Re: "bolgeresque"
> Are there any differences between Alert and Manatee?Alert is a boat that was built to the Manatee design. She has had a
remarkable history, well outside the parameters of the original
concept has a daysailer/overnighter. For example, she was sailed
across the Atlantic and has explored a lot of northern Europe.
Her rig has been changed from the cat yawl to Bolger's own Chinese
Gaffer rig. This is a gaff rig with chinese style sheetlets to full
length battens. No mizzen. Bolger seems to use "Alert" for the design
name rather than "Manatee" in honor of the prize example.
Of all the Bolger boats, this is the design (original rig) that meets
my criteria the best, with the caveat that I probably have enough
pull with my own yacht club to get a not-completely-rediculous rating
for our club races. Hence, the Bolger boat that I most covet. This
week, anyway.
Another nominee for most-Bolgeresque of Bolger boats would be
Benengaria. You get most of the features of Alert with the Bolger-
proportion schooner rig instead of the cat yawl, plus the Birdwatcher
cabin and water ballast. I suppose if you want a sharpie, then you
would take the Jochems schooner and get off-center masts as a bonus.
Peter
Are there any differences between Alert and Manatee?
Stuart Crawford
New Zealand
on 13/3/02 6:59 AM, pvanderwaart atpvanderwaart@...wrote:
Stuart Crawford
New Zealand
on 13/3/02 6:59 AM, pvanderwaart atpvanderwaart@...wrote:
> I might have a different answer tomorrow, but today I say that the
> epitome of Bolgeresque is Alert, ex Manatee.
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
Ralph
> Spur, Shivaree, Dovekie, Resolution, Kotick.gasoline
> ===
> All of these are oar/sail [or electric], none are primarily
> powered.A minor correction - Shivaree is a 16' x 7' outboard powered boat.
Ralph
>I think she was named for a Revolutionary War vessel, perhaps aRattlesnake appears in a Chappelle volume I've got somewhere around
>privateer.
here. When I find it I'll post.
-D
C.E.P.
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
Hi,
There is a fellow here in town who has such a boat. Made of fiberglass and
called an Arkansas Traveler.
James
There is a fellow here in town who has such a boat. Made of fiberglass and
called an Arkansas Traveler.
James
----- Original Message -----
From: "futabachan" <futabachan@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 2:33 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Another portagable sailboat (was Peero?)
> > I've developed my own sense of Bolger's signature style and have a
> > list of boats that I think represent it. I'm curious what list of
> > designs the list think best represent "bolgeresque."
>
> I ran across a design for a boat that crawls out of the water and
> turns into a wheelbarrow in Chappelle's _Boatbuilding_ the other
> night, and my first reaction was surprise at not having heard of
> a similar PCB design. I'd think it'd be right up PCB's alley:
> it's a clever solution to a boating problem (getting the boat to
> and from the water at low tide, or to an inland house, or while
> grocery shopping on a cruise), it's something that you can't find
> anywhere else, it's cheap and easy to build, it borrows inspiration
> from the 19th Century (spritsail), it's got some well thought out
> engineering (floodable bow well), and it's connected to Howard
> Chappelle.
>
> Is that enough of a definition for you?
>
> -- Sue --
> (Of course, the PCB version would be an instant boat with a
> leeboard, and the spars would be sized to stow on board when
> the boat was out of the water.)
>
> --
> Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
One further point to add to "Bolgeresque": in addition to being
fond of clever hacks, PCB also seems to enjoy freaking the
mundanes. The wheelbarrow boat also seems Bolgeresque to me
because of the stares one might get from Right Thinking Boaters
whilst sailing about in a wheelbarrow....
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
fond of clever hacks, PCB also seems to enjoy freaking the
mundanes. The wheelbarrow boat also seems Bolgeresque to me
because of the stares one might get from Right Thinking Boaters
whilst sailing about in a wheelbarrow....
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> I have not heard of the Rattlesnake, which isn't in the databasehere either. Is it his design? What type of boat?
