use, and you might want to add
gunwhales at the least. I think some of Bolger's caveats in the book
regarding the glass tape joints apply mostly to polyester resin and
glass, as I've been impressed by the durability of epoxy and glass.
terms like Tetard or owlnmole (not to mention Yellow Leaf). (We own
Tetard, a Brick that he built.)
Yellow Leaf appears in Small Boats, with enough detail to build, I
think. I'll bet the plans are available, too, but I don't know. It is
very lightly constructed for temporary use, and you might want to add
gunwhales at the least. I think some of Bolger's caveats in the book
regarding the glass tape joints apply mostly to polyester resin and
glass, as I've been impressed by the durability of epoxy and glass.
--- In bolger@y..., Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@y...> wrote:
> Posted on the files section is a pirogue or ditch
> boat, Yellow Leaf, which appears to be from one of
> Bolger's earlier books. Has anyone built this boat?
> Are the plans available from Bolger& Friends or
> elsewhere? Unfortunately my resolution of the scan is
> poor, but this looks like a sweet little boat, very
> easy to build, a canoe version of the light dory.
> Looks like just the thing for the local millponds.
>
Posted on the files section is a pirogue or ditch
boat, Yellow Leaf, which appears to be from one of
Bolger's earlier books. Has anyone built this boat?
Are the plans available from Bolger& Friends or
elsewhere? Unfortunately my resolution of the scan is
poor, but this looks like a sweet little boat, very
easy to build, a canoe version of the light dory.
Looks like just the thing for the local millponds.
Thanks for your help. Sam.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
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boat, Yellow Leaf, which appears to be from one of
Bolger's earlier books. Has anyone built this boat?
Are the plans available from Bolger& Friends or
elsewhere? Unfortunately my resolution of the scan is
poor, but this looks like a sweet little boat, very
easy to build, a canoe version of the light dory.
Looks like just the thing for the local millponds.
Thanks for your help. Sam.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
http://mail.yahoo.com/
Bruce, lately I've been dreaming of names for my Micro so I have to hand it
to you, the name you've picked is perfect for that boat and the scenario you
just described. Here on Cape Cod we have our fair share of ostentatious
boats with stuck-up names whose owners have attitudes to match, and I'm sure
I'll too-frequently find myself in their company in some 'exclusive'
anchorage, receiving glares over the rim of martini glasses at sunset. What
better in-your-face name for a boat like Micro in a crowd like that, than
Riff-Raff! Awesome name. Wish I'd thought of it first!
back to the drawing board!
Paul
to you, the name you've picked is perfect for that boat and the scenario you
just described. Here on Cape Cod we have our fair share of ostentatious
boats with stuck-up names whose owners have attitudes to match, and I'm sure
I'll too-frequently find myself in their company in some 'exclusive'
anchorage, receiving glares over the rim of martini glasses at sunset. What
better in-your-face name for a boat like Micro in a crowd like that, than
Riff-Raff! Awesome name. Wish I'd thought of it first!
back to the drawing board!
Paul
We sure are a snobby bunch.
When people ask me if I'm a member of the local sailing club, I
reply "No, I'm to stuck up.". Only half joking...
Pretty exclusive club we have here. You don't have membership fees,
you just have to build your own boat!
When people ask me if I'm a member of the local sailing club, I
reply "No, I'm to stuck up.". Only half joking...
Pretty exclusive club we have here. You don't have membership fees,
you just have to build your own boat!
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
> I don't hate all sloops, after all the Wizard of Gloucester has
> designed quite a few of them.
>
> I don't love all the factory made, plastic, seldom leave the dock
> floating palaces whose owners look over the rim of their martinni
> glasses at my houseboat, or worse, at me as I row by in Nymph as if
> something a little off has blown in on the afternoon sou'wester.
>
> I daresay, my distain can't have anything to do with the fact that
I
> don't have an ice cold, shaken not stirred, martinni and they do.
