Red Zinger
Red Zinger for sale onsailingtexas.com
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Walter" <walter@...> wrote:
>I once inspected Red Zinger back when Richard Zapf was contemplating selling her. Champion rower Henry Szostic, a superb machinist, made parts for her rig, which was aluminum as I recall. Zinger was in rough shape and leaking then and I didn't buy her, though I still like the design. She was fast on a reach and run.
> There are several articles on the Red Zinger in the current Messing About in Boats, January 2010. Pages 28,29,30,31. An article by the current owner about a cruise last August, reprints of 2 Bob Hicks articles on the boat from 1987 and and 1988, and a "Bolger on Design" page with lines and comments. Nice to see Bob continuing with his Bolger series.
> Walter baron, Old Wharf Dory Co.
>
There are several articles on the Red Zinger in the current Messing About in Boats, January 2010. Pages 28,29,30,31. An article by the current owner about a cruise last August, reprints of 2 Bob Hicks articles on the boat from 1987 and and 1988, and a "Bolger on Design" page with lines and comments. Nice to see Bob continuing with his Bolger series.
Walter baron, Old Wharf Dory Co.
Walter baron, Old Wharf Dory Co.
Darrell,
here's a chapter in Bolger's book _Boats With An Open Mind_ that
doesn't actually tell much about her save that PCB would do the
planking somewhat differently, and that the comfortable saloon below
with the large windows is supposed to attract people to sit there in
the middle of the boat, and act as live ballast trimming the boat as
the designer intended. However, they usually all want to sit in the aft
cockpit and trim the boat down by the stern. Some lines scans are in
Bolger Cartoons
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Red%20Zinger%
20Sailboat/
(Ross: does RZ have any other ballast built in?)
Bolger answers a related question often raised about the frequently
observed behaviour of people in Birdwatcher designs who are seen
sitting high on the decks and not below as intended. Bolger
writes: "...Unfortunately, shade, shelter, and soft seats have all
proved inadequate compensation for an uninterrupted view and the feel
of the wind..."
Graeme
here's a chapter in Bolger's book _Boats With An Open Mind_ that
doesn't actually tell much about her save that PCB would do the
planking somewhat differently, and that the comfortable saloon below
with the large windows is supposed to attract people to sit there in
the middle of the boat, and act as live ballast trimming the boat as
the designer intended. However, they usually all want to sit in the aft
cockpit and trim the boat down by the stern. Some lines scans are in
Bolger Cartoons
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Red%20Zinger%
20Sailboat/
(Ross: does RZ have any other ballast built in?)
Bolger answers a related question often raised about the frequently
observed behaviour of people in Birdwatcher designs who are seen
sitting high on the decks and not below as intended. Bolger
writes: "...Unfortunately, shade, shelter, and soft seats have all
proved inadequate compensation for an uninterrupted view and the feel
of the wind..."
Graeme
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dproasit" <knic0014@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Bruce and all - Noticed this add in Melbourne/Aust
> Perhaps you could give us a rundown on this design
> Ta - Darrell
> http://www.adpost.com/au/boats/269/
>
Darrell,
This boat has been sold, and is already in Queensland. I have been
called on to carry out rig modifications, subject to approval from
PCB&F. Proposal involves changing from the current rig to a Solent Lug,
retaining the designed sail plan ie. modify the mast only.
Ross Lillistone www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au
This boat has been sold, and is already in Queensland. I have been
called on to carry out rig modifications, subject to approval from
PCB&F. Proposal involves changing from the current rig to a Solent Lug,
retaining the designed sail plan ie. modify the mast only.
Ross Lillistone www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dproasit" <knic0014@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Bruce and all - Noticed this add in Melbourne/Aust
> Perhaps you could give us a rundown on this design
> Ta - Darrell
>http://www.adpost.com/au/boats/269/
>
Hello Bruce and all - Noticed this add in Melbourne/Aust
Perhaps you could give us a rundown on this design
Ta - Darrell
http://www.adpost.com/au/boats/269/
Perhaps you could give us a rundown on this design
Ta - Darrell
http://www.adpost.com/au/boats/269/
Apparently original specs. required strip-planked bottom and moulded-
ply bilge panels. PCB says in his write-up that he thought it better
to use ply for the bottom and strip-plank the bilge-panels.
