East Coast vs. West Coast
>The real reason of my conversation with SA was her responding to myPrior to the construction of my teal, all of my boating experience
>question whether Champlain is suitable for westcoast use, I.E.
>offshore passages, crossing the Columbia Bar, etc.. Her answer [and
>I may be mis-paraphrasing her] was that they do not recommend
>Champlain because of it's excess windage to power ratio. The
>Champlain is more suited for eastcoast ICW use. She suggested
>something with more power, perhaps a Dakota. Optionally, if added
>safety factor is desired, with modifications including the use a
>Deutz air cooled diesel engine and other offshore upgrades.
was on the West coast. Not surprisingly my ideas of a get the job
done boat looked a lot like George Beuhler designs. In San Diego your
options jump from day sailing to sailing to Hawaii with precious
little in between. In Oregon, even day sailing can take on heroic
proportions.
Finally comprehending the almost limitless near shore and inshore
boating opportunities that the East Coast has to offer has been, if
you'll pardon the pun, a sea change in my outlook on what's possible.
I do wish the surf was a little more consistent here. Oh well, you
can't have everything.
Bruce, if you build the Illinois, I'll fly out and help.
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
because believing a dream is better than not.
The real reason of my conversation with SA was her responding to my
question whether Champlain is suitable for westcoast use, I.E.
offshore passages, crossing the Columbia Bar, etc.. Her answer [and
I may be mis-paraphrasing her] was that they do not recommend
Champlain because of it's excess windage to power ratio. The
Champlain is more suited for eastcoast ICW use. She suggested
something with more power, perhaps a Dakota. Optionally, if added
safety factor is desired, with modifications including the use a
Deutz air cooled diesel engine and other offshore upgrades.
The Dakota *is* a nice looking boat!
> Christmas present! ;-)I believed in Santa and the Easter Bunny well into my teen years
because believing a dream is better than not.
The real reason of my conversation with SA was her responding to my
question whether Champlain is suitable for westcoast use, I.E.
offshore passages, crossing the Columbia Bar, etc.. Her answer [and
I may be mis-paraphrasing her] was that they do not recommend
Champlain because of it's excess windage to power ratio. The
Champlain is more suited for eastcoast ICW use. She suggested
something with more power, perhaps a Dakota. Optionally, if added
safety factor is desired, with modifications including the use a
Deutz air cooled diesel engine and other offshore upgrades.
The Dakota *is* a nice looking boat!
>> --- In bolger@y..., "Sal's Dad" <sals_dad@b...> wrote:Bruce, you don't get it! The point is *not* to talk to PCB&F! Now the
>> maybe the keel is hollow
>
>I just spoke with Susan Altenberger who says that yes, the keel fin
>is hollow with arms inside.
thread is dead! Now we know what's in the Christmas present! ;-)
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
> --- In bolger@y..., "Sal's Dad" <sals_dad@b...> wrote:I just spoke with Susan Altenberger who says that yes, the keel fin
> maybe the keel is hollow
is hollow with arms inside.
--- In bolger@y..., "Sal's Dad" <sals_dad@b...> wrote:
better than a flat plate for several reasons, including increased
lateral strength from giving the fin more width at the forward pivot
point. Looking at the PCB sketch published in MAIB [I need a
magnifying glass], the width drawn cannot be more than a few inches,
maybe six.
> maybe the keel is hollow, with the wing geometry controlled by anYes, this seems like what I have been missing. A hollow fin would be
better than a flat plate for several reasons, including increased
lateral strength from giving the fin more width at the forward pivot
point. Looking at the PCB sketch published in MAIB [I need a
magnifying glass], the width drawn cannot be more than a few inches,
maybe six.
> You could also make the arms more streamlineI am very sure the design does not call for the lifting arms to be
> perhaps by shaping them, or by making them out of rods instead of
> flatbars.
out in the slipstream, but I would point out anyway that the flat
bars would have much less drag than round bars of equivalent tensile
strength. A circular cross section is one of the worst shapes,
dragwise. The drag on a round mast and on the round wires of the
rigging is probably 10 times the drag on proper foil shapes.
Peter
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
perhaps by shaping them, or by making them out of rods instead of
flatbars. I imagine the blade made from 1" thick flat steel plate,
and the leading and trailing edges could/should be faired.
--- In bolger@y..., "porcupinefysh" <porcupine@d...> wrote
allowing the pivot pin holes to be cast-in-place steel pipe instead
of drilling. Another advantage would be with the steel as a unit,
one zinc anode would do. You still would want to rinse the salt off
when taking the boat out of the water.
