Re: Helena Mt. to New Orleans

Here's the boat.
http://www.gartsideboats.com/catrow2.php#pedal

--- In bolger@y..., "lulalake_1999" <lulalake_1999@y...> wrote:

> William Least Heat Moon also wrote another "journey" book called Blue
> highways. It's about traveling on secondary routes around the US.
>
> The secondary roads are generally represented in blue on most maps.
> He has a hilarious method for rating restaurants. Those with the most
> calendars on the walls are the best. <snip>

Hah! My father gave me a tip for choosing restaurants which has never
failed me:

When you're in a new place, and need to find a restaurant, look for
one that has more than 1/2 of its population made up of senior
citizens. This ALWAYS means two things:

A) The food is cheap
B) The food is good

=) Thought I would share.

> I was thinking of doing the above to a Glousterman
> Dory like
>http://home1.gte.net/jspira/boatbuilding/hd_glou.htm
>

Sounds similar to the Madrigal design. Don't know
much about it, other that what's on the site, but it
sounds kinda like a dory-thing (with the pointy bow
chopped off) with leeboards and a mast.

http://home.freeuk.com/colinpowell/

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sounds a little like you were contemplating a
Superbrick... don't know why, but that design has
always intrigued me.

> > add a mast and a leeboard
> > for the big waters (mainly a down-wind trip, so up
> wind performance
> > isn't too mandatory, compared to a sailboat) and
> you are set.

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William Least Heat Moon also wrote another "journey" book called Blue
highways. It's about traveling on secondary routes around the US.

The secondary roads are generally represented in blue on most maps.
He has a hilarious method for rating restaurants. Those with the most
calendars on the walls are the best. Trust me I have tried his rating
system and it works so when you get a chance to stop and dine on
local haute American cuisine on your trip, check how many calendars
are n the walls of any restaurant. If there is only one go somewhere
else.

Also read this book before embarking!

The Raban book is 'Old Glory.' Between the two, I have the impression that tows are a
constant hazard on the Mississippi; not so many on the Missouri, but lots of deadheads
first to last.

When Jim Betts wrote about a Mississippi cruise, he said, "The current on the river runs
about 6mph. Go as slow as you please, but be ready to throttle-up when you meet one of
those ten acre tows." Maybe the chart show a lot of backwaters and sloughs that may be
suitable for a very small boat.

Least Heat-Moon had a support team with trailer to help him 'round the dams.

Mark

jhkohnen@...wrote:

>
> Bruce-
>
> Read _River Horse_ by William Least Heat Moon, he went up the Missouri,
> mostly in a C-Dory, a few years ago. Some of the impoundments are _big_,
> and windy. I think they'd be a bit scary in a canoe, as would some of the
> Mississippi (read a book by Jonathan Raban, whose title I don't recall, for
> an account of a relatively recent voyage down the Mississippi by
> motorboat). I'd choose a real boat of some sort, but it'd have to be a
> light one because of the portages around the dams.
>
> You'll have quite an adventure!
>
> --
> John <jkohnen@...>
>http://www.boat-links.com/
> I cannot help thinking that the people with motor boats miss a great deal.
> If they would only keep to rowboats or canoes, and use oar or paddle...
> they would get infinitely more benefit than by having their work done for
> them by gasoline. <Theodore Roosevelt>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject tohttp://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Bruce-

Read _River Horse_ by William Least Heat Moon, he went up the Missouri,
mostly in a C-Dory, a few years ago. Some of the impoundments are _big_,
and windy. I think they'd be a bit scary in a canoe, as would some of the
Mississippi (read a book by Jonathan Raban, whose title I don't recall, for
an account of a relatively recent voyage down the Mississippi by
motorboat). I'd choose a real boat of some sort, but it'd have to be a
light one because of the portages around the dams.

You'll have quite an adventure!

--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
I cannot help thinking that the people with motor boats miss a great deal.
If they would only keep to rowboats or canoes, and use oar or paddle...
they would get infinitely more benefit than by having their work done for
them by gasoline. <Theodore Roosevelt>

> >Still
> > room for a solar panel and motor.
>
> Well at least you are persistent :) And Solar power does fit in to the
> powered by nature concept. :)
>

Actually, I just fell in love with a 12volt microwave oven...popcorn
anytime!!!

Curtis {=-{>

Howdy Bruce!
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Howdy Curtis

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 8:47 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Helena Mt. to New Orleans

> Heck, I don't know why I didn't think of it before. Everyone without a
> motor up here seems to be in a drift boat.

(snip)

> add a mast and a leeboard
> for the big waters (mainly a down-wind trip, so up wind performance
> isn't too mandatory, compared to a sailboat) and you are set.

I was thinking of doing the above to a Glousterman Dory like
http://home1.gte.net/jspira/boatbuilding/hd_glou.htm

>Still
> room for a solar panel and motor.

Well at least you are persistent :) And Solar power does fit in to the
powered by nature concept. :)

See Ya

Have Fun

Bruce

http://www.cableone.net/bcanderson/

I wouldn't call the "3 years in a twelve foot boat"
boat a drift boat, but its isn't all that far off. And
has some of the feature you describe.

--- Curtis Barrow <cbarrow@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
Heck, I don't know why I didn't think of it
before. Everyone without a 
motor up here seems to be in a drift boat. 
 
They row OK from what I have been told, are relatively
shallow drafted, 

______________________________________________________________________
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Heck, I don't know why I didn't think of it before. Everyone without a
motor up here seems to be in a drift boat.

They row OK from what I have been told, are relatively shallow drafted,
they are big enought to carry all that is needed, and to sleep in. With
a bit of planning one could make a cuddy cabin for the front, at least
big enough for your gear. Camp kitchen stuff on one side, and a berth
on the other, out in the open, with a tent setup for when it rains (if
it ever does...it is snowing here right now). add a mast and a leeboard
for the big waters (mainly a down-wind trip, so up wind performance
isn't too manditory, compared to a sailboat) and you are set. Still
room for a solar panel and motor.