Seems to me that, if he had reservations about strips for the bottom,
the same would apply to the bilge panels. Cold-moulding is tedious
(as is strip planking) but, looking at the sections, you can see that
the bilge will take sheet plywood from the transom until well fwd of
amidships. Let's say that would be 1/2" ply. From there fwd, you
could fit a ply butt-strap and continue to plank in double-thickness
1/4" ply strips, perhaps 9" wide to start and narrower towards the
bow. There would need to be a couple of stringers a side in this
area, to hold the narrow strips of ply. The fwd edge of the ply would
be cut at an angle of about 45 degrees, so that you'd get about a
foot of coverage per strip. Not as easy as stitch-and-glue of course.
Richard Hartley, who was first a boatbuilder before he became a
prolific designer of plywood boats for owner-building, used a
technique like this for the flared bows of many of his powerboat
designs.
Howard
ply bilge panels. PCB says in his write-up that he thought it better
to use ply for the bottom and strip-plank the bilge-panels.
Seems to me that, if he had reservations about strips for the bottom,
the same would apply to the bilge panels. Cold-moulding is tedious
(as is strip planking) but, looking at the sections, you can see that
the bilge will take sheet plywood from the transom until well fwd of
amidships. Let's say that would be 1/2" ply. From there fwd, you
could fit a ply butt-strap and continue to plank in double-thickness
1/4" ply strips, perhaps 9" wide to start and narrower towards the
bow. There would need to be a couple of stringers a side in this
area, to hold the narrow strips of ply. The fwd edge of the ply would
be cut at an angle of about 45 degrees, so that you'd get about a
foot of coverage per strip. Not as easy as stitch-and-glue of course.
Richard Hartley, who was first a boatbuilder before he became a
prolific designer of plywood boats for owner-building, used a
technique like this for the flared bows of many of his powerboat
designs.
Howard
NIS 26 - Disp 5600 lbs, SA 412 sq ft (both numbers approx)
RZ: Disp 5200 lbs, SA 319 sq ft
Hard to know who that favors, performancewise.
RZ: Disp 5200 lbs, SA 319 sq ft
Hard to know who that favors, performancewise.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:
dodger supported by hoops, so it could be folded flat on the cabin
top fwd. of the hatch.
in a chop, or at anchor. Righting abilty hard to assess without
knowing anything about how it's ballasted, if at all.
I've always been intrigued by RZ's shape, unique in Bolger designs as
far as I know. Contrary to most of his designs around this size, he's
managed to get two masts, c/b, rudder and outboard motor all on the
centreline.
plus more in the cockpit.
Howard
wrote:
> > Australian Red Zinger (featured in BWAOM) for sale.Agreed, but I'm not sure how to do it better. Probably a canvas
> The doghouse does not look very happy to me.
dodger supported by hoops, so it could be folded flat on the cabin
top fwd. of the hatch.
> How do you think the sailing performance would compare with the 26'Very similar, I'd say. Zinger's veed forward sections would be better
> Norwalk Island Sharpie?
in a chop, or at anchor. Righting abilty hard to assess without
knowing anything about how it's ballasted, if at all.
I've always been intrigued by RZ's shape, unique in Bolger designs as
far as I know. Contrary to most of his designs around this size, he's
managed to get two masts, c/b, rudder and outboard motor all on the
centreline.
>On the other hand, you get a wet (smelly?) centerboard in theYes. I thought it was fully enclosed, but see now that it's not.
> middle of the cabin from time to time.
> Where does the fifth person lie down?If you were desperate, you could get up to three on the cabin sole,
plus more in the cockpit.
Howard
> Australian Red Zinger (featured in BWAOM) for sale.Whew, what a color! Thanks for the pointing out the link.
This is one of my favorite Bolger designs (i.e. best adapted to my
use of a boat). The doghouse does not look very happy to me. Bolger
drew it as a canvas top, but on the two boats that I know about, it
was built in wood. I wonder if perhaps a conventional dodger would
look better and work as well.