Regarding casting the lead, does anybody recall the article [MAIB?]
of the home made bunsen burner using two nestled steel pipe "end
caps"? I can't remember the details, but I recall that it seemed
like a good idea for heating a lot of lead.
> I read it to mean that both the wings and theYes, I agree with you. You could also make the arms more streamline
> blade of the keel were "carefully foil shaped."
perhaps by shaping them, or by making them out of rods instead of
flatbars. I imagine the blade made from 1" thick flat steel plate,
and the leading and trailing edges could/should be faired.
--- In bolger@y..., "porcupinefysh" <porcupine@d...> wrote
> weld the wing up out of steel and use that asI think this is a great idea! It would also have the advantage of
> the crucible for melting the lead, right in place.
allowing the pivot pin holes to be cast-in-place steel pipe instead
of drilling. Another advantage would be with the steel as a unit,
one zinc anode would do. You still would want to rinse the salt off
when taking the boat out of the water.
Regarding casting the lead, does anybody recall the article [MAIB?]
of the home made bunsen burner using two nestled steel pipe "end
caps"? I can't remember the details, but I recall that it seemed
like a good idea for heating a lot of lead.
--- In bolger@y..., "Harry W. James" <welshman@p...> wrote:
> You guys are like a bunch of kids at Christmas
Yep, I can't wait to see the details of PCB's design!
emmm. If the floils are pulling you down, what happends when you are
running wing in wing before a 30 knot wind, trying to surf down a
wave at 18 knots? Wouldn't they slow you down? <grin>
running wing in wing before a 30 knot wind, trying to surf down a
wave at 18 knots? Wouldn't they slow you down? <grin>
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
>
> >> keel blade being "carefully foil shape."
> >
> >His point was that the foil should be "upside down" holding the
boat
> >down in the water better. I think he is humored that some other
> >designers placed their foils the other way around.
> >
> >>Wouldn't those arms hanging down tend to defeat that?
> >
> >No not the foil, but the arms would cause drag to your forward
> >motion, but that can't be avoided I suspect.
>
> At the risk of sounding down right talmudic, the full line reads:
>
> "It's a steel fabrication with lead wings at the bottom, both
> carefully foil shaped."
>
> From a strictly grammatical reading, both refers only to the
wings.
> However since the idea that perhaps only one of the wings would be
> foil shaped is absurd, I read it to mean that both the wings and
the
> blade of the keel were "carefully foil shaped."
>
> Can anyone (besides the master himself) offer any insight?
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
>
>
>
> C.E.P.
> 415 W.46th Street
> New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
> (212) 247-0296
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
application of zinc anodes is the stabilizing factor. Glen-L uses the
technique on several designs. See "Maddog" McBride's site for his
solution to a keel plug that never made him happy:
<http://www.nauticalfollies.com/whazzup.htm>. This could be a
solution to I60's keel--weld the wing up out of steel and use that as
the crucible for melting the lead, right in place. You could do it at
home, saving yourselves a lot of dough. Check with Bolger, but I
think this could be an economic, safe and simple dodge. You will note
that Maddog got his lead for seven cents a pound. When I built my
Gunkholer, I got 1200 lbs of lead from a scrap dealer for twenty-one
cents a pound.
casting is a wash. Iron is the cheaper material, but requires higher
temps and more elaborate equipment to produce.
>...Is contactLead to mild steel can be a problem, but it is often done. Thoughtful
> of steel to lead an electrolysis issue? Probably yes. Pig iron to
> steel probably also has an electrolysis problem....
application of zinc anodes is the stabilizing factor. Glen-L uses the
technique on several designs. See "Maddog" McBride's site for his
solution to a keel plug that never made him happy:
<http://www.nauticalfollies.com/whazzup.htm>. This could be a
solution to I60's keel--weld the wing up out of steel and use that as
the crucible for melting the lead, right in place. You could do it at
home, saving yourselves a lot of dough. Check with Bolger, but I
think this could be an economic, safe and simple dodge. You will note
that Maddog got his lead for seven cents a pound. When I built my
Gunkholer, I got 1200 lbs of lead from a scrap dealer for twenty-one
cents a pound.
>...Though from the earlier estimate, creating the mold seemed to bethe
> greatest cost, not the cost of metal. Plus, I don't know if themelts
> foundry costs of pig iron are different than lead. They probably
> are, with pig iron requiring a blast furnace 1,170 C where lead
> at only 327 C....Generally, the cost difference of a lead casting versus an iron
casting is a wash. Iron is the cheaper material, but requires higher
temps and more elaborate equipment to produce.
