Re: [bolger] Re: Laminating Plywood

Why nail? just let the two plies float. Realisticaly
we want some load sharing, and if you don't use glue,
your nailing pattern might go from 1' centers to 3"
centers.

--- "Clyde S. Wisner" <clydewis@...> wrote:

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Maryland, Clyde

"Harry W. James" wrote:

> Clyde
>
> What part of the world are you in?
>
> HJ
>
> "Clyde S. Wisner" wrote:
> >
> I would like to find a source for luan door skin,
> >
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Wonder if the epoxy in the lamination adds some strength that tar doesn't. If you're not after strength as in "glulam", why put anything in there, just nail the layers together and seal the edges. Clyde

thomas dalzell wrote:

> Doesn't this stuff go liquid again with modest heat.
> Such as might arise in direct sunlight, or proximity
> to and engine.
>
> Also what is the hardness in terms of spreading loads,
> you want hard glue. In a three layer deal, you are
> out of the neutral axis, so it is more important than
> it would be with a two layer.
>
> --- chodges31711 <chodges@...> wrote:
>
> <HR>
> <html><body>
>
> <tt>
> --- In bolger@y..., Fritz Funk <fritzf@a...>
> wrote: 
> > >What kind of roofing glue does Buehler
> mention. Stuff like "Black 
> Jack" tar 
> > >for flashings? 
> > 
> > I think the correct term is "fibered roofing
> cement" - in the 
> northwest of 
> 
> The cement comes fibered and plain. You probably don't
> need the fiber 
> like you would on the outside of a roof. 
> 
> What about the old black stuff they glued down
> linoleum with? 
> Anything you use should be spread evenly with a
> notched trowel. they 
> come with different notch sizes. There are many
> flooring glues and 
> standard constuction techniques that are probably
> better than Black 
> Jack roof cement. For one thing I think Black Jack has
> to vent the 
> solvent to set - hard to do in the middle of a lam.
> 
> 
> </tt>
>
> 
>
> 
>
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> Bolger rules!!! 
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> dead horses 
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
> topic, and punctuate 
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
> snip all you like 
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
> - Unsubscribe:
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>
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> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Juneau is the epitome of cool humid climate. Homes here rot from the
inside if vapor barriers are not done properly. Liveaboards will lose
plywood cabin tops in a few years if they don't have diesel or wood heat
and very good powered ventilation.

HJ

David Romasco wrote:

>
> I agree in general, although a childhood in Florida and the Caribbean
> spent helping dig out rot in a string of boatyards may sour my view of
> wood somewhat. Heat and humidity will sometimes lay the best
> construction low. George is fortunate in that he lives in a humid but
> relatively cool climate.
>
> David Romasco
>
>

Clyde

What part of the world are you in?

HJ

"Clyde S. Wisner" wrote:

>

I would like to find a source for luan door skin,

>

Doesn't this stuff go liquid again with modest heat.
Such as might arise in direct sunlight, or proximity
to and engine.

Also what is the hardness in terms of spreading loads,
you want hard glue. In a three layer deal, you are
out of the neutral axis, so it is more important than
it would be with a two layer.

--- chodges31711 <chodges@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
--- In bolger@y..., Fritz Funk <fritzf@a...>
wrote:

> >What kind of roofing glue does Buehler

mention. Stuff like "Black 
Jack" tar

> >for flashings? 
> 
> I think the correct term is "fibered roofing

cement" - in the 
northwest of 
 
The cement comes fibered and plain. You probably don't
need the fiber 
like you would on the outside of a roof. 
 
What about the old black stuff they glued down
linoleum with? 
Anything you use should be spread evenly with a
notched trowel. they 
come with different notch sizes. There are many
flooring glues and 
standard constuction techniques that are probably
better than Black 
Jack roof cement. For one thing I think Black Jack has
to vent the 
solvent to set - hard to do in the middle of a lam.
 
 
</tt>

 



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topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
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--- In bolger@y..., Fritz Funk <fritzf@a...> wrote:

> >What kind of roofing glue does Buehler mention. Stuff like "Black

Jack" tar

> >for flashings?
>
> I think the correct term is "fibered roofing cement" - in the

northwest of

The cement comes fibered and plain. You probably don't need the fiber
like you would on the outside of a roof.

What about the old black stuff they glued down linoleum with?
Anything you use should be spread evenly with a notched trowel. they
come with different notch sizes. There are many flooring glues and
standard constuction techniques that are probably better than Black
Jack roof cement. For one thing I think Black Jack has to vent the
solvent to set - hard to do in the middle of a lam.