How do you think the sailing performance would compare with the 26'
Norwalk Island Sharpie? Kirby is a very performance oriented
designer, of course. The ketch rig would give a little more area,
but less would be useful. Having been on Kirbys NIS26 at a boat
show, I can say that the centerboard makes it very difficult to get
around the cabin. Zinger would be much better in that regard, I
think. On the other hand, you get a wet (smelly?) centerboard in the
middle of the cabin from time to time.
Where does the fifth person lie down? Perhaps across from the double
in the 'galley'?
Peter
If you go to
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale.php
... and scroll well down the page, you'll see an Australian Red
Zinger (featured in BWAOM) for sale. There are seven pics. of it and
it's worth looking at all of them, even if it is green and grey
rather than red.
There's a couple of other Bolger boats on the same page too.
Howard
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale.php
... and scroll well down the page, you'll see an Australian Red
Zinger (featured in BWAOM) for sale. There are seven pics. of it and
it's worth looking at all of them, even if it is green and grey
rather than red.
There's a couple of other Bolger boats on the same page too.
Howard
I have been on Red Zinger, and it seemed like a nice boat, but I didn't
spend very long on it. Even though it's only blue, it's very easy to
pick out in an anchorage. I think Rich Zapf liked it a lot as he kept it
for many years and would spend vacation time cruising around. Wish I
could tell you more. I suppose if you were pretty serious about building
one, Rich wouldn't mind talking about it. But finish Windermere first!
spend very long on it. Even though it's only blue, it's very easy to
pick out in an anchorage. I think Rich Zapf liked it a lot as he kept it
for many years and would spend vacation time cruising around. Wish I
could tell you more. I suppose if you were pretty serious about building
one, Rich wouldn't mind talking about it. But finish Windermere first!
> In some ways, RED ZINGER is like an enlarged version ofZinger does have considerable internal ballast. The MAIB article
> CHEBACCO and as such could be modified to be offshore
> capable in the very same way, by enclosing the cockpit
> and adding internal ballest.
describes the results of experiments in ballasting. I think she would
be safe enough for an ocean crossing if you limited the volume of
water that could collect in the cockpit, but the rig is not ideal
(imagine getting up to the pointy end to tie in the third reef in 40+
kts) and she just flat does not have the weight-carrying capacity for
stores.
I only know of the two Zinger's, but I don't know of any 25'
Chebaccos. I think that Zinger would be easier to build and a more
useful boat. I don't really like the looks of the hard doghouse, much
as I admire its function. I would sketch a bunch of things and ask
the master if he has any ideas. I think a sloped hatch per Black
Skimmer would look better but not be as useful.
Peter
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
You are absolutely correct. I had a brain cramp there - knew it
couldn't be and typed it anyway!
In some ways, RED ZINGER is like an enlarged version of CHEBACCO and
as such could be modified to be offshore capable in the very same
way. by enclosing the cockpit and adding internal ballest. Would be
best to do that at the beginning of the build though.
I expect if PCB were to redesign it now he would be incorporating a
hull like FIJI, although RED ZINGER as designed would be great in
tidal waters.
Cheers, Nels
> > She has a huge centerboard designed to weigh 5200 pounds,Hi Peter,
> > so I would say she looks pretty fast.
>
> At all-up weight of the boat is 5200 lbs. The centerboard is
> ballasted just enough to sink.
You are absolutely correct. I had a brain cramp there - knew it
couldn't be and typed it anyway!
In some ways, RED ZINGER is like an enlarged version of CHEBACCO and
as such could be modified to be offshore capable in the very same
way. by enclosing the cockpit and adding internal ballest. Would be
best to do that at the beginning of the build though.
I expect if PCB were to redesign it now he would be incorporating a
hull like FIJI, although RED ZINGER as designed would be great in
tidal waters.
Cheers, Nels
> She has a huge centerboard designed to weigh 5200 pounds,At all-up weight of the boat is 5200 lbs. The centerboard is
> so I would say she looks pretty fast.
ballasted just enough to sink. Bright Thread is 6800 lbs, and would
have much more elbow room inside due mostly to greater beam. (10' vs
7'10") The Leeboard Catboat is shorter but with no centerboard, much
more open.