> You guys are like a bunch of kids at Christmas, shaking a squeezingDear Santa Phil,
> one of the wrapped presents, trying to guess what's really in it. I
> bet you will be really glad when the actual package arrives from
> PCB and friends.
I have been a very good girl this year. Please bring me a reeeeeeally
big schooner. And a pony.
-- Sue --
(glad that this package has "to Sue" written on the tag :-) )
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> Might it be cheaper inNo. Absolutely not. Especially since I just bought the "large
> the long run to have it hauled by a professional, thereby bypassing
> the cost and licensing for a large vehicle and trailer?
vehicle" in question for absolutely dirt cheap.
But the whole point, for me, of the I60 rather than some other
design is the ability to launch and recover it from an otherwise
unimproved boat ramp, because the lake where it's going to be a
floating vacation cottage has no travelift, let alone one big
enough to handle an I60-sized vessel. The I60 needs to be
shifted fairly routinely between this lake, Lake Ontario, and
an assortment of schooner regattas on the East Coast. And to
Florida for cruising in the Bahamas during Rochester winters. :-)
-- Sue --
(who'd be asking PCB for that Age of Sail gunboat instead of the
I60 if I didn't need trailer capacity)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
As I have mentioned before, I really don't like outboards.
I installed a Mercruiser in my Oregon Dory variation in place of an
outboard and was very happy with it. I like the car engine as a power
head, it is just an old GM 4 cylinder, and you can get all the parts you
want for it from any NAPA. I had a Volvo 280 out drive with a Chevy
small block 350 on it for a larger fish boat. I really liked the Volvo
outdrive, very easy to work on, I could change one in 20-30 minutes.
You can often buy Volvo and Mercruiser 4 Cylinder take outs with low
hours from people who find that they won't push their fiberglass barges
as fast as they want to go so they upgrade to a larger model.
You probably don't want to waste the time in development, but how about
a take out from a Junkyard hooked up to the DBD drive from Australia
http://www.dbdmarine.com/
You could make a bobtail assembly up using Ken Hankinson's Installing
Inboard Engines for guidance.
You would keep the shallow draft and really save some money.
HJ
I installed a Mercruiser in my Oregon Dory variation in place of an
outboard and was very happy with it. I like the car engine as a power
head, it is just an old GM 4 cylinder, and you can get all the parts you
want for it from any NAPA. I had a Volvo 280 out drive with a Chevy
small block 350 on it for a larger fish boat. I really liked the Volvo
outdrive, very easy to work on, I could change one in 20-30 minutes.
You can often buy Volvo and Mercruiser 4 Cylinder take outs with low
hours from people who find that they won't push their fiberglass barges
as fast as they want to go so they upgrade to a larger model.
You probably don't want to waste the time in development, but how about
a take out from a Junkyard hooked up to the DBD drive from Australia
http://www.dbdmarine.com/
You could make a bobtail assembly up using Ken Hankinson's Installing
Inboard Engines for guidance.
You would keep the shallow draft and really save some money.
HJ
>
> Abosolute only unfinished business is deciding on a 130 HP
> Mercruser sterndrive or stay with the T50 Yamaha.
>
> Both the same price, the outboard is easier to install, easier
> on fuel, while the 130HP has a nice alternator and more cruising
> speed.
>
> Anybody out there have any experience on the durability of the
> sterndrives in salt water?
>
> Jeff
>
>> keel blade being "carefully foil shape."At the risk of sounding down right talmudic, the full line reads:
>
>His point was that the foil should be "upside down" holding the boat
>down in the water better. I think he is humored that some other
>designers placed their foils the other way around.
>
>>Wouldn't those arms hanging down tend to defeat that?
>
>No not the foil, but the arms would cause drag to your forward
>motion, but that can't be avoided I suspect.
"It's a steel fabrication with lead wings at the bottom, both
carefully foil shaped."
From a strictly grammatical reading, both refers only to the wings.
However since the idea that perhaps only one of the wings would be
foil shaped is absurd, I read it to mean that both the wings and the
blade of the keel were "carefully foil shaped."
Can anyone (besides the master himself) offer any insight?
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
You guys are like a bunch of kids at Christmas, shaking a squeezing one
of the wrapped presents, trying to guess what's really in it. I bet you
will be really glad when the actual package arrives from PCB and
friends.