PCB designed Rattlesnake for his own use, probably in the 1950's. He
had her built in Maine. She was flat-bottomed, double-ended,
centerboard (I think) sloop (I think) with low freeboard and a tall
rig. More derived from a dory than a sharpie, I think.
After a year or maybe two of use, he had 2x4's added to the bottom
for the ballast effect. A couple of articles about her, and PCB's
adventures sailing her, were reprinted in MAIB sometime in the last
couple of years.
I think she was named for a Revolutionary War vessel, perhaps a
privateer.
Peter
Thomas Firth Jones did a wheelbarrow boat, tho I think the wheel
stayed in place and created lots of drag. It was a slow motorboat, so
that didn't matter much.
stayed in place and created lots of drag. It was a slow motorboat, so
that didn't matter much.
--- In bolger@y..., "futabachan" <futabachan@y...> wrote:
> > I've developed my own sense of Bolger's signature style and have a
> > list of boats that I think represent it. I'm curious what list of
> > designs the list think best represent "bolgeresque."
>
> I ran across a design for a boat that crawls out of the water and
> turns into a wheelbarrow in Chappelle's _Boatbuilding_ the other
> night, and my first reaction was surprise at not having heard of
> a similar PCB design. I'd think it'd be right up PCB's alley:
> it's a clever solution to a boating problem (getting the boat to
> and from the water at low tide, or to an inland house, or while
> grocery shopping on a cruise), it's something that you can't find
> anywhere else, it's cheap and easy to build, it borrows inspiration
> from the 19th Century (spritsail), it's got some well thought out
> engineering (floodable bow well), and it's connected to Howard
> Chappelle.
>
> Is that enough of a definition for you?
>
> -- Sue --
> (Of course, the PCB version would be an instant boat with a
> leeboard, and the spars would be sized to stow on board when
> the boat was out of the water.)
>
> --
> Susan Davis <futabachan@y...>
> I've developed my own sense of Bolger's signature style and have aI ran across a design for a boat that crawls out of the water and
> list of boats that I think represent it. I'm curious what list of
> designs the list think best represent "bolgeresque."
turns into a wheelbarrow in Chappelle's _Boatbuilding_ the other
night, and my first reaction was surprise at not having heard of
a similar PCB design. I'd think it'd be right up PCB's alley:
it's a clever solution to a boating problem (getting the boat to
and from the water at low tide, or to an inland house, or while
grocery shopping on a cruise), it's something that you can't find
anywhere else, it's cheap and easy to build, it borrows inspiration
from the 19th Century (spritsail), it's got some well thought out
engineering (floodable bow well), and it's connected to Howard
Chappelle.
Is that enough of a definition for you?
-- Sue --
(Of course, the PCB version would be an instant boat with a
leeboard, and the spars would be sized to stow on board when
the boat was out of the water.)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...> wrote:
Hard chined:
Thomaston Galley, Tortoise, Folding Schooner, June Bug and Gloucester
Dory, Crystal, Lilly.
Curvy:
Spur, Shivaree, Dovekie, Resolution, Kotick.
===
All of these are oar/sail [or electric], none are primarily gasoline
powered.
I have not heard of the Rattlesnake, which isn't in the database here
either. Is it his design? What type of boat?
I was just reading about Spur, more specifically Spur II, which is
the latest boat I am dreaming of building. Bolger wrote that Spur
was a failure due to excessive weight, and that Spur II is a redesign
to solve that problem. A beautiful lapstrake rowboat, looking like a
Whitehall.
> Thomaston Galley, Spur, Shivaree, Rattlesnake, Dovekie, Crystal,If I recall correctly:
> Tortise, Folding Schooner, June Bug, Gloucester Dory
Hard chined:
Thomaston Galley, Tortoise, Folding Schooner, June Bug and Gloucester
Dory, Crystal, Lilly.
Curvy:
Spur, Shivaree, Dovekie, Resolution, Kotick.
===
All of these are oar/sail [or electric], none are primarily gasoline
powered.
I have not heard of the Rattlesnake, which isn't in the database here
either. Is it his design? What type of boat?