Peter
Yes its an interesting boat but what an awful colour!
I would say "Red Zinger" would be fairly seaworthy but not really an ocean crossing craft. Good for coastal cruising. From memory I think she's about 25'6" x abot 7'6"- 8' ?, fairly shoal draft with a large centreboard and can sleep 4.
mannthree <johnmann@...> wrote:
Please find below a link to a site displaying a Red Zinger for sale
in Australia.
This is an interesting boat. I need to get BWAOM, but until then
can someone give a brief description of the specifications for this
boat. Is it a coastal or blue water cruiser. Is there anyone out
there who has built one or owns one who can give info on her sailing
abilities,
Regards,
John Mann
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale.php
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Personals
- New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I would say "Red Zinger" would be fairly seaworthy but not really an ocean crossing craft. Good for coastal cruising. From memory I think she's about 25'6" x abot 7'6"- 8' ?, fairly shoal draft with a large centreboard and can sleep 4.
mannthree <johnmann@...> wrote:
Please find below a link to a site displaying a Red Zinger for sale
in Australia.
This is an interesting boat. I need to get BWAOM, but until then
can someone give a brief description of the specifications for this
boat. Is it a coastal or blue water cruiser. Is there anyone out
there who has built one or owns one who can give info on her sailing
abilities,
Regards,
John Mann
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale.php
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Personals
- New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes its an interesting boat but what an awful colour!
I would say "Red Zinger" would be fairly seaworthy but not really an ocean crossing craft. Good for coastal cruising. From memory I think she's about 25'6" x abot 7'6"- 8' ?, fairly shoal draft with a large centreboard and can sleep 4.
mannthree <johnmann@...> wrote:
Please find below a link to a site displaying a Red Zinger for sale
in Australia.
This is an interesting boat. I need to get BWAOM, but until then
can someone give a brief description of the specifications for this
boat. Is it a coastal or blue water cruiser. Is there anyone out
there who has built one or owns one who can give info on her sailing
abilities,
Regards,
John Mann
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale.php
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Personals
- New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I would say "Red Zinger" would be fairly seaworthy but not really an ocean crossing craft. Good for coastal cruising. From memory I think she's about 25'6" x abot 7'6"- 8' ?, fairly shoal draft with a large centreboard and can sleep 4.
mannthree <johnmann@...> wrote:
Please find below a link to a site displaying a Red Zinger for sale
in Australia.
This is an interesting boat. I need to get BWAOM, but until then
can someone give a brief description of the specifications for this
boat. Is it a coastal or blue water cruiser. Is there anyone out
there who has built one or owns one who can give info on her sailing
abilities,
Regards,
John Mann
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale.php
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Personals
- New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mannthree" <johnmann@i...> wrote:
I created a Folder by that name in the files at Bolger 3.
Unfortunately my scanner won't copy text. However the write-up in
BWAOM is very sketchy as it is one the fictional articles written for
WB mag at one time as has as much about CARTOPPER as about RED ZINGER.
PCB does mention that the mainsail was originally cut too flat and
when re-cut "the results were dramatic" - "and she has since done
well in handicap racing against more conventional boats."
She has a huge centerboard designed to weigh 5200 pounds, so I would
say she looks pretty fast. Offshore capable? She is written up in
the "Vacation Home" section which is just before the "Real Cruisers"
Section. RED ZINGER and BRIGHT THREAD probably are the most seaworthy
in that section I would guess.
Hope this helps, Nels
> Please find below a link to a site displaying a Red Zinger for saleHi John,
> in Australia.
>
> This is an interesting boat.
I created a Folder by that name in the files at Bolger 3.
Unfortunately my scanner won't copy text. However the write-up in
BWAOM is very sketchy as it is one the fictional articles written for
WB mag at one time as has as much about CARTOPPER as about RED ZINGER.
PCB does mention that the mainsail was originally cut too flat and
when re-cut "the results were dramatic" - "and she has since done
well in handicap racing against more conventional boats."