HJ
of the wrapped presents, trying to guess what's really in it. I bet you
will be really glad when the actual package arrives from PCB and
friends.
HJ
> At the risk of sounding down right talmudic, the full line reads:
>
> "It's a steel fabrication with lead wings at the bottom, both
> carefully foil shaped."
>
> From a strictly grammatical reading, both refers only to the wings.
> However since the idea that perhaps only one of the wings would be
> foil shaped is absurd, I read it to mean that both the wings and the
> blade of the keel were "carefully foil shaped."
>
> Can anyone (besides the master himself) offer any insight?
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
Susan Alt. made mention of sterndrives in salt water having a
tendancy to get growths in the water intakes and such causing
problems on an annual basis. My thoughts are that if it's back
and forth from salt to fresh water the growths will have a
tendancy to die and stay fairly clean.
All this comes from the fact that few sterndrives are capable
of being lifted clear of the water.
Mileage is based on HP that is being matched to a prop/boat
combination. It'll take some doing to get a prop sized
properly to the gear ratios and normal hull speeds. I would go
with the high altitude option of a 2.4 gear ratio so a bigger
prop can be turned. Penalizes in higher speeds but good for
the idling around stuff.
More research is needed thats for sure. I do like the idea of
more HP for the same money compared to a outboard plus the high
output alternator. I wouldn't have much need for anything else
to keep the batteries charged. Crusing around for several
hours everyday on average would certainly provide all the power
I would normally use.
Any additional help anyone has would really be appreciated.
I'm 6 to 8 months away from having to make the decision.
Jeff
tendancy to get growths in the water intakes and such causing
problems on an annual basis. My thoughts are that if it's back
and forth from salt to fresh water the growths will have a
tendancy to die and stay fairly clean.
All this comes from the fact that few sterndrives are capable
of being lifted clear of the water.
Mileage is based on HP that is being matched to a prop/boat
combination. It'll take some doing to get a prop sized
properly to the gear ratios and normal hull speeds. I would go
with the high altitude option of a 2.4 gear ratio so a bigger
prop can be turned. Penalizes in higher speeds but good for
the idling around stuff.
More research is needed thats for sure. I do like the idea of
more HP for the same money compared to a outboard plus the high
output alternator. I wouldn't have much need for anything else
to keep the batteries charged. Crusing around for several
hours everyday on average would certainly provide all the power
I would normally use.
Any additional help anyone has would really be appreciated.
I'm 6 to 8 months away from having to make the decision.
Jeff
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
Perhaps with a dimension of 2 feet wide by 6 feet long
> with an average thickness of 4 1/4", shaped more like a torpedo?
> Narrowing the width would make the drilling of pivot pin holes
easier
> and give more "meat" at the aft pin.
This seems like a better idea for the reasons you mention. However
would this perhaps interfere with loading the boat onto a trailer?
To me, visualizing loading and unloading without a crane and cradle
would be pretty iffy unless a very well designed trailer was also
constructed. And the cost of that trailer? Might it be cheaper in the
long run to have it hauled by a professional, thereby bypassing the
cost and licensing for a large vehicle and trailer? Then I guess a
fixed keel comes to mind...
Nels, (Where it got to -1 today... actually saw some melt water!)
> His point was that the foil should be "upside down" holding theboat down in the water better.
I would have thought that the question was which way do want the wing
to pull/push the boat when it is well heeled. Personally, I would
have thought that you would want a wing to be neutral horizontally
until leeway gave it an angle of attack, just as a regular keel is
neutral vertically untill leeway....
I assumed that the lifting parts are inside a hydrodynamic fairing.
Peter
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
strength of the pivot pin assembly by increasing the distance between
the "dog ears", welding spacers on the fin part of the keel, perhaps
to 6 inches total (or more). I figure that at a 30 degree angle of
heel, 3000 lbs at 6 feet will cause 18,000lbs of shearing force on
the pin in a 6" pivot assembly. [I could be wrong.] If I see this
correctly, this would require a bolt of 1 1/4 inch diameter for the
pivot pin. And, bigger would be better! Though this kind of thing
is not really that big of a deal for steel fabricators.
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Insolent60/pivot.gif
down in the water better. I think he is humored that some other
designers placed their foils the other way around.
motion, but that can't be avoided I suspect.