I was just reading about Spur, more specifically Spur II, which is
the latest boat I am dreaming of building. Bolger wrote that Spur
was a failure due to excessive weight, and that Spur II is a redesign
to solve that problem. A beautiful lapstrake rowboat, looking like a
Whitehall.
> > Kotick, Lilly, Resolution come to mind...and what else?And Pointer, of course.
> Thomaston Galley, Spur, Shivaree, Rattlesnake, Dovekie, Crystal,
> Tortise, Folding Schooner, June Bug, Gloucester Dory
> In his youth, an Amesbury skiff and a catboat similar to Mouser.
> Help me here; name some boats he has chosen to own personally.Thomaston Galley, Spur, Shivaree, Rattlesnake, Dovekie, Crystal,
> Kotick, Lilly, Resolution come to mind...and what else?
Tortise, Folding Schooner, June Bug, Gloucester Dory
In his youth, an Amesbury skiff and a catboat similar to Mouser.
--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...> wrote:
the design criteria to be interesting. Because of his quirky
sensibility, I find the study of his boat designs to be fun. Like a
window into his mind.
Patterns develop:
1) The "Instant Boat" family of designs, Tortoise, Teal, Surf, Black
Skimmer, etc. and his relationship with Dynamite Payson.
2) The "Power Sharpie" group, Champlain, Windermer etc. which I
suspect are influenced by his relationship with Susanne Altenburger.
3) The "Advanced Sharpie" series, Jessie Cooper, AS-29, Loose Moose,
etc. I first became aware of these through Common Sense Designs, and
I don't know the history of his relationship with Elrond LaRowe (sp?).
4) Perhaps another catagory is the "push the envelope" type, such as
Brick, Micro, Barge Houseboat, Naval Jelly, Dovekey/Birdwatcher,
Microtrawler and Folding Schooner .
5) A fifth catagory might be called "popular demand" such as the
Chewbacco series, Glouchester Dory, Bob Cat, Clam Skiff, etc..
These are mostly all plywood boats. It is worth noting that while he
seems to enjoy designing the plywood boats, but he doesn't choose to
own them personally.
Help me here; name some boats he has chosen to own personally.
Kotick, Lilly, Resolution come to mind...and what else?
There are another even larger group of planked boats that I cannot
explain well, but which seem to fall into the catagory of custom
individual commissions. One common denominator is that he seems to
favor commissions of historical or nostalgic interest, such
as "Swallow" patterned after Arthur Ransoms books. Viking Longship,
Schuyt Houseboat, Scow Schooner, or "Rose" are other examples.
Another common denominator are boats favored by Capt. Nat and
L.Francis Herreshoff.
Perhaps, another group are the "on a dare" experimental types,
Iceboat, Lilly, Wolfpack, Fast Sternwheeler, Proa, Canard, Staysail
Cat, and the early "cutwater designs" like Hawkeye come to mind.
> epitome of Bolgeresque...PCB chooses accept or reject a commission based on whether he finds
the design criteria to be interesting. Because of his quirky
sensibility, I find the study of his boat designs to be fun. Like a
window into his mind.
Patterns develop:
1) The "Instant Boat" family of designs, Tortoise, Teal, Surf, Black
Skimmer, etc. and his relationship with Dynamite Payson.
2) The "Power Sharpie" group, Champlain, Windermer etc. which I
suspect are influenced by his relationship with Susanne Altenburger.
3) The "Advanced Sharpie" series, Jessie Cooper, AS-29, Loose Moose,
etc. I first became aware of these through Common Sense Designs, and
I don't know the history of his relationship with Elrond LaRowe (sp?).
4) Perhaps another catagory is the "push the envelope" type, such as
Brick, Micro, Barge Houseboat, Naval Jelly, Dovekey/Birdwatcher,
Microtrawler and Folding Schooner .
5) A fifth catagory might be called "popular demand" such as the
Chewbacco series, Glouchester Dory, Bob Cat, Clam Skiff, etc..
These are mostly all plywood boats. It is worth noting that while he
seems to enjoy designing the plywood boats, but he doesn't choose to
own them personally.