She has a huge centerboard designed to weigh 5200 pounds, so I would
say she looks pretty fast. Offshore capable? She is written up in
the "Vacation Home" section which is just before the "Real Cruisers"
Section. RED ZINGER and BRIGHT THREAD probably are the most seaworthy
in that section I would guess.
Hope this helps, Nels
> a Red Zinger for saleThis is a daysailing and coastal cruising boat. The intention was
> Is it a coastal or blue water cruiser.
mostly as a daysailer with a good head, if I recall PCB's remarks
correctly. I don't know where the writer got the idea it was a boat
for five. The plans show two 2 quarter berths, mostly under the
cockpit with about room for 1 person to sit on each side in the after
part of the cabin. Forward, there is a double from the centerboard to
the starboard side (just visible in the picture) and an area to put a
galley on the port side. The head is forward. I wish there were more
pictures of the interior because I have not been able to get
realistic feeling for how much space there is inside.
The hard doghouse on the boat is shown as a canvas top in the plans.
The American boat had also had a hard top, I think. The owner of that
boat installed smaller windows, per PCB.
The Australian owner was quoted as being very pleased with the boat.
It looks quite well built to me. I do wonder if the propellor is well
down in the water.
Bolger says in BWAOM and MAIB that a full crew will put her down by
the stern.
An ideal singlehander, I should think. Good rig for it. Good berth
for one.
Peter
Please find below a link to a site displaying a Red Zinger for sale
in Australia.
This is an interesting boat. I need to get BWAOM, but until then
can someone give a brief description of the specifications for this
boat. Is it a coastal or blue water cruiser. Is there anyone out
there who has built one or owns one who can give info on her sailing
abilities,
Regards,
John Mann
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale.php
in Australia.
This is an interesting boat. I need to get BWAOM, but until then
can someone give a brief description of the specifications for this
boat. Is it a coastal or blue water cruiser. Is there anyone out
there who has built one or owns one who can give info on her sailing
abilities,
Regards,
John Mann
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale.php
My impression was that on some days it could keep up with many other
boats. Also, people who had fancy, more normal boats resented it, so
it was given a tough handicap after it won. However, I have to go by
the stories I heard as I wasn't there. I suspect if the builder had
billed himself for his building time at the normal rate, he would have
had one of the more expensive boats, instead of one of the cheaper
ones.
boats. Also, people who had fancy, more normal boats resented it, so
it was given a tough handicap after it won. However, I have to go by
the stories I heard as I wasn't there. I suspect if the builder had
billed himself for his building time at the normal rate, he would have
had one of the more expensive boats, instead of one of the cheaper
ones.
--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> > Good in handicap racing as
> > it is discounted until it wins a couple of times.
>
> Thanks for the comments. I think the big issue in performance will
> have to do with stability upwind. A fairly narrow, light boat is not
> going to carry a big rig upwind without a deep keel. A designer like
> PCB will give it a big rig for good offwind performance and then
when
> the boat heels going upwind, it will be tagged with the
> adjective 'tender.' Usually with PCB, 'oversparred' is more
accurate.
>
> As for handicap racing, success is all in the rating. However, it's
> not much fun if there few boats near your rating in the fleet,
> however fair it is and however much you win. In other words, fair
> ratings aren't enough to make a good race between a Red Zinger and a
> J-105.
>
> Peter
> Good in handicap racing asThanks for the comments. I think the big issue in performance will
> it is discounted until it wins a couple of times.
have to do with stability upwind. A fairly narrow, light boat is not
going to carry a big rig upwind without a deep keel. A designer like
PCB will give it a big rig for good offwind performance and then when
the boat heels going upwind, it will be tagged with the
adjective 'tender.' Usually with PCB, 'oversparred' is more accurate.
As for handicap racing, success is all in the rating. However, it's
not much fun if there few boats near your rating in the fleet,
however fair it is and however much you win. In other words, fair
ratings aren't enough to make a good race between a Red Zinger and a
J-105.
Peter
I was only on it for a couple of hours, on a light air day, so I don't
have a good handle on performance based on my own experience. If I
remember correctly, I am told that, against usual club yacht racing
crowd, it can be competitive in some conditions. I seem to recall it
was said to be better downwind than upwind. Good in handicap racing as
it is discounted until it wins a couple of times. Then they don't want
it around.