> some pretty amazing torque forces at play when you increase theI'm glad PCB is designing this not me. You could increase the
> dimension to 6+ feet and the weight to 3000lbs.
strength of the pivot pin assembly by increasing the distance between
the "dog ears", welding spacers on the fin part of the keel, perhaps
to 6 inches total (or more). I figure that at a 30 degree angle of
heel, 3000 lbs at 6 feet will cause 18,000lbs of shearing force on
the pin in a 6" pivot assembly. [I could be wrong.] If I see this
correctly, this would require a bolt of 1 1/4 inch diameter for the
pivot pin. And, bigger would be better! Though this kind of thing
is not really that big of a deal for steel fabricators.
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Insolent60/pivot.gif
> keel blade being "carefully foil shape."His point was that the foil should be "upside down" holding the boat
down in the water better. I think he is humored that some other
designers placed their foils the other way around.
>Wouldn't those arms hanging down tend to defeat that?No not the foil, but the arms would cause drag to your forward
motion, but that can't be avoided I suspect.
>--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:I'm not an engineer, I don't even play one on TV, but even I can see
>> If you have a better idea than that, I'd love to see a sketch.
>
>Actually, after scratching my head, M.C. Escher comes to mind...
>
>http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Insolent60/iso.gif
>
that if this is how this keel goes together, there are going to be
some pretty amazing torque forces at play when you increase the
dimension to 6+ feet and the weight to 3000lbs.
Also, PCB makes a point about the keel blade being "carefully foil
shape." Wouldn't those arms hanging down tend to defeat that?
The plot thickens!
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
>Anybody out there have any experience on the durability of theJeff --
>sterndrives in salt water?
>
The fishboat my father and I ran had was powered by a volvopenta I/O.
She was in the water for 3 years straight, then trailer boated for
anther two. We were fastidious about the zincs and other
maintenances. No problem. Not one.
Your milage may vary.
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Insolent60/iso.gif
...is a sketch of my guess of the geometry. I still have concerns
about the strength of the main forward pivot point. Also, the
PCB "wing keel" sketch in the Bolger Group Files section includes
some extraneous lines which I can't figure out, that must be
reinforcement angles, and/or hoisting cables. I bet that PCB is
currently refining and revising the whole mechanism.
A couple months back I posted my scribbles on the PCB sketch...
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Insolent60/wingkeel.jpg
> If you have a better idea than that, I'd love to see a sketch.Actually, after scratching my head, M.C. Escher comes to mind...
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Insolent60/iso.gif
...is a sketch of my guess of the geometry. I still have concerns
about the strength of the main forward pivot point. Also, the
PCB "wing keel" sketch in the Bolger Group Files section includes
some extraneous lines which I can't figure out, that must be
reinforcement angles, and/or hoisting cables. I bet that PCB is
currently refining and revising the whole mechanism.
A couple months back I posted my scribbles on the PCB sketch...
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Insolent60/wingkeel.jpg
> everywhere, but you're preaching to the choir about I60s andExcepting a unforseen problem, my wife and I intend on visiting
> Wyomings in the same water....
Dave in NY with our Wyo. Susan Alt. discussed seeing the Wyo
should we get anywere near them too. They where disappointed
when they found out about a AS29 near them had been sold and
hauled away. They've yet to see a finished AS29. Obviously
same for the Wyo.
Our start date is set for 5/1/2002 for the Wyoming. The trailer
is nearly done. Deposits down on the lumber. Will order a 30
Gal Epoxy kit from Raka next week.
Abosolute only unfinished business is deciding on a 130 HP
Mercruser sterndrive or stay with the T50 Yamaha.
Both the same price, the outboard is easier to install, easier
on fuel, while the 130HP has a nice alternator and more cruising
speed.
Anybody out there have any experience on the durability of the
sterndrives in salt water?
Jeff
> Won't it be something to see a picture of my I60 going 8After our long phone converation, I have no doubt this will
> knots,
> throwing spray everywhere and your Wyo keeping station with
> barely a ripple!
happen.
Jeff
> Won't it be something to see a picture of my I60 going 8 knots,I don't think that the I60 is going to wind up throwing spray
> throwing spray everywhere and your Wyo keeping station with barely a
> ripple!
everywhere, but you're preaching to the choir about I60s and
Wyomings in the same water....
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> I don't think that width will be the problem, see:Oh! Between that and the better-quality scan in the other picture
>
>http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Insolent60/Keel.gif
on your site, I think I understand how it all fits together a bit
better now. Thanks!