Curtis in snowy Great Falls, /\/\ontana! {=-{>
--
oooOOOOOOOOOOO
o ____ ______________ __|--|__
Y_,_|[]| --+++++ | iba# 6157! | | [][] |
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/oo--OO oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo
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New, Improved & Restored!!!
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--- In bolger@y..., "futabachan" <futabachan@y...> wrote:

> The question is: do you optimize for performance and comfort on
> the water, or for easy portaging on the portage trail? ...
> A light Rob Roy ...

John MacGregor, who pioneered canoe cruises like this, made three:

First, canals of Europe: Year 1865
Canoe size 18 feet by 28 inches

Second, the Baltic: Year 1870?
Canoe size 14 feet by 26 inches

Third, the River Jordan: Year 1875?
Canoe size 14 feet by 24 inches

That is a lot of cruising; and each time he revised to a smaller
canoe. For him at least, portaging was the problem.

This tells me, small is beautiful.

I don't know the terrain here, but if it is flat
enough that you can just drive an amphicar the whole
way, then you have some options (engine prohibitins
aside). But you have to be careful what you wish for.
You could easily end up turning a 1 mile portage with
60#s into 8 miles with 50# half the distance. Who am
I to say that isn't a brilliant idea, but I doubt the
area around a dam is the area I most want to recross 8
times.

I haven't heard of any options so far that would
paddle better than a canoe, which in fact carries with
it the option of rowing and double blade paddling
also. It is also far and away the most nimble in
rapids, though that is also terrain specific. A sea
Kayak would be faster, and a good choice as long as
portaging, and sitting don't present particular
problems. If there is any significant amount of
portaging I would take an open boat any day.

--- futabachan <futabachan@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>

> The eror would be 200#! If you have to

carry a boat,

> you are talking probably 4 trips on each portage,

what

> a nightmare!

There are a lot of variables here, actually -- if
you're using 
a dolly or portage wheels, you can dolly that over
sufficiently 
flat terrain in a single trip. The ground would
need to be 
firm enough (there's a scene in _River Horse_ where
_Nikawa_'s 
trailer nearly gets stuck in the mud), your wheels
would need to 
be big and fat enough, and the portage would need to
be short 
enough, but you could do it. I *think* that
those conditions 
hold for most of the short portages around Missouri
River dams, 
but I'd hate to run into an exception to that with all
that gear. 
OTOH, the Missouri River portages would all be short
enough that 
you *could* make four trips if you had to. 
 
The other question would be whether you really need
all that 
stuff with you. You probably don't, but at least
some subset 
of it might make for a more comfortable trip.

> I would consider just the standard open 
> canoe, it has been used on every part of NA, and

try

> to keep your pack as light as possible.

Check out Ray

> Jardines stuff.

The question is: do you optimize for performance and
comfort on 
the water, or for easy portaging on the portage
trail? And there 
are portage trails and portage trails -- portaging
around a dam 
for less than a mile is a very different problem than
portaging 
20-40 miles across a mountain pass, portaging along a
paved road 
is a very different problem than portaging along a
steep, narrow 
trail with lots of blowdowns and overhanging branches,
and 
extracting your boat from an area with an access road
and boat 
ramp/breakwater is a very different problem from
trying to get 
out of the bottom of a steep gully. 
 
A light Rob Roy or Swamp Yankee canoe, or a
Loonfeather, or a 
12' Bolger Sailing Pierogue, with an ultralight
backpacking load, 
are all good choices if you're planning a trip with
frequent 
nontrivial portages through rough terrain, such as
Algonquin Park 
or the Boundary Waters. Cartopper, Windsprint,
Gypsy, and the 
CLC trimaran all look like good choices for eating up
lots of 
river miles, but are a bit harder to portage. 
 
I'm trying to mull over which set of solutions makes
the most 
sense, but in my case, it's a harder problem because I
really do 
want my boat to be able to handle Algonquin Park and
the like. 
If I were just planning the downstream trip, I think
I'd optimize 
for comfort on the water and in camp, rather than
shoot for a 
one trip portage, since the portages are all short
enough. And 
there are some long open-water passages (Lake
Sakakeawa and the 
Fort Peck Reservoir), and once you reach the barge
locks, you're 
home free and don't have to portage any more. 
 
-- Sue -- 
(whatever you do, though, make sure that you have a
shallow draft!) 
 
-- 
Susan Davis <futabachan@...> 
 
</tt>

 



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<tt>
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- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
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- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
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______________________________________________________________________
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> The eror would be 200#! If you have to carry a boat,
> you are talking probably 4 trips on each portage, what
> a nightmare!

There are a lot of variables here, actually -- if you're using
a dolly or portage wheels, you can dolly that over sufficiently
flat terrain in a single trip. The ground would need to be
firm enough (there's a scene in _River Horse_ where _Nikawa_'s
trailer nearly gets stuck in the mud), your wheels would need to
be big and fat enough, and the portage would need to be short
enough, but you could do it. I *think* that those conditions
hold for most of the short portages around Missouri River dams,
but I'd hate to run into an exception to that with all that gear.
OTOH, the Missouri River portages would all be short enough that
you *could* make four trips if you had to.

The other question would be whether you really need all that
stuff with you. You probably don't, but at least some subset
of it might make for a more comfortable trip.

> I would consider just the standard open
> canoe, it has been used on every part of NA, and try
> to keep your pack as light as possible. Check out Ray
> Jardines stuff.

The question is: do you optimize for performance and comfort on
the water, or for easy portaging on the portage trail? And there
are portage trails and portage trails -- portaging around a dam
for less than a mile is a very different problem than portaging
20-40 miles across a mountain pass, portaging along a paved road
is a very different problem than portaging along a steep, narrow
trail with lots of blowdowns and overhanging branches, and
extracting your boat from an area with an access road and boat
ramp/breakwater is a very different problem from trying to get
out of the bottom of a steep gully.