--- In bolger@y..., thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:

> I have never had any problem with his numbers. Are
> boats like Spur, now also backed-up with Susan's
> computer prowess?

I don't know. It sure seems Spur II was designed the 'old fashion
way' by PCB, certainly the drafting is done 'by hand'.

I have never had any problem with his numbers. Are
boats like Spur, now also backed-up with Susan's
computer prowess?

--- brucehallman <brucehallman@...> wrote:

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<tt>

> Vince Chew wrote:

> Re: prefitting: It is unnecessary. 
> I layed out the curvature from the expansions

provided [by PCB]

> They fit perfectly.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
 
That is what I am seeing so far from my study PCB's
table of offsets 
for Spur II. [The Kotick offsets had one error,
but he warns you of 
that in advance.] 
 
The Spur II offsets seem perfect so far to me. I
don't know why I 
bothered lofting it full scale; just read the numbers
from his 
table. 
 
PCB is a very creative guy, we all know that
already. Beyond that, 
I'm beginning to realize he is also very technically
accurate too. 
 
 
</tt>

 



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dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
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I agree. Cheap boats these days usualy mean
non-resistant wood species encapsulated with epoxy.
If you don't totaly encapsulate, then you have to be
careful about it since it can cause as much harm as
good, by limiting wood movement.

--- Jeff Blunck <boatbuilding@...> wrote:

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<tt>
Obviously there are as many ideas behind this thread
as there are solutions. 
One thing to remember is that many wooden boats built
100 years ago are 
still in the water going strong. Roofing tar,
tar, or what ever it's name 
was the main source of water proofing and gluing. 
 
Epoxy is not the only option, just one, and let me
say, probably the best. 
 
I have a tendancy to like George Buehlers
rantings. Basically he says epoxy 
is really good stuff, but good maintenance needs to be
done regardless of 
how it's assembled. Paint it once a year if it
needs it or not. Good air 
flow and dose of preservative once in awhile and a
wooden boat will last a 
lifetime. 
 
Jeff 
 
 
</tt>

 



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<tt>
Bolger rules!!! 
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dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
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Double diagonal ply might be a very high quality
product, but structurally it will be weakened by the
cutting into little discontinous bits of the core. If
you can just laminate the doorskins without the
diagonal assembly you will be better off. Also, as
regards the diagonal, it is only somthing like 70% as
strong as if it was set in-line (assuming 45 deg or
thereabouts).

It is relatively easy to find good doorskins around
here, most of the building centers sell it, but
plywood distributors seem much cheaper.

Some constant camber boats, and lots of the older cold
molded boats were made with DD ply. so it works fine
for planking.

--- "Clyde S. Wisner" <clydewis@...> wrote:

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<tt>
In 1088 or 65 I agree but in CDX, I don't. The best
ply I have used was made of layers of door skin, 
diagonaly, glued with exopy, as in cold molding. I
would like to find a source for luan door skin, so 
I can routinely make my own laminations. Clyde PS if
you screw 1/2" layers together with drywall 
screws, you can easily take the screws out when the
epoxy hardens. 
 
brucehallman wrote:

> --- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck"

<boatbuilding@g...> wrote:

> > On the Wyoming I will need to laminate

three

> > layers of 1/2" plywood for the

bottom.

> 
> I recall reading that PCB commonly chooses

1/2" plywood because he

> feels that boat shops prefer to stock just a

standard thickness of

> plywood. I think this is kind of a lame

reason because more often

> than not the plywood is bought with a custom

order for each boat,

> [but maybe I am misquoting PCB or I don't have a

clue!] :)

> 
> Standard American plywood comes in thicknesses up

to 1 1/8". To

> achieve a 1 1/2" thick panel on Wyoming two

sheets of 3/4" seems

> better than three 1/2" sheets. 
> 
> One would think that a plywood factory can

achieve better glue joint

> laminations than a home builder, so starting with

thicker plywood

> seems logical. 
> 
> 
> Bolger rules!!! 
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or

flogging dead horses

> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay

on topic, and punctuate

> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your

posts, snip all you like

> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box

1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349

> - Unsubscribe:

bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

> 
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Bolger rules!!! 
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- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
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______________________________________________________________________
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I agree in general, although a childhood in Florida and the Caribbean
spent helping dig out rot in a string of boatyards may sour my view of
wood somewhat. Heat and humidity will sometimes lay the best
construction low. George is fortunate in that he lives in a humid but
relatively cool climate.

