Re: [bolger] Re: Lofting Spur II

Here it be.

http://www.messingaboutinboats.com/archives/mbissueaugust01.html

Sorry about the wrap.

--- M Fx <mfxboats@...> wrote:

> I read that too.... I think he put the epoxy on thin
> and sparsely, letting it soak in. I'll Googleize it
> and see what I can find.
>
> -MFX
>
> > > I recall reading somewhere, in MAIB probably, of
> a
> > technique where
> > > you allow the epoxy to be pulled into the gaps
> of
> > the laps by
> > > capillary action.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> posts,
> > snip all you like
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box
> > 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
> snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box
> 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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If you go to Chris whatever's book on lap canoes,
called canoe shop or something, you will see his neat
open lap technique. I like it! No capilary actio
required. Or look at ultrlight boatbuilding by Tom
Hill, a great technique, no capilary required.
--- M Fx <mfxboats@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
I read that too.... I think he put the epoxy on
thin 
and sparsely, letting it soak in. I'll Googleize
it 
and see what I can find. 
 
-MFX

> > I recall reading somewhere, in MAIB

probably, of a

> technique where 
> > you allow the epoxy to be pulled into the

gaps of

> the laps by 
> > capillary action. 
> > 
> > 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups

Sponsor

> 
> Bolger rules!!! 
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or 
> flogging dead horses 
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay

on topic, and

> punctuate 
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your

posts,

> snip all you like 
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O.

Box

> 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)

282-1349

> - Unsubscribe:

bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> <a

href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a>

> 
>

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<tt>
Bolger rules!!! 
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
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I read that too.... I think he put the epoxy on thin
and sparsely, letting it soak in. I'll Googleize it
and see what I can find.

-MFX

> > I recall reading somewhere, in MAIB probably, of a
> technique where
> > you allow the epoxy to be pulled into the gaps of
> the laps by
> > capillary action.
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and
> punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
> snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box
> 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

I believe it was a Woodenboat article by Rob White, he does his epoxing
in very hot conditions and then opens the door to let every thing cool
down, and apparently the epoxy gets sucked in as the project cools down.

HJ

>
>
> I recall reading somewhere, in MAIB probably, of a technique where
> you allow the epoxy to be pulled into the gaps of the laps by
> capillary action.
>
>

--- In bolger@y..., "rdchamberland" <cha62759@t...> wrote:

> Copper boat nails and copper roves
> Jamestown Distributors

Thanks, I just bought some from their website. Copper nails and
roves appear to actually be cheaper than pop rivets [I think,
guessing on how many come per pound]. Pop rivets are clinching
and 'one hand', but I will give nails and roves a try just for the
experience.

Copper boat nails and copper roves
Jamestown Distributors
1 800 423 0030

Bob Chamberland

--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
> Just for the fun of it, and because I am curious about experimenting
> with [a first attempt at] lap-strake construction, I started lofting
> of Spur II from the offsets in Ch.11 of BWAOM. See scan:
>http://www.hallman.org/bolger/spur/spur.gif
>
> My first impression, after seeing the lines at full scale, is how
> big this boat is while weighing only 100 lbs. Seems like it will
> only take 6 [or 7] sheets of 1/4" plywood.
>
> Also, comparing the PCB detailing with "traditional lap-strake" in
> the H.I. Chapelle Boatbuilding book, calls attention to the huge
> changes brought to boat building with 'modern things' like plywood,
> [epoxy, etc.]
>
> I'd appreciate any advice about lap-strakes.
>
> Also, I guess it makes sense to scarf join the 8' plywood end to end
> before cutting out the strakes.
>
> And, has anybody used one of those cordless circular saws, which seem
> well suited for cutting large smooth curves out of 1/4" plywood?
>
> And more, the meaning of the words 'garboard' and 'spiling' are
> dawning in my consciousness.
>
> Does anybody know a source of copper rivets and burrs? Then again, I
> am inclined to try using epoxy in the laps instead of metal fasteners.