I didn't spend much time below, but I remember it seemed relatively
open. Of course my other experience with a boat this size was terribly
cramped, so maybe it's all relative.
One advantage that RZ shares with other boats is that you can find it
in the anchorage. Almost all the other boats had topsides that looked
almost the same.
have a good handle on performance based on my own experience. If I
remember correctly, I am told that, against usual club yacht racing
crowd, it can be competitive in some conditions. I seem to recall it
was said to be better downwind than upwind. Good in handicap racing as
it is discounted until it wins a couple of times. Then they don't want
it around.
I didn't spend much time below, but I remember it seemed relatively
open. Of course my other experience with a boat this size was terribly
cramped, so maybe it's all relative.
One advantage that RZ shares with other boats is that you can find it
in the anchorage. Almost all the other boats had topsides that looked
almost the same.
--- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
> > Red Zinger is a LOT more comfortable than that. In fact the only
> > thing that would have made it much more comfortable the day I had
a
> > ride was some kind of anti Jet Ski system. Of course it was a nice
> > day.
>
> Do you have a subjective opinion of RZ's sailing performance? Does
it
> seem cramped below?
>
> This is a design I much admire, but I wonder if it looks even better
> than it is.
>
> Peter
> Red Zinger is a LOT more comfortable than that. In fact the onlyDo you have a subjective opinion of RZ's sailing performance? Does it
> thing that would have made it much more comfortable the day I had a
> ride was some kind of anti Jet Ski system. Of course it was a nice
> day.
seem cramped below?
This is a design I much admire, but I wonder if it looks even better
than it is.
Peter
Red Zinger is a LOT more comfortable than that. In fact the only
thing that would have made it much more comfortable the day I had a
ride was some kind of anti Jet Ski system. Of course it was a nice
day.
thing that would have made it much more comfortable the day I had a
ride was some kind of anti Jet Ski system. Of course it was a nice
day.
--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
snip
> I think PCB addresses this in the Red Zinger chapter in BWAOM. Like
> many recreational activities, comfort and efficiency often come
after
> style and sensation. My wife have been known to struggle up the
sheer
> face of a cliff in spite of the fact that there's a well paved and
> scenic auto road leading to the top as well.
>
snip
>> If I have an objection to the Jochem's, Birdwatcher, etc. it's theI think PCB addresses this in the Red Zinger chapter in BWAOM. Like
>> reduction of unsheltered space. I like the distinction between
>> laying about on deck in the sun, and then going into the cabin to
>> sleep.
>
>In thinking about what the reaction of my friends would be to a
>Jochems or a Whalewatcher, I can not imagine them being willing to
>stay below. As past-middle-agers, they are well trained to sail on
>deck. I can see four or five crowded into an outdoor conning station
>meant for one.
many recreational activities, comfort and efficiency often come after
style and sensation. My wife have been known to struggle up the sheer
face of a cliff in spite of the fact that there's a well paved and
scenic auto road leading to the top as well.
On the other hand, I don't think I've seen one cruising primer that
doesn't enthusiastically endorse a well-made and large dodger. This
suggests that perhaps when cruising, the rush of the wind and sting
of the spray wear thin in short order. In the video's intro sequence
Bolger says something to the effect that you might find yourself
using the inside steering far more than you presently expect.
>On the other hand, my children would have loved it, especially myIt was sailing the Light Scooner with my toddler daughter that first
>daughter. I had my Mariner when she was small, and she retreated into
>the cabin when she was a little scared. Between the security and the
>ability to "play house," I'm sure it would have worked out very well.
made me start to think that I should have built a Birdwatcher. Aside
from being far more docile and self-righting, the cabin arrangement
would have let her rumble about without nearly so much worry on my
part about her getting cold, sunburned, or falling overboard. I never
went out single-handed in the Scooner with her. In the Birdwatcher it
doesn't seem entirely unreasonable. Even if I dropped dead of a heart
attack, likely the boat would see her safely to the lee shore.