A light Rob Roy or Swamp Yankee canoe, or a Loonfeather, or a
12' Bolger Sailing Pierogue, with an ultralight backpacking load,
are all good choices if you're planning a trip with frequent
nontrivial portages through rough terrain, such as Algonquin Park
or the Boundary Waters. Cartopper, Windsprint, Gypsy, and the
CLC trimaran all look like good choices for eating up lots of
river miles, but are a bit harder to portage.

I'm trying to mull over which set of solutions makes the most
sense, but in my case, it's a harder problem because I really do
want my boat to be able to handle Algonquin Park and the like.
If I were just planning the downstream trip, I think I'd optimize
for comfort on the water and in camp, rather than shoot for a
one trip portage, since the portages are all short enough. And
there are some long open-water passages (Lake Sakakeawa and the
Fort Peck Reservoir), and once you reach the barge locks, you're
home free and don't have to portage any more.

-- Sue --
(whatever you do, though, make sure that you have a shallow draft!)

--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>

Birdwatcher...

>
> Up stream from where I live in Great Falls, it is deep enough for any of
> these at least to Townsend (upstream yet from Helena); most of the
> spring and summer you could take a Micro or Oldshoe (with keels) from
> Three Forks where the Missouri forms without too much trouble.

Nothing over 12" draft! There are places in SD and NE where the river runs
very shallow. Sand bars and mud flats are common. After Gavins Point Dam
at Yankton, SD you can get navigate and get by with 5' foot draft but you
would have to get there first.

Jeff

>
> None of the folks making similar treks carried anything like "couple of
> hundred pounds of supplies"! That's more gear than any four people would

take

> with them for a two week canoe trip in the Boundary Waters or Ontario,

with

> no prospect for resupply. I'm not familiar with your route, but I would

doubt

> if you would ever be more than a couple of days away from some outpost of
> civilization where you could "forage" for food. Bishop, et al., all

travelled

> very, very light. You will be grateful for every pound left behind every

time

> you have to portage!

I'm not familiar with the route above lake Oahu in North Dakota but from
there on you have regular towns and marinas. I would doubt you would ever
be more than 40 miles from supplies. No rapids to worry about unless there
are a few further north of Oahu but that would be only about 10% of your
trip so I wouldn't add that as a significant requirement. If your including
tents, stoves, food, cloths, etc. I don't think your out of line with a
couple hundred pounds. If the boat can handle it, carry it. Life is easier
with an air mattress, good camp stove, and good rain gear, etc.

Your normal day will be spend drifting on the current steering around sand
bars. Once in the lakes, pop up the sail and enjoy the sights.

People tend to be drawn to the traveler and want to hear about your journey.
Help is always available at the Dams along the way. Most even have a marina
close that you could hitch a ride in a pickup for your gear to the next boat
ramp downstream.

Even a good sized sailing dingy with portage wheels makes sense. Your
biggest problem at least in my experience on the MO river will be the eddy
currents. A good skeg will make the difference between fighting the boat
and enjoying the sights.

Jeff

It was just a number that I grabbed out of thin air.
You are right I 
probably won't be more than a couple of days from
places that I can Forage 
with my credit card. :) But not knowing ANYTHING
about what I will need it 
seemed like a good number at the time. So I
really don't have any idea of 
what the REAL requirements are. 200 lbs. gives
me room for error. 
<

The eror would be 200#! If you have to carry a boat,
you are talking probably 4 trips on each portage, what
a nightmare! I would consider just the standard open
canoe, it has been used on every part of NA, and try
to keep your pack as light as possible. Check out Ray
Jardines stuff. He pack on 12# of gear for long
distance treaks, plus about 8# of supplies and water.
You don't have to go that far to getthe idea.

http://www.rayjardine.com

______________________________________________________________________
Games, Movies, Music & Sports!http://entertainment.yahoo.ca

Though he did it under power, a book that speaks to the nautical realities of this trip is

River Horse
William Least Heat-Moon

I got mine remaindered in hardback for about 8 bucks.

Mark

Howdy Curtis

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 8:40 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Helena Mt. to New Orleans

> I have floated from Virgelle (downstream from Fort Benton) to Fred
> Robinson Bridge (just up from Fort Peck Res.) and there aren't any
> rapids.

I was wondering about that stretch of river, since it is designated as a
wild river area.

>The only Falls are the Great Falls here, and it they are
> (almost) all dammed up, so a major portage is required.

Yup I knew about that one. :)

> So a bigger boat than a canoe or kayak is quite reasonable.

> Birdwatcher or Martha Jane,

Two more designs to look at.

with light weight

> Despite Jim Michalak's rowing of a Birdwatcher, I
> think it would be a sailing trip, not rowing.

I was hoping to do more sailing and drifting than rowing.

> It is possible, at least on Fort Peck Res. to get completely out of
> sight of land, so navigation is a consideration.

GPS, a compass, and a rudimentary knowledge of dead reckoning is all I have
now. :)

Thanks

See Ya

Have Fun

Bruce

http://www.cableone.net/bcanderson/

Howdy Paul

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: [bolger] Helena Mt. to New Orleans

> and while I loved it, to me the one truly demoralizing aspect was the
> inability to get the loaded kayak up and down the beach;

Another strike against the Kayaks. :(

> then inflate with the attached hose to provide emergency buoyancy. Then at

Makes sense no matter what boat I use THANKS.

> Also I think a folding boat cart of some
> sort would be mandatory for a solo trip like this; the bigger the wheels,
> the better

Being sort of a metal head, that is really the only part of this whole
adventure that I am qualified to do, so far :)

Thanks again!

See Ya

Have Fun

Bruce

http://www.cableone.net/bcanderson/

Howdy Bill

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Helena Mt. to New Orleans

> This is a pretty daunting set of requirements to be combined in one
boat!!!
> If you design such a vessel, I think you will be on your way to becoming a
> legend in your own time!