>
> Can't wait to drop in to their clubs in "Riff-Raff" and hoist a
pint
> of the amber throat charmer next summer. It's nice to think that
I'll
> have fewer bucks in my litle yacht than they pay in annual club
dues.
>
> Bruce Hector
> www.tongue-firmly-in-cheek.com
I'm toying with ideas for quick-striking the masts, so I can SAIL
under low bridges (on mizzen power)...
Would that be a way to show off to the bleach bottle crowd?
under low bridges (on mizzen power)...
Would that be a way to show off to the bleach bottle crowd?
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehector" <bruce_hector@h...> wrote:
> I don't hate all sloops, after all the Wizard of Gloucester has
> designed quite a few of them.
>
> I don't love all the factory made, plastic, seldom leave the dock
> floating palaces whose owners look over the rim of their martinni
> glasses at my houseboat, or worse, at me as I row by in Nymph as if
> something a little off has blown in on the afternoon sou'wester.
>
> I daresay, my distain can't have anything to do with the fact that
I
> don't have an ice cold, shaken not stirred, martinni and they do.
>
> Can't wait to drop in to their clubs in "Riff-Raff" and hoist a
pint
> of the amber throat charmer next summer. It's nice to think that
I'll
> have fewer bucks in my litle yacht than they pay in annual club
dues.
>
> Bruce Hector
> www.tongue-firmly-in-cheek.com
I don't hate all sloops, after all the Wizard of Gloucester has
designed quite a few of them.
I don't love all the factory made, plastic, seldom leave the dock
floating palaces whose owners look over the rim of their martinni
glasses at my houseboat, or worse, at me as I row by in Nymph as if
something a little off has blown in on the afternoon sou'wester.
I daresay, my distain can't have anything to do with the fact that I
don't have an ice cold, shaken not stirred, martinni and they do.
Can't wait to drop in to their clubs in "Riff-Raff" and hoist a pint
of the amber throat charmer next summer. It's nice to think that I'll
have fewer bucks in my litle yacht than they pay in annual club dues.
Bruce Hector
www.tongue-firmly-in-cheek.com
designed quite a few of them.
I don't love all the factory made, plastic, seldom leave the dock
floating palaces whose owners look over the rim of their martinni
glasses at my houseboat, or worse, at me as I row by in Nymph as if
something a little off has blown in on the afternoon sou'wester.
I daresay, my distain can't have anything to do with the fact that I
don't have an ice cold, shaken not stirred, martinni and they do.
Can't wait to drop in to their clubs in "Riff-Raff" and hoist a pint
of the amber throat charmer next summer. It's nice to think that I'll
have fewer bucks in my litle yacht than they pay in annual club dues.
Bruce Hector
www.tongue-firmly-in-cheek.com
I'm toying with putting up a page to rant about sloops, standing
rigging, high aspect mains, big headsails, and deep keels.
Anyone want to contribute thier personal observations/rants?
rigging, high aspect mains, big headsails, and deep keels.
Anyone want to contribute thier personal observations/rants?
Hi rlspell
How odd to read that BIG HEAD SAILS ya I like doing that 200% reacher
drifter or 200% geona 20 to 29ft boats.
CHEERS WILLO
-----Original Message-----
From: rlspell2000 [mailto:richard@...]
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 4:07 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] death to sloops!
I'm toying with putting up a page to rant about sloops, standing
rigging, high aspect mains, big headsails, and deep keels.
Anyone want to contribute thier personal observations/rants?
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
How odd to read that BIG HEAD SAILS ya I like doing that 200% reacher
drifter or 200% geona 20 to 29ft boats.
CHEERS WILLO
-----Original Message-----
From: rlspell2000 [mailto:richard@...]
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 4:07 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] death to sloops!
I'm toying with putting up a page to rant about sloops, standing
rigging, high aspect mains, big headsails, and deep keels.
Anyone want to contribute thier personal observations/rants?
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]