Re: [bolger] Re: Making the "Birdsmouth"

I would have thought it was more cost and trouble than
wraping in visqueen, and throwing on the shop vac.

--- roger99a <roger99a@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
Has anyone thought to use automotive hose clamps to
hold a 
birdsmouth mast together after gluing? 
 
Roger S 
 
--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman"
<brucehallman@y...> wrote:

> For holding the thing round during the set up I

would try some

> plywood jigs cut with a jigsaw to match the

facets of the mast. 
 
</tt>

 



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For small sticks the all time easiest way is to use a wrap of waxed
twine IF you're using epoxy for glue-up, which you certainly should
be...

Start at the bottom and work your way up, and the mast will almost
fall into place, literally. Shake it a little bit as you go. The
hardest part is fitting the pieces at the bottom, where you start,
and that too goes togehter ridiculously easy if your roll them up
like sticky dough on a rolling pin. Size your rolling pin right,
anything cylindrical of approx. the right diameter will do--and don't
leave it in the mast by mistake!

One that first few inches is fitted--don't worry about the rest--hose
clamp it and start wrapping the mast with twine. Hand-tight is fine,
about three inches or so, more or less, between wraps, all the way up
the mast. If you use hose clamps you risk overtightening/starving
wood of epoxy locally. Epoxy doesn't need or like pressure. You just
need to hold the pieces in close proximity--that all...

John O'Neill

-- In bolger@y..., "roger99a" <roger99a@h...> wrote:

> Has anyone thought to use automotive hose clamps to hold a
> birdsmouth mast together after gluing?
>
> Roger S
>
> --- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
> > For holding the thing round during the set up I would try some
> > plywood jigs cut with a jigsaw to match the facets of the mast.

Has anyone thought to use automotive hose clamps to hold a
birdsmouth mast together after gluing?

Roger S

--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
> For holding the thing round during the set up I would try some
> plywood jigs cut with a jigsaw to match the facets of the mast.

Block it at the junction?

I'm not sure of your meaning.

Jeff

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In bolger@y..., "rlspell2000" <richard@s...> wrote:

> You may have a point. Not sure how a rip fence would work with the
> blade tilted thought.

No problem at all! The rip fence attachment is in front of the
cutting edge of the blade by about 2" and all it touches is a flat
perpendicular edge of the board. Set your Skilsaw to 45 degrees and
to half the board depth and let 'er rip. Flip the board side for
side *and* end for end; and repeat. Set it up once carefully, don't
re-adjust it until you are done and you should have some nicely
shaped birdsmouths.

Any minor [or even major] boo-boo's can be filled with thickened
epoxy. You would want to seriously thicken the epoxy anyway to keep
it from dripping while you fit everything up. Actually, per the Raka
instruction manual, for maximum quality, you would first wet the
faces to be glued with unthinned epoxy to penetrate the wood fibers,
and then goop on a layer of thickened epoxy.

For holding the thing round during the set up I would try some
plywood jigs cut with a jigsaw to match the facets of the mast.

A three in. mast can support thousands of pounds in
collum formation. As long as you blocked the juction
with the boom, I don't think there is anything about
the wires that would multiply enough lateral thrust on
the spar to crush it.

--- Jeff Blunck <boatbuilding@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
Seriously though, I'd be interested on how it works
for you Dave. I think Rich Spelling has done a
nice job on his, from what I saw anyway. 
 
Does anyone know if a 3" mast would be strong
enough to lift say 250 lbs. using a 8' boom?
It'll be stayed forward and to each side. I
envision the Wyo's mast being able to fold forward for
bridges. 
 
Jeff 
 
 
[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed] 
 
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- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
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On Fri, 5 Apr 2002, brucehallman wrote:

> I disagree rather strongly, something I learned from a Dynamite Payson
> book [I forget which one]. He argues, and I attest, that with long
> stock it is much easier to bring the saw to the wood that to bring the
> wood to the way.

The day I discovered this, independently, was a very happy day for me.
I wouldn't do it any other way.