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
>Granted the Dakota would have been easier and more economicalYes indeed there it. Long before I even considered the notion that
>than the Wyo, and has about the same living space, but something
>about the Wyoming.......
what I really needed (or wanted) was a power boat I was captivated by
this boat. I must have read the chapter in BWAOM a hundred times. To
my mind, the I60 shares a lot in common with the Wyo. They both
provide their accommodations by putting a standing headroom
amidships, then make it beautiful by draing long, low lines out both
ends. What an elegant way to make the box in the middle look graceful!
Won't it be something to see a picture of my I60 going 8 knots,
throwing spray everywhere and your Wyo keeping station with barely a
ripple!
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
>Here is a sketch of what I suggest:Bruce --
I have to confess I'm a loss to understand how the entire mechanism
works. I understand the front pivot must go to the leading edge of
keel, and I'm guessing that the aft pivot attaches to whatever lifts
the thing.
If you have a better idea than that, I'd love to see a sketch.
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Insolent60/AltKeel.gif
> Perhaps with a dimension of 2 feet wide by 6 feet longHere is a sketch of what I suggest:
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Insolent60/AltKeel.gif
>> Pattern/mold creation: $3K-$4KThis is just the wing. But there are some savings that can be
>> Casting: $1.5/pound
>> Total cost: $6K-$7K per keel
>
>Urk. We ought to be able to do a *lot* better than that, either
>from competitors or by doing some or all of it ourselves.
>
>> This price includes finishing and epoxy painting.
>
>Does it include the keel fin, or just the wings? And presumably
>the hydraulics and other lifting fittings are extra?
realized pretty easily.
The patter could be made from foam or wood or whatever. Mars has a
few "do it this ways" but nothing difficult. They're rep says they do
it all the time, and this design seems well suited to a DIY pattern.
That leaves the casting at about $1.5/pound.
I don't know about you, but the prospect of working with 3000lbs of
molten lead is decidedly unappealing. Add to that that you don't get
lead for $.25/pound until you start buying it by the 100s of tons. So
forget $750 for the lead, it's going to be more like $1500 plus
shipping. Add to that number that once you've cast the damn thing you
still have to finish it. The mars price includes and industrial epoxy
finish. Add to that you have to move it. I don't know about any of
you, but I don't have a forklift. $1.5/pound starts to look pretty
good.
I'll be the first to admit, the idea of putting a $7000 keel assembly
on a $5000 hull doesn't seem quite right, and my (fearful) mind has
already concocted several "ingenious" ways to get around it. I think
the trick with any of Bolger's "dream machines" is to figure out
where to shop at Home Depot and where to "do it right." $1080 for 60
sheets of 1/2" ACX vs. $2280 for 1/2" MDO vs. $3900 for okume,
$85/bucket for porch paint vs. $85/gallon for interlux. I can
certainly see how once you've plunked down $7K for a keel, you
wouldn't want to spoil your effort by using ACX or porch paint.
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
--- In bolger@y..., "futabachan" <futabachan@y...> wrote:
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Insolent60/Keel.gif
...for a sketch I drew up. This assumes a plan view dimension of 3
feet wide by 5 feet long. This actually might be OK to enlarge to 4
feet by 6 feet and still fit between the trailer wheels. In either
case, the density of cast iron is great enough to provide for an
adaquate thickness to accomodate the crosswise pivot pin holes.
If anything, the vertical thickness at the aft pivot pin seems to be
the controling factor. I am curious about the diameter of the pivot
pins, with 1" seeming to be an intuitive guess. If so, the minimum
thickness would seem to need to be 3". [1" below + 1" dia +1"
above] Getting 3" at the aft pivot pin would be tough with an
overall average thickness of 3 1/2" on a "wing" shape.
Also, drilling out the pivot pin holes doesn't seem fun. Is contact
of steel to lead an electrolysis issue? Probably yes. Pig iron to
steel probably also has an electrolysis problem.
Though from the earlier estimate, creating the mold seemed to be the
greatest cost, not the cost of metal. Plus, I don't know if the
foundry costs of pig iron are different than lead. They probably
are, with pig iron requiring a blast furnace 1,170 C where lead melts
at only 327 C.
Also, lead is ductile and cast iron is brittle, which seems to favor
the lead. Perhaps with a dimension of 2 feet wide by 6 feet long
with an average thickness of 4 1/4", shaped more like a torpedo?
Narrowing the width would make the drilling of pivot pin holes easier
and give more "meat" at the aft pin.