Help me here; name some boats he has chosen to own personally.
Kotick, Lilly, Resolution come to mind...and what else?
There are another even larger group of planked boats that I cannot
explain well, but which seem to fall into the catagory of custom
individual commissions. One common denominator is that he seems to
favor commissions of historical or nostalgic interest, such
as "Swallow" patterned after Arthur Ransoms books. Viking Longship,
Schuyt Houseboat, Scow Schooner, or "Rose" are other examples.
Another common denominator are boats favored by Capt. Nat and
L.Francis Herreshoff.
Perhaps, another group are the "on a dare" experimental types,
Iceboat, Lilly, Wolfpack, Fast Sternwheeler, Proa, Canard, Staysail
Cat, and the early "cutwater designs" like Hawkeye come to mind.
I might have a different answer tomorrow, but today I say that the
epitome of Bolgeresque is Alert, ex Manatee. She has the following
properties:
1) cat yawl rig with sprit boom main
2) leeboards
3) extreme shoal draft with dead flat bottom, wall sides
4) very good looks
5) deficiencies in mechanical advantage
6) scant head room
7) large rig in lieu of light sails
8) mast in tabernacle
9) proven seaworthiness (Atlantic crossings+)
That's a pretty long list of characteristics that suggest she has
the "Bolger Nature."
Other candidates would be Black Skimmer and the Folding Schooner.
Peter
epitome of Bolgeresque is Alert, ex Manatee. She has the following
properties:
1) cat yawl rig with sprit boom main
2) leeboards
3) extreme shoal draft with dead flat bottom, wall sides
4) very good looks
5) deficiencies in mechanical advantage
6) scant head room
7) large rig in lieu of light sails
8) mast in tabernacle
9) proven seaworthiness (Atlantic crossings+)
That's a pretty long list of characteristics that suggest she has
the "Bolger Nature."
Other candidates would be Black Skimmer and the Folding Schooner.
Peter
Bruce & List --
Certainly 'bolgeresque" is a philosophy, and there are many boats of
many shapes that qualify -- even some not designed by Bolger!
What I had in mind is a particular look. When I page through BWAOM
there are certain designs that seem distinctly Bolger merely by the
drawing of the profile. I see the same lines and details over and
over again, even in boats with very different purposes and budgets.
Another clue (to my list): the surf is on it.
YIBB,
David
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
Certainly 'bolgeresque" is a philosophy, and there are many boats of
many shapes that qualify -- even some not designed by Bolger!
What I had in mind is a particular look. When I page through BWAOM
there are certain designs that seem distinctly Bolger merely by the
drawing of the profile. I see the same lines and details over and
over again, even in boats with very different purposes and budgets.
Another clue (to my list): the surf is on it.
YIBB,
David
>> Bolgeresque? Given the range of work PCB has produced, bolgeresqueC.E.P.
>> many of them are not square.)
>
>I'll rise to this bait.
>
>My recent pleasant experience building a bastard Bolger Kotick,
>beautifully curved out of wood strips, causes me to question my
>preferences among Phil Bolgers design styles.
>
>Previously, coming from more or less a construction background, I
>understood plywood and found that the boxy boats appealed to me the
>most.
>
>But now, that I can envision bending wood strips & planks into curvy
>boats; I realize that the appeal to me of the boxy boats [I.E.
>Michalak/Bolger] was simply a limitation of my imagination.
>
>So, my own definition of "bolgeresque" has recently changed. Though
>the part the definition that involves:
>
>1) Questioning the "conventional wisdom."
>2) Tweaking the "narrow-minded racing rules committee".
>3) Preserving th best aspects of traditional boat designs.
>
>These three Bolger values still appeal to me immensely.
>
>Though, I still think that Tortoise is the best, when measured in
>elegant simplicity and suitablility to task. I still laugh at the
>though of a designer meeting this design criteria:
>
>A rugged, compact and capable yacht tender that is ugly enough that
>no one would steal it and cheap enough that if they did you would not
>care.