Nope I'm not a designer, I was hoping to use someone else's design, I'm just
the small brained Strong backed guy that wants to operate it. :)

> None of the folks making similar treks carried anything like "couple of
> hundred pounds of supplies"!

It was just a number that I grabbed out of thin air. You are right I
probably won't be more than a couple of days from places that I can Forage
with my credit card. :) But not knowing ANYTHING about what I will need it
seemed like a good number at the time. So I really don't have any idea of
what the REAL requirements are. 200 lbs. gives me room for error.

> I would definitely want some significant sailing capability - those
western
> reservoirs are BIG!

I have no problem using the forces of nature to power this boat. Like wind
and gravity. That's why I'm going from Helena to New Orleans, instead of
the other way around.

> A "stripper" based on the lines of a Chestnut Prospector would be about
1/2

I will check that boat out.

> winds were favorable, you might be able to use kites.

The winds will be there, I don't know if they will be favorable, so the Kite
idea is interesting.

> P.S. I think you are crazy! However, you will have to post more reports on
> the progress of your project before a definitive diagnosis will be
possible.

No Prob, I'm in Therapy, and writing reports on what I'm doing is part of
it. :P

See Ya

Have Fun

Bruce

http://www.cableone.net/bcanderson/

I haven't followed previous Missouri river threads to much, so I am not
sure where it is too shallow for a Windsprint, or even an Oldshoe, Micro
or Birdwatcher...

Up stream from where I live in Great Falls, it is deep enough for any of
these at least to Townsend (upstream yet from Helena); most of the
spring and summer you could take a Micro or Oldshoe (with keels) from
Three Forks where the Missouri forms without too much trouble. Wherever
shallows are there is usually a channel, or loose some of the draft by
getting out and walking it along.

I have floated from Virgelle (downstream from Fort Benton) to Fred
Robinson Bridge (just up from Fort Peck Res.) and there aren't any
rapids. The only Falls are the Great Falls here, and it they are
(almost) all dammed up, so a major portage is required.

So a bigger boat than a canoe or kayak is quite reasonable.

My idea was too use a Birdwatcher or Martha Jane, with light weight
trailer tires on the sides for bumpers. They would swing down for going
around dams (I don't know if it is still considered a "navigatible
river" this far upstream; I read in Nat'l Geo once long ago that they
had to move boaters around the dams without charge. I don't know if it
still the case.) and perhaps a fold down trailer hitch on the bow.

As for a motor, a couple of good batteries with a solar panel, and a
good high trust trolling motor should take care of the few times sail is
not sufficient. Despite Jim Michalak's rowing of a Birdwatcher, I
think it would be a sailing trip, not rowing. Smaller vessels, I don't
know. Some old (80+?) dude build a shack on a hull last year and headed
downstream; he did OK (got married, too!).

It is possible, at least on Fort Peck Res. to get completely out of
sight of land, so navigation is a consideration. Also, water is
available in few places along from Fort Benton to Fort Peck Dam...it may
be "fresh" water, but only because it hasn't been flushed by nearly as
many people this far upstream.
\
Curtis, under a winter storm watch, in /\/\onTana! {=-{>
--
oooOOOOOOOOOOO
o ____ ______________ __|--|__
Y_,_|[]| --+++++ | iba# 6157! | | [][] |
{|_|_|__|;|_____|;|____________|;|______|;
/oo--OO oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-in /\/\onTana!+-+-+-
New, Improved & Restored!!!
'da Family--->http://mypeoplepc.com/members/cbarrow
'da Bikes 'n Boat[s]--->http://ldwinger.tripod.com

> If it weren't for your self-imposed no-motor requirement

Um, I'm not sure that it's actually self-imposed -- motors are
forbidden on the Missouri between Fort Benton and the Fort Peck
Dam.

-- Sue --
(and on sections upstream of Helena, too, but he won't be
running those)

--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>

I think the open boat is good advice as long as it has enough flotation, and would stick
w/ oars or paddles, leaving sail as good chance auxiliary. Sleeping in the boat on such a
trip seems unavoidable.

Anyway, this is Philip Bolger's attempt to solve the packing problem-a 19' 6" kayak w/ a trunk.
Mark

>From Chebacco News:

http://www.chebacco.com/chebacco_news/ch244.jpg

rcushing@...
Bob has also recently prototyped Phil Bolger's sleek Cruising Kayak design - featured in
the October 3rd 1997 issue of 'Messing About in Boats'. It has a 'trunk' for storing a
substantial amount of camping gear.

Paul Lefebvre wrote:

> In a
> typical decked sea kayak you have to stuff some big things through some
> pretty small holes and then shove them way out of reach, it's uncomfortable
> to do right at the shoreline at those most buggy hours of the day, and takes
> way too long right when you're either eager to get on the water, or eager to
> get your tent up and dinner in progress. Open boats (like the Larsboat,
> recommended in this thread) are better, but you'll still wind up doing
> contortions from time to time, trying to get at that bag way up in the end.
>

In a message dated 5/6/02 9:52:49 AM Central Daylight Time,
bcanderson@...writes:

> So I was thinking what about a craft that I could row or paddle, and sail.
> Something that would carry me and a couple hundred pounds of supplies, be
> maneuverable enough to handle some moderate rapids, and light enough to
> portage with a wheeled cradle. I could sail it across the lakes, and row
> or
> paddle when there is no wind, and float when there is a current.
>

This is a pretty daunting set of requirements to be combined in one boat!!!
If you design such a vessel, I think you will be on your way to becoming a
legend in your own time!

None of the folks making similar treks carried anything like "couple of
hundred pounds of supplies"! That's more gear than any four people would take
with them for a two week canoe trip in the Boundary Waters or Ontario, with
no prospect for resupply. I'm not familiar with your route, but I would doubt
if you would ever be more than a couple of days away from some outpost of
civilization where you could "forage" for food. Bishop, et al., all travelled
very, very light. You will be grateful for every pound left behind every time
you have to portage!