I am very satisfied with the way the I60 seems to offer the benefits
of the BW style cabin, while giving us old salts plenty of room to
enjoy fomenting skin cancer. (It's the two figures in the front
section, one standing the other seated that really did it for me.) I
wonder if a smaller version would afford the benefits at a reduced
scale?
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
Peter:
I have sailed in a Birdwatcher and a couple of Michalak's derivatives, and while there are some good points about the "open" cabin, there is one point that I don't like. You can't feel the wind on your cheek. That is not only unromantic, it is something of a hindrance. You don't realize how much you depend on your sense of feel to gauge the wind direction and speed, until you don't have it. This is especially true in very light, shifting breezes. When the wind pipes up, there are other indicators.
Chuck
Jochems or a Whalewatcher, I can not imagine them being willing to
stay below. As past-middle-agers, they are well trained to sail on
deck. I can see four or five crowded into an outdoor conning station
meant for one.
On the other hand, my children would have loved it, especially my
daughter. I had my Mariner when she was small, and she retreated into
the cabin when she was a little scared. Between the security and the
ability to "play house," I'm sure it would have worked out very well.
Peter
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have sailed in a Birdwatcher and a couple of Michalak's derivatives, and while there are some good points about the "open" cabin, there is one point that I don't like. You can't feel the wind on your cheek. That is not only unromantic, it is something of a hindrance. You don't realize how much you depend on your sense of feel to gauge the wind direction and speed, until you don't have it. This is especially true in very light, shifting breezes. When the wind pipes up, there are other indicators.
Chuck
> If I have an objection to the Jochem's, Birdwatcher, etc. it's theIn thinking about what the reaction of my friends would be to a
> reduction of unsheltered space. I like the distinction between
> laying about on deck in the sun, and then going into the cabin to
> sleep.
Jochems or a Whalewatcher, I can not imagine them being willing to
stay below. As past-middle-agers, they are well trained to sail on
deck. I can see four or five crowded into an outdoor conning station
meant for one.
On the other hand, my children would have loved it, especially my
daughter. I had my Mariner when she was small, and she retreated into
the cabin when she was a little scared. Between the security and the
ability to "play house," I'm sure it would have worked out very well.
Peter
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If I have an objection to the Jochem's, Birdwatcher, etc. it's theIn thinking about what the reaction of my friends would be to a
> reduction of unsheltered space. I like the distinction between
> laying about on deck in the sun, and then going into the cabin to
> sleep.
Jochems or a Whalewatcher, I can not imagine them being willing to
stay below. As past-middle-agers, they are well trained to sail on
deck. I can see four or five crowded into an outdoor conning station
meant for one.
On the other hand, my children would have loved it, especially my
daughter. I had my Mariner when she was small, and she retreated into
the cabin when she was a little scared. Between the security and the
ability to "play house," I'm sure it would have worked out very well.
Peter
> To help tide us over and give us an idea of what the cabin ofMy overall impression was that the boat isn't nearly as ugly or
> the I60 will be like, PCB&F sent Sue and me each a copy of the
> Jochem's video.
awkward as I thought; the few photos that I've seen must have
caught her at a particularly unflattering angle. I don't count
the leeboards in that assessment, though; they're just as ugly
as ever. :-)
I'm actually glad that PCB and Jochems went with leeboards
rather than the off-center centerboard from the original
Birdwatcher -- otherwise, I might've gone ahead and built one,
and missed out on the I60! Overall, she seems like a big
improvement on the Birdwatcher and Martha Jane, in roughly
the same size range.
And I love the belowdecks auxiliary steering station. I hope
PCB&F can pull off that feature on the I60....
> Next month Sue is coming downWell, there's some utility to having Gulls for use as tenders,
> for a visit and we're going to build a couple of Gulls just for
> the fun of it.
but it should also be fun, too. :-)
FBBB --
To help tide us over and give us an idea of what the cabin of the I60
will be like, PCB&F sent Sue and me each a copy of the Jochem's video.
As a professional filmmaker, I'm probably better qualified to forgive
the video it's productions problems and enjoy it for what it is.