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
>- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
>- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
>MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
> Bolgeresque? Given the range of work PCB has produced, bolgeresqueI'll rise to this bait.
> many of them are not square.)
My recent pleasant experience building a bastard Bolger Kotick,
beautifully curved out of wood strips, causes me to question my
preferences among Phil Bolgers design styles.
Previously, coming from more or less a construction background, I
understood plywood and found that the boxy boats appealed to me the
most.
But now, that I can envision bending wood strips & planks into curvy
boats; I realize that the appeal to me of the boxy boats [I.E.
Michalak/Bolger] was simply a limitation of my imagination.
So, my own definition of "bolgeresque" has recently changed. Though
the part the definition that involves:
1) Questioning the "conventional wisdom."
2) Tweaking the "narrow-minded racing rules committee".
3) Preserving th best aspects of traditional boat designs.
These three Bolger values still appeal to me immensely.
Though, I still think that Tortoise is the best, when measured in
elegant simplicity and suitablility to task. I still laugh at the
though of a designer meeting this design criteria:
A rugged, compact and capable yacht tender that is ugly enough that
no one would steal it and cheap enough that if they did you would not
care.
>Not Bolger, but they are Bolgeresque.Bolgeresque? Given the range of work PCB has produced, bolgeresque
probably means different things to different people.
I've developed my own sense of Bolger's signature style and have a
list of boats that I think represent it. I'm curious what list of
designs the list think best represent "bolgeresque."
(A hint on my list, many of them are not square.)
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
New York, New York 10001
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
If we're going to beat the subject to death, here's yet another
option.
http://www.solwaydory.fsnet.co.uk/plans/index.htm
"Solway Dory" in the UK sells plans for two stitch-and-glue decked
sailing canoes designed by John Bull. One is 13' long, the other
16'. Not Bolger, but they are Bolgeresque. I have plans for the 16-
footer (purchased from Lost in the Woods Boatworks in Canada), and
I'll be darned if the hull isn't a stretched version of the 13'
Bolger "canoe" sold by Dynamite. The 13-footer is probably all but
identical to Bolger's canoe, with a deck and sailing rig added.
Steve Paskey
option.
http://www.solwaydory.fsnet.co.uk/plans/index.htm
"Solway Dory" in the UK sells plans for two stitch-and-glue decked
sailing canoes designed by John Bull. One is 13' long, the other
16'. Not Bolger, but they are Bolgeresque. I have plans for the 16-
footer (purchased from Lost in the Woods Boatworks in Canada), and
I'll be darned if the hull isn't a stretched version of the 13'
Bolger "canoe" sold by Dynamite. The 13-footer is probably all but
identical to Bolger's canoe, with a deck and sailing rig added.
Steve Paskey
--- In bolger@y..., "futabachan" <futabachan@y...> wrote:
> Just to absolutely beat the subject of portageable thin-water
> sailboats to death, I ran across an "open source" PCB design
> for a 12' sailing pirogue.> --
> Susan Davis <futabachan@y...>
Just to absolutely beat the subject of portageable thin-water
sailboats to death, I ran across an "open source" PCB design
for a 12' sailing pirogue. One source calls it "obnoxiously
tender," the other has sailed it for years and has lots of
ideas for little tweaks.
Does anyone here have experience with this design? It doesn't
look like it has much stowage space on board, but the cockpit
is 6' or so from the aft end to the steering pedals, and I
suppose I could stow my gear behind me underway and set it on
the fantail to sleep....
-- Sue --
(or there's the "wheelbarrow boat" in Chappelle's _Boatbuilding_)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
sailboats to death, I ran across an "open source" PCB design
for a 12' sailing pirogue. One source calls it "obnoxiously
tender," the other has sailed it for years and has lots of
ideas for little tweaks.
Does anyone here have experience with this design? It doesn't
look like it has much stowage space on board, but the cockpit
is 6' or so from the aft end to the steering pedals, and I
suppose I could stow my gear behind me underway and set it on
the fantail to sleep....
-- Sue --
(or there's the "wheelbarrow boat" in Chappelle's _Boatbuilding_)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>