> I'm not sure how much larger we can make the wingspan and stillI don't think that width will be the problem, see:
> have the keel fit between the trailer wheels; it's pretty wide
> as it is. > Susan Davis <futabachan@y...>
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Insolent60/Keel.gif
...for a sketch I drew up. This assumes a plan view dimension of 3
feet wide by 5 feet long. This actually might be OK to enlarge to 4
feet by 6 feet and still fit between the trailer wheels. In either
case, the density of cast iron is great enough to provide for an
adaquate thickness to accomodate the crosswise pivot pin holes.
If anything, the vertical thickness at the aft pivot pin seems to be
the controling factor. I am curious about the diameter of the pivot
pins, with 1" seeming to be an intuitive guess. If so, the minimum
thickness would seem to need to be 3". [1" below + 1" dia +1"
above] Getting 3" at the aft pivot pin would be tough with an
overall average thickness of 3 1/2" on a "wing" shape.
Also, drilling out the pivot pin holes doesn't seem fun. Is contact
of steel to lead an electrolysis issue? Probably yes. Pig iron to
steel probably also has an electrolysis problem.
Though from the earlier estimate, creating the mold seemed to be the
greatest cost, not the cost of metal. Plus, I don't know if the
foundry costs of pig iron are different than lead. They probably
are, with pig iron requiring a blast furnace 1,170 C where lead melts
at only 327 C.
Also, lead is ductile and cast iron is brittle, which seems to favor
the lead. Perhaps with a dimension of 2 feet wide by 6 feet long
with an average thickness of 4 1/4", shaped more like a torpedo?
Narrowing the width would make the drilling of pivot pin holes easier
and give more "meat" at the aft pin.
> You might even consider giving your keel a larger wingspan and makeI'm not sure how much larger we can make the wingspan and still
> it out of cast iron.
have the keel fit between the trailer wheels; it's pretty wide
as it is.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
I want to second the idea of carving the pattern yourself out of
foam. I made three complicated patterns for three tooling castings
that totaled 5,000 pounds of cast iron out of 2" beadboard and white
glue. I put scrap with water in a blender, drained the crumbs and
made a foam putty with the white glue to fillet the inside corners.
Some surform tools an a steak kife can do much of the work. It took
me less than a week. Those castings were made onto a metal forming
tool 23 years ago and it's still popping out parts today in a 400 ton
hydraulic press.
And for precision, both the aluminum head and the cast iron block on
my Saturn are "lost foam" castings. Look under the hood of one. They
have a pebble grain finish, just like a coffee cup.
See what some of the foundries quote you if you supply that kind of
pattern. It's stunningly easy to use. No draft angle required since
the pattern just sits there and vanishes in a puff of flaming vapor
when the metal is poured.
You might even consider giving your keel a larger wingspan and make
it out of cast iron. The foam doesn't care, and it would be
electrolyticly similar to the linkages in the rest of your keel.
Dick Pilz
foam. I made three complicated patterns for three tooling castings
that totaled 5,000 pounds of cast iron out of 2" beadboard and white
glue. I put scrap with water in a blender, drained the crumbs and
made a foam putty with the white glue to fillet the inside corners.
Some surform tools an a steak kife can do much of the work. It took
me less than a week. Those castings were made onto a metal forming
tool 23 years ago and it's still popping out parts today in a 400 ton
hydraulic press.
And for precision, both the aluminum head and the cast iron block on
my Saturn are "lost foam" castings. Look under the hood of one. They
have a pebble grain finish, just like a coffee cup.
See what some of the foundries quote you if you supply that kind of
pattern. It's stunningly easy to use. No draft angle required since
the pattern just sits there and vanishes in a puff of flaming vapor
when the metal is poured.
You might even consider giving your keel a larger wingspan and make
it out of cast iron. The foam doesn't care, and it would be
electrolyticly similar to the linkages in the rest of your keel.
Dick Pilz
--- In bolger@y..., "John Bell" <jmbell@m...> wrote:
> I would think hogging a pattern out of something like foam or even
wood
> would be an easy enough project for you to tackle yourself. The
> patternmaking has got to be a large component of the $3-4K worth of
mold
> making. Have you considered doing at least that part of the job
yourself?
>
> JB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Ryan" <david@c...>
> To: <bolger@y...>
> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 9:58 AM
> Subject: [bolger] I60 Wing Keel
>
>
> | FBBB --
> |
> | I just got off the phone with Mars Metal and have some ballpark
> | numbers for the lead wing.
> |
> | Pattern/mold creation: $3K-$4K
> |
> | Casting: $1.5/pound
> |
> | Total cost: $6K-$7K per keel
> |
> | This price includes finishing and epoxy painting.