I was in the library today, and saw a copy of Chris'
book "The Canoe Shop". I don't particularly think
much of the canoes in this book, and had passed it
over, but the method might work nicely on spur. He
doesn't bevel any of the strips, just uses a constant
shape rebate, and plugs the remainder with epoxy. as
a result the edges index, but do not have to be cut
with bevels. The result is really quite impressive.
The Hill method (created by a mentor of his) uses a
batten at every strip, on both sides, This makes
planing the bevel automatic, and also makes the layout
of planking simple. The only problem is that with a
boat using many bevels, you need to build quite a
significant mold. Almost two boats in cost and stuff
by the time you are done, on the other hand, boat two
is a snap. Chris' method lacks the ease of trasing
planks, but does not require any strigers. One of
these methods should work nicely.

______________________________________________________________________
Only a few days left to file!http://taxes.yahoo.ca

You are only building one boat with about 3 feet of plywood joint to
sand. Use a 2X4, because it doesn't need a special handle, and rock it
just a little. Sand for 20 minutes and then throw it away and be done.
For repetitive applications, it may be worth getting fancier. Warning:
I have not done this particular task, tho I've worn out lots of
sandpaper.

--- In bolger@y..., Hal Lynch <hal@c...> wrote:
> Thanks to all who have replied to my fairing query.
>
> The material recomendations I have received for the base
> of a longboard have ranged from 1/4" ply to a 2x4. Just
> how flexible/inflexible should a longboard be? I am
> leaning towards 3/8" ply as a compromise, but I would
> rather build a boat than multiple longboards trying to
> get it right.
>
> hal

--- In bolger@y..., "Paul W. Esterle" <pesterle@p...> wrote:

> I built a hovercraft this way once. Problem is that
> the expanded head of a pop rivet is not sufficiently
> big to give enough bearing surface. I had to use
> back up washers.

Yes, the backup washers would be needed but they are easy!

> Other problem is that standard pop rivets aren't water
> proof!

I have no doubt at all that a coat of oil paint [or epoxy] will plug
the pop rivit mandrel holes.

Basically, I think the pop rivets could be used to hold most of the
wows and goofs in the fit up of the lap-strakes together long enough
to fill the cracks of the laps with thickened epoxy. Heck, the pop
rivets could be removed after that if needed and their holes plugged.

That should be "is NOT sufficiently big enough". Also, a quick search of
some of my suppliers seems to say that aluminum mandrels are pretty much
standard now.

Paul W. Esterle
Capt'n Pauley Video Productions
423.989.3159
S/V Bryn Awel, Columbia 10.7
Bristol, Tenn. USA
http://www.captnpauley.bigstep.com
http://pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul W. Esterle" <pesterle@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Lofting Spur II

> I built a hovercraft this way once. Problem is that the expanded head of a
> pop rivet is sufficiently big to give enough bearing surface. I had to use
> back up washers. Other problem is that standard pop rivets aren't water
> proof! The end of the mandrel is loosely retained but doesn't seal. You
can
> get closed end rivets that do seal but there are special order and
> expensive. Also most aluminum pop rivets have steel mandrels.
>
> Paul W. Esterle
> Capt'n Pauley Video Productions
> 423.989.3159
> S/V Bryn Awel, Columbia 10.7
> Bristol, Tenn. USA
>http://www.captnpauley.bigstep.com
>http://pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "brucehallman" <brucehallman@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 1:18 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Lofting Spur II
>
>
> > --- In bolger@y..., "Orr, Jamie" <jorr@b...> wrote:
> >
> > > For fasteners, do a google search on "rivets and roves".
> >
> > Do you think I could use el-cheapo aluminum pop rivets instead?
> >
> > I guess they come in stainless too, they have the advantage of
> > being "one sided" and they do a pretty nice job at cinching.
> >
> > No need for an extra set of hands to hold an anvil while you use a
> > ball peen hammer on the other side. They are not as pretty, but what
> > the heck...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Thanks to all who have replied to my fairing query.

The material recomendations I have received for the base
of a longboard have ranged from 1/4" ply to a 2x4. Just
how flexible/inflexible should a longboard be? I am
leaning towards 3/8" ply as a compromise, but I would
rather build a boat than multiple longboards trying to
get it right.

hal

I built a hovercraft this way once. Problem is that the expanded head of a
pop rivet is sufficiently big to give enough bearing surface. I had to use
back up washers. Other problem is that standard pop rivets aren't water
proof! The end of the mandrel is loosely retained but doesn't seal. You can
get closed end rivets that do seal but there are special order and
expensive. Also most aluminum pop rivets have steel mandrels.