David Romasco

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Blunck [mailto:boatbuilding@...]
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:36 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Laminating Plywood

Obviously there are as many ideas behind this thread as there are
solutions.
One thing to remember is that many wooden boats built 100 years ago are
still in the water going strong. Roofing tar, tar, or what ever it's
name
was the main source of water proofing and gluing.

Epoxy is not the only option, just one, and let me say, probably the
best.

I have a tendancy to like George Buehlers rantings. Basically he says
epoxy
is really good stuff, but good maintenance needs to be done regardless
of
how it's assembled. Paint it once a year if it needs it or not. Good
air
flow and dose of preservative once in awhile and a wooden boat will last
a
lifetime.

Jeff

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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Obviously there are as many ideas behind this thread as there are solutions.
One thing to remember is that many wooden boats built 100 years ago are
still in the water going strong. Roofing tar, tar, or what ever it's name
was the main source of water proofing and gluing.

Epoxy is not the only option, just one, and let me say, probably the best.

I have a tendancy to like George Buehlers rantings. Basically he says epoxy
is really good stuff, but good maintenance needs to be done regardless of
how it's assembled. Paint it once a year if it needs it or not. Good air
flow and dose of preservative once in awhile and a wooden boat will last a
lifetime.

Jeff

> Vince Chew wrote:

> Re: prefitting: It is unnecessary.
> I layed out the curvature from the expansions provided [by PCB]
> They fit perfectly.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That is what I am seeing so far from my study PCB's table of offsets
for Spur II. [The Kotick offsets had one error, but he warns you of
that in advance.]

The Spur II offsets seem perfect so far to me. I don't know why I
bothered lofting it full scale; just read the numbers from his
table.

PCB is a very creative guy, we all know that already. Beyond that,
I'm beginning to realize he is also very technically accurate too.

Dakota also has 3 layers of 1/2" for the bottom plus 4 layers in the
center shoe. Because of the 14" rocker, I decided to splice the bottom
panels into 4' x 40' sheets so they would bend easier (think pencil vs.
fly rod). I used screws and epoxy thickened with wood flour and silica
spread with a notched trowel. I predrilled the screw holes. It was very
reassuring as I tightened each screw to see the goop squeeze up through
the adjacent empty screw holes. I found that for screwing the first
layer into the second, 3/4" screws didn't bite well. I had already
glassed and prefinished the bottom of the first panel and didn't want to
pierce the bottom surface, so I cut off a bunch of longer deck screws.
They needed a tap with the hammer to start, but, being fatter, they
gripped better (experiment with various fasteners before you start
spreading glue).

Re: prefitting: It is unnecessary. I stacked all of the layers for both
sides with the edges aligned. I layed out the curvature from the
expansions provided in the plans. Then I cut all six 4' x 40' panels to
shape at one time with a circular saw. They fit perfectly.

Vince Chew

I might quote Bolger, "The hull is the last place you should try to save
money."

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Laminating Plywood

> > I think the correct term is "fibered roofing cement" - in the northwest
of
> > the US the common brand is "Atco" (presumably Atco is still around -
> > haven't bought any in a few years). Buehler talks about exactly this
> > application of bedding layers of 1/2 plywood on a boat bottom in
"Backyard
> > Boatbuilding", p. 126. Great reading and colorful too. About laminating
> > the bottom in this section, he says "praise epoxy but pass the nails".
>
> My assumption at this point is that one should test fit all the pieces and
> temporarily screw them together. Trace the outline and cut, then
> disassemble and glue with this stuff. I can just imagine what it would do
> to a saw blade.
>
> This is not a problem as that is how I do it anyway to save epoxy and to
> make sure it's right. Hummm....I may just try it.
>
> My ex-brother-in-law is a roofing designer and contractor in NE. I called
> him and he thought it was an excellent idea. After a month of setting up,
> he swears you'd never get the plywood apart with totally destroying it.
> Completely water proof, bug proof, the solvents as it dries would soak
into
> the wood helping make it rot proof.
>
> It would also allow some minimal flexing for a week or two before becoming
> to stiff. This is good when trying to mate a 3 ply bottom to the side
> panels.
>
> I wonder how bad it would stink up a garage / house?
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

You bought marine plywood, and are going to laminate it with roofing cement?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Laminating Plywood