I did a quick trial birdsmouth on my tablesaw after reading the Woodenboat
article. It came out pretty darned good, but not perfect, there is a bit of
wiggle - it's hard to get the angles exact by tilting the saw blade, has to
be exactly a 90 degree opening, set at exactly 45 degrees, to get a
perfectly tight 8-part birdsmouth - this was mentioned in that article. I
guess it doesn't have to be perfect, epoxy joints don't have to be tight; I
was more concerned with keeping it round as I was clamping up, so I opted to
spring for the Lee Valley router bit, since I already have a router table
and plenty of fingerboards, but will be short on extra hands come glue-up
time. It takes some doing, but it is possible to set up so that the boards
pass through the router nice and tight, for a perfectly aligned cut, and you
only have to pass it once. The Lee Valley router bit I got would probably
be good up to about 1" or maybe 1-1/4" stock.

Paul Lefebvre

>> A study of other PCB designs suggested the mast diameter might
>> be in the neighborhood of the the Leaboard Catboat or the AS29.
>
>The required strength of the mast depends on at least three major
>factors: the area of the sail, the maximum righting moment of the
>hull, and the weight of the boat. The last is because of stresses
>imposed by inertia. So I would suspect that even if the area of
>Leeboard Catboat or AS-29 sail is the same, the spars would have to
>be stronger.

If I understand this correctly you're saying that when a puff hits a
boat something's got to give; the boat has to heel and/or accelerate
or the mast has break. If the boat won't heel or accelerate rapidly
(righting moment and inertia) then the mast has to be strong enough
to take the strain.

In that case, I'd suspect that 3000lbs wing on a 7 foot lever arm
would dictate a *very* strong mast, especially if the new beam is a
foot wider. No wonder the possibility of running stays has come up!

Look for Sue to have hers planing. I'll be reefed down.

YIBB,

David

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296

> A study of other PCB designs suggested the mast diameter might
> be in the neighborhood of the the Leaboard Catboat or the AS29.

The required strength of the mast depends on at least three major
factors: the area of the sail, the maximum righting moment of the
hull, and the weight of the boat. The last is because of stresses
imposed by inertia. So I would suspect that even if the area of
Leeboard Catboat or AS-29 sail is the same, the spars would have to
be stronger.

Peter

Lee Valley sells router bits designed just for cutting bird's mouth
notches. Don't try using them in a handheld router, make yourself a simple
router table with a fence:

http://www.leevalley.com/

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=45160&category=1%2C33084%2C42917

I don't think it'd be very tricky to set up a table saw to make the cuts. I
think it'd be important to make a wood insert (or buy an expensive one from
Woodcraft or Lee valley) for the blade opening of the saw, then raise the
blade through it for a close fit. That and judicious use of finger boards.

On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:58:52 -0500, David wrote:
> FBBB --
>
> That notch. That little bite. I seem to recall the fellows in the
> Wooden Boat article said it could be done with a tablesaw, but they
> used something different. Something that looked big and expensive.
>
> Would a router with a cone shaped bit and a fence to the trick? Would
> it be better than a tablesaw?
> ...

--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
When I think of the number of disagreeable people that I know have gone
to a better world, I am sure hell won't be so bad at all.

You may have a point. Not sure how a rip fence would work with the
blade tilted thought. Also, might be some issues of holding a long
thing board when trying to cut the birdsmouth. Guess you could cut
the birdsmouth, then cut the strip to size, cut the next birdsmouth,
etc.

--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "porcupinefysh" <porcupine@d...> wrote:
> >A tablesaw is the proper tool for such a job
>
> I disagree rather strongly, something I learned from a Dynamite
> Payson book [I forget which one]. He argues, and I attest, that
with
> long stock it is much easier to bring the saw to the wood that to
> bring the wood to the way.
>
> Get an "adjustable rip fence" for your Skil Saw
>
>http://www.hallman.org/roar/Ripping.jpg
>
> I did, and wow does it work better than trying to awkwardly
manhandle
> a piece of long stock perfectly in alignment with a fence on a
normal
> table saw.
>
> I have ripping guides for both for my big "Mag 77" Skil saw which
is
> handy when I need power...
>
> ...and for my baby Trim Saw 5 1/2" which I love for most all other
> uses because it is so handy to control...
>http://www.skil.com/Products/Tools/Circular+Saws/product.htm?
id=HD5510
>
> I used them to rip up all the battens for my bastard Kotick in
about
> two hours and a cloud of sawdust.