Paul W. Esterle
Capt'n Pauley Video Productions
423.989.3159
S/V Bryn Awel, Columbia 10.7
Bristol, Tenn. USA
http://www.captnpauley.bigstep.com
http://pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/

----- Original Message -----
From: "brucehallman" <brucehallman@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 1:18 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Lofting Spur II

> --- In bolger@y..., "Orr, Jamie" <jorr@b...> wrote:
>
> > For fasteners, do a google search on "rivets and roves".
>
> Do you think I could use el-cheapo aluminum pop rivets instead?
>
> I guess they come in stainless too, they have the advantage of
> being "one sided" and they do a pretty nice job at cinching.
>
> No need for an extra set of hands to hold an anvil while you use a
> ball peen hammer on the other side. They are not as pretty, but what
> the heck...
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

They also have a hole in the middle. They hold well, but sure don't
do anything to keep the water out.

Dave

--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@y..., "Orr, Jamie" <jorr@b...> wrote:
>
> > For fasteners, do a google search on "rivets and roves".
>
> Do you think I could use el-cheapo aluminum pop rivets instead?
>
> I guess they come in stainless too, they have the advantage of
> being "one sided" and they do a pretty nice job at cinching.
>
> No need for an extra set of hands to hold an anvil while you use a
> ball peen hammer on the other side. They are not as pretty, but
what
> the heck...

--- In bolger@y..., "Orr, Jamie" <jorr@b...> wrote:

> For fasteners, do a google search on "rivets and roves".

Do you think I could use el-cheapo aluminum pop rivets instead?

I guess they come in stainless too, they have the advantage of
being "one sided" and they do a pretty nice job at cinching.

No need for an extra set of hands to hold an anvil while you use a
ball peen hammer on the other side. They are not as pretty, but what
the heck...

I am tempted to use the butt joint/fiberglass method
described by 
Kellan Hatch in the posting above, instead of a scarf
joint. I am 
afraid I will need every inch of 16 feet for the
curved strakes on 
this 15'4" boat. 

With a transom, you shouldn't have any problem, scarfs
would come out 15' 10", which may be as much as 6"
more than you need. I would imagine the scarfs would
be neater.

______________________________________________________________________
Only a few days left to file!http://taxes.yahoo.ca

> Also, comparing the PCB detailing with

"traditional lap-strake" in

> the H.I. Chapelle Boatbuilding book, calls

attention to the huge

> changes brought to boat building with 'modern

things' like plywood,

> [epoxy, etc.] 
> 
> I'd appreciate any advice about lap-strakes. 
>

Get a copy of Tom Hill's book out of the library, or
borrow his tape.

> Also, I guess it makes sense to scarf join the 8'

plywood end to end

> before cutting out the strakes. 
>

It would generally. The alternative would be slavish
mold making leading to what? Angled scarphs where the
stiffness of the ply by direction would vary accross
the joint.

epoxy in the laps instead of metal 
fasteners. 

Is it instead? In any case if you follow the hill
method somewhat, which might be tough in its entirety
since the Spur planks are very close, it is bonded
laps all the way.

It would be significantly easier to strip this boat,
possibly cheaper also.

______________________________________________________________________
Only a few days left to file!http://taxes.yahoo.ca

Ah, another lapstrake adventurer! I'm building Queen Mab using a
combination of techniques, but the basic system is presented in:
<http://fatguysbuildingboats.tripod.com/acornjournal.html>. The author
of this website *hates* Bolger, by the way. I enjoy the irony.

It's a pretty funny site, too,

porky

--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
> Just for the fun of it, and because I am curious about experimenting
> with [a first attempt at] lap-strake construction, I started lofting
> of Spur II from the offsets in Ch.11 of BWAOM. See scan:
>http://www.hallman.org/bolger/spur/spur.gif
>
> My first impression, after seeing the lines at full scale, is how
> big this boat is while weighing only 100 lbs. Seems like it will
> only take 6 [or 7] sheets of 1/4" plywood.
>
> Also, comparing the PCB detailing with "traditional lap-strake" in
> the H.I. Chapelle Boatbuilding book, calls attention to the huge
> changes brought to boat building with 'modern things' like plywood,
> [epoxy, etc.]
>
> I'd appreciate any advice about lap-strakes.
>
> Also, I guess it makes sense to scarf join the 8' plywood end to end
> before cutting out the strakes.
>
> And, has anybody used one of those cordless circular saws, which
seem
> well suited for cutting large smooth curves out of 1/4" plywood?
>
> And more, the meaning of the words 'garboard' and 'spiling' are
> dawning in my consciousness.
>
> Does anybody know a source of copper rivets and burrs? Then again,
I
> am inclined to try using epoxy in the laps instead of metal
fasteners.

--- In bolger@y..., "Orr, Jamie" <jorr@b...> wrote:

> joining the panels before cutting the strakes
> could be more expensive. there could be more waste

Part of what I find amazing about PCB's Spur II is that you get such
a beautiful boat out of a very small pile of materials. And if you
can believe the text in BWAOM, not too much labor either, 85 manhours.

I think I am favoring joining the panels first, IOW wasting material
to save labor.

Working with the full 16 feet would allow you to cast better curves I
bet. I recall reading, I think in PCB&F write up of Queen Mab, that
the aesthetics of creating fair curves in strakes that don't "hurt
your eyes" is very much an art.

I am tempted to use the butt joint/fiberglass method described by
Kellan Hatch in the posting above, instead of a scarf joint. I am
afraid I will need every inch of 16 feet for the curved strakes on
this 15'4" boat.

> you say, epoxy may be the way to go with plywood planking.

I recall reading somewhere, in MAIB probably, of a technique where
you allow the epoxy to be pulled into the gaps of the laps by
capillary action.

I haven't done lapstrake myself, yet, but I've come close once or twice.
From my reading I'd say that joining the panels before cutting the strakes
could be more expensive. The strakes will come out curved, so there could
be more waste unless you're able to nest them efficiently. As you spile
each strake, you might be able to use less plywood by laying out the strake
on two pieces, then joining after cutting out. Either way gives you some
good chances to screw up!

On the cordless saw question, again I've no personal experience, but I just
finished reading Chris K's (the founder of CLC whose name I can't spell)
book on building lap-stitch canoes. Unless I'm having a senior moment, he
said he liked the small circular saws, but found the cordless ones lacking
in power -- preferred something with a cord.

For fasteners, do a google search on "rivets and roves". By coincidence I
was looking for these last week and found lots of suppliers out there. As
you say, epoxy may be the way to go with plywood planking. Rivets seem to
be favoured for natural planking, though.

I hope to get re-started on my lapstrake sided Chamberlain dory skiff this
year. I cut out the frames, stem and sternpost in 1981, and these, with
planks and fasteners have followed me patiently through moves, career
changes, raising a family, and several other boats
since then!

Jamie Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: brucehallman [mailto:brucehallman@...]
Sent: April 24, 2002 3:47 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Lofting Spur II

I'd appreciate any advice about lap-strakes.

Also, I guess it makes sense to scarf join the 8' plywood end to end
before cutting out the strakes.

And, has anybody used one of those cordless circular saws, which seem
well suited for cutting large smooth curves out of 1/4" plywood?

And more, the meaning of the words 'garboard' and 'spiling' are
dawning in my consciousness.

Does anybody know a source of copper rivets and burrs? Then again, I
am inclined to try using epoxy in the laps instead of metal fasteners.

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Just for the fun of it, and because I am curious about experimenting
with [a first attempt at] lap-strake construction, I started lofting
of Spur II from the offsets in Ch.11 of BWAOM. See scan:
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/spur/spur.gif

My first impression, after seeing the lines at full scale, is how
big this boat is while weighing only 100 lbs. Seems like it will
only take 6 [or 7] sheets of 1/4" plywood.

Also, comparing the PCB detailing with "traditional lap-strake" in
the H.I. Chapelle Boatbuilding book, calls attention to the huge
changes brought to boat building with 'modern things' like plywood,
[epoxy, etc.]

I'd appreciate any advice about lap-strakes.

Also, I guess it makes sense to scarf join the 8' plywood end to end
before cutting out the strakes.

And, has anybody used one of those cordless circular saws, which seem
well suited for cutting large smooth curves out of 1/4" plywood?

And more, the meaning of the words 'garboard' and 'spiling' are
dawning in my consciousness.

Does anybody know a source of copper rivets and burrs? Then again, I
am inclined to try using epoxy in the laps instead of metal fasteners.