I would definitely want some significant sailing capability - those western
reservoirs are BIG! Solo paddling a single paddle canoe against an adverse
wind is damned hard work for a lazy person like me. Young, macho
double-paddle kayakers may be less daunted. WoodenBoat vol. 22 has a nicely
illustrated article by Sam Manning showing a transportable spritsail rig he
devised to so it could be lashed on to a rental livery aluminum tandem canoe.
(The letters in vol. 23 predictably included some choice bits of vituperation
directed at the editor for including a feature that "featured" a "Tin" canoe.
Oh! The heresy!!!) A tandem "Canadian-style" canoe would seem to me the offer
the closest approximation to something that would meet your specified
parameters, but would not be a practical boat for solo paddling or for
running rapids solo. Manning's rig includes a pair of hefty outwales that
could probably serve to anchor oarlocks. I've never rigged a canoe for
rowing, but can't see any reason why one wouldn't row nicely, given adequate
spread between the oarlocks. In a purpose-built boat, Manning's rig could be
further simplified. There are a variety of kits and plans on the market for
plywood and stripper canoes of this type.

A "stripper" based on the lines of a Chestnut Prospector would be about 1/2
the weight of L.F.H.'s solo decked double paddle canoe and have at least 4X
the carrying capacity. It would not be anyone's choice for a solo boat
except, possibly, for the demanding duty that you envision. (I realize that
L.F.H.'s design could be built considerably lighter using modern materials -
but even for his day his design was ridiculously heavy - approx. 75# for a
14' or 15' solo boat, not counting soakage, if I recall correctly! I have a
17' 6" B.N. Morris canoe, vintage 1914, canvas covered, that weighs less than
40#. L.J.H. certainly designed some very nice yachts, but until someone
shows me otherwise, I think that he didn't know diddly squat about canoes.)

If you can really strip your load requirements down, a big kayak might become
practical. I don't have any experience with the type. I don't know of any
really practicable sailing scheme for such a boat. I think CLC may have an
design using outriggers and a windsurfer-type sail, but there would be no
place to store the paraphenalia when you have to paddle or run rapids. If
winds were favorable, you might be able to use kites. There are whole web
pages and books devoted to kite-sailing, but it is still a pretty esoteric
pastime and I'm not aware of any information that would be readily applicable
to using kites from a kayak. Pioneering this would be an opportunity for you
to become an "authority" in your retirement. I'm sure that MAIB would publish
your results! (You obviously are in desperate need of a challenge of some
sort to even contemplate such an arduous trip! Why not add this to your
agenda?)

If it weren't for your self-imposed no-motor requirement and the portage
requirements, I'd think that one of Michalak's low-powered cabin sharpies
would be a really nice boat to do this trip in. But if you are already going
to be humping a couple of hundred pounds of supplies over each portage, I
think you could strap a 5-10 hp OB on a pack frame and make one more trip,
provided that the portage would accomodate the boat. In Minnesota and Ontario
canoe country, if you can't carry it on your back, you usually can't portage
it (at least not solo). Conditions on the upper Missouri may differ.

Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN

P.S. I think you are crazy! However, you will have to post more reports on
the progress of your project before a definitive diagnosis will be possible.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How about "Three Years In a 12-foot boat" by Ladd. He
started in Seattle (sort of) and ended up in SA.

This project does seem like a bit of a jump from a few
weekends experience...

--- "Bruce C. Anderson" <bcanderson@...>
wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
Howdy 
 
I am a newbie to the list. The reason I joined,
is that I am thinking of 
doing something foolish. Traveling by water from
Helena Mt. to New Orleans 
La., SOLO in a non-motorized craft. Being
Retired, I have a lot more time 
than money. So it makes sense to me. :) 
 
I have almost no experience in watercraft. 20-30
hours in motor boats less 
than 15 ft. About the same amount of time
sailing a Sunfish. Paddled a 
canoe once, and that's about it. 
 
I would like your advice on the type of craft I should
use for this journey. 
I considered a Kayak, but thought that sitting in one
spot for 3700+ miles 
wouldn't be a lot of fun, and it has limited cargo
space. 
 
A canoe has adequate cargo space, but the Missouri has
quite a few dams, and 
as a result some very extensive reservoir. That
makes for quite a bit of 
still water paddling. Lake Sakakawea is 175
miles long by itself. And I 
have heard that solo canoes are a handful in the wind,
having lived in North 
Dakota I know that there will be quite a bit of wind
on this trip. 
 
So I was thinking what about a craft that I could row
or paddle, and sail. 
Something that would carry me and a couple hundred
pounds of supplies, be 
maneuverable enough to handle some moderate rapids,
and light enough to 
portage with a wheeled cradle. I could sail it
across the lakes, and row or 
paddle when there is no wind, and float when there is
a current. 
 
Any Ideas? :) 
 
Thanks 
 
See Ya 
 
Have Fun 
 
Bruce 
 
<a
href="http://www.cableone.net/bcanderson/">http://www.cableone.net/bcanderson/</a> 
. 
 
</tt>

 



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<tt>
Bolger rules!!! 
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- pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
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- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
snip all you like 
- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
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Moore has plans for a 13' over on his site:

http://www.bearmountainboats.com

--- brucehallman <brucehallman@...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
--- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck"
<boatbuilding@g...> wrote:

> I would seriously consider some type of sailing

canoe

> or sea kayak.

The classic form of this is the Rob Roy decked
canoe. 
 
L.F. Herreshoff writes eloquently that this is the
purest form 
of "cruising" in his book THE COMPLEAT
CRUISER. He even includes in 
the book a line drawing of the 3rd 'improved'
MacGreger Rob Roy 
canoe. I blew-up the lines and scaled off a
table of off-sets, and 
have been carrying it around in my pocket. One
could strip build a 
Rob Roy like the classic in 100 hours or less I
bet. 
 