> |
> | Shipping to Rochester: about $350
> |
> | New York: about $500
> |
> | YIBB,
> |
> | David
> |
> | C.E.P.
> | 415 W.46th Street
> | New York, New York 10036
> |http://www.crumblingempire.com
> | (212) 247-0296
> |
> |
> | Bolger rules!!!
> | - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> | - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> | - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
like
> | - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> | - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> |
> | Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> |
> |
> Total cost: $6K-$7K per keelIf you want another bid, you can try here. I don't know about them;
just stumbled across them.
http://www.metalico.com/ingots.htm
Peter
> Pattern/mold creation: $3K-$4KUrk. We ought to be able to do a *lot* better than that, either
> Casting: $1.5/pound
> Total cost: $6K-$7K per keel
from competitors or by doing some or all of it ourselves.
> This price includes finishing and epoxy painting.Does it include the keel fin, or just the wings? And presumably
the hydraulics and other lifting fittings are extra?
-- Sue --
(but at least I found a good deal on a used Suburban)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
This is but one of the reasons my wife and I have opted for the
Wyo rather than a sailing vessel. It's the cruise for us, not
the method.
Of course there will always be an exception, but when it comes
to liveaboards for the ICW and Coastal, low speed powerboats are
the most economical thing that can be built and operated. Very
little if any sailing actually happens on the ICW.
Granted the Dakota would have been easier and more economical
than the Wyo, and has about the same living space, but something
about the Wyoming.......
Jeff
Wyo rather than a sailing vessel. It's the cruise for us, not
the method.
Of course there will always be an exception, but when it comes
to liveaboards for the ICW and Coastal, low speed powerboats are
the most economical thing that can be built and operated. Very
little if any sailing actually happens on the ICW.
Granted the Dakota would have been easier and more economical
than the Wyo, and has about the same living space, but something
about the Wyoming.......
Jeff
I would think hogging a pattern out of something like foam or even wood
would be an easy enough project for you to tackle yourself. The
patternmaking has got to be a large component of the $3-4K worth of mold
making. Have you considered doing at least that part of the job yourself?
JB
would be an easy enough project for you to tackle yourself. The
patternmaking has got to be a large component of the $3-4K worth of mold
making. Have you considered doing at least that part of the job yourself?
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ryan" <david@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 9:58 AM
Subject: [bolger] I60 Wing Keel
| FBBB --
|
| I just got off the phone with Mars Metal and have some ballpark
| numbers for the lead wing.
|
| Pattern/mold creation: $3K-$4K
|
| Casting: $1.5/pound
|
| Total cost: $6K-$7K per keel
|
| This price includes finishing and epoxy painting.
|
| Shipping to Rochester: about $350
|
| New York: about $500
|
| YIBB,
|
| David
|
| C.E.P.
| 415 W.46th Street
| New York, New York 10036
|http://www.crumblingempire.com
| (212) 247-0296
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
| - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
| - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|
FBBB --
I just got off the phone with Mars Metal and have some ballpark
numbers for the lead wing.
Pattern/mold creation: $3K-$4K
Casting: $1.5/pound
Total cost: $6K-$7K per keel
This price includes finishing and epoxy painting.
Shipping to Rochester: about $350
New York: about $500
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
I just got off the phone with Mars Metal and have some ballpark
numbers for the lead wing.
Pattern/mold creation: $3K-$4K
Casting: $1.5/pound
Total cost: $6K-$7K per keel
This price includes finishing and epoxy painting.
Shipping to Rochester: about $350
New York: about $500
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
Looking athttp://www.hallman.org/bolger/Insolent60/wingkeel.jpg, I think
maybe the keel is hollow, with the wing geometry controlled by an INTERNAL
strut. (the line marked "what is this line?" is the transition from
hollow to solid)
I would think about having the whole thing fabricated in steel, either with
massive steel on the bottom, or a hollow wing, to be filled with lead. Using wheel weights, you could just dump them in, and fill the spaces with epoxy, cement, or whatever.
Curtis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
maybe the keel is hollow, with the wing geometry controlled by an INTERNAL
strut. (the line marked "what is this line?" is the transition from
hollow to solid)
I would think about having the whole thing fabricated in steel, either with
massive steel on the bottom, or a hollow wing, to be filled with lead. Using wheel weights, you could just dump them in, and fill the spaces with epoxy, cement, or whatever.
Curtis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]