Whatever it's faults, it does a good enough job of illustrating the
features of the Jochem's Schooner in particular, and the birdwatcher
concept in general. It was also a good reminder that there's no
substitute for good writing and audience interest; Phil's "taking
head" sequences and V.O. sequences are eminently watchable.
If I have an objection to the Jochem's, Birdwatcher, etc. it's the
reduction of unsheltered space. I like the distinction between
laying about on deck in the sun, and then going into the cabin to
sleep. This prejudice may be at least partly based on the feeling of
confinement I associate with being below deck on a traditional boat;
something you don't seem to get in the Jochem's Schooner. It's
wonderfully clear from the video that the Jochem's cabin is filled
with light and air in a way you'd simply never expect from a boat.
Even your average R.V. isn't so filled with light and air. The good
judge intends to cruise the Sea of Cortez in the Jochem's Schooner.
I've spent a little time there myself, and the idea of relaxing
inside with a book on the settee while the boat self-steers along the
eastern coast of Baja California is an appealing one in the extreme!
Add a rod and reel trolling a feather in the hopes of catching a
yellowtail for dinner and I'd be in heaven. The boat seems well
suited to living the dream.
As to what the video portends for the I60, it seems like nothing but
good news. The added length of the Insolent will give me plenty of
room to roam out in the sun and spray, and adds considerable grace to
the profile as well as additional speed. Before I saw the tape I was
thinking about how comfortable my mother-in-law would be ensconced in
the cabin as we sped along. Now that I've see the concept in action,
I'm thrilled.
All that remains now is the building. By the tone of the letter,
PCB&F seem at least as frustrated by not being able to start
immediately if not more so! On the other hand, the boat seems more or
less finished in Phil's head, so once his schedule is clear I bet
we'll see something before too long. In the meantime I've got the
lil'winnie and the LSME to amuse me. Next month Sue is coming down
for a visit and we're going to build a couple of Gulls just for the
fun of it.
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296
To help tide us over and give us an idea of what the cabin of the I60
will be like, PCB&F sent Sue and me each a copy of the Jochem's video.
As a professional filmmaker, I'm probably better qualified to forgive
the video it's productions problems and enjoy it for what it is.
Whatever it's faults, it does a good enough job of illustrating the
features of the Jochem's Schooner in particular, and the birdwatcher
concept in general. It was also a good reminder that there's no
substitute for good writing and audience interest; Phil's "taking
head" sequences and V.O. sequences are eminently watchable.
If I have an objection to the Jochem's, Birdwatcher, etc. it's the
reduction of unsheltered space. I like the distinction between
laying about on deck in the sun, and then going into the cabin to
sleep. This prejudice may be at least partly based on the feeling of
confinement I associate with being below deck on a traditional boat;
something you don't seem to get in the Jochem's Schooner. It's
wonderfully clear from the video that the Jochem's cabin is filled
with light and air in a way you'd simply never expect from a boat.
Even your average R.V. isn't so filled with light and air. The good
judge intends to cruise the Sea of Cortez in the Jochem's Schooner.
I've spent a little time there myself, and the idea of relaxing
inside with a book on the settee while the boat self-steers along the
eastern coast of Baja California is an appealing one in the extreme!
Add a rod and reel trolling a feather in the hopes of catching a
yellowtail for dinner and I'd be in heaven. The boat seems well
suited to living the dream.
As to what the video portends for the I60, it seems like nothing but
good news. The added length of the Insolent will give me plenty of
room to roam out in the sun and spray, and adds considerable grace to
the profile as well as additional speed. Before I saw the tape I was
thinking about how comfortable my mother-in-law would be ensconced in
the cabin as we sped along. Now that I've see the concept in action,
I'm thrilled.
All that remains now is the building. By the tone of the letter,
PCB&F seem at least as frustrated by not being able to start
immediately if not more so! On the other hand, the boat seems more or
less finished in Phil's head, so once his schedule is clear I bet
we'll see something before too long. In the meantime I've got the
lil'winnie and the LSME to amuse me. Next month Sue is coming down
for a visit and we're going to build a couple of Gulls just for the
fun of it.
YIBB,
David
C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
(212) 247-0296