L.F.H. writes of the Rob Roy... 
"There is also the everlasting thrill of
noiseless movement, fully as 
captivating as in sailing."..."Many people
consider single-handed 
cruisers odd or queer, but if one has a high
appreciation of 
landscape beauty, or an interest in nature, he is
never bored or 
lonely, and to me paddling down a river or stream
where the scene is 
always changing seems the most delightful form of
cruising"..."But, 
best of all, after a good day's paddle, is to turn in
on an air 
mattress stretched along the bottom of the
canoe. One is much more 
comfortable there than in other kinds of
camps..." 
 
 
 
</tt>

 



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Rob Roys are very small boats. They won't carry much
gear. Their earlier exponents apear to have been tiny
folk.

They also are capable of forming a wave, unlike a
Kayak (generalization as to type). Care should be
taken in sellecting a paddle, as the "uphill" struggle
with a poweful paddle may sooner or later blow out
your elbows.

--- "Bruce C. Anderson" <bcanderson@...>
wrote:

<HR>
<html><body>

<tt>
Howdy Bruce

----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 10:29 AM 
Subject: [bolger] Re: Helena Mt. to New Orleans 
 
 
> I blew-up the lines and scaled off a table
of off-sets, and 
> have been carrying it around in my pocket.
One could strip build a 
> Rob Roy like the classic in 100 hours or less I
bet. 
 
Could you send me copies of those drawings? I
forgot to mention that I 
would rather build the boat than purchase one. 
 
 
> lonely, and to me paddling down a river or stream
where the scene is 
> always changing seems the most delightful form of
cruising 
 
This is exactly what I am after :) I will check
out this book as well. 
THANKS!! 
 
See Ya 
 
Have Fun 
 
Bruce 
 
<a
href="http://www.cableone.net/bcanderson/">http://www.cableone.net/bcanderson/</a> 
 
</tt>

 



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--- In bolger@y..., "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@w...> wrote:

> the one truly demoralizing aspect was the
> inability to get the loaded kayak up and down the beach

Quoting from Herreshoff regarding the decked cruising canoe again:

"...MacGregor started most of it...he worked out innumerable light
gadgets to carry along in the canoe to make sleeping and cooking
practical...air mattress had the tube running crossways...so the
mattress could be rolled up into a very compact cylinder...He devised
convenient watertight bags for food and clothing, besides a folding
sheet metal stove. He worked out an apron to keep water out of the
cockpit and many other ingenious gadgets. And this time I speak of
was about 90 years ago." [145 years now]

"...Still I can tell you that one can be surprisingly snug and
comfortable in a decked canoe, for not only are you entirely
protected from drafts of air but you are insultated against the damp
ground. Also, if a heavy rain comes up in the right you can keep
perfectly dry if the cockpit cover is properly arranged. You see, in
a certain way the decked canoe becomes a sleeping bag, or waterproof
shell, after you get used to it, is extremely comfortable. In
camping with the regular open canoe, I grant you things are quite
different. In that case you sleep on the...cold damp ground."

> I am a newbie to the list. The reason I joined, is that I am
> thinking of doing something foolish. Traveling by water from
> Helena Mt. to New Orleans La., SOLO in a non-motorized craft.

I've been daydreaming of doing something similar for a while --
but the other way, from St. Louis upstream to Helena, as part of
a coast-to-coast voyage. If you dig through the archives here
and on the "DinghyCruising" group, some of the discussion of this
very topic from a couple of months ago ought to be still around.

At the moment, the leading candidate to fill my "portageable camp
cruiser" brief is the Loonfeather, by Thomson Smallcraft, which
is a Cartopper-like 10 1/2' oar auxiliary spritsail catboat dinghy
with a little cuddy for your gear, room to sleep two on board with
the sail as a tent, and an all-up weight of 45 lbs, suitable for
portaging. The oars even double as spars, to save weight. It
has a flat bottom and a shallow draft, but a deep daggerboard for
upwind performance in open water. If I build one, I'll probably
substitute a Cartopper-style kick-up centerboard and delete the
centerline keel in favor of a skeg, to optimize the boat for
shallow water.

Another possibility is the CLC Mill Creek 16.5, with their SailRig
II trimaran rig. I need a light paddling boat for canoe orienteering
events locally anyway, for which the CLC would be handy, and it's
probably the fastest of the options that I'm considering. However,
it might be a handful to try to portage solo (with two it'd be fine),
and the wide beam might be a problem in getting through narrow
chutes on the river.

I had originally thought to use a Windsprint, which could also
work, and would be very comfortable, but the hull has too much
rocker, giving a 6" draft. A Cartopper might be an alternative
to the Loonfeather, especially if you made the tent described
in BWAOM. Its chief disadvantage is its weight, necessitating
a dolly or portage wheels unless you were very weight-conscious
during construction. It's also an inch or two deeper than the
Loonfeather.

And if you're a real Nathaniel Bishop fan, both Glen-L and Jim
Michalak have sneakbox plans available. The Glen-L version features
the real spritsail rig, which is probably a bit more practical
than the lateen for cruising.

-- Sue --
(the Loonfeather might be my fill-in project as I wait for the
Insolent 60 plans)

--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>

Hi Bruce, I would also suggest you check out this guys site. His
canoes are very expensive, but they are the state of the art and can
give you some good ideas of designing a long distance solo boat. He
uses a batwing sail by Balogh (spelling?)

http://www.krugercanoe.com

Have fun! Nels

--- In bolger@y..., "Bruce C. Anderson" <bcanderson@c...> wrote:
> Howdy
>
> I am a newbie to the list. The reason I joined, is that I am
thinking of
> doing something foolish. Traveling by water from Helena Mt. to New
Orleans
> La., SOLO in a non-motorized craft. Being Retired, I have a lot
more time
> than money. So it makes sense to me. :)
>
> I have almost no experience in watercraft. 20-30 hours in motor
boats less
> than 15 ft. About the same amount of time sailing a Sunfish.
Paddled a
> canoe once, and that's about it.
>
> I would like your advice on the type of craft I should use for this
journey.
> I considered a Kayak, but thought that sitting in one spot for
3700+ miles
> wouldn't be a lot of fun, and it has limited cargo space.
>
> A canoe has adequate cargo space, but the Missouri has quite a few
dams, and
> as a result some very extensive reservoir. That makes for quite a
bit of
> still water paddling. Lake Sakakawea is 175 miles long by itself.
And I
> have heard that solo canoes are a handful in the wind, having lived
in North
> Dakota I know that there will be quite a bit of wind on this trip.
>
> So I was thinking what about a craft that I could row or paddle,
and sail.
> Something that would carry me and a couple hundred pounds of
supplies, be
> maneuverable enough to handle some moderate rapids, and light
enough to
> portage with a wheeled cradle. I could sail it across the lakes,
and row or
> paddle when there is no wind, and float when there is a current.
>
> Any Ideas? :)
>
> Thanks
>
> See Ya
>
> Have Fun
>
> Bruce
>
>http://www.cableone.net/bcanderson/
> .

--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
second attempt to get the word wrap right... :)

Rob Roy Canoe table of offsets 14' x 26" River Jordan version 75 lbs
Feet and hundredths
measured from diagram in L.F. Herreshoff book The Compleat Cruiser

14 13 12 10
8 6 4 2 1 0
Halfbreadths
gunwale 0.04 0.36 0.65 0.95 1.08
1.08 0.99 0.74 0.46 0.04
4" 0.26 0.55 0.88 1.08
1.08 0.89 0.52 0.27
2" 0.22 0.45 0.85 1.07
1.07 0.83 0.45 0.20
W.L. 0.13 0.36 0.80 1.01
0.98 0.77 0.35 0.12
-2" 0.23 0.62 0.82
0.81 0.58 0.18
rabbit 0.04 0.04 0.04 0.04 0.04
0.04 0.04 0.04 0.04 0.04

Heights from W.L.
C/L deck 0.92 0.90 0.89 0.84 0.81
0.85 0.94 1.00 1.04 1.12
gunwale 0.79 0.71 0.67 0.54
0.56 0.67 0.83 0.94
6" 0.27 -0.22 -0.28 -
0.29 -0.22 0.29
rabbit -0.16 -0.24 -0.30 -0.33 -
0.32 -0.29 -0.20 -0.10
shoe -0.21 -0.33 -0.44 -0.43 -
0.40 -0.37 -0.27 -0.17

Stem and Stern from station
13 and from
station 1
Deck 1.00 cockpit 1'-4" wide x 4'
long, from sta 9 to 6 1.00
8"
0.93
0.90
4"
0.84
0.77
W.L.
0.67
0.50

--- In bolger@y..., "Bruce C. Anderson" <bcanderson@c...> wrote:

> Could you send me copies of those drawings?
> This is exactly what I am after :)
> I will check out this book as well.

Probably best if you get the book for the line drawings.
ISBN 0 911378 67 7

Copyright questions come to mind...I wonder who owns the rights to
the lines of a 150 year old historical boat?

I consider my scaling of offsets from the Herreshoff diagrams to be a
study, academic in essence, and therefore 'fair use' under copyright
law.

The text below is no doubt "word wrapped" if you are viewing the
group on the WWW. Try clicking "messages" above and left, then
clicking "expand messages" at the bottom of the page to "unwrap" this
space delimited text.

================== Rob Roy Offset study below ====================
Rob Roy Canoe table of offsets 14' x 26" River Jordan version 75 lbs
Feet and hundredths
measured from diagram in L.F. Herreshoff book The Compleat Cruiser

14 13 12 10
8 6 4 2 1 0
Halfbreadths
gunwale 0.04 0.36 0.65 0.95 1.08
1.08 0.99 0.74 0.46 0.04
4" 0.26 0.55 0.88 1.08
1.08 0.89 0.52 0.27
2" 0.22 0.45 0.85 1.07
1.07 0.83 0.45 0.20
W.L. 0.13 0.36 0.80 1.01
0.98 0.77 0.35 0.12
-2" 0.23 0.62 0.82
0.81 0.58 0.18
rabbit 0.04 0.04 0.04 0.04 0.04
0.04 0.04 0.04 0.04 0.04

Heights from W.L.
C/L deck 0.92 0.90 0.89 0.84 0.81
0.85 0.94 1.00 1.04 1.12
gunwale 0.79 0.71 0.67 0.54
0.56 0.67 0.83 0.94
6" 0.27 -0.22 -0.28 -
0.29 -0.22 0.29
rabbit -0.16 -0.24 -0.30 -0.33 -
0.32 -0.29 -0.20 -0.10
shoe -0.21 -0.33 -0.44 -0.43 -
0.40 -0.37 -0.27 -0.17

Stem and Stern from station
13 and from
station 1
Deck 1.00 cockpit 1'-4" wide x 4'
long, from sta 9 to 6 1.00
8"
0.93
0.90
4"
0.84
0.77
W.L.
0.67
0.50

I've done some extensive trips in sea kayaks, under both paddle and sail,
and while I loved it, to me the one truly demoralizing aspect was the
inability to get the loaded kayak up and down the beach; this means packing
up most of your stuff every morning, and unpacking it every evening. In a
typical decked sea kayak you have to stuff some big things through some
pretty small holes and then shove them way out of reach, it's uncomfortable
to do right at the shoreline at those most buggy hours of the day, and takes
way too long right when you're either eager to get on the water, or eager to
get your tent up and dinner in progress. Open boats (like the Larsboat,
recommended in this thread) are better, but you'll still wind up doing
contortions from time to time, trying to get at that bag way up in the end.
A short boat-hook would be handy to have along for this kind of stuff. And
since you'll probably be re-supplying at some irregular interval; unless you
go for a very large-volume boat with lots of extra room, it could be hard to
fit that extra few days of supplies you just bought, an extra 2 gallons of
water, etc. into the very finite space of a decked kayak hull. So I'd
recommend something open, easy to toss some big dry-bags in and lash down,
maybe even big enough to stretch a tarp or boom tent and sleep on-board when
conditions allow or even mandate. And although I haven't done any
long-distance rowing, now that I'm getting to the age where I'm having more
back problems my sense is that as long as you don't mind looking at where
you've been instead of where you're going, you would not suffer the
stiffness from rowing that you get sitting in a kayak all day long for many
days on end - the rowing should keep you limber and fit all over once you're
in shape for it. If you do go for some sort of fully-decked kayak, get one
that does NOT have built-in bulkheads and watertight compartments - instead
get the cone-shaped combination stowage/flotation bags that you can chuck
all your stuff in, seal and slide into the bow and stern and tie in, and
then inflate with the attached hose to provide emergency bouyancy. Then at
night you can just deflate the bags, yank them both out and haul them up the
beach, then go back for the boat. Also I think a folding boat cart of some
sort would be mandatory for a solo trip like this; the bigger the wheels,
the better for rolling solo, though they get harder to stow on-board.
Inflatable tires weigh more but are nice on rocky beaches... discarded
hollow plastic barbeque wheels are noisy but lightweight, and free at any
town dump. Some sort of sail will definitely be very appreciated when the
wind's righ, which means having some sort of rudder as well, but the simpler
the better.

Happy Trails!

Paul Lefebvre

Howdy Bruce

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 10:29 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Helena Mt. to New Orleans

> I blew-up the lines and scaled off a table of off-sets, and
> have been carrying it around in my pocket. One could strip build a
> Rob Roy like the classic in 100 hours or less I bet.

Could you send me copies of those drawings? I forgot to mention that I
would rather build the boat than purchase one.

> lonely, and to me paddling down a river or stream where the scene is
> always changing seems the most delightful form of cruising

This is exactly what I am after :) I will check out this book as well.
THANKS!!

See Ya

Have Fun

Bruce

http://www.cableone.net/bcanderson/

--- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:

> I would seriously consider some type of sailing canoe
> or sea kayak.

The classic form of this is the Rob Roy decked canoe.

L.F. Herreshoff writes eloquently that this is the purest form
of "cruising" in his book THE COMPLEAT CRUISER. He even includes in
the book a line drawing of the 3rd 'improved' MacGreger Rob Roy
canoe. I blew-up the lines and scaled off a table of off-sets, and
have been carrying it around in my pocket. One could strip build a
Rob Roy like the classic in 100 hours or less I bet.

L.F.H. writes of the Rob Roy...
"There is also the everlasting thrill of noiseless movement, fully as
captivating as in sailing."..."Many people consider single-handed
cruisers odd or queer, but if one has a high appreciation of
landscape beauty, or an interest in nature, he is never bored or
lonely, and to me paddling down a river or stream where the scene is
always changing seems the most delightful form of cruising"..."But,
best of all, after a good day's paddle, is to turn in on an air
mattress stretched along the bottom of the canoe. One is much more
comfortable there than in other kinds of camps..."

I was born and raised around the Missouri and I've been down the Missouri
from Lake Oahe to Saint Lewis,MO. This is a great trip. I would seriously
consider some type of sailing canoe or sea kayak. Some of the lakes are
many miles wide and can run as much as 50 miles long. The prevailing winds
for most of your trip will be either be a nice broad reach or a down wind
run. Portages will be minimal and less than a mile at max. Usually just
walk up a earthen dam, cross the road and down the other side.

The currents in place are very fast with a lot of eddies so the longer the
boat the better. Maybe 18 feet or so. Use a foot controlled rudder and
have some type of skeg too.

Check out the "Larsboat" and "TriLars" at
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jim/michalak.htm.

This probably won't paddle well with these types of out riggers but will
give you an idea of the style I'm speaking about.

Best of luck and it would be a very senic trip, especially through the
Niobrara valley.

Jeff

--- In bolger@y..., "Bruce C. Anderson" <bcanderson@c...> wrote:

> I am thinking of doing something foolish.
> Traveling by water from Helena Mt. to New Orleans
> La., SOLO in a non-motorized craft.

I recommend first reading the books:

Nathaniel Bishop's FOUR MONTHS IN A SNEAKBOX

and

John MacGregor's A THOUSAND MILES IN THE ROB ROY CANOE

also the website...

http://www.anyboat.com/books/canoeing.htm

...summarizes a bunch of books by people that have made
similar 'historical' adventures like you envision.
I say go for it!!!

Howdy

I am a newbie to the list. The reason I joined, is that I am thinking of
doing something foolish. Traveling by water from Helena Mt. to New Orleans
La., SOLO in a non-motorized craft. Being Retired, I have a lot more time
than money. So it makes sense to me. :)

I have almost no experience in watercraft. 20-30 hours in motor boats less
than 15 ft. About the same amount of time sailing a Sunfish. Paddled a
canoe once, and that's about it.

I would like your advice on the type of craft I should use for this journey.
I considered a Kayak, but thought that sitting in one spot for 3700+ miles
wouldn't be a lot of fun, and it has limited cargo space.

A canoe has adequate cargo space, but the Missouri has quite a few dams, and
as a result some very extensive reservoir. That makes for quite a bit of
still water paddling. Lake Sakakawea is 175 miles long by itself. And I
have heard that solo canoes are a handful in the wind, having lived in North
Dakota I know that there will be quite a bit of wind on this trip.

So I was thinking what about a craft that I could row or paddle, and sail.
Something that would carry me and a couple hundred pounds of supplies, be
maneuverable enough to handle some moderate rapids, and light enough to
portage with a wheeled cradle. I could sail it across the lakes, and row or
paddle when there is no wind, and float when there is a current.

Any Ideas? :)

Thanks

See Ya

Have Fun

Bruce

http://www.cableone.net/bcanderson/
.