--- In bolger@y..., "porcupinefysh" <porcupine@d...> wrote:

>A tablesaw is the proper tool for such a job

I disagree rather strongly, something I learned from a Dynamite
Payson book [I forget which one]. He argues, and I attest, that with
long stock it is much easier to bring the saw to the wood that to
bring the wood to the way.

Get an "adjustable rip fence" for your Skil Saw

http://www.hallman.org/roar/Ripping.jpg

I did, and wow does it work better than trying to awkwardly manhandle
a piece of long stock perfectly in alignment with a fence on a normal
table saw.

I have ripping guides for both for my big "Mag 77" Skil saw which is
handy when I need power...

...and for my baby Trim Saw 5 1/2" which I love for most all other
uses because it is so handy to control...
http://www.skil.com/Products/Tools/Circular+Saws/product.htm?id=HD5510

I used them to rip up all the battens for my bastard Kotick in about
two hours and a cloud of sawdust.

--- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:

> Seriously though, I'd be interested on how it works for you Dave. I

think Rich Spelling has done a nice job on his, from what I saw
anyway.

>
> Does anyone know if a 3" mast would be strong enough to lift say 250

lbs. using a 8' boom? It'll be stayed forward and to each side. I
envision the Wyo's mast being able to fold forward for bridges.

>
> Jeff
>

Hi Jeff, I'm no technician however it seems most of the load on the
mast is in compression. A stubby 3" mast ought to carry a lot more
than 250# in compression. Tension loads would be worrisome however
since your mast is stayed that should not be a problem since the stays
carry the tension load down to the hull.
Bob Chamberland

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>These are nice bits, but I don't think they would be big enough for
>the bird's mouths on I60's masts. The masts will be between eight and
>ten inches in diameter, making the individual slates around 1.5" to
>2.0" thick. A tablesaw is the proper tool for such a job,

A study of other PCB designs suggested the mast diameter might be in
the neighborhood of the the Leaboard Catboat or the AS29. These boats
both have gaffed mains of nearly the same size as the current size of
the main and fore of the I60. The Leaboard Catboat has a six inch
mast, but fliess no jib. The AS29 flies a jib, but I can't find a
mast dimension for the AS29 size in BWAOM.

The hull of the I60 is undergoing a revision from the drawing in
MAIB. In that iteration the hull is six feet at the chine, but
apparently they've found a way to make it seven without loosing
trailerablity. She'll also have a square stern, rather than the canoe
stern which was a request of the original commission. Certainly this
wider and fuller hull will be stiffer. What, if any, effect this has
on the rig remains to be seen. Buts Sue pointed out during a gab
session the other night, there are limitations imposed by
trailerablity on the spars, so an increase in sail area seems
unlikely.

Suzanne A. did mention they're considering some running rigging as a
precaution against enthusiastic use, no doubt in response to Sue D.'s
lust for speed. With that big lead wing and braced masts, I bet you
could fly full sails until the sea state became unreasonable --
something I expect Sue D. would do whenever given the opportunity. ;-)

YIBB,

David

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296

These are nice bits, but I don't think they would be big enough for
the bird's mouths on I60's masts. The masts will be between eight and
ten inches in diameter, making the individual slates around 1.5" to
2.0" thick. A tablesaw is the proper tool for such a job,

--- In bolger@y..., "James Fuller" <james@p...> wrote:
> Look at this site:
>
>http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?
SID=&ccurrency=2&page=45160&category=
> 1,33084,42917
>
> I just bought a set of these bits. Havn't used them yet
> but they look easy.
>
> James Fuller
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Ryan" <david@c...>
> To: <bolger@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 1:58 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Making the "Birdsmouth"
>
>
> > FBBB --
> >
> > That notch. That little bite. I seem to recall the fellows in the
> > Wooden Boat article said it could be done with a tablesaw, but
they
> > used something different. Something that looked big and expensive.
> >
> > Would a router with a cone shaped bit and a fence to the trick?
Would
> > it be better than a tablesaw?
> >
> > You all have already got me past the scarfing, and the gluing
seems
> > easy. Help me over this hump.
> >
> > YIBB,
> >
> > David
> >
> > C.E.P.
> > 415 W.46th Street
> > New York, New York 10036
> >http://www.crumblingempire.com
> > (212) 247-0296
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
like
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

Look at this site:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=45160&category=
1,33084,42917

I just bought a set of these bits. Havn't used them yet
but they look easy.

James Fuller

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ryan" <david@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 1:58 PM
Subject: [bolger] Making the "Birdsmouth"

> FBBB --
>
> That notch. That little bite. I seem to recall the fellows in the
> Wooden Boat article said it could be done with a tablesaw, but they
> used something different. Something that looked big and expensive.
>
> Would a router with a cone shaped bit and a fence to the trick? Would
> it be better than a tablesaw?
>
> You all have already got me past the scarfing, and the gluing seems
> easy. Help me over this hump.
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
> C.E.P.
> 415 W.46th Street
> New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
> (212) 247-0296
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Seriously though, I'd be interested on how it works for you Dave. I think Rich Spelling has done a nice job on his, from what I saw anyway.

Does anyone know if a 3" mast would be strong enough to lift say 250 lbs. using a 8' boom? It'll be stayed forward and to each side. I envision the Wyo's mast being able to fold forward for bridges.

Jeff

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh, when your done Dave, you can make me a 14' mast for my Wyo. It'll only need to be about 3" in diameter. <grin>

Need one for the center masthead light and a radar dome. Just as well make it strong enough to lift the dingy or a scooter on board too.

:>)

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: rlspell2000
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 3:11 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Making the "Birdsmouth"

Use a tablesaw. Setup a feather board or two to keep it down and
against the fence. Have helpser support then ends as you want the
board there. Not a big deal. The biggest issue will be putting epoxy
in 8 of the those birds mouths notches, 30ft long, before it sets
up....

--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> FBBB --
>
> That notch. That little bite. I seem to recall the fellows in the
> Wooden Boat article said it could be done with a tablesaw, but they
> used something different. Something that looked big and expensive.
>
> Would a router with a cone shaped bit and a fence to the trick?
Would
> it be better than a tablesaw?
>
> You all have already got me past the scarfing, and the gluing seems
> easy. Help me over this hump.
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
> C.E.P.
> 415 W.46th Street
> New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
> (212) 247-0296

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Bolger rules!!!
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- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>The biggest issue will be putting epoxy
>in 8 of the those birds mouths notches, 30ft long, before it sets
>up....

Three word: Raka slow hardner ;-)

YIBB,

David

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296

Use a tablesaw. Setup a feather board or two to keep it down and
against the fence. Have helpser support then ends as you want the
board there. Not a big deal. The biggest issue will be putting epoxy
in 8 of the those birds mouths notches, 30ft long, before it sets
up....

--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> FBBB --
>
> That notch. That little bite. I seem to recall the fellows in the
> Wooden Boat article said it could be done with a tablesaw, but they
> used something different. Something that looked big and expensive.
>
> Would a router with a cone shaped bit and a fence to the trick?
Would
> it be better than a tablesaw?
>
> You all have already got me past the scarfing, and the gluing seems
> easy. Help me over this hump.
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
> C.E.P.
> 415 W.46th Street
> New York, New York 10036
>http://www.crumblingempire.com
> (212) 247-0296

FBBB --

That notch. That little bite. I seem to recall the fellows in the
Wooden Boat article said it could be done with a tablesaw, but they
used something different. Something that looked big and expensive.

Would a router with a cone shaped bit and a fence to the trick? Would
it be better than a tablesaw?

You all have already got me past the scarfing, and the gluing seems
easy. Help me over this hump.

YIBB,

David

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296

Re: [bolger] Re: Making the &quot;Birdsmouth&quot;

Re: [bolger] Re: Making the "Birdsmouth"