> > I think the correct term is "fibered roofing cement" - in the northwest
of
> > the US the common brand is "Atco" (presumably Atco is still around -
> > haven't bought any in a few years). Buehler talks about exactly this
> > application of bedding layers of 1/2 plywood on a boat bottom in
"Backyard
> > Boatbuilding", p. 126. Great reading and colorful too. About laminating
> > the bottom in this section, he says "praise epoxy but pass the nails".
>
> My assumption at this point is that one should test fit all the pieces and
> temporarily screw them together. Trace the outline and cut, then
> disassemble and glue with this stuff. I can just imagine what it would do
> to a saw blade.
>
> This is not a problem as that is how I do it anyway to save epoxy and to
> make sure it's right. Hummm....I may just try it.
>
> My ex-brother-in-law is a roofing designer and contractor in NE. I called
> him and he thought it was an excellent idea. After a month of setting up,
> he swears you'd never get the plywood apart with totally destroying it.
> Completely water proof, bug proof, the solvents as it dries would soak
into
> the wood helping make it rot proof.
>
> It would also allow some minimal flexing for a week or two before becoming
> to stiff. This is good when trying to mate a 3 ply bottom to the side
> panels.
>
> I wonder how bad it would stink up a garage / house?
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Keep in mind that polyurethane glues fill gaps by a foaming action.
Over the span of a sheet of plywood that is a lot of pressure. You may
save money with polyurethane glue but it's a lot easier to spread
epoxy with a notched trowell than to squeeze out and try to spread
polyurethane.
Bob Chamberland

--- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:so I'm
thinking of saving lot's of time by using the polyurethane

> glues such as "Gorilla Glue"? At 1/2 ounce per square foot for

these glues,

> no real cost savings but lot's of time.

> I think the correct term is "fibered roofing cement" - in the northwest of
> the US the common brand is "Atco" (presumably Atco is still around -
> haven't bought any in a few years). Buehler talks about exactly this
> application of bedding layers of 1/2 plywood on a boat bottom in "Backyard
> Boatbuilding", p. 126. Great reading and colorful too. About laminating
> the bottom in this section, he says "praise epoxy but pass the nails".

My assumption at this point is that one should test fit all the pieces and
temporarily screw them together. Trace the outline and cut, then
disassemble and glue with this stuff. I can just imagine what it would do
to a saw blade.

This is not a problem as that is how I do it anyway to save epoxy and to
make sure it's right. Hummm....I may just try it.

My ex-brother-in-law is a roofing designer and contractor in NE. I called
him and he thought it was an excellent idea. After a month of setting up,
he swears you'd never get the plywood apart with totally destroying it.
Completely water proof, bug proof, the solvents as it dries would soak into
the wood helping make it rot proof.

It would also allow some minimal flexing for a week or two before becoming
to stiff. This is good when trying to mate a 3 ply bottom to the side
panels.

I wonder how bad it would stink up a garage / house?

Jeff

In 1088 or 65 I agree but in CDX, I don't. The best ply I have used was made of layers of door skin,
diagonaly, glued with exopy, as in cold molding. I would like to find a source for luan door skin, so
I can routinely make my own laminations. Clyde PS if you screw 1/2" layers together with drywall
screws, you can easily take the screws out when the epoxy hardens.

brucehallman wrote:

> --- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> > On the Wyoming I will need to laminate three
> > layers of 1/2" plywood for the bottom.
>
> I recall reading that PCB commonly chooses 1/2" plywood because he
> feels that boat shops prefer to stock just a standard thickness of
> plywood. I think this is kind of a lame reason because more often
> than not the plywood is bought with a custom order for each boat,
> [but maybe I am misquoting PCB or I don't have a clue!] :)
>
> Standard American plywood comes in thicknesses up to 1 1/8". To
> achieve a 1 1/2" thick panel on Wyoming two sheets of 3/4" seems
> better than three 1/2" sheets.
>
> One would think that a plywood factory can achieve better glue joint
> laminations than a home builder, so starting with thicker plywood
> seems logical.
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I used a polyurathane construction adhesive in glueing some floor bracing in my house const project,
a couple of galvanized deck screws and glue. It was exposed to rain and the elements for over a year.
I had to remove several pieces when installing lights. When I removed the screws, the wood braces
fell off, 5 out of 6 times. Glue did not adhere. Clyde

Jeff Blunck wrote:

> On the Wyoming I will need to laminate three layers of 1/2" plywood for the
> bottom. I have done this before using epoxy slightly thickened and is
> probably an excellant way to do this but.......
>
> Mr. Bolger calls for a boat nail every square foot with a note that "two is
>
> Maybe a good polyurethane construction adhesive will work too. This glue
> will not be exposed to water so water proof is not a requirement, water
> rI can't see a down side of this and the upside is the speed of assembly.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>What kind of roofing glue does Buehler mention. Stuff like "Black Jack" tar
>for flashings?

I think the correct term is "fibered roofing cement" - in the northwest of
the US the common brand is "Atco" (presumably Atco is still around -
haven't bought any in a few years). Buehler talks about exactly this
application of bedding layers of 1/2 plywood on a boat bottom in "Backyard
Boatbuilding", p. 126. Great reading and colorful too. About laminating
the bottom in this section, he says "praise epoxy but pass the nails".

In my experience PL Premium (in the caulking tube) or the more liquid
Gorilla -style glues, while wonderful stuff, set up way too quickly for
laminating jobs. I found PL premium (in the tube) is too thick - even for
spreading with toothed trowel, and it does not ooze to fill in voids or
level out very well over large spaces. Great stuff for bonding and bedding
dimensional members, but not for laminating. Not sure what you would do if
it started to kick on you before you had the laminates tightened up, but I
imagine it would be a real mess to deal with at that point. With the
roofing cement you've got plenty of work time and it would slather on real
quickly out of the 5 gal buckets with a giant toothed trowel. With a screw
gun or nailing team going, you could be done real quickly!

--Fritz

I know I get better joints than the factory does. I
am pretty much stuck using epoxy, and when you look at
the side of one of those joints, it is very visible,
unlike the often dry plywood joints. The result of
deep penetration. You have solid plastic in the
region of the joint. I wish all my factory ply looked
like that. But anyway your general point is correct.
Certainly cost wise it is often more expensive to use
extra lams, and certainly come trouble.

>One would think that a plywood factory can achieve

better glue joint 
laminations than a home builder, so starting with
thicker plywood 
seems logical. 
<

______________________________________________________________________
Games, Movies, Music & Sports!http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

Also, if you have to bend it forward, you are going to
be pre-stressing the ply more with 3/4, which means it
won't be as stiff, because the water pressure, or
things you are hitting will be essentialy returning it
to its relaxed position. Lots of little lams vs
several big = less spring back.

---stephensonhw@...wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
In a message dated 03-05-02 6:07:42 AM E. Australia
Standard Time, 
brucehallman@...writes:

> I recall reading that PCB commonly chooses

1/2" plywood because he

> feels that boat shops prefer to stock just a

standard thickness of

> plywood. I think this is kind of a lame

reason because more often

> than not the plywood is bought with a custom

order for each boat,

> [but maybe I am misquoting PCB or I don't have a

clue!] :)

> 
> Standard American plywood comes in thicknesses up

to 1 1/8". To

> achieve a 1 1/2" thick panel on Wyoming two

sheets of 3/4" seems

> better than three 1/2" sheets. 
> 
> One would think that a plywood factory can

achieve better glue joint

> laminations than a home builder, so starting with

thicker plywood

> seems logical. 
> 
> 
>

... as long as you can get it over the curves.
Three-quarter inch is a lot 
stiffer than 1/2" 
 
Howard 
 
 
[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed] 
 
</tt>

 



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<tt>
Bolger rules!!! 
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 

 
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>


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______________________________________________________________________
Games, Movies, Music & Sports!http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

In a message dated 03-05-02 6:18:54 AM E. Australia Standard Time,
stephensonhw@...writes:

> > One would think that a plywood factory can achieve better glue joint
> > laminations than a home builder, so starting with thicker plywood
> > seems logical.
> >
> >
> >
>
> ... as long as you can get it over the curves. Three-quarter inch is a lot
> stiffer than 1/2"
>
> ...but of course the bottom is practically flat, so no problem. But I guess
> three layers would be stronger if you were just butting the sheets
> together.

Howard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> One would think that a plywood factory can achieve better glue joint
> laminations than a home builder, so starting with thicker plywood
> seems logical.

I agree, unfortunately I own 80 sheets of Meranti that's 1/2".

Jeff

In a message dated 03-05-02 6:07:42 AM E. Australia Standard Time,
brucehallman@...writes:

> I recall reading that PCB commonly chooses 1/2" plywood because he
> feels that boat shops prefer to stock just a standard thickness of
> plywood. I think this is kind of a lame reason because more often
> than not the plywood is bought with a custom order for each boat,
> [but maybe I am misquoting PCB or I don't have a clue!] :)
>
> Standard American plywood comes in thicknesses up to 1 1/8". To
> achieve a 1 1/2" thick panel on Wyoming two sheets of 3/4" seems
> better than three 1/2" sheets.
>
> One would think that a plywood factory can achieve better glue joint
> laminations than a home builder, so starting with thicker plywood
> seems logical.
>
>
>

... as long as you can get it over the curves. Three-quarter inch is a lot
stiffer than 1/2"

Howard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:

> On the Wyoming I will need to laminate three
> layers of 1/2" plywood for the bottom.

I recall reading that PCB commonly chooses 1/2" plywood because he
feels that boat shops prefer to stock just a standard thickness of
plywood. I think this is kind of a lame reason because more often
than not the plywood is bought with a custom order for each boat,
[but maybe I am misquoting PCB or I don't have a clue!] :)

Standard American plywood comes in thicknesses up to 1 1/8". To
achieve a 1 1/2" thick panel on Wyoming two sheets of 3/4" seems
better than three 1/2" sheets.

One would think that a plywood factory can achieve better glue joint
laminations than a home builder, so starting with thicker plywood
seems logical.

I've been using polyuethane adhesives in business for a long
time...There is a great range of quality on the market...In my
opinion, Gorilla Glue is tops for predictable open time and long-term
adhesion. Being 100% waterproof after cure, there's no worries about
moisture intrusion. Poly glue prices seem to prove the old
adage, "You'll get what you pay for...." Good luck.

Lee/Wash. DC
(Future Tennessee builder)

--- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> On the Wyoming I will need to laminate three layers of 1/2" plywood
for the
> bottom. I have done this before using epoxy slightly thickened and
is
> probably an excellant way to do this but.......
>
> Mr. Bolger calls for a boat nail every square foot with a note
that "two is
> even better" to help eliminate any "holidays" in the glue. These
nails stay
> in place so I'm thinking of saving lot's of time by using the
polyurethane
> glues such as "Gorilla Glue"? At 1/2 ounce per square foot for
these glues,
> no real cost savings but lot's of time.
>
> Maybe a good polyurethane construction adhesive will work too.
This glue
> will not be exposed to water so water proof is not a requirement,
water
> resistant should be okay.
>
> I can't see a down side of this and the upside is the speed of
assembly.
>
> Jeff

> What are the new plans like? He is currently
> self-distributing a lot of his stuff, what kind of
> details are people getting?
> --- Jeff Blunck <boatbuilding@...> wrote:

I have the Tennessee plans and I agree, you had better have some experience
or you could get lost.

Unlike the Tennessee plans, the Wyo seems very complete. 6 sheets overall
though the updated Aft cabin version is not detailed for bulkhead C, but the
original version is good. The building key is complete and 6 pages long.
An attached letter filled in some blanks.

The only details left out are the cabinetry and how to build the windows
including the windshield. On asking, he simply said to build as intuition
dictated as those details are usually left to the builders preference. Only
statement was that it would be prudent to have them open inwards because of
close quarters when docked and rafted but to do what I deemed feasible.

As far a cabinets, you can get most of what you need from a ruler and common
sense.

Jeff

I hear what you are saying, but on the other hand,
Bolger can't be measured by what he leaves out. In a
lot of his designs he leaves almost everything out,
assuming builders know how to build. My tenneesse
plans included almost no information, on any aspect of
buiding. That's fine by me, but I have to assume he
wanted some glue somewhere. A lot of his earlier work
contained almost no information, and was slanted
towards the prefered building systems of his
distributors, who often authored the details
themselves. So again, it isn't bolger setting out the
details.

What are the new plans like? He is currently
self-distributing a lot of his stuff, what kind of
details are people getting?
--- Jeff Blunck <boatbuilding@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
Bolger only mentions Epoxy for waterproofing and
fiberglass for abrasion 
protection. No mention of epoxy for any
structural glues. Since the Wyo is 
really nailed and bolted together the polyurethane
glues should be fine. In 
fact the rub rail is 5 inches thick laminated with
cedar using 1/4" bolts on 
24 inch off setting centers, not glue. Bedded
with marine caulking. I can 
see this would make for easy removal on repairs.
I'll probably lay on a 
coat or two of epoxy just in case. 
 
What kind of roofing glue does Buehler mention.
Stuff like "Black Jack" tar 
for flashings? 
 
Jeff 
 
I

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fritz Funk"
<fritzf@...> 
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com> 
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:56 AM 
Subject: Re: [bolger] Laminating Plywood 
 
 
> When contemplating Wyoming's bottom I'd thought
of using roofing compound 
> before, given there are lots of fastenings.
Roofing compounds get quite 
> adhesive after awhile (Buehler likes the stuff
for this reason) and have 
> experimented with it some - like Buehler says,
you can't pry it apart with 
> a crowbar after a few weeks. Seems like the
needed function is as much as 
> bedding compound as adhesive, given all the
nails. 
> 
> I have a 1909 surfboat that's a sort of
"plywood cold molding" of the 
day - 
> 2 layers of 3/8 inch mahogany, held together only
with copper rivets, with 
> white lead on canvas between the layers for
bedding. Its incredibly, 
> unbelievably, strong. Wonder if Bolger
thinks a high grade adhesive is 
> necessary for Wyoming? 
> 
> Roofing compound by the 5 gal bucket is very
inexpensive and easily 
glopped 
> on. 
> 
> --Fritz 
> 
> 
> 
> Bolger rules!!! 
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
flogging dead horses 
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay
on topic, and punctuate 
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your
posts, snip all you like 
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box
1209, Gloucester, MA, 
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
> - Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a> 
> 
> 
 
</tt>

 



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<tt>
Bolger rules!!! 
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 

 
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______________________________________________________________________
Games, Movies, Music & Sports!http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

If memory serves, he calls it 'bear shit'. Pretty evocative,
really......

David Romasco

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Blunck [mailto:boatbuilding@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 1:25 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Laminating Plywood

Bolger only mentions Epoxy for waterproofing and fiberglass for abrasion
protection. No mention of epoxy for any structural glues. Since the
Wyo is
really nailed and bolted together the polyurethane glues should be fine.
In
fact the rub rail is 5 inches thick laminated with cedar using 1/4"
bolts on
24 inch off setting centers, not glue. Bedded with marine caulking. I
can
see this would make for easy removal on repairs. I'll probably lay on a
coat or two of epoxy just in case.

What kind of roofing glue does Buehler mention. Stuff like "Black Jack"
tar
for flashings?

Jeff

I

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fritz Funk" <fritzf@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Laminating Plywood

> When contemplating Wyoming's bottom I'd thought of using roofing
compound
> before, given there are lots of fastenings. Roofing compounds get
quite
> adhesive after awhile (Buehler likes the stuff for this reason) and
have
> experimented with it some - like Buehler says, you can't pry it apart
with
> a crowbar after a few weeks. Seems like the needed function is as
much as
> bedding compound as adhesive, given all the nails.
>
> I have a 1909 surfboat that's a sort of "plywood cold molding" of the
day -
> 2 layers of 3/8 inch mahogany, held together only with copper rivets,
with
> white lead on canvas between the layers for bedding. Its incredibly,
> unbelievably, strong. Wonder if Bolger thinks a high grade adhesive
is
> necessary for Wyoming?
>
> Roofing compound by the 5 gal bucket is very inexpensive and easily
glopped
> on.
>
> --Fritz
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't see the speed side. You just spill a pile of
epoxy on the ply, both sides, and spread it with a
squeegee, you don't need fillers, and I would bag it,
no nails. Gorrilla glue would work too, but I don't
see the advantage when one considers the requirement
for moisture, and I think it is almost more likely to
kick at the wrong time than epoxy. Construction
adhessive would seem positively harder to spread. If
you intend to mix epoxy with filler, just do it in a
bucket with a metal mixing head. The right one even
keeps down the dust. I think I got mine from
fiberglast distributors.

You can say it is never going to get wet, but
realisticaly that water can get in anywhere with
throughhulls, bad driving, or whatever...

We seem in constant search on this site for ever more
obscure ways of acheiving things. I understand that
up to a point, particularly if one is fighting budget
or allergies or something. But really, why not just
stick to the plans for the most part (except for my
bagging idea, now there is a really fine one...). If
I ever bought one of these things from someone, I
think I would just like to know it was 1088/WEST
throughout, with standard details. I really don't
want to have to deal with the fact that you used fish
glue above the waterline, and corn pasta for fillets.

Think you will never sell it? That's what i said to
before Air Canada flew my ass into a tree on landing.

--- Jeff Blunck <boatbuilding@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
On the Wyoming I will need to laminate three layers of
1/2" plywood for the 
bottom. I have done this before using epoxy
slightly thickened and is 
probably an excellant way to do this but....... 
 
Mr. Bolger calls for a boat nail every square foot
with a note that "two is 
even better" to help eliminate any
"holidays" in the glue. These nails
stay 
in place so I'm thinking of saving lot's of time by
using the polyurethane 
glues such as "Gorilla Glue"? At 1/2
ounce per square foot for these glues, 
no real cost savings but lot's of time. 
 
Maybe a good polyurethane construction adhesive will
work too. This glue 
will not be exposed to water so water proof is not a
requirement, water 
resistant should be okay. 
 
I can't see a down side of this and the upside is the
speed of assembly. 
 
Jeff 
 
 
 
</tt>

 



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<tt>
Bolger rules!!! 
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses 
- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
topic, and punctuate 
- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 
- Unsubscribe:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
 

 
<tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
of Service</a>.</tt>


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______________________________________________________________________
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Bolger only mentions Epoxy for waterproofing and fiberglass for abrasion
protection. No mention of epoxy for any structural glues. Since the Wyo is
really nailed and bolted together the polyurethane glues should be fine. In
fact the rub rail is 5 inches thick laminated with cedar using 1/4" bolts on
24 inch off setting centers, not glue. Bedded with marine caulking. I can
see this would make for easy removal on repairs. I'll probably lay on a
coat or two of epoxy just in case.

What kind of roofing glue does Buehler mention. Stuff like "Black Jack" tar
for flashings?

Jeff

I

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fritz Funk" <fritzf@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Laminating Plywood

> When contemplating Wyoming's bottom I'd thought of using roofing compound
> before, given there are lots of fastenings. Roofing compounds get quite
> adhesive after awhile (Buehler likes the stuff for this reason) and have
> experimented with it some - like Buehler says, you can't pry it apart with
> a crowbar after a few weeks. Seems like the needed function is as much as
> bedding compound as adhesive, given all the nails.
>
> I have a 1909 surfboat that's a sort of "plywood cold molding" of the
day -
> 2 layers of 3/8 inch mahogany, held together only with copper rivets, with
> white lead on canvas between the layers for bedding. Its incredibly,
> unbelievably, strong. Wonder if Bolger thinks a high grade adhesive is
> necessary for Wyoming?
>
> Roofing compound by the 5 gal bucket is very inexpensive and easily
glopped
> on.
>
> --Fritz
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

A concern I would have would be spreading the urethane evenly enough
to avoid lumps or hoildays. The thicker urethanes in a caulking tubes
don't seem that spreadable. I know some come in gallon and five
gallon
tubs, perhaps they are thinner and spreadable? The poly glues I've
never seen, maybe that's what your looking at?

Yesterday I was reading the labels on the PL premium and Polyseal
urethene adhesives and sealants. One of them, and I don't recall
which, did say that a metal tool wetted with mineral spirits could be
used for tooling the stuff.

Rick

- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:

> On the Wyoming I will need to laminate three layers of 1/2" plywood

for the

> bottom. I have done this before using epoxy slightly thickened and

> probably an excellant way to do this but.......
>
> Mr. Bolger calls for a boat nail every square foot with a note that

"two is

> even better" to help eliminate any "holidays" in the glue. These

nails stay

> in place so I'm thinking of saving lot's of time by using the

polyurethane

> glues such as "Gorilla Glue"? At 1/2 ounce per square foot for

these glues,

> no real cost savings but lot's of time.
>
> Maybe a good polyurethane construction adhesive will work too.

This
glue

> will not be exposed to water so water proof is not a requirement,

water

> resistant should be okay.
>
> I can't see a down side of this and the upside is the speed of

assembly.

>
> Jeff

When contemplating Wyoming's bottom I'd thought of using roofing compound
before, given there are lots of fastenings. Roofing compounds get quite
adhesive after awhile (Buehler likes the stuff for this reason) and have
experimented with it some - like Buehler says, you can't pry it apart with
a crowbar after a few weeks. Seems like the needed function is as much as
bedding compound as adhesive, given all the nails.

I have a 1909 surfboat that's a sort of "plywood cold molding" of the day -
2 layers of 3/8 inch mahogany, held together only with copper rivets, with
white lead on canvas between the layers for bedding. Its incredibly,
unbelievably, strong. Wonder if Bolger thinks a high grade adhesive is
necessary for Wyoming?

Roofing compound by the 5 gal bucket is very inexpensive and easily glopped
on.

--Fritz

On the Wyoming I will need to laminate three layers of 1/2" plywood for the
bottom. I have done this before using epoxy slightly thickened and is
probably an excellant way to do this but.......

Mr. Bolger calls for a boat nail every square foot with a note that "two is
even better" to help eliminate any "holidays" in the glue. These nails stay
in place so I'm thinking of saving lot's of time by using the polyurethane
glues such as "Gorilla Glue"? At 1/2 ounce per square foot for these glues,
no real cost savings but lot's of time.

Maybe a good polyurethane construction adhesive will work too. This glue
will not be exposed to water so water proof is not a requirement, water
resistant should be okay.

I can't see a down side of this and the upside is the speed of assembly